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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I shouldn't watch football games and post at the same time. I'm trying to figure out how I answered your post on this board. I thought I was on the LS board.

    Let me know what you do.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    Does anyone know whether any test data or actual driving reviews will come out on the Bentley Continental GT before they start arriving in the states?
  • tmjddstmjdds Member Posts: 22
    Got Jet Black w/Black Leather. 19" rims, luxury seats, conv. pkg and prm sound. Heated steering wheel, PDC and shades.

    I asked the salesman what the dealership does with the buybacks...he said they go to auction and are advertised as "Buybacks" so the new buyers know. He said some smaller private dealers will sell them without advising the new owners. He said most of the 2003 745's on the market are probably buybacks.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I'm sorry if this was already discussed when I was out of town (I don't think it was), but JD Power had an interesting study released in late December. It measured the retention rates of auto brands when customers of a new vehicle replace it with another new vehicle.

    Here were the top scores:

    1. Chevrolet (60.8%)
    2. Toyota (59.3%)
    3. Mercedes (58.7%)
    4. Ford (58.1%)
    5. Honda (55.5%)
    6. Lexus (54.3%)
    7. Hyundai (52.9%)
    8. Cadillac (50.8%)
    9. Subaru (50.2%)
    10. BMW (50.1%)
    11. Kia (49.9%)
    Industry average 49.3%

    Below average luxury brands:

    14. Jaguar (45.5%)
    16. Land Rover (44.3%)
    17. Audi (44.2%)
    20. Porsche (40.4%)
    24. Acura (36.6%)
    25. Infiniti (36.5%)
    30. Volvo (31.9%)
  • anthonycecilanthonycecil Member Posts: 68
    The Porsche replacement is a no brainer--The guy got married-- Tony
  • blockislandguyblockislandguy Member Posts: 336
    Anyone want to guess why three brands with supposedly bad reliability problems (Jag, LR, and Audi) have significantly higher retention than Volvo?? Caddy even has retention? ( I thought that when you bought a Caddy it was your last new car?) Chevy out ranks Toyota?? Kia is 10 points above Accura?? I think JD Power got himself into some Christmas eggnog when he wrote this December report.
  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Member Posts: 890
    No doubt Chevy and Ford's numbers are heavily influenced by their trucks, where buyers tend to be very loyal. I know a number of people who would own nothing but a Suburban; others have owned a long series of F150's.

    To the extent brand loyalty is influenced by reliability, I'm surprised by the low numbers for Acura and Infiniti, which are always rated towards the top by J.D. Power. Probably more a reflection of "near luxury" buyers wanting to move up to "true luxury" models as they can afford it - each brand has had relatively unattractive top end models to keep buyers in the fold. That and the fact that the near-luxury segment has become very competitive as of late, with buyers having many attractive alternatives from which to choose.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I just read an article in Automotive News stating that VW dealers were upset only 330 Phaeton W-12s were offered for sale in the U.S. (all black with ivory interiors). So it seems VW will make more of these cars for the U.S., but with a steep price increase. The car is going up from $83,515 to a whopping $95,215. This is puzzling considering the car is not selling well in the U.S. (or Europe either). VW sold 343 Phaetons in November and December (only 225 of 607 dealers sell the Phaeton). The article gives no explanation for the huge price increase.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Or better yet, using the exchange rate as an excuse to pad the bottom line/gouge the buying public?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Among other things, vwguild (VW salesguy) and some others have talked about the price increase over in Volkswagen Phaeton, in case anyone here is interested in that discussion.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Maybe the exchange rate is the cause as it is killing them. There was a story in the NY Times about how well hedged against the currency variations the Euro car makers were. VW was poorly hedged. MB was pretty well hedged and easily in the best position with a hedge factor in the 90's (having Chrysler helps them as well and is a natural hedge) and BMW was somewhere in the middle but lacks the further protection of owning a US make ala MB. The strength of the Euro is so high that you can actually buy a Porsche Carrera and a Cayenne in the US for the price of a Carrera in Europe. VW and Porsche were ony about 70% hedged if I remember right, so work the math on 30% of a Cayenne on each sale a Carrera makes. Ouch! But that is the profit hit they are taking on unit sales in the US due to the strength of the Euro. I don't know if that puts them in a loss position or not on their US unit sales but it certainly cuts heavily into the estimated profits they made for the financial community. They probably have some room to raise Phaeton prices (given they were low to begin with and the sales projections were also quite low) but I don't know if they can do so on anything else without taking a volume hit. Their treasurer must be in a heep of trouble.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Currency hedges, when put in place, are typically not for multi-year time horizons...as old hedges expire new ones will be at prevailing rates...and US pricing of European and Japanese imports will tend to go up (beyond inflation)...so anyone contemplating buying an import over the next couple years might want to think about purchasing sooner rather than later.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm anxiously awaiting your Detroit report.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'll shorten this from the News and View version which covers "everything". I spent two days total at the show, it's so much more than Chicago's autoshow.

    Acura has proven to me that they don't hold water to the Euro luxury brands past the TL class. The RL and NSX sat unloved with all the attention at the Acura display going to the TL and TSX. I heard one person say, "this is their new sports car", pointing to the NSX. I wanted to say, dude this "new" car is 15 years old!!!

     BMW has lost me. The 5-Series has an interior to match the exterior, a mess. Did anyone check where the door grab handles line up with the dash when the doors are closed? The only BMW I like now is the M3. I could barely do anything until I laid my eyes on the 6-Series. Rarely does a coupe look better than it's convertible counterpart, but this is the case with the 6. The convertible's top up look is truly ugly. The Coupe is no beauty either, but in a darker color it does *somewhat* hide that hideous trunk lid. What the hell is BMW on?

    Lexus' new GS...ah the subject of much infighting within the Lexus camp. Another not ugly, not much to look at design from Lexus. It has a hint of the new 5 in the front-fender treatment and its grille is pure Camry Solara, but overall it isn't as bad as some have said, including me. If anything it's just too derivative. Ironically autospies is saying the LF-S is the next IS, figures since they said it was the GS before. Does it look better than the E-Class (the car I see most compared to the GS), heck no it's not even close. Otherwise Lexus' display was just as unimpressive as their lineup of cars. One thing about Lexus that impressed even me, was their JDP awards display. My god they've won every award possible!

    Infiniti was all the rage except for the M and Q "45" models that sat mainly with their doors closed and no lookers. The QX56 has way too much grille, other than that it looks pretty good. Then again, I like the Nissan version also. The G35 Coupe (before I buy one) is missing one thing, a decent interior. So cheap it is.

    Audi.....always one of my favorites. One of my favorite sedans of all time, the current A6 is finally showing its age. It looks dated next to the A6 and A8, though it took 7 years to get to that point. The price has gone up a lot too, a loaded 2.7t "S line" model is 50K!! The new-look grille on the A8L 6.0 is gorgeous. It says power, which is what the A8L 6.0 has. The LeMans Quattro is another stunner. Not sure how accurate this is, but one of the reps said look for the production version at the 2006 NAIAS.

    Ferrari and Maserati are 1 for 2. The 612 Scagletti, while not ugly or as questionable as the Enzo was upon first glance, does have some issues. Two things, the long hood and the space over the front wheels, far too much space in the wheel wells. I'll have to wait and see this one in different colors because the side treatment is hidden in dark red paint of the one car they had on display. This is not a good sign, it should be love at first sight with Ferraris. Look for a facelifted 360 Modena at Geneva in March.

    The Maserati Quattroporte on the other hand looked just like I thought it would. Unique, and different, but a looker. It's interior is even better than the exterior. What a sensuous luxury car compared the S-Class, 7-Series, LS, and A8. Only the Jaguar XJ approaches this car in that respect. Major crowds at their combined displays, I mean can't even move around or get closer to the display without pushing type of crowd. So stylish the Italians are!

    Mercedes-Benz. Why wasn't the CLS flown in after the L.A. show was over? The GST should be hit with the crossover crowd.....it looks ok I guess, me no likem SUV/Crossover things much. The SLR was stunning, and smaller than I thought it would be. People stood around in a daze. I still say Mercedes' "best" car is the CL coupe, it felt custom made for me. The E55 and SL55 drew a lot of attention too. The SLK is done, little or no interest. Look for a Geneva debut for its replacement. The S-Class is in "classic" status now, still looking good, but you sense there is something new coming soon, and it is. The CLK, while not as hot as the previous generation (to me, the market says different) had a considerable line waiting to sit in them, especially the Cabrio models.

    Aston-Martin. Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous. The DB9 Volante had people mesmerized. I heard all kinds of conversation about this car. They could have picked a better color than that powerdery blue for the interior, but still a real looker. Ahh..the Vanquish a pit-bull on wheels. Can't say enough about how good these cars look. Same level of people as Ferrari/Maserati display. Thick.

    Bentley. The Continental GT is a hit with the press and show goers alike, but it looks like a giant VW or some type of shoe to me. They had one there and it was the ugliest blue you can imagine. One thing about the Conti though is that it makes the Arnage and Arnage RL look like they're from another era, of which they are. Not quite as crowded as the above brands, but still crowded.

    VW, yes VW they have some "high-end" products now. Surprise, surprise, people actually liked the Phaeton a lot, which I just my first TV commercial on, btw. Nobody seemed to be shocked at how much it costs. Did people looking at it know that its a relative of the A8 and is made by basically the same company? Seems they did. The Phaeton is also a comfortable car too, especially in the rear seat. Lots of buttons though. This biggest of VWs might have a chance here judging purely on the crowd reaction to it is any indication.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Notes:

    Mercedes had a Smart car there, lots people *trying* see inside it. I say trying because it's so small that if too many people get to close it looked like it would tip over.

    BMW's X3 will most likely be a runaway sales hit, but those black baby-buggy bumpers have go to go. The interior looks just like the Z4, and it doesn't fit the SAV imo.

    Out of all the cars I sat in, the Volvos had the best seats. The S60R and S60 T6 Premier to be exact. Pure comfort. I almost forgot, the Volvo S40. Pretty good, you can't tell it shares parts with a Ford.

    The cars that made the biggest impression on me were the Aston-Martin DB9 Volante (possibly the best looking car there), Mercedes SLR (functional styling like the Enzo), Rolls-Royce Phatom (in black its downright evil looking, like something a cartoon character would drive), Vauxhall VX (man what a roadster), VW Concept R (another roadster), Audi A8L 6.0 and lastly the VW Phaeton.

    Least impressive, Maybach, Lexus GS, Corvette......while they all might be great cars, all three lose points with me on styling.

    There you have it, Merc1 reporting......

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Merc 1... nicely done... thoroughly enjoyed reading your report as I do with all cogent commentary on style.

    One thing I would like to comment on is “I'll have to wait and see this one in different colors...” with regard to Enzo. I believe a well-designed car looks good in any color, even one’s least favorite. If you have to judge it by color, the car is compromised IMO.

    Your distaste for BMW has been no secret and I share your scorn. I’m not sure what will replace my “antique” 03 530 down the road, but if BMW doesn’t get its act together it will be out of my life. It never ceases to amaze me what they have done to their ENTIRE repertoire. And it’s not over... we will have to endure the new 3 and 1.

    “So stylish the Italians are!” Amen. In addition, there is this independent sports-car maker in Stuttgart who also has something going with minimalism. I anxiously await the arrival of 997 and surely hope Porsche can remain autonomous. I also like the SLR... has some art deco to it. In any event thank God for sports cars, without which I’d be aesthetically starved. Everything else seems to be getting uglier by the day.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes, I must be honest, that "I must see it different colors" line is really an excuse for an ugly car, most of the time. However this time I truly couldn't see how much of a scoup the car has on its sides because of the dark color and my viewing distance from it. The dark color also hides the length of the car. I suspect they did this intentionally, Ferrari ususally uses their signature red, not that dark red. But then again that bright red wouldn't look right on their "GT" car, as the 456 never wore red either. It always dressed in dark Blue or Black. I guess I need to see the car in silver, but yes I ninety-nine percent agree, a good looking car wears any *appropriate* color well. Meaning even an A8 can't wear Orange.

    The next few years will be very telling for BMW. I think that once the new got-to-have it factor wears off the 5 its sales too will drop, just like the 7-Series. If BMW uglifies the M3 I'm done with them......it is the only remaining good looking BMW to me. You could have never told me this would happen back in 2001.

    M
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    Merc1,

    As others have said your report on Detroit was great.

    I had planned on going but missed the Detroit show for the first time in three years or so. I try to go every year just to fight the wind and cold on Jefferson Avenue going into Cobo.

    When I saw two versions of the new BMW 5 Series at the DC Show and the rest of the BMW models, I also could not believe what has happen to BMW. I know I have said this before, but as a prior BMW owner I do not even consider them anymore. It is such a shame what has been done to one of the great automotive brands in just 3 years or so. If it wasn't for the Mini and their SUVs they would be in serious sales trouble.

    Will BMW's senior management ever wake-up?

    Thanks again.

    Jim
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Thanks. Great report. I also saw that wall of JD Power awards at the NY show last year and it is quite impressive - whether you like or dislike Lexus.

    Did Lexus show the HPX at this show and if so what did you think. I know the minivan is not your cup of tea but some of us are married with kids and need these type of vehicles. Also is BMW going anywhere in the GST/HPX segment or ignoring it altogether. God only knows what a Bangle designed minivan would look like. Do you really think BMW is going to let him wreck their vaunted 3-series? I think you're right - 5-series will do well for a brief period and fall like a rock. That's why I think Lexus is making such a big mistake with the next GS.

    Any hint at the show about the next gen S-class?

    I saw your less than stellar comments about the Maybach but did you happen to see the Rolls?

    Finally - given all the cars you saw - what is your dream car and what is your reality car?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Good report for those of us that couldn't go.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    Your September 2003 posting on the Bentley Continental GT discussion:

    "I've tried to like this car, but can't. It looks like a giant VW Bug or a shoe."

    I guess your view has not changed!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes, BMW is losing me as a fan big time, even the 3-Series isn't as desireable as it used to be with all the other unattractive models sharing floor space with it. Sound silly I know.

    I don't think BMW's management sees a problem, yet.

    ljflx,

    Yes Lexus did show the HPX, it looked smaller than I thought it would be. It's just a raised station wagon, to me. The new GS however should have had the HPX's front end and sides, it would look a lot better. Funny you should ask about BMW and the HPX/GST market. Autospies has a article clearly showing BMW's Chris Bangle looking over the GST, along with other high-level BMW execs. Britian's "CAR" magazine has an article about 2 crossovers that BMW is supposed to be planning. I'm sure they aren't going to ignore it, but they'll be hard pressed to get a crossover to stay true to the BMW "driving" theme.

    Yes the BMW 3-Series is next in line for the Bangle treatment. In his defense the new 6-Series wasn't designed by him, but Bangle is the head of BMW design so he takes all the flac. They'll probably tone it down for the 3-Series, but if that trunklid is part of the deal then forget about a good looking car.

    Yes (see post after report) I saw the Rolls, stunning in every way except for the front end treatment, it looks unfinished.

    "Finally - given all the cars you saw - what is your dream car and what is your reality car? "

    If I must pick one it would be the Aston-Martin DB9 Volante. Such a gorgeous car. Reality cars: Infiniti G35 Coupe (interior redo is rumored for 05'), Saab 9-3 Aero, Audi A4 3.0, and in the distance.....the revised 05' C-Class.

    lexus0622,

    I said that before huh....I guess I'm holding firm on that opinion of the car. Do you realize what a new Bentley is supposed to do to the high-end market? Its supposed to be the second coming, and this Continental GT just fell way short of that. It's so NOT attractive.

    I'm glad you guys liked the report. Anyone want to fly me to Geneva in March?

    M
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Yes the BMW 3-Series is next in line for the Bangle treatment. In his defense the new 6-Series wasn't designed by him, but Bangle is the head of BMW design so he takes all the flac."

    Very interesting, call me fickle; however, even though I detest the E60 and E65, I love the E63. I was actually wondering if Chris Bangle had finally gotten one right, then you let slip that it wasn't penned by him. Either way, I still like the E63, go figure.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ljflx, "Also is BMW going anywhere in the GST/HPX segment or ignoring it altogether. God only knows what a Bangle designed minivan would look like." I recall reading that BMW has no plans for a minivan. Their rationale is that it does not fit into the ultimate-driving-machine scheme of things. Curious how the SUV does. I love the marketing spin. They call their clientele knowledgeable technophiles, yet treat them like simpletons when dishing out the BS.

    merc1, you alluded to the M3 yesterday. I test drove an 03 M3 convertible with SMG last month in search for a third-car toy. It was appealing since my wife was interested in the 330cic and doesn’t like the manual tranny. Figured I could kill two birds—she’d get her 3, I’d get a rocket. Bottom line is that I didn’t care for the SMG. In both auto and manual modes the gear transitions were jolting, as if some car hit you in the rear with every shift. Also those 18-inch low-profile tires on top of that suspension are murder on NY metro roads—extremely rough ride. Handsome car though. 04 is the last opportunity for “old-world” 3-lovers... get ‘em while you can.

    I can’t wait to see what the next M5 will do for enthusiasts besides raising more ire. They’d better have 6-speed and an improved SMG. I hear the 04 SMG is improved, but if they forsake the conventional 6-speed, just add it to the list of complaints and watch the sales drop, especially with a hefty price increase. With a V-10, this baby has to be at or over $100K. This new age of power will be very interesting. I’d like to know what enthusiasts are going to do with all of this muscle besides feeding their egos and swilling martinis as they admire their garage queens. I don't think BMW could give a rat's butt about M5 though. It seems platform diversity is at the core of their marketing strategy, and I believe each model will suffer at the expense of such strategy as attention per model becomes diluted.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I too have wondered just how much sillier this horsepower race it going to get. I am currently driving an E39 530i with a 5-Speed, and while I would have liked a little more power every now and then, I don't think I have ever really needed any more power. Now I have fallen in love with the E63 6-Series in 645Ci guise with a 6-Speed (three pedal variety). Assuming that I do in fact find a 645Ci in my garage in another year or so, I suspect that I will probably still occasionally want some more power. Ditto if I ever pop for an "M" car. Can you ever really have enough?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The minivan will fit into their "ultimate driving machime" culture the moment MB and Lexus make it start to be a hit. Ultimately the cash book is the determining factor of everything. Is there any other reason why BMW and then Porsche built suv's.

    merc1 - agree on the GS comment re the HPX. That is where Lexus missed it in my opinion. Also - I think the G35 is a great looking car but I have never paid attention to its interior. It would be funny though to see you in another Japanese car given your German automobile patronage. But I guess the G35 could easily have been a German car.

    I have now seen both the the Maybach and Rolls on the road and have concluded the Rolls puts the Maybach away. But I would expect Darth Vader - when he was a bad guy - to step out of the back of a Black Rolls. It has that type of mystique.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ljflx, “The minivan will fit into their "ultimate driving machime" culture the moment MB and Lexus make it start to be a hit. Ultimately the cash book is the determining factor of everything. Is there any other reason why BMW and then Porsche built suv's.” Good point. But don’t hold your breath with BMW and minivans—it ain’t happening in the near future.

    Shipo, with regard to power “Can you ever really have enough?” I hear you… good question. As a matter of fact it would make an excellent thread. I will answer it this way. I know power provides a lot of "utility" within the realm of legal speed limits such as passing etc., but I also parse it another way. I guess if I ever see flashing lights in my rear-view mirror in the heat of a passionate moment, indeed, I will have had enough! ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yep it's true, he didn't pen the 6-Series, but he still had to sign off on it I'm sure. His previous work on the 7 and 5 probably influenced the guy who did the 6 (obviously). I'll have to find the article with the name of the 6-Series' designer.

    designman,

    Well I haven't driven the current generation M3 (though I was "this" close to doing so), but from all I've read, its the ultimate in sport and it never lets you forget it. The next M5 is going to inhale the entire segment, including the ridiculously fast E55 AMG. A V10 sounds so good to me, but the car's styling is likely to be a sticking point for most buyers. I don't think it will cost over 100K, but I'd bet on 90K with that engine and drivetrain, it's basically race car material/spec. Mercedes will no doubt tweak the E55 (could drop the SLR's engine in, its the same engine basically) and there will be a new Audi RS6 for 2006 or so.

    ljflx,

    When you get the chance take a look at the G35's interior, specificallly the Coupe, it is no where near being worthy of the exterior and performance this car has. Now a re-do is rumored for 2005 delaying things further. Japanese/German cars: I've always had a soft spot for Acura in particular, but the exterior of the TL is just too much of a compromise, and the G35 Coupe is the only other Japanese car in this segment that I truly like, but it's interior is an issue. I got it! Give the G35 an Acura quality interior, problem solved! The German brands are my favorites, but in my price range I'm not crazy about the C230 Sedan (interior and engine) and I don't want a 3-Series, so only the A4 qualifies. Finally they've painted the entire bottom of the A4! Now if I were shopping at the E/5/A6 level or higher nothing from Japan would even be considered.

    I agree, stylewise the Phantom does beat the Maybach, but I'm not crazy out the old-style interior of the Rolls, though it is of the highest quality. With the Rolls you simply know what it is from the minute you see one, the Maybach looks too much like S-Class ran into a Lincoln. It's not an ugly car, just not 300K+ distinctive.

    M
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    I read somewhere that the Bugatti Veyron will make its US debut in April.

    The Veyron is priced at $1.2 million, has a top speed of 256 mph and can go from 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. This rocket is powered by a 1001 horsepower W-16 engine. This is what I call the ultimate luxury sports car and the grandest display of conspicuous consumption.

    Merc1 was the Veyron displayed at the Detroit auto show? And speaking of the Detroit show, Autoweek,(?) the PBS TV auto show, will devote next week’s program to the Detroit Auto show.

    Enjoy!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Merc1 - I don't know if this car makes it or not. It's reviewed pretty in-depth in todays NY Times and while the review isn't bad, it isn't overly impressive either. Overall it seems like a good car but VW missed on some basic non-automootive conveniences like cup holders, the CD player and the nav system pretty badly per the reviewer. MB can blow these things (not that they do) and still hit a homer because of their image and well established brand. VW can't. It seems that leases for this car are already heavily subsidized by VW and can be gotten at $697 per month in some areas. I know people who wish they could get $8-10k cheaper LS 430's and E-500's at that price. Heck I bet your hard pressed to get an E-320 at that price. I know my $51K GX is more expensive than that as well.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Nope, no Bugatti or Lotus. VW has found a money pit with that car, it's overbudget and way behind schedule. The car's outrageous engine and 7-speed SMG/F1 transmission are rumored to be the problem.

    ljflx,

    Well I've come to the like the Phaeton a good little bit, but I didn't know that massive center console didn't contain a CD player, and I didn't realize that on the A8 either until a few weeks ago. Same thing with Mercedes' CLK and C-Class, still no in-dash CD, stubborness.

    I think VW should import a short wheelbase Phaeton and price it around 55K, right on top of the E500/545i/A6 4.2 etc, and keep the lwb model where it is. The car does offer value. I priced one at vw.com and came up with 76K for everything I would want in such a car, way below the S430 4Matic, 745Li, but right about even with a A8L, which begs the question "why" compared to the A8. The 7-Series, LS, and XJ don't have awd, the do-it-all S-Class does, but at a much higher price. The Phaeton W12 is a relative bargain compared the S600 and 760Li, but I predict they'll be precious few buyers at this level (95K) for a VW.

    Dare I say it, but VW is taking the 1990 Lexus LS400 route of underpricing the car to get some market share. If the car is a hit I doubt those leases will remain that cheap, but you're the leasing expert, not me.

    The dealership experience and VW's reliability are the flies in the buttermilk.

     Audi's dealerships are brand new in Chicago, all except one on the near north side of Chicago (Fletcher Jones), VW's by comparison mostly suck big time, but some that carry the Phaeton are new and/or remodeled. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't a compelling reason to pick this car over the Audi if you're a VW/Audi fan. There there are the LS430 and Jaguar XJ8, which cost less in most cases.

    Overall I'm pulling for the car and await the sales numbers each month. BTW, there is a pretty good discussion about the Phaeton on the Phaeton board, complete with a VW represenative.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The difference between the Lexus approach and the VW approach is that Lexus allowed the car to be as cheap as $35-36k and you could add your options. But they wouldn't let the car cross around a $42k MSRP (I'm doing this from memory so I may be a bit off vs, actual prices back then) Most of the initial LS400's went in the 38-40k range which was a great bargain. Then of course they pushed the prices up once the car was successful. They never discounted heavily off sticker to get the car moving. This is like budgeting. Better to pick the number you can make and meet or overachieve it rather than put it up high and come down with each quarterly estimate. Of course you have to be realistic about that number you can make. In the lux arena the tendency is to think that something is really wrong when you see something too heavily discounted. Remember - at this stage the perception that something is wrong to a buyer can easily be more important than the reality that the Phaeton is or may be a great car.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    There are several good articles in this week's edition of Automotive News. However, since I get an online version via a database I only have the headlines and will not have access to the articles until later this week. Perhaps somebody here has read these stories and can fill us in:

    1. Boss puts 'buzz' on U.S. luxury leader's to-do list. Lexus will redesign car line by 2007, add performance unit. How high is high enough? How big is too big? Those are the questions facing Lexus Division, which won the best-selling luxury brand title for the fourth straight year in 2003.

    2. Acura plays catch-up with awd, 300hp. Acura this fall will equip its flagship RL sedan with all-wheel drive and a 300-hp V-6 engine to challenge luxury rivals who offer rear-drive and V-8s, dealers and analysts say. A hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain also could be part of the package.

    3. Cadillac will build ultraluxury sedan. Cadillac has confirmed it will build an ultraluxury sedan, but don't expect to see the car until late in the decade.

    4. Escalade to get bigger engine. Cadillac extends high-performance 'V' strategy to big SUV. The Cadillac Escalade luxury SUV will muscle into the fast lane with a V-10 or V-12 engine, possible as early as the 2006 model year.
  • slicker_37219slicker_37219 Member Posts: 2
    Okay folks I have been a silent observer of these forums up until now, but I have to raise a question to the expert power posters here:

    I am in the market for a new/used high end luxury sedan.

    I thought I was sold on the MB S500, however after reading these forums I am a bit hesitant now.

    I originally thought I was going to get the BMW 745Li, but now the iDrive system and the horrible press that it has received has caused me some serious concerns related to the car's overall reliability.

    I am not a person who turns cars every 3 years. I like to buy one car(for cash, not lease) every 8-10 years.

    My biggest concerns in order are:
    1.) reliability
    2.) durability
    3.) price
    4.) ease of use
    5.) aesthetics
    6.) fun to drive

    I know it is hard to compare apples to apples with the MB S500 and the BMW 745Li vs. the Lexus 430 given the price difference but try to come up with some comparable data outside of price.

    I would also like to hear from prospective owners on dealerships that they found easy to work with, as well as those that offered competitive pricing.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Actually it is pretty easy to compare the 7, S and LS430. They are different on price but if you load up the LS430 then you are within $2-3k of an S430 with minor options and $5-6k of an S430 normally optioned. From your priority list the LS430 is likely the car for you and the S-class is second. What you can't compare either a 7 series or the LS430 to is the over the top S55amg. But otherwise the cars are very comparable.

    MB dealers - seemed fine to me when I shopped in NJ in 2001 but I'd go with an exclusive MB dealer and not one that shares a location with other car models. I shopped at a combo MB/Honda (one building, two showrooms) dealership and an MB exclusive dealership and preferred the latter. Every Lexus dealership I've dealt with in the NY/NJ area pampered you and treated you like royalty. I can't say anything about MB - other than comment on sales since I didn't buy and never dealt with the service dept. At Lexus you always get an RX or ES as a loaner in my experience. At the MB exclusive dealership I would have gotten a C-class and at the combo guy I would have gotten a car from Enterprise. Lastly - I didn't feel MB or Lexus dealers exerted any pressure on the sale. It was always your choice and the dealers praised their cars and the cars of the competing brands. But I was shopping new, not pre-owned.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    No question about it. The Lexus is the one for you the way you described your priority. If I could afford any of these cars ( I can't) the LS430 would be my first choice.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Slicker,

    Interesting post. I'd say the LS430 is the car for you. Like you, I pay Cash and don't buy often. I have a relatively trouble free 92 LS400 (Until Recently, long story) and purchased a 2002 LS430 in Sept of 2002. Both Lexus cars have been extremely reliable and never have left me stranded. The controls are easy to understand and properly placed. Operating the Navigation System doesn't require a Ph.D. I found the Lexus Console the most practically designed of the bunch.
      As for durability. The 92 LS has held up well. I've had minor issues with rattles due to some $0.10 screw missing, and a burnt out tail light at 11 years. That's about it. Of course ALL of these cars require you to follow the maintenance schedule. I've spent around $3,500 in my 12 years of ownership. I could have saved some money by sending the car to independent mechanics, but it's only seen Lexus dealers only.

    Where does the Lexus lose? Aesthetics and the fun to drive category. With the exception of the first LS, the latest Lexus offerings are quite bland in design. Every new LS design seems to really make the last model look very outdated. Holding on to my LS430 for 12 years like my LS400 probably won't be possible due to this.

    Their aesthetic designs age much faster than MB, due in part to their lack of originality..As for BMW, I think you've heard all the comments about the car being "Bangled." As for "Fun to Drive" the Germans have the edge. The LS430 is very comfortable to drive, and has great straight line acceleration numbers, but the German cars are far more responsive and nimble.

    Finally, as for Dealers, I've always found the Lexus dealers (MA) a pleasure to work with. They've handled the extensive post accident repairs on my 1992 LS very well. The Loaner cars are always new, and the sales/service staff very professional. Everything is top notch.

    My opinion is that the German cars offer a little more spice, but overall the Lexus Ownership experience cannot be beat.

    Hope this helps,
    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I agree with the others, the LS wins your first 4 priorities, as I think even MB and BMW fans would admit.
  • slicker_37219slicker_37219 Member Posts: 2
    I guess my age and a couple other details might help the ongoing recommendations.

    By the way, thanks for all your great posts. I appreciate hearing your candid feedback.

    I am 31, married with 2 kids. This is why I am looking at a full size sedan.

    One other thing I have heard is that Lexus cars in general are referred to as a "poor man's Mercedes". Obviously everyone is going to have their own personal bias, but just wanted to verify that this specific perception is as real where I live as it is in your neck of the woods. (I don't think this point will play a huge factor in my decision, but for some reason this bias keeps coming up).

    As an aside, I have test driven the BMW 745Li, but I haven't yet test driven the MB S500 or the Lexus LS430. Sounds by most of the posts so far that I should call my Lexus dealer first before I pick up the phone to my MB dealer.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Everyone I know that has an LS430 can afford an S-600 if they wanted. Some MB lover somewhere started that rumor. There are also MB S500's and SL's in my area that sit on driveways of homes that are half the price of mine. To each his own on how people spend their money.
  • sysadbsysadb Member Posts: 83
    You might want to look at the Q45 also, as it meets your most important criteria.

    ljflx, you are correct about the original LS400 being priced "al-a-carte". The 90 model had a base price of $35k, and options such as leather and sunroof were optional. You won't find too many of these cloth-seat examples around, though...

    DB
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I know. Even in 95 when I took my first LS400 the sunroof and other goodies were still optional. I never saw an LS400 without a sunroof and I never saw one with cloth seats in the pre 95 era. They really should just make the premium edition be the base car and put the right starting MSRP.
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    I subscribe to Automotive News and after reading your post I looked at this weeks Auto News issue on the Web. Here are some public links and info extracted from my subscription issue that were provided. The public links from AutoWeek (the Automotive News sister publication) have almost the exact language as the commensurate article in Automotive News.

    1. Here is some of the key information from the 2007 Lexus article you mention -

    "How high is high enough? How big is too big?"

    "Those are the questions facing Lexus Division, which won the best-selling luxury brand title for the fourth straight year in 2003."

    "But Denny Clements, Lexus general manager, says the brand has fallen into a predictable rhythm - and he wants to change that."

    "We launch a car, then have a minor change after three years, and then a redesign two years after that," Clements said during an interview at the Detroit auto show."

    "Meanwhile, the Europeans have new product news and variations coming every year, and they're always on magazine covers. Lexus needs to be like that. Lexus needs to have something always going on. It needs to have that buzz."

    "Clements said Lexus and parent Toyota Motor Corp. have set this stir-things-up agenda for the next few years:

    - A new distinct design specific to Lexus, to be seen first in the 2005 GS 430 and evolving from there. (Note: the article says a MY05 GS not MY06 which makes more sense like merc1 said a few days ago.)

    - A redesign of each car line by spring 2007.

    - All-wheel drive availability with the redesigns.

    - The addition of a flagship above the LS 430.

    - The creation of a factory performance division, akin to Mercedes-Benz's AMG."

    "After spending the last several years bulking up in SUVs, Lexus is returning to its core strength: luxury cars. The next-generation GS 430 and GS 300 sport sedans, which will arrive in early 2005, will be followed by the replacements for the IS 300, ES 330 and LS 430, all arriving by spring 2007."

    Very interesting, IMO.

    2. Here is the Acura RL article on the AutoWeek Web site on the new RL - http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - - - - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01990871

    3. Here is a link from AutoWeek (the Automotive News sister pub) on the ultra-luxury Cadillac that I believe we have basically seen before - http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=00165382

    4. ON the Cadillac SUV engine initial statement from the article it goes on the say -

    "The move is in keeping with General Motors' plans to create a series of exclusive high-performance cars and SUVs for Cadillac called the V Series. The first of those models, the CTS-V sports sedan, is in showrooms. The CTS-V is powered by a V-8 derived from the engine used in the Chevrolet Corvette."

    "You will find Cadillacs running around with higher-output V-8s, running around with V-10s (and) V-12s," Stephens says, "and you will find even one variant with even more cylinders."

    Let me know if you want more info and I will e-mail it to you.

    Jim
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well thats what I basically meant, they're pricing the Phaeton below its main rival from Germany, not the actual dollar amount. Nobody can sell a car like a Phaeton or LS for 35K anymore, but for 76K pretty loaded/awd the Phaeton undercuts VW's main rival the S-Class by a huge amount. I know the numbers aren't the same when Lexus was willing to take a loss those first few years, VW isn't (and probably can't) do that.

    In your other post you say that a Mercedes "lover" originally stated that a Lexus is a poor mans Mercedes. It's no rumor, nor does it matter who stated it, it's said because Lexus keeps making their flagship (best premier etc) car in the shadow of Mercedes' S-Class, hence the distinction. It will be denied by some until the end of time, but the LS' whole reason for being is the S-Class. No other cars in this class look alike and pattern themselves after each other like the LS does the S-Class. Lexus and only Lexus keeps imitating their nearest competitor in just about every way. BMW, Jaguar, Audi and now VW all have cars in this class, but they're very different from one another.

    I know you (a LSx2 owner) and your circle can afford a S600 with no sweat, but the *average* LS430 buyer can't, especially if someone is paying cash. Doesn't the average LS sell for about 60-63k? The S600 is double that. Nothing is etched in stone here, I'm just speaking in general. The "poor man's Mercedes" saying probably came up too when looking at the price spread between the two cars, one starts at 55K and goes to 72K, the other starts at 73K and goes to 125K, thats a huge difference.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I must say I find Lexus' plans impressive on paper, but if the GS is any indication then I'm not so sure. The LF-S to GS was sort of a letdown. The LF-S is supposed to be the next IS, per autospies (I know right).

    I also read where Lexus wants to sell 350K cars a year in the U.S. That would be some feat, every dealer would be able to use money to keep their fireplaces lit. Lexus has what 200 dealers, Mercedes around 300 and Cadillac has over 1200. Lexus can start printing their own money if they push 350K units out of such a small dealership body. This may be possible if the next IS has a sedan/coupe/convertible/wagon lineup like it's target 3-Series. The HPX would have to take off also. I'm not convinced the next GS will be all that more popular than the current car.

    Thought I'm not so sure if the GS lineup is done just yet. They've released some detailed info on the next GS300, but I don't think the GS430 is set in stone, I can't see them NOT increasing the horsepower on the V8 GS. It could be possible that they haven't said anything yet because they don't want the current LS430 to be affected. I mean spring 2005 is quite a ways away. I also can't see them not offering awd on the V8 model, I mean Mercedes and Audi (to a lesser degree) sell a good number of awd V8 cars in snowy places where rwd is too big of a pain. Last summer when visiting Minnesota, every Mercedes I saw was a 4Matic, I mean every single one. I'm sure Florida is quite different and I've never seen a 4Matic Benz when I visit Texas so awd seems to make a difference depending on location.

    Cadillac will have to put up or shut up in my book. The XLR and CTS are not the world beaters Lutz promised. The XLR while competitive, at the end of the day is still a few rungs below the SL and the CTS hasn't come close to beating the 3 or 5-Series. The V-Series cars will be good for image and those who can afford them, but what Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti for that matter needs is a attention grabbing flagship car. The new STS *so far* doesn't look like anything the E, or 5-Series should worry about. The next RL if a hybrid could be that car for Acura. The next Infiniti Q45 could be a few years off since the current model just came out for 2002.

    M
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    I enjoyed reading these posts. I thought Merc1's comments were right on. I've owned MB, BMWs and Lexus. The S600 is not in my price range. The LS ultra is $70K and has more features than the S500 at $80K. I've warranty problems with both MB and BMW, but never with the LS. The Lexus experience is real. There is no going back.

    Yes, MB has better styling, but only on the outside. Nothing beats the interior of an LS and that's what I see the most of. Also, the 04 LS has greatly improved the bland exterior problem.

    LS is a poor man's MB. Yeah, I've heard that said, but not by those who have really studied the cars and owned them. I don't think anyone has ever thought I bought my LS because I could not afford the S. I've also heard MB is for those seeking image over value.

    Slicer_3729: Everyone agrees, the LS easily is the winner in your first 4 categories, and the interior wins for your 5th. I equate fun to drive with smooth and quiet, so for me it wins that, too.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I didn't mean to imply that everyone who buys an LS430 can buy an S-600. But I'd bet a very high percentage can swing an S-430 and and many of that group could get an S-500. There are plenty of people that reach high for the cars in this grouping and the group below. It's really a function of your decisions in life. In my town I'll see S-class and LS430 cars on driveways of homes that range from $500k to $5mln. You can easily see who could afford anything they want. Personally I'd finalize a great house before picking a great car. That's why I drove an Acura Legend (an excellent car but certainly not in this league) through 1994. The S-class was within my reach in 1990/91 and I also passed on the LS400 in those years until 1995. But I knew I wanted a bigger home in a different town. Built my house in 1994. It's funny how things happen. A higher auto payment may have made me take a lower priced lot. I took the more expensive lot back in 1994 bacause I had few other financial obligations. The other lot I was considering was $50k cheaper and that's $300 a month on a mortgage. Today that $50K is worth $600K. I still remember your decision a few years ago and I commend you for it.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Thanks for the article updates. It looks like Lexus will be changing quite a bit in the coming years. The article, which I finally read, mentioned the following (some of which you touched on):

    1. A super-luxury Lexus above the LS is coming. Lexus says "it's not an issue of if, but when."

    2. Lexus will create a performance division similar to Mercedes/AMG and BMW/M. According to Lexus, "we have to have those image products."

    3. Lexus' GM says no car "gets him more emotional than the pending redesign of the LS 430. It is more than just a redesign...it will make the same impact as the original."
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    I read somewhere (Consumer Digest I think) that a Lexus LS 500 might be available in model yeaar 2005. The 500 will be available alongside the 430. In 2006 or 2007 a Lexus LS 600 will come to market with a 400+ Hp V12 engine. That would really shake things up
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,
      Interesting comments by the Lexus GM..What's so predictable about their design change frequencies? Most European carmakers run their designs longer than Lexus. (Jaguar, MB S Class, BMW) What he's missing is lack of originality. You can debate the aesthetics all you want, but each of the Euro nameplates have their own distinctive design. Like it or not, you can't mistake a 745 for anything else. I'm glad Lexus leaning toward making a LS that rivals the original in impact..Only time will tell.

    I've noticed this forum usually centers around the Lexus vs German issue. What do you all think about Jaguar? Have they finally built a worthy competitor to the Lexus, MB, and BMW? How much have they really improved on reliability?

    SV
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