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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ak103ak103 Member Posts: 11
    Not sure how Maybach sales are going, but the Phantom as of 3 months ago or so was not doing well at all. The numbers were about half of what RR expected them to be.

    On a side note, I personally think the Maybach is ugly as sin. A warmed over S600 for $320k with a Buick grille, you can keep it.

    I think the Maserati Quattroporte is going to be a hot number, they just need to work on their dealer network.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    People do stop and smell the coffee. Their occasional "frivolous" spending is important motivational self-reward to keep going hard. The people that put every single $1 back into investing and business and are uptight and even judgemental about spending on anything else... well, they're not much fun as a rule. I mean, we only live once.

    Different people have different motivational reasons for doing what they do, and claiming that driving an S600 makes someone a lesser business person is nonsense.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "spending on anything else... well, they're not much fun as a rule. I mean, we only live once."

    In other words, rich, cheap and angry. Yes, I've seen that far too often. Of course, I've also seen rich, generous, giving and caring, and poor, selfish and indignant and poor, caring and giving.

    Oh well. To each their own, far be it for me to tell you how much money to save, or how to spend it. When I support you, I believe I can have a say in the matter.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "I did read your post and I was just contributing, not arguing ... I'm not saying anything about the hypothetical person's abilities, just expensive tastes and who ultimately finances them."

    PAT_HOST, I didn’t think you were being contentious, just debating a point. As someone said in another thread "Debating is a healthy way to exercise our brain." Anyway, I doubt if there is a bill you pay that doesn’t go toward someone’s Mercedes. At the top of most big corporate ladders are expensive cars.

    "show me a business person in an S Class or better and I'll show you a guy whose business(plan) is so deficient that it couldn't deploy the additional 70K+ in capital."

    BLOCKISLANDGUY, sorry to hear you have Mercedes S owners pegged as losers. This includes my boss so I’ll start right at home with my stories. My boss is very successful. In addition to his S he has two Porsches. Neither one of us are pretentious, but let’s face facts, there’s a living to be made out there with multi-million dollar accounts being awarded to capable businesses. When successful, well-paid clients are being driven to lunches and country clubs in Benzes as opposed to diners in Accords, I wonder which scenario REINFORCES the perception of a company’s capabilities. Want to deny this, vilify this? Be my guest. Also, my boss and I know a thing or two about working through lunches, late nights and weekends... seems we invented it. No sir, no money trees growing wild in our offices... we till the land and take the crop to harvest with a lot of sweat just as many other successful businesses with Mercedes-driving owners do. By the way, I don't wear a watch, but I've heard of people wearing $30,000 Breguets who donate wings to hospitals and schools. Why no watch? I just got sick of breaking and replacing them ;-)

    "It's far too off topic - but just for the heck of it - what products are sold by people from their cars? I exclude NYC where you can buy a suite of electronic products while you are trying to get into the Holland tunnel."

    LJFLX, I hope you don’t think I was talking about peddling sundries on the street from the trunk of a car. As you probably are aware, the term "product" ranges from a stick of bubble gum up to high-end services offered by billion-dollar corporations. Care to venture how much "product" has ever been discussed on a golf course with a Mercedes waiting in the parking lot? Advertising services, IT services, music, insurance, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals... I’m sure you know the story. Furthermore, I have made it a point to ask many people with high-end luxury vehicles what their cars mean to their businesses. Few claim their car affects their businesses directly, but ALL say they believe it projects an image of success, hence CAPABILITY to their clients.

    _______

    In conclusion, discussing performance and specs is one thing, but "High End Luxury Marques" and image is as "on topic" as it gets, as was your discussion about cars and affluent neighborhoods. Sorry but you can’t avoid it, from pimping to legitimate business deals, wherever there is money at stake, image and luxury cars are usually somewhere in the equation. What’s more, you guys know it.

    :-)
      
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I do business in Manhattan where you never see what people drive. When I'm not in Manhattan I'm in an office building - usally a board or conference room. Either way you don't see the car. The image presented by what someone drives (even if it were available to see) is not important in whether I do business with someone. It's simply whether or not what a business offers meets my needs or my business' needs. When there is enough competition I go with the most trustworthy person based on my instincts.

    I'm with Pablo - working hard and making money gives you the choices as to how to reward yourself. But the car doesn't present image. Only a person can do that.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Ljflx, I hear you and respect where you’re coming from. I have a lot of stories though.

    There’s this very successful man who is a legend in my field. He’s a real good golfer and is known for his ability to entertain clients and prospective clients. It is said that in the summer he is almost never in the office... has clients/prospects on the golf course every day of the week, wining, dining. Naturally, a couple of Mercedes are in the picture.

    I had done business with his major client in the past when they were the major client of a company I had worked for years ago. These people were impressed by opulence and very competitive with each other... part of their company culture.

    One day one of them decided he wanted to live out a fantasy by getting a limo, then walking along Central Park while the limo heeled along side of him at 2 mph. The story got back to the client office. Next thing you know, all of the VPs (and there were lots of them) were arranging frivolous business trips to NYC so they could do the same.

    Sound ridiculous? You bet it is. And for the winer-diner low-handicap-golfer Mercedes-driving businessman, clients like these are what he preys upon. Sure enough, he eventually landed that big fish. You can push his Mercedes as far in the background as you’d like, but it’s all part of the act.

    Now, of course I can’t disclose the client, but trust me, anyone who is out there reading this... you paid for those Mercedes and the Central Park strolls with limo at hand, not to mention the scalper-rate theatre tickets and dinners at the Manhattan Ocean Club.

    I am fully aware that not everyone wants a luxury car to impress others, but fact is, many many people do. I could write a book about this. If you want to hear more stories just let me know. I would especially delight in telling you about those who I have asked directly "What does your car mean to your business?"

    :-)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I am fully aware that not everyone wants a luxury car to impress others, but fact is, many many people do"

    Yes and others wear jewlery to impress and others wear jeans. In the past I worked in an institution that catered to well-heeled inviduals. I could tell stories like designman has. The only commanlity between the stories is they go to both extremes, from those who use expensive and guaudy items to prove something, to those who wore ripped jeans to blend in with the homeless. In the middle, the average client of the instutitino payed for it all. Designman is right, we all pay for this stuff. Unless you're a gazillionare.

    But at any rate, non of this has anything to do with 0-60.
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    My original post was regarding "wealthy people" and "value". I am talking about people who can afford a luxury car, but are not in the position to "have any car they wanted" (ie: Rolls Royce, Bently, etc.).

    None of your posts rebutting my statement bring a case that people who are concerned with value would choose a $89,000 Mercedes Benz over a $70,000 Lexus (which has more features, luxury and better reliability, depreciation).

    The majority of you were talking about FLASH, which was exactly what I stated.

    I do not understand who anyone who is concerned with real value would desregard a $20,000 difference for a (value wise - reliability, retained value, etc.) lesser vehicle.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The reason is really twofold - 1. that there are many people who refuse to accept that the Japaneses have rivaled, and in some cases exceeded the Europeans in building certain cars; 2. - There are people that believe the more expensive car has to be better or they just want to be seen in the most expensive car of a certain class.

    Now there are other reasons that can come into play of course but they speak to the person who is buying the car for the true automotive desire and experience. I love the Lexus LS430 because it offers what I seek the most in a car. But if my preference was more for a handling car you couldn't fault me or anyone else for going with a 7-series. MB still offers things that no one has and will custom tailor a car better than anyone thus nothing wrong with going with them. Some also may feel that the S-class is the safest car on the road. Who knows - but there are automotive differences and preferences that are real here and in those instances each person is right in the car they select regardless of price.
  • tmjddstmjdds Member Posts: 22
    Just got out of a 2001 LS430 and into a 2004 745Li. Money was not an issue and either was prestige. I just wanted a change.

    The Lexus NEVER had a repair issue...just normal maintenance. Have had the 7 series for 2 weeks. It has stalled twice and the dashboard lit up the first time I took it on the highway with a flat tire warning. I already have an appointment for repairs and it doesn't have 200 miles on it yet.

    I hope this is it. I read that the iDrive issues were resolved. I hope this is not an indication of things to come.

    My initial impressions are that the Lexus is a better car regardless of price. The standard Lexus seats were more comfortable than the optional comfort seats in the BMW. The Mark Levinson stereo was much better sounding than the optional upgraded BMW stereo. Even the sound of the doors closing was nicer in the Lexus. I don't get it. If it wasn't for the larger back seat in the BMW, I would be really regretting my decision.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Fresh from the show floor, just a few hours ago!

    In an earlier post I mentioned that I received an invite from Maserati to see their cars up close and personal.

    What an experience! I'll start with the Maseratis, but please remember that Maserati's owner is Ferrari and their cars were in same section! More on that in a moment.

    The Maserati Quattroporte feels custom made for me. It's a real intimate car with a very sporty personality, kinda like a 4-door coupe. The seats are similar to BMW's "sport" seats, confining for some, just right for others (me). The car here, as opposed to Detroit was a shade of silver, with a beige interior. Really gorgeous. Custom luggage, check. F1 style transmission, check. They have a display with all the different shades of leather and wood types, man this car is like a blank canvas. The little lever for Reverse looks really weird, not in a bad way, just in a way that makes you think something is missing....i.e. a real gear shift. Then you see the little shift levers behind the steering wheel.

    The Maserati Spyder is my second favorite in the lux-roadster class, at least based on everything except driving it. I still want a SL500 first, but then a Spyder. Interior wise it's pretty much the same as the Quattroporte. Custom interior tailoring is the catch phrase for any Maserati. They'll wrap any and everything in the softest of leathers and/or real suede, even the roll-bars.

    FERRARI........Ferrari...............Ferrari

    The only thing was the wouldn't open these! Nobody there could get them to open the cars. I guess them being actual customer cars had something to do with it huh?

    I finally got to see the new 612 Scagletti up close an in a lighter color than the Detroit car. It's gorgeous. The 360 Modena was conspicuous by it's absence. Ferriari's best looking car is still the 575M Maranello. Such a brutal 2-seater.

    All in all this made the Chicago show more memorable, but the Detroit show is still by far the best. Lamborghini and Rolls-Royce didn't officially come to Chicago, but Shell did have a Phantom and Gallardo on display.

    I still don't like the Bentley Continental GT, though everyone else did.

    I noticed also that here as opposed to Detroit, certain cars are not open for sitting. Porsches are typically locked, except for the Cayenne, but here they were locked also. This cut down on the traffic in their section dramatically.

    The VW Phaeton was on a turntable, and there was no Audi A8L 6.0 W12.

    I also noticed that the displays here are much smaller than Detroit's, even thought McCormick Place is much larger than Detroit's Cobo Hall. Interesting.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "None of your posts rebutting my statement bring a case that people who are concerned with value would choose a $89,000 Mercedes Benz over a $70,000 Lexus (which has more features, luxury and better reliability, depreciation)."

    That's partially because no S-Class owners posted, at least any of the usual ones that post here from time to time.

    Secondly, like I said before Value is what you "value" in a car, not that cheaper/more/less stuff, that doesn't always apply to cars costing 70K+ as none of the cars at this level are really a true "value" by original definition of the word. None of these cars are needed! When people shop at this level they pretty much know or have an idea of what they like and want, true value in this class is about as personal as personal can get. The things you listed are not the total experience nor do they comprise what every one values in a car of this type. You can't make such a broad generalization about every S-Class buyer, because surely every Lexus LS buyer isn't a wannabe Mercedes owner either.

    M
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    Here is the link for Forbes' review of the 2005 Maserati Quattroporte they just broadcast - http://www.forbes.com/2004/02/09/cx_dl_0209feat.html. It appeared just before I saw merc1's review from Chicago and especially his time with the Quattroporte. I found the following quote very interesting "... Maserati is gunning for BMW. When designing the Quattroporte, the company hoped to emulate the driving dynamics of BMW's M5 sedan and the content and features of BMW's 7-series sedan".

    I recall showing a picture of the Quattroporte to my wife asking her opinion when it first appeared in Automobile Magazine a few months ago. Of course, since she is from Italy, I was somewhat stacking the deck.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That is why it is so hard to even think of leaving the Lexus fold. Ordering a sports suspension LS430 for a 3 year lease before end of February for late April delivery. You need to get in early to get the sport suspension. Then I am very anxious to see that next LS design. The sport suspemsion is a great car - 95+% of the perfect LS ride with real nimble handling.
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    jziol,

    I really concur with ljflx! He gets right to the point of how hard it is to leave Lexus once you have purchased/leased a new Lexus (however, I have to limit my experiences to the V8 rear-wheel drive models like the LS and GS).

    I made a post on this thread a while back where I focused on the "true cost" of the ownership experience which I believe is far more important than the actual price of the vehicle.

    I suspect that you will get your entire purchase price back minus some possible usage (although I would fight that assumption). If it is not heading in that direction, my advise would be to retain an attorney that specializes in Lemon Law cases.

    Best of luck.

    JF
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    ljflx,

    When do your dealership sources and readings indicate that we will see the next entirely new LS? Based on your post, it appears that you are expecting to trade the LS you are ordering on the next new LS in March 2007.

    Are you expecting the new LS to hit dealers in OCtober 2006? I can not seem to get a real handle on exactly when to expect it. The only firm knowledge seems to be that the new GS will be in dealer showrooms in January 2005.

    As I had mentioned before, I am waiting on the new one to replace the LS I have but my wife also like the pictures of the new GS.

    Thanks,

    JF
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    My friend got one of the new 7 series and it has been in the shop several times, too. I had an MB which was out of service for 40 days while they replaced the engine block. The car was only 4 months old. I wasn't too impressed with the honda civic they loaned me during the repairs. My next car was a Lexus and like so many on this thread, I can't imagine considering a BMW or MB anymore. My LS is 3 years now and I just ordered a second. There were no other models to consider.

    I think the durability and quality of MB and BMWs has declined in the last few years. Both in their cars and in their service. If you find a problem with your Lexus, the dealer will bend over backwards to keep you happy. They can afford to - it doesn't happen very often.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    A very sad tale. Hopefully BMW will buy your car back and you can get some other brand. One striking thing about your post was "The wait for service if one wishes to have a loaner car is several weeks." At my local Lexus dealer, they were out of loaner cars for me once and they just picked up the phone and rented a car for me for a day. It was a Camry from the Toyota dealer down the street, but better than nothing.

    There was a more funny than sad annecdote on this board some weeks ago...a ML owner had both bumpers fall off the vehicle after running it through a carwash!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't think there is any hard info or even reliable rumor on the next gen LS. Clement said recently the whole line would be new by Spring 2007. A reasonable expectation for the LS would be sometime between fall 2005 and fall 2006.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I fully expect the next gen LS will be a 2007 model and will be available in Oct 2006 - at the latest. My sales guy told me I'm on the perfect 3 year plan right now for always getting the latest significant changes. But Lexus is getting aggressive in their roll-out plans for this new LFS design and I think they just want to get it over with for the LS,IS and ES ASAP. Toyota's financial resources are sky high right now so they can do almost any aggressive move they want to. So I would not be surprised if the new LS is available as early as the Spring of 2006 as a 2007 model. I don't think they want the S-class to have a one year lead anymore and with BMW shooting themselves in the foot this is becoming an LS vs S battle in the long run. The Maserati won't cut it here in my opinion and whatever it does will likely hurt BMW and Jaguar.

    Speaking oof Jaguar - a business acquaintence had to have his transmission replaced in the fall. After a lot of negotiations with Jaguar they cut him a deal that allowed him to only pay for the labor (about $1200) as the car was about a year past warranty. This was a classy act by Jaguar as the transmission cost over $9k. But he only had 30k miles on the car. Now the car died on him again and is in the shop for 10 days. His comment to me last week was "I never had a problem with a Jaguar until I bought one". He's had numerous minor problems before but now he is flat out disgusted. What is with these European cars?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I did get Automobile today and saw that GS comment. The car does look sleek in the picture they show. What is a bit confusing is that it seems AWD may only be put on the V-6 but maybe Automobile got it wrong.

    Next to it is the story about the 12cyl A8. I must say I think the Germans have lost their minds with these rocket power engines. The V-8 power and 23mpg I get in the LS430 with a 6.5 second 0-60 is more than sufficient and is a beautiful blend of power and good gas mileage. These super powerful engines are putting excess on top of excesses and you hardly ever need or can use the power anyway. The German carmakers would serve themselves a lot better to invest in building the cars better and improving their reliability problems. I'm also no fan of Audi's new corporate grill. The one on the current A8 is bold and beautiful and should be left alone.

    The funny story in automobile is on page 34 where they accuse VW of copying the Lexus HPX style with its possible future C1 hatchback. Now I must say I like this C1 Crossover but that is most likely because I like the HPX so much - and it is a copy.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The VW is merely a drawing at this point and that drawing looks nothing like the raised HPX, but already its a copy. Only because they mentioned Lexus would anyone on this board think that. The C1 crossover is similar to a Mazda 3 five-door or the old Saabs that had 5-doors in concept/layout, not a high-riding wagon trying to be a SUV like the HPX. Automobile gives pure speculation about styling they don't even know about yet and they're so right, but when they said the LF-S had a lot of 5-Series in it's make up they were oh so wrong. Right.

    Every writeup about the new GS states that awd will only be offered on the V6 GS300 model.

    The Maserati Quattroporte is a niche player, they aren't going for volume like the S/LS/7.

    M
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    Thanks, ljflx for bringing to light another thought of mine. This recent obsession with power. The LS is perfectly balanced. I don't want any more HP. I'd rather have the MPG. Yeah I know you buy a $68K car you shouldn't fret about MPG, but I really appreciate the good MPG I get in the LS. I'll pay for safety and luxury - but not cylinders.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I still get upset when I'm in unknown territory and I see a gas station a nickel a gallon cheaper right after I filled up. It's a throwback to college when those pennies added up to an extra beer at the bar or a sixpack for the frat. I'll never outgrow that.

    Merc1 - Sorry - It looks an awful lot like the HPX to me - in the picture - right down to the headlights.

    Maserati - smart move to only make 1500 or so a year since it is probable that a larger volume will run into sales problems. But if they prove the car and then crank up the volume it can be a different story. I don't know if they have the resources for much more volume thus I don't get the the story of how they are going after a very resourceful BMW. 1500 sales a year is a change in the rounding after the decimal point when those sales "take aways" are distributed.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Sounds like most of us who drive Lexus vehicles aren't going to be buying a v12 if they ever produce one.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      This horsepower race is absolutely befuddling to me. I don't think the average buyer cares whether the car can do 0-60 is 5.6 sec rather than 6.3. I use my LS cars for commuting, not racing. I wouldn't be terribly inclined to buy any upcoming V-12..I live in New England, where am I going to use all that horsepower?

     I was happy with the amount of power my 92 LS has. I don't mind the extra 40 horsepower my 02 has, but it's not really necessary. Both cars can easily do 90+ MPH on the interstate, so that's good enough for me.

    I hear you all on Gas prices. I always wait for "Super Tuesday" or some other gas station promotion to save a few cents per gallon..Not that it makes a big difference, but I guess it's a psychological effect of paying a lower price.

    Any idea on what a hybrid LS would offer in MPG?

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't really care if they tweak the HP up to 340 or even 360 but don't make it a high priority and don't compromise gas mileage. HP at 400+ is for bragging purposes and is pure wasted excess. All it does is get a bunch of writers at the automags and the hardcore enthusisast excited. As a car buyer I couldn't care less as long as there is enough power and the LS430 is plenty long on power with excellent torque. I'm glad to see the hynbrids add power but at realistic levels.
  • johncaliforniajohncalifornia Member Posts: 28
    Wow, what a bunch of fuddy-duddys on this board!

    Yes, I checked the board name twice and it still reads "High End Luxury Marques". But the posts go on about new models having "too much power" and how fuel economy is a greater priority to the writers. I think this attitude goes to show how different the people who populate car forums are from the great majority of people who buy the cars.

    Since the 1930s, power has been a defining characteristic of a luxury car. Today's luxo-bombs are getting pretty heavy. Three hundred horsepower is about entry-level for moving around a full-sized Jag/Merc/Lexus or BMW. Four hundred horsepower is NOT excessive when it can be managed with traction control and in some cases 4WD.

    But more to the point, I'm not about to tell anybody their car is too expensive, or has too much power, or uses too much fuel, or whatever. Decisions about what's too much vs. what is just enough are subjective.

    As a general convention, though, I'm like most people who really buy "high end luxury marques". I'll take my luxury car (in my case a Jaguar XJ8) with all the ponies the manufacturer is kind enough to install. As the French philosopher once said, "A little too much is just enough for me."
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    I second johncalifornia's comments. I suggest that is why Lexus owners don't "get it" when drivers of Mercedes suggest that the "driving experience" is totally superior to Lexus and why we are willing to put up with slightly less reliability. I own and drive Mercedes, Jags and Porsches and every time I test drive a new Lexus LS,GS,SC I have no desire to buy one. I have an open mind and will keep trying. I would be interested in a Lexus with a V12 if the handling matched the engine.
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    Most people posting here do own luxury cars. I'll define luxury as any car costing over $55K. I don't shop for gas or rarely look at gas prices. I was just saying that for the future LS, if given the choice, I would prefer more MPG than HP. I agree there are lots of luxury car buyers who want excessive power. I don't think that's the LS market. We'll leave that for BMW and MB.
  • jfz219jfz219 Member Posts: 63
    One's buying decisions in this market are driven by such factors as power, handling, safety, size, styling, comfort, efficiency, reliability, innovation, tradition, exclusivity, resale value, price, and emotion. Some lease with the expectation that there will be another new idea in a few years. Others buy for the long-term ride. Many of these factors can be skewed by geography or the local dealer.

    This is why the products and the opinions are so diverse.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm amazed at this. Have driven many a benz - I never got that driving experience any of you talk about. So I must not know what I am missing but I've long been convinced it's psychological. Since I owned a Porsche in the past I think I know a thing or two about road feel. The S500 I drove didn't feel all that different than the LS430 I have. It just didn't ride as well or feel as luxurious inside and I hardly trust its reliability. The S430 engine indeed felt underpowered (though I'm sure it was fine for the old E-class) and the S500 engine was excellent. Last time I looked these two V8's represent 90% of MB's V8 sales here. One has the tiniest of an edge over an LS430 V8 on paper (on the road I couldn't possibly tell) and the other falls short.

    I think the point is missed on power. 0-60mph in 6 secpnds with powerful torque is plenty good. Getting more power than that in a few too many hands becomes dangerous. There was an incident in London that proves that out. If MB can build a better car rather than focus on more powerful engines for those handful of cars they make them for than maybe I can really consider buying one in the future. Until then I'll stay with Lexus.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    My personal experience: I found the 370hp on the XJR I owned a total waste. I bought the car for the looks (less chrome, sportier stance compared to the XJ8) rather than horsepower. First of all, there is the highway [non-permissible content removed] in CA. I don't enjoy traffic school. You drive a car like that just like you would drive a 50hp Ford Festiva.

    Moreovoer, that HP is only made feasible through electronic gadgetry that increasingly isolates the driver from the real driving experience, in my opinion.

    On the more radical new teutonic horsepower wave, there are drawbacks, espeically on California roads: either the drivetrain durability is compromised by being exposed to massive power and especially torque, or the dramatic addition to unsprung mass due to the strengthening of everything does not do the driving experience many favors - I have been on both an Audi RS6 and the new Merc E55, and was not particularly impressed with the driving feel: if that's how things are going to be, I'd rather have fun in a Mini with sports package, and save myself about a cool $50k.

    I am with those who say that something in the tuetonic horsepower race is an odd disconnect. as a rule, luxury sedan buyers dont give a damn, and more extreme sportscar purists wouldn't be caught dead in a 4 door.

    I also must note that, despite not being a pennypincher, I was put off by 13mpg and $2200 tire bills every 10k miles on the XJR. If a car is going to be high maintenance, I'd rather have more pedigree on the table than a 4 door sedan package. Ergo the 90s Corniche I got as a collectionist-extravagant drive.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    "like 13mpg and $2,200 tires every 10K."

    Pablo, I strongly suspect that most, if not all, of us do care about $2,200 tires every 10K (even if that was just for dramatic effect). Being able to afford the high-end car should not mean that one is willing to just throw money away (at least I hope not).

    The point you make about the (im)practicality of HP run amok on U.S. roads is undeniable. Even if you put the leopard on a track from time to time, you will eventually want to go straight ahead at some point.

    But the attraction is sooooooo irresistable! Why do we do it? Why do we struggle between the head and the heart, only to exchange the exhilaration of anticipation with post-purchase remorse? Who the heck knows! But we do it, over and over again.

    Got a few extra HPs? Sure, throw 'em in!

    Whatever the decision, let's have fun with it and keep trucking, or MBing, or Lexusing, or BMWing, etc.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I picked up my current 530i 5-Speed in Germany two years ago and when I was dropping it off at E.H. Harms to be shipped over to the U.S. I called a cab to take me back into Munich. The driver asked me what I had bought, and when I told him it was a 530i he laughed at me and asked, "What are you going to do with all of that power in America?"

    That kind of says it all I think. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    January 2004 Sales.

    LS: 2510
    7 Series: 1197
    S Class: 1453

    I don't remember the last time the LS so handily outsold the 7 and the S.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well like the S-Class last year, the LS has just received a face-lift so it will be hot this year. The 7-Series is up next, for 2005. Meanwhile 2004 will be a tough year for the 7-Series. I'm personally waiting to see what the A8 can do in a full year. Actually 2005 might be the A8's "year" because they'll be a cheaper swb model, and the W12 model both coming at the end of this year. I'm also curious to see how many Phaetons VW can move in a full year.

    ljflx,

    Ask some of your Mercedes owning/driving friends why they drive a Mercedes, or what the lure/draw is concerning the actual driving of their cars. Just a suggestion.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Also I think you may have already been sold on and convinced that the LS430 was the car for you. Even when just talking about how the Mercedes drove you bring up reliability, which doesn't have anything to do with just gauging how a car drives.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There used to be 10 MB acquaintances. Five switched to Lexus (all LS430's, one bought BMW (a 5 series from an E; the 5 is indeed a great car) and another bought a Jaguar XKE (found the SL just too expensive and not worth it). One renewed an MB S-class lease and the other two are long-term owners who switch cars every 6-8 years. The allure isn't so strong here.

    The S-class is an excellent car but falls short in the areas that count most for me. It has a great ride but the LS430 ride (an absolute critical item for me) has a better one. The S doesn't have as high quality an interior as the LS (another critical one), and it doesn't have the body build of an LS430 (still another critical one). It's not that any of thse things are bad on the S-class but if its the most expensive car than it should have the best build and be the most bulletproof. The reliability of course is a major consideration and the Lexus is a sureshot. Ultimately luxury is reliability combined with the big three items I just noted - for me - it might be different for someone else. Power is a given at these prices so the ultimate luxury is to not have to worry about the car going to the shop.

    It's foolish to think someone wouldn't be impressed with an S-class and give it serious consideration. This isn't college vs. kindergarten. It's 5 stars vs 4.75 stars.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Lexus sold about 35k LS430's in 2001 and probably had that type of an edge in certain months. Merc1 is right - new model or a significant refresh helps sales immensely. What bothers me is Lexus upped production and the LS430 is still scarce on my dealers lot. That's not good for negotiating.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Ljflx, nicely said in post #4100. Not that it matters but I am certainly convinced you have the right car for yourself.

    With regard to the fuddy-duddy posts, I can't help but wonder if the power brokers actually use their power or if it is just for show. Pathdoc's handle suggests he could have a get-out-of-jail-free card so I might take him serious. The others, I'm not so sure.

    I know I see more than enough well-dressed businessmen loping along at 55mph into Manhattan with 911 turbos and such... have to believe it goes back to image and business presence.

    There's nothing wrong with "boring" luxury cars. In my mind they have little to do with performance anyway. The luxury car owner who is a sportsman will add a real sports car to his repertoire and not dwell on performance in a large sedan... two different animals.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You know we pit them against each other but in reality there are many who own both. Carnaught who posts here often is one and says great things about both brands. I stopped to think that my post 4100 was really about family and closer friends and alluded to the primary cars. But there are Lexuis people who have ML's and C-class cars that I know and there are plenty of MB S-class guys in my town that I see one day in the S-class and another day in a Lexus SUV or a TLC. The guys I know more closely that swapped out of MB all had a Japanese second car - either an MDX, an ES300, an LX470 or an RX. So this buyer group is hardly exclusive which makes this battle all the more ludicrous.

    Ray Catena - my local dealer is a big-time guy that sells both cars plus Jaguar and others. He has the biggest MB dealership in NJ (and one of the biggest in the Northeast) and his Lexus dealership just surpassed his MB dealership in sales for the first time. In fact he is opening a second Lexus dealership right next to a local MB dsealership. He couldn't care less which car you buy so long as you buy it from him. Walk into his MB dealership and they rave about Lexus if you bring it up and vice-versa if you walk into the Lexus shop.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    ljflx,

    "In fact he is opening a second Lexus dealership right next to a local MB dsealership."

    Where? Next to Ray Catena Benz on Route 1 in Edison?

    Currently, it is such a hike to drive from my local Lexus dealer to the next closest which is Ray Catena in Oakhurst. Would love to see some competition for my local Lexus dealer in Edison area.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    No. He is going to build one on RT 9 in Freehold next to David Michaels Mercedes/Honda.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    wow! That's good news for me too. Pretty much the same distance as Edison would have been.
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    The 2005 S Class. Have you seen the pic in Automobile Magazine? A Mercedes board member said it is the size of the 91-98 model and will have a radical new style. The wheel wells are like the A6 4.2V8 on massive amounts of steriods, almost like a PT cruiser.

    Also everything that I have gathered from reports and spy shots is the interior actually has a 7 series look and will use a iDrive like system a la BMW and Audi.

    Anyone have any info?
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Lj, you hit it on the head that people have both kinds. I have a '00 SL500 and I'll be receiving my '04 LS430 in a few weeks.

    I own the MB because it's a weekend driver and I have had my share of problems with it (Electrical is all - MB DOES have problems with electrical!). But I do love it.

    My current sedan right now is a '01 STS that I've had problem after problem with and can't wait to turn in next weekend! I also have a Chevy Tahoe LT. (Not one problem in 9500+ miles!)

    The saddest thing and what makes me never want another MB (for driving every day) is that, even on Spring or Autumn days when it would be fun to drive the SL - The electrical problems (roof) I've had proclude me from doing so. Sure, it's still under warranty but that makes no difference when a pop-up thunderstorm comes along and your roof is open but can't close it.

    MB is a dying, overrated beast of a company. Let the young kids getting out of college have them - they couldn't care less about quality.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What LS430 did you take and how good a deal did you get?

    It's too bad such a marvelous car like the SL is beset by those problems. I have my eyes on the SL and I hope they clean-up these problems. Like you I'd use it as a toy car and hold it real long-term. But I love the SC430 as well and I've always loved the Jaguar XK. Can't go wrong with any of the three and since it's not an everyday car the reliability isn't as weighty. But you can bet your life the SC430 will be the most reliable. The guy with the transmission problem I mentioned in an earlier post has the XK. My neighbor also has a new XK (came out of the old S-class) in a gorgeous mint green color. He's the guy that thought the SL was overpriced. His kids are grown and he no longer needed a big sedan. So far it's been a letter perfect car.
  • anthonycecilanthonycecil Member Posts: 68
    While we were being driven , in a strange city, in a Mercedes s , I could not tell the difference between it and my LS. Both cars are very similar-and as I rarely if ever get to be in the passengers seat--I looked around. To me the Mercedes is very nice and comfortable. I like the seat adjuster better than the LS. Also the headrest adjusts out from the bottom to really give your neck support. The feel of the ride is no different to me. I liked the different look, just because it was different.

    As we were tooling along, up comes a Bentley. It was the four door sedan, and the wheels and tires really are large. A stately ride, but to my tastes the wheels were out of balance.

    My friends that own S Mercedes can afford anything they want, and have earned that right.. They seem happy with their choices and largely havebeen repeat buyers. I have stuck with Lexus, and because of the quality will probably continue to do so. It would be nice to have a change sometimes, but it would have to be in the right direction. Tony ps I surely like the radio(Mark Lev)
  • johncaliforniajohncalifornia Member Posts: 28
    Pablo: I've read your unhappy XJR tales on the Jag board: rough ride, too fast for real-world driving, poor tire life, etc., and I can only nod my head in agreement because I bought a "base" XJ8 to AVOID these problems. Still, I acknowledge that most owners LOVE their XJRs, and some want to make them go even faster!

    High-end cars are about wish fulfillment, and the XJR is not a bad car or a dumb car simply because I do not want one. If I branded the XJR as excessive, what's to stop the Camry driver from labelling my XJ8 the same way?

    Pathdoc: Isn't being a Euro-car snob getting to be hard work these days? Sure, the Lexus brand is not for enthusiasts, but that in no way diminishes what Toyota has accomplished in creating this car. They have simply manufactured the most comfortable and reliable car ever built, and at a very reasonable cost.

    Do you think Asian car manufacturers are no less motorheads and performance-oriented than Germans or Italians? Take a Mazda RX-8 for a drive and get your consciousness raised!

    Toyota could have made the Lexus just as much an Autobann stormer as any BMW or Mercedes ever was, but they wisely understood that the vast majority of U.S. luxury car owners are not interested in Z-rated apex strafing. (Americans like horsepower, though, so Lexus are always competitive in that area!)

    Edspider: Just because somebody is dumb enough to pay $55K for a Lincoln LS does not qualify that car to join the ranks of Lexus and the Germans. Read the car magazines and notice where the LS invariably finishes: at the bottom of the heap.

    There's nothing I'd like more than an American car that kicks German butt, but as long as GM and Ford are run by eunuchs, that isn't gonna happen. (Are those Harely Earl commercials for Buick pathetic or what? Having to reach back 50 years to find a real car guy in your company.)

    As for Daimler Chrysler . . . I've seen the cross-eyed Crossfire and gawd only knows where that company is headed.
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