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Comments
Also agree with the fact that Volkswagen seems to actually have set an excellent basis for brand management going forward. Volkswagen itself is another company that (still) has a reputation for German engineering and a premium image, and yet they have staggered the other brands nicely. Of course, Skoda and Seat etc are irrelvantin North America.
Happy Holidays to all.
Lately, I've been disapointed with the direction MB, not BMW, is heading towards. Have any of you been to the LA Auto Show? Stop by the new 2005 CLS-Vision on display. I could have sworn it wasy designed by Honda or another Japanese company. The front: looks like a Q45 (which isn't repsectable at all in my opinion), and the rear: not typical of a german car. I really don't understand why so many people find the CLS to be more gorgeous than the new 645Ci (according to autospies, and other websites).
I think Mercedes-Benz should spend more time on what they already have, and try to beef up quality and design, rather than build so many new designs, and have them suffer from quality issues and complaints.
contrary to Audi, which in my opinion, has one of the best quality and design (even compared to Lexus). I was really impressed with the whole, intire line, partic. the new A8L. That baby is drop-dead gorgeous.
As usual, the LS430 ultra-lux brought a lot of people around it, and i overheard a couple of people who said the LS430 had better value than the S430/S500. But i don't want to get into that issue...
I'm really starting to get disapointed with Mercedes-Benz lately. They better shape up, because if they don't, i'm shipping out.
i_Drive.
2002 S430
approx. $15,000 worth of repairs and damages since 2002
gives me grief every day
1999 ML320
"Check-Engine" light for the past year; MB can't fix it
Rattling noises everywhere in the cabin
Both bumpers "fell" off during machine-car wash.
1998 ML320 "original batch"
too many to list; MB replaced it with new '99 ML320
And while the ML has an awful reputation, my wife's '99 ML320 (she gave up her BMW 3 series for it, which still amazes me) has not ever had one single issue. Just plain scheduled maintenance. It's been a darling. Knock on wood.
I've been on vacation for almost 2 weeks, I didn't even look at a computer or the net during that time (what a relief), so there is lots for me to catch up on. I'll be off to Detroit either this weekend or next, and from the internet buzz this year's show has topped the one last year, didn't think that would be possible.
From what I've seen so far, Ford's new 500 Sedan looks like a few of the cars we've discussed here, namely the LS430 (front end) and any Audi product (roofline). I guess the latter detail shouldn't be a shock, one of the car's designers used to work for Audi.
pablo_l,
This union might just work, if and only if the public takes to Chrysler's new products over the next year, if all these new models (something like 10-15) don't fly then the whole thing is done, and I expect DCX to become Daimler-Benz once again.
M
The '99 ML320 didn't have much problems until late last year. then the bugs came up. what amazed me the most was when the front and rear bumpers fell off during a normal wash at the gas station. that was really pathetic (not to mention when there was a driver of a black X5, along with about 10 other people laughing at me.)
The '98 ML? Don't even ask about it.
I really think the S-Class is getting long in the tooth, particularily after seeing the Audi, BMW, and lexus at the autoshow. i don't mind the interior so much, but i think mb could have done a little bit more for the '03 "refresh", like lexus did with the '04 LS430. the '05/'06 S-Class better look "radical" or else.
I had occasion to see a new S , and to me it looked much nicer with the small chrome stripes on the tail light. I thought of our own Merc 1, but feel Mercedes is overpriced on the S model.
tony
Ahh..the S-Class...a timeless classic.
M
By the way those posts on the 7 board are disturbing. Seems BMW really blew it with this 7 series. A bad after market, heavy depreciation and now quickly falling new sales. In NJ a 78K 7 series leases for almost the same as a $62k LS430. Wish I could figure out how. Either they are pushing losses to the future through the residuals or they've made a special expense reserve. i don't see any zero financing - a big NO-NO for any lux make so they aren't doing it that way.
clicking on the pic takes you to a picture gallery
Well, I reserve my ultimate opinion until I see one in person.
http://www.autonews.com/files/2004NAIAS/lexus/anpages/gs4301.htm
The moment everyone has been waiting for, the new GS. I won't say too much other than to say this is the reason why I don't get excited over Japanese concept cars, as they rarely make it to production un-altered. I had the new GS all planned out, as to how it would look, but it appears *so far* that all they did was warm over the current car. The front end, with it's grille down below the headlight line is like the concept, but the rear and sides are completely different and don't look nearly as good as the original concept. It appears Lexus even after all the talk about a new design language still doesn't know where to go. I do like the interior though, but I think if they really wanted to go after BMW they should have kept the I6 instead of switching to a V6. Anyway, I'll reserve final judgement until next week when I can see the car in person.
M
It appears that Audi is going to step to the major leagues with the new A8L 6.0 W12 by the end of the year, it will priced around 115K. Yikes! Double yikes because the Phaeton W12 (10hp less btw) is priced at 88K. On paper it makes the Audi version look like a tough sell. What does everyone think of the new grille design of the A8L 6.0 model? Car and Driver is reporting that a cheaper short wheelbase "A8" will make it here too for 2005. Audi sold over 4K A8s in 2003, a huge increase, but still about 1/5 of the sales leaders in the class.
Lexus' RX330 was clearly the inspiration for the Lincoln Aviator concept, looks pretty good.
The Aston-Martin DB9 Volante (convertible speak) is gorgeous, don't even need to be there in person so see that.
I so wish I could say the same for new 645Ci convertible. It and the regular 645Ci coupe will have to be examined in person, which isn't a good sign. I don't think I've ever seen a car so messed up by a single styling detail, a trunklid no less!!
Two sports cars of interest, the Ferrar 612S and Corvette. The Ferrari looks a little longish, just like the SLR, both have this look due to their engine placement, mid-front. The Vette looks a little derivative of several cars, Ferrari, Viper from the front, but the rest appears to be in order. Any of you luxury car owners eyeing a sports car????
Three new luxury or luxury priced trucks (or concepts) of interest: Jeep Rescue, Lincoln Mark LT and Infiniti QX56. I can't believe Lincoln would attempt this type of truck again, as the Blackwood flopped like the Edsel. The Jeep Rescue is the DCX answer to the Hummer. Not sure how I feel about it yet. The Infiniti might have too much of a Peterbuilt grille to it??
Another crossover, the Mercedes GST. Not sure about this yet either. It too lost something from concept to product, it looks too much like a van.
Though I think they're generally pretty clueless, they do have a hell of a photo gallery of the L.A. Autoshow, autospies that is. Of particular interest to the Cali show are the Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes CLS, Aston-Martin DB9 Coupe, Hummer HT3, and the OMG Porsche Carrera GT, they really do have some great photos of these cars. The Mercedes CLS, which I admit to feeling ill when I first saw it, looks a lot better, as does the Maserati Quattroporte. Thought I've seen the new Bentley Continental GT in person at last year's Detroit show, the new photos still don't help it any, as it still looks like a giant VW. I'll take an Arnage T please.
ljflx,
I was so busy thinking about the autoshows that I didn't even see your comments on the 7-Series. Yes my *used-to-be* second favorite luxury car brand has stumbled design wise with the 7, 6 and now possibly with the 6-Series. Its hard to convey on a mesg board how a lot of BMW fans (including me) feel about BMW's new styling/design direction. What I really don't like is that BMW's top guy simply says that people will just have to get used to the look and tech (meaning idrive). Typical German arrogance, which I can't stand at times.
On the other hand it seems that just as many people like the new designs, some of my most devoted BMW-loving friends find the new 5 and 7 to have such great "presence". I won't argue with that, question is whether or not thats good or bad. Either way they aren't "good looking" cars in the classic sense of the description, but everyone does notice them, so lets sell how the 5-Series sells in 2004.
M
Seriously I think something went wrong at Lexus HQ in the late stages here. Why did we get all that press about the LF-S and then get this thing? If it wasn't a press release and was a spy pix instead I would have said it was a touched up version of the current car with a BMW notch back at best or maybe a stretched Altima. The car is very disappointing - at least in picture form - much like the 5 and 7 series are as far as I'm concerned. Maybe in the metal it will look better but I doubt it. On the other hand I'm not one to doubt customer studies as I have lived in that industry in the past. So maybe they have market research that shows better than I know. But if so they didn't get it from me or anyone I know.
merc1 - C&D said the V12 big Audi would be $138k in Europe. Seems far too high. What's does an S600 go for in Europe?
You're the only one I know who may be able to get the facts straight on this GS fiasco and what happened to the LF-S. You, I and Syswei may need to go to Lexus HQ and straighten these people out before they blow the 2007 LS. Also, if they make the HPX look anything like the GS they should forget about building it. I'm glad to see merc1 has his share of disappointment with his favorite brand as well.
Interesting observations from the Detroit Auto Show press/industry previews. I actually attended the Washington DC Auto Show this last weekend and am planning on going to the Detroit Show the weekend of the 18th. I will also be going to the NYC show in April since it is just a quick train ride from my NYC/NJ apartment.
At first, I was puzzled by the new MY06 GS but the more I look at the pictures and read about the upgraded technology, AWD and euro-driving intentions the more interested I get. One thing that troubles me is that I expected the new GS to be a MY05 car not MY06. The official press information just says the car will be available in 2005 but does not say what month. A MY06 designation would seem to say it will in October 05 or at least the later half of the year. However, I am still not sure what they are doing with the final new GS exterior design.
As ljflx stated, this means that the new LS will not be until MY07 which I assume means either October 2006 or April 2006 at the earliest. I still am holding on to our LS and was hoping to replace it with the new LS in October 2005 (as a MY06 release).
My wife really liked the silver 2004 LS we saw at the Washington Show but I believe that it will look really dated when the MY07 LS comes out. However, I feel Lexus really did improve the looks of the MY04 LS with only minor exterior revision. Until we really spent some serious time looking at it in silver (the color my wife would want) I had only seem a few at a distance on the highway.
As for BMW, I share ljflx's and your observations. I have had BMW's over the years and really like the last generation 7 series. My bottom line is that BMW is not even on my list of consideration anymore. I just wish that I had purchased the last generation 750Li before they came out with the current 7 series abortion.
By the way, I travel to Switzerland for business and the BMW 7 series is having even more sales problems there then here and it use to basically be BMW's best per-capita market.
Since I have always purchased all of my cars/trucks I typically try to wait for the new completely revised model before making a new purchase. In the case of the new 7 series that proved to be a big mistake.
I did come very close to purchasing a MB S600 a few months ago but was put off by all of the horror stories I keep hearing about MB having a lot of trouble with their computerized electronics. And, of course, the S600 basically has all of them. I was also put off buy the fact that MB excluded the S600 from the special 2.9% financing deal.
One other observation from the Washington Show, my wife and I did like the looks and feel of the Audi A8 L but not the VW Phaeton. The VW just left us both cold except for the interior. Also, the Audi is about 800 lb lighter with the same engine and overall size.
As for your comment on the Lincoln pick-up, I could not agree more. What the hell does anyone want (yet alone need) a Lincoln or Cadillac pick-up. Give me a break! And, I am actually getting ready to buy a new Dodge Ram for my place in Texas.
I enjoy you guys feed back and opinions. Please keep it up.
Jim
In a nutshell, all of these new desgins are overweight, over-assisted and dynamically incompetent and unbalanced machines that need to be fixed by computer intervention. It is a brutal assessment, but nevertheless I think it true. They might be superbly comfortable transport appliances, but a pure driving environment they miserably fail to provide.
I think a smart luxury car vendor at this point in time would come in with a superbly crafted, but -other than ABS- utterly electronics-devoid car. Built to be light, engineered to be agile and competent without assistance. That would provide a huge and unique differentiator, and luxury buyers are borderline eccentric enough to ensure such a car would be a success. More of a private aircraft philosophy.
And while I love the idea of hybrids and their inherent efficiency, I'd love for at least *one* study to put the available torque to a slightly more rowdy use.
Are they dialing out the *fun* factor entirely out of the luxury car scene?
Well unless you're a certain person on the "News and Views" board I won't say (harp) too much negatively about a persons's fav brand's new debut when it doesn't meet expectations...it can happen with any make.....I'm trying to be as fair as possible, on this board that is. I will say that I'm going to wait until next week before making a final judgement on the car. The only thing that's sort of curious to me as to why its going to take so long for it to go on sale, they're saying Spring 2005, thats seems like a long time to me.
I'm not sure what the S600L costs in Europe, I'll have to look it up. Could it be that the price C&D quoted could be in Euros?? Speaking of Mercedes and Europe, there is a new SLK for 2005. The pics/stats are on the germancarfans site, and the car will be shown to the public in March at Geneva.
On the A8, only the W12 model is getting the new grille, the V8 model will keep the current grille/look.
"I'm glad to see merc1 has his share of disappointment with his favorite brand as well."
Well none of these brands are perfect, come to think of it Ferrari (Enzo), Porsche (Cayenne), Mercedes (CLK, Maybach), BMW (5,6(?)7) have all introduced something that wasn't a knockout like the rest of their cars. So no brand is perfect. The saving grace is the for Mercedes, Porsche, and Ferrari they all have some stunners left in their lineups, whereas BMW has only one left, the 3-Series, imo.
M
I just can't wait to get to Detroit. All this mere looking via the net is getting tiresome.
pablo_l,
You raise some good points, and I for one understand you perfectly, but the luxury crowd on the whole wants more and more features, you either provide them or be left behind. The biggest indication of this was when the most driver-biased car of the group, the 7-Series became a mobile computer in 2002. While it still drives right, the interface is oh so complicated. Your view is the majority on this (not disagree, just looking at the market prefers) and will soon be relagated to only sports cars.
M
Street racing and exercising automobile dynamics in public is dangerous and encourages law enforcement to step up the ante in controlling auto hormones.
At some point in time, somebody in a grossly overpowered super car that is going 2x the speed limit will kill someone else. In the ensuing litigation the prosectuor is going to ask the jury the question the Walter Mittys all dread, "If the speed limit in most places in our country is 65 - 70 mph, why in the world do manufacturers intentionally build automobiles that can go twice that fast? They must do it to encourage people to drive that fast and therefore share in the culpability for the death that was caused." If the jury agrees, the auto industry is going to get a curve ball they have deserved for a long time.
Legislation could go into place to have governors on the cars. It would be easy for example to integrate GPS location info with a speed limit data base. That way your speed limit would be controlled to be suitable to local conditions. The system could be set up allow over speed for passing for a reasonable period of time. This might even save a few car loads of teenagers from hitting trees at 80 mph.
M
the MB S 600 short wheelbase costs 127.000 Euros (can't find the L's prize).
Saw a A8 6.0L today on the road here in Ingolstadt and the grill looks amazing!!
M
Black Volkswagen Phaeton W12
Tectite '03/'04? Mercedes S500 4Matic
Black sapphire (not sure if it was just dirty black) 745Li.
At least it turned a two-hour drive into something exciting!
unfortunately, my 15-year son, who is also turning into a car freak, kept on dronning-on about how Audi is trying to enter the once-exclusive MB-BMW groupe with the 6.0 litre A8L V12. He thinks the A8L V8 is the best buy when compared to the MB S500, Lexus LS430, and BMW 745Li. I think he's going to be into luxury cars.
The Phaeton--- i really don't understand VW. Do they really think people are going to buy a $70,000 VW? Come on. I can get a Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7-series, Audi A8L, Lexus LS430 Ultra-Lux, the list continues. VW is entering dangerous waters here. The Phaeton i saw on I-5 was a W12 model. It was probably the owner/manager of the dealership, as it had a DLR plate. The rear-lights are also something. More like an alien; i think VW could have done a much better job with the rear. I always thought car companies need to work more on the rear (part. Lexus; RX, GS, GX...) because that's were most people see the car when on the road. And overall, not to be ignorant but i truly think the Phaeton is a big-Passat. The front headlights say it all. The driver and his family was heading towards the LA auto-show.
The 745Li, we saw about in Orange County. Passed the VW and us really quickly, but caught up to it in LA in the convention centre (outside). Why I am infatuated with the 7? The rear (so ingenious and creative), and the rear door. Another strange thing me and my son both pay extra-close attention about cars are door designs, and in my opinion, BMW best executed it in the 745Li and 760Li lwb models. the rear door is ABSOLUTELY gorgeous. I trully don't understand why soooooo many people find the design controversial. it might take some getting used to (i've got a close friend, and after about a month, I'm already used to iDrive). Granted, it's not exactly the most pleasing-to-the-eye design, like the S-Class, but it's something that should not be critized.
I'm convinced that the '04 S-Class is getting really long in the tooth, and needs to be redesigned soon. Although it's still a gorgeous car (i mean come one, a mercedes is a mercedes), but it could use some plastic surgery or a complete make-over. the 7-speed is a great progress, though, as i have tested it and it is truly amazing.
overall, in the car show, i determined that the two most popular cars were probably the BMW 645Ci and the LS430 Ultra-Lux. The BMW popularity surprised me, as while walking through the 7-series and 530i, i heard a lot of people saying stuff like "i hate this design." or "let's go look at lexus". but overall, it seemed as though people loved the 645ci, and so did i. i have become addicted to it (even more so than the 745Li). the interior is quite roomy, and quality was impressive.
The LS430, which greatly needed that refresh, is still a little to "boxy" and shared numerous characteristics with both the previous-generation S-Class (call it the cathedral-on-wheels) and the previous-generation CL-Class. The rear-seat affair was truly amazing, and I've got to give credit to the guys at Lexus; they did a damn good job at giving both the drivers and passengers lots of comfort.
I think lexus is trying to become more like a poor-man's Bently; luxurious, with a slight twist of power. Just look at the LS430 or SC430. They even bill their Sport Utility Vehicles "Luxury Utility Vehicles". Whereas Infiniti seems as though it's heading towards german BMW-land.
I don't know. I got mixed feelings from this car show.
iDrive
by the way, my son just told me an interesting comparison; he calls Apple Computers the equivalent of Infiniti; great (almost) looking cars (like the G35 coupe/FX45), but whether or not their insides are that good remain to be seen). intersting thought.
Make no mistake about it, Lexus' priority is luxury, but unlike Bentley, they just don't have the style to match. Bentley also is lot more sportier and every one of their cars have more than just a "twist" of power, as hp is one of their major selling points. Lexus is more like Rolls-Royce than Bentley, at least the Rolls before BMW took over. Even the new Rolls Phantom mentions driving and hp figures in the sales literature, whereas before concerning hp all they would say is that their cars had "adequate" power, and "driving" was never mentioned. I see where the LS430 is similar to a Rolls in principle.
M
M
I've driven many, many vehicles with electronic enhancements and usually you can disable these for certain purposes. Even disabled the cars are more stable and safer than the older cars without these things. The simple fact is people drive a lot. Some people drive safely and cautiously, some don't. Just about everyone, no matter what their typical driving habits are, has a "frantic moment" where they over/under compensate. These things reduce these instances and help the overall ride quality.
The problem is not with the gadgets and electronics, it's with the manufacturers. Most notably, Mercedes Benz, who is trying to be the Chevrolet of the "Status Marks". In their zeal to flood the market with over 26 different models in 9 classes, they have lost sight of what originally made them a "Status Mark" - exclusivity and vault-like reliability. In loosing that, they have failed by having poor quality materials and design while still raising prices on models with absolutely no changes, year to year.
Advancements are good, in most cases, and any thing that works to save lives and injuries should be regarded as "worth-while".
Remember - The first cars didn't have windshield wipers or headlights (electronics) yet the cars that started having them were not somehow deficient because they "needed" them.
My point has never been with something like ABS or other things that genuinely add safety. I stated that clearly.
It is the engineering by addition rather than by calculation. *more* gadgetry is better: traction control, stability control, electronic braking control, sat nav TV, in your pocket keys, etc etc - I don't *want* most of this stuff in a car. I think it detracts a lot from the driving experience - it makes driving utterly uneventful rather than something that brings a smile to your face even when you just drive around the corner to get groceries. One of the reasosn I chose the car I drive now for everyday driving is because I got tired of the remoteness of the experience: I want comfort, but I don't want to be utterly cocooned. I can't imagine my personal predilections represent such a negligible niche of the market.
mfullmer,
I'm curious to know which Mercedes-Benzes are of "poor design". Reliability wise they have definitely taken a hit, but "poor design"? The E, S, SL, CL, CLK all hit their market segments head on, only the ML is questionable, and maybe the C-Class if you're expecting a sporty 3-Series beater. Mercedes wasn't in a position to play the exclusive game anymore, they wouldn't have made it. Truth be told their bread and butter models C and E-Classes were never that "exclusive" as they've always sold in good numbers, especially the older Es and 190s. The "exclusive" ones are the AMGs, CL, and to a lesser degree the CLK and SL, unless you live in certain areas of the country in which I'm told these cars are more popular than Accords.
M