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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    Do you have to say the 745 looks hideous. Couldn't you say ugly. Kidding aside it's never struck me as ugly. Different for sure and maybe in need of some refinement. On the other hand the MB's have tended to be very conservative. I think they are attractive for the most part but the "most beautiful" as quoted somewhere on this site I think not. Take the SLR. Very impressive engineering but it looks like Pinnochio!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You said...

    "So far everything says that Mercedes will adopt some type of idrive controller combined with the next generation of Comand. The controller will reportedly give the driver a choice between using the conventional buttons or not. From what the British press says, the controller won't take the place of basic controls like in the BMW."

    I'm interested in knowing more. Can you tell me what/where you read about this? Seems MB is hedging BMW's bet on iDrive and wisely so.

    The digital vs mechanical confrontation presents very interesting design challenges and I don't think BMW has thought this out rationally. Personally, I believe they can't successfully eliminate conventional controls and in the not -too-distant future today's iDrive will be deemed grossly insufficient and deficient.

    In cars, digital technology must work seemlessly in the background. We need less interaction from the driver, not more. The wheel itself is mechanical and low-tech, but we are stuck with it. Even in the most sophisticated military and space craft mechanical controls are still in abundance. Short of sophisticated voice rec, nothing can replace the convenience of a one-touch mechanical button or dial. Will be interesting to see where this goes.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'm hoping the red one will turn out to be a Lexus

    http://www.autoindex.org/news.plt?no=762&nl=y#
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Of interest in the above link, "Toyota provided to Italdesign-Giugiaro its latest hybrid power plant, the one to be used into the Lexus RX400...the Volta has a total output of 300 Kw / 408 hp, reaches 250 kph of top speed and accelerates from 0 to 100 kph in 4.06 seconds. But probably its most striking performance is the ability to cover 700 kms with a 52-liters gasoline tank." p.s. 100kph=62mph

    I wonder if the RX400h will have 408hp (up from 230hp in the RX330)?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The red one has some resemblance to the Lexus in Minority Report.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    syswei: Thx for the link. The specs for the Toyota hybrid engine in the link jells with some of the rumors floating out there that the hybrid V8 in the 2006 GS4 will churn out 400+bhp, 300 from the engine and 100 from the battery, or so. So we can logically project the 2007 LS to share a similar hybrid engine. If Toyota can get the GS and/or LS to the low 4s in 0-60, that will rival or even beat the best AMG can offer in the same price point - E55. May even best the SL55 in a drag race ! Sounds like another winner from Lexus coming to a dealer near you in a matter of 2 years.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    If Lexus can bring to market an affordable hybrid with that type of performance in the next three years even I will become a Lexus fan. Sign me up!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    About the 7-Series...lol. Anyway, it's just that trunklid and the fact that 18 inch wheels don't fit in the wheel wells, something that never happens on a BMW.

    Beautiful Mercedes-Benzes?? Well the only ones that I think that truly applies to are the SL, CL and possibly the E and S-Classes in Sport trim only. I agree about the SLR, but hey the engineering brief some what dictates how a 200mph car looks. Check out the Enzo. Only the Porsche Carrera GT escapes the F1 look, because HA(!) it was based on a LeMans racer.

    designman,

    I'll have to look back through various issues of CAR magazines; they are the ones that continually speculate on what Mercedes-Benz is going to do. I for one am totally lost on this issue now because different mags say different things, so it might be best to just wait and see.

    oac,

    A LS doing 60 mph in the 4 second range will *probably* never happen. Toyota is too conservative, plus you Lexus guys don't care about such a thing right? How is that if Lexus makes a 400hp+ car, it's great, but when any other brand makes one, its a waste of time and energy? Interesting.

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Even if Lexus makes a 400hp hybrid LS or GS, it won't make it to 60 in the 4's. The car will be too heavy. Low 5's maybe.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      I think the reason a 400Hp LS is favored by us Lexus followers is b/c of the use of Hybrid Techonlogy. You're correct in assuming I'd label any other implementation a waste. If they can build a car that gives 20+ MPG with that much HP, then I'm fine with it. Of course, that amount of HP is definitely overkill.

       What do you all think of the advent of this Drive by Wire Technology? The accelerator in the LS430 implements it and does a decent job. Any idea if this has any backup systems? I've heard about all the complaints about the E class Brake by wire System and this leads me to this question: Why do we need this? Are automakers going too far in cramming electronics into their cars?

    SV
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    sv7887,

    Do you mean drive by wire as in the drive by wire throttle control in the Lexus'? If so, yes it does have a back-up system should the drive by wire system fail.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Merc1: "A LS doing 60 mph in the 4 second range will *probably* never happen"

    I guess we'll see if an LS can make a low 4s 0-60mph. The 2004 already is under 6s, with no engine change just going from a 5-speed to a 6-speed tranny. So with a 38% hp increase from 290hp to 400hp, and no significant increase in weight, a low 5s, and even sub-5s is a real possibility for such an engine.

    Yes, in general Lexus is a very conservative company, but if you listen to Clements last press release, they are looking to change that. They are clearly intending to target BMW in their new releases starting MY2006, and will include a performance tuning unit. That alone spells a huge change, that Lexus will produce factory-tuned performance-luxury cars, along the same lines as the M and AMG. I guess they are now shedding their conservative approach to a fairly more aggressive stance. And about time too.

    Styling changes. Witness the 2006 GS. Regardless of what many think, vanilla styling it is NOT. RX400H engine is a certainty as the future move is into hybrid technology, and Toyota/Lexus is in the lead here. A 400+bhp engine can be done, and *probably* will be done. Who knows what the specs will be on that engine ? Maybe low 5s (0-60), or even low 11s in the 1/4-mile ! Lexus knows it must shed its current luxo-cruiser image to grow, and they have the will, the money and the determination to do what it takes. And if history is any judge, they will meet and beat expectations.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Clements is the head of American Lexus. Cho is the head of the whole Toyota enchilada. I recall him not long ago saying Lexus will keep up with hp with other premium brands standard offerings, but not have performance division.

    Who would know more or have more say, Clements or Cho? The answer is pretty obvious.

    The picture of that Benz sedan that has a coupe like shape that somebody posted a while ago, is that the new S? It looks superb, but is too similar to Maybach.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    mariner7,

    Cho's comments about staying behind in the horsepower race were over a year ago. To create a performance division you do not necessarily need to have a higher horsepower number than every competitor. Having similar horsepower numbers is all it takes.

    I believe the coupelike sedan Mercedes debuted at the Geneva show you are talking about is the new CLE-class.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Cars with more than 8 cylinder are called Halo cars. The reason is making a car with 10 or 12 cylinder doesn't make that company more profitable but it does create curiosity for that company's lower end product aka. cars with 4, 6, and 8 cylinders. Really, what percentage of Mercedes sold in the world market has V12 engine anyway? Same goes for BMW and Audi. This is just a gimmick car companies employ to enhance their hollow status symbol. Daimler Benz, BMW, Jaguar, Audi, etc are not the same company they were 25 years ago when they had the entire luxury car market to themselves. Toyota has taken a considerable portion of that market with the introduction of the Lexus lineup. In fact, the lower end cars from BMW and Mercedes actually competes with Toyota and Honda rather than Lexus or Acura. In Europe the most popular Mercedes is the C class which is almost as common as Camrys are in North America. It is nice to know that Lexus can compete on quality rather than how much horsepower their engine puts out. Anybody can make a 500 horsepower car. But nobody can build a car with the quality and precision of Lexus, at least not yet.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You think for one second that Clements makes that comment without having the project (and the comments and press release) greenlighted beforehand? No way. A lot of things have changed since the earlier comment - witness Lexus going with its own new direction styling and its own brand in Japan.

    HP - I don't think the comment about not playing the high HP game meant they wouldn't shoot for more HP than they now offer. I think it meant they were'nt going to play the game of 450-500+HP engines particularly when they guzzle gas like crazy. Jumping the HP to 340-360 is a must to stay competitive mainly for marketing purposes. But they will do it with hybrids hence the earlier comment by the CEO of not playing the game. When these hybrid engines hit the scene getting 20-30+mpg and giving you 350-400HP (which is badly needed for the big suv's and not the cars) everyone will be chasing Toyota's lead. I'm not really looking for a quicker 0-60 but I'll never turn down more torque.

    motownusa - in the US MB sells about 1200 S-600's a year and AMG sells about 15,000 cars annually worldwide. These rare cars are sometimes discussed as if they are representative of every MB car.

    CLE - yes I think that is it and its a stunning car.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Someone on this forum summarized the Clements interview sometime ago, but I hadn't seen the whole article until now. For those who haven't read it: http://is300.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6- 4&mode=&order=0&thold=0
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Sounds real exciting stuff coming down the pipe for Lexus according to Clements. Will have to wait and see though. Me, I just want a super lux LS cruiser with occassional pretensions to performance. I plan to be in line for the first few roll-outs of the 2007 LS4. Can't wait....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually drive by wire isn't new. BMW debuted this technology on the 1988 750iL and Cadillac on the 1990 Allante. Needless to say this was a long time ago. There have been no complaints or problems with this type of technology since the very beginning. Even Honda uses it on several cars that cost much less than most Lexus, Mercedes or BMW models.

    Brake by wire has proven in certain applications to dramatically shorten stopping distances. Before adopting this technology, Mercedes' never won out over BMW in braking distances, the downside is that the pedal feel is not right for some, and yes there will be some failures and/or glitches to go with this new technology.

    Both of these systems, of course have back up systems, though I don't know a single case of drive by wire failing.

    oac,

    We'll see about all that. I seriously doubt Lexus will do the type of car needed to outdo an E55 or M5; it would need 500hp to do this. To get a Hybrid to do this would be an expensive and arduous task indeed. A mere 400hp won't get it anymore if you're trying to out-do these cars.

    The new GS isn't vanilla, you're right...my own personal opinion is that it's ungainly and just a poor design.

    ljflx,

    You like the CLS! Surprising. Well I guess not since I don't like it, it would appeal to a Lexus person...lol.

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I was driven around in the new 7 series today. I have never been a fan of the exterior (I must say all new BMWs have been extremely clumsily executed design wise, and don't do the cars' dynamic excellence justice), but I was surprised that the interior didn't do much for me, either. I thought I'd like the avant-garde clean interior, but the lack of a shifter and such renders the interior somewhat... soccer mom van like, really. Materials excellent, but something's missing. The 5 series is also very underwhelming when seen live. Looks Acura-like. Not that Acuras aren't extremely competent cars, this is just to point out the proportiones simply aren't as *right* as BMWs of the past always had. The look is gettig more bloated, as if all their products were becoming middle-aged.

    Then I saw a Maybach driving back home for work, and again I think the car terribly designed. It looks like an Oldsmobile supercar or something, those back lights are inexcusable.

    And then I saw a Bentley Arnage, and voila, instant luxury look. Big barge, but immense presence, and it combines dynamics with elegance. What a classic, it'll be sorely missed.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Where does the CLE fit in? Won't MB have too many sedans? My guess is it shares platform with E.

    I agree with merc. It was a nice try by Lexus, but two cars debuting about same time as GS will have nicer bodies, A6 & M. From photos, GS just doesn't have the clean lines of those cars.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I share your thoughts; thankfully the Arnage has at least a few more years to go.

    What you were missing in the BMW was that cockpit feel that BMW used to provide. They've all but abandoned that concept. The 3-Series is next.

    mariner7,

    The CLS (CLE was just the concept name, though I like "CLE" better) is supposed to be a 4-door Coupe, and yes it is based on the E-Class platform. Mercedes seems to deem whatever bodystyle they want to be a "Coupe". First the hatchback C230 is a Coupe, now the 4-door CLS is a "Coupe" also. Only at Mercedes-Benz.

    The CLS350 (all new 3.5L V6 268hp) and CLS500 (5.0L V8 302hp) will be priced between the E and S-Class sedans. Both will have the new 7-speed tranny also. Expect some type of AMG version in a year or so.

    Britain's CAR magazine (you guys have got to pick up a copy this magazine, it puts the US mags to shame) said that BMW and Audi wishes they could position a car in their ranges like MB has done with the CLS, we'll see if that pans out. Again, I personally wanted a true 2-door coupe based on the E-Class, but there hasn't been one since 1995, and what a car that was, btw.

    I had several issues with CLS. I say had because one of them was not and issue as it turns out. I'm pretty much cool with the CLS as long as IT IS NOT the styling direction of other future Mercedes-Benzes. That fear *seems* to be unfounded. The next S won't look like the CLS. My other issue is that while they did make the interior a little different, they didn't go far enough. I'm not sure what all colors and woods will be offered on the CLS, but they should be from the Designo group and they should be standard order items on this car (none of that extra charge stuff), you know make is different and special. Secondly I would have liked to have seen a different interior design, not just and updated E-Class interior.

    I still don't know about this car. I guess I'll have to see it in person. Too bad the concept wasn't at Detroit.

    M
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    As a guy who loves Lexus, you can count me as another one who really thinks the CLS looks fantastic.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Here's more on CLS:

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=00689032

    It's a brilliant tactical move by MB. It brought out E first, waits for the opposition to bring out 5/GS/A6/M/RL/STS, and then replies with the CLS, which the opposition has no answer for. And E is already the dominant player in its segment, in US and worldwide.

    Notice how MB finally joins the DOHC bandwagon. Acura is the only SOHC holdout, but of course Honda's SOHC is powerful enough.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "...and then replies with the CLS, which the opposition has no answer for."

    Hmmmm, ever hear of the new (as in soon to be released) 6-Series BMW? ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    What exactly is it that the CLS does that other 4 doors don't? The whole marketing shtick around a 4 door coupe is crap: it has 4 doors, it looks like a sedan, it is a sedan. It just offers the S and E class benefits with a different, swoopier design, and that's that. The only thing they're doing is checking whether the luxury sedan market supports 3 different product lines, as opposed to the traditional 2 that everybody has settled for. But it's like Saab calling their wagon a sports-hatch. I mean, come on. Let's not be suckers for marketing labels...

    You want to see what a real 4 door coupe looks like, check out the Mazda RX. The Merc CLS has *ntohing* in comon with it, and everything in common with the usual sedan proportions.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So noted. I'm having a problem with the side view of the production car vs. the concept. It didn't quite hold up.

    mariner7,

    Actually Mercedes is going back to DOHC engine design, not just joining any bandwagon. Their last group of DOHC engines was from 1989-1997.

    pablo_l,

    I don't think of us are falling for any marketing labels, everyone clearly sees this is just a swoopier sedan, but that's what market presence does for MB, they and some others (Saab for example) can get away with it. Audi scrapped plans to do a 4-door coupe version of the A4 right before the CLS was announced. I can only imagine what that car would have looked like.

    shipo,

    The 6-Series and CLS will occupy the same price space, but that's about it. The CLS won't hope to match the dynamics of the 6-Series and the 6 isn't going to match the rear-seat room/practicality/luxury of the CLS. Really Autoweek is right; there is nothing else quite like the CLS right now, well except for maybe the Maserati Quattroporte, another swoopy coupish-like (styling) sedan.

    M
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Ever heard of CL and CLK? Those are 6 series competitors.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, do they have a manual transmission? No? Well then I guess I haven't heard of them. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • johncaliforniajohncalifornia Member Posts: 28
    Let's see, it's based on the E-class but bigger on the outside and, I'll bet, smaller on the inside. It's got sporty pretentions but it's got four doors and is heavy. Is the CLS supposed to be stylish alternative to the stodgy E-series and the pricey S-series?

    If so, then it's a completely unnecessary car -- style for style's sake -- and a complete refutation of everything Daimler Benz used to stand for.

    But then, Damiler-Benz are gone. Sometimes I see the three-pointed star and momentarily forget. When the star is attached to a CLS, however, I need no further reminders.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Reguardless of the transmissions the CLK and to a lesser extant the CL are competitors to the 6-Series, as are the Lexus SC430, and Jaguar XK8. All of these cars are aimed at folks who want a luxury/GT car and have no need for 4-doors.

    johncalifornia,

    Good points, but things have changed...they've discovered that "style" helps sell even more cars. But you're right this isn't the same old stodgy company it used to be.

    The car is on paper, pointless, but they'll probably sell every one that they bring over.

    M
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    "The car is on paper, pointless, but they'll probably sell every one that they bring over"

    Wanna bet ?

    I have to agree with john. Counting the CLS, how many trims/models does MB now have ?

    C/CL/CLK/CLS
    E
    S/SL/SLK

    All for what ? MB remained mired in 3rd place in lux car sales in the US, down from numero uno just a few years ago. Would the CLS push MB car sales higher ? GM's Cadillac is breathing down MB's neck for 3rd place, and may do it this year. I just don't get it with MB and umpteenth new models.

    See Lexus don't need no stinking gazillion trims to be #1 in less than 15 yrs. Lexus business model seems to be much better than MBs. Lexus will come up with a very refreshing redesign, add hybrid technology, improve safety features, and make electronics much better integrated. And retain their top selling position regardless of what MB, BMW, Audi/VW does.

    Unlike lenscap and ljflx, I dislike the CLS. It is unnecessary and a bloody waste of good money.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No, Lexus doesn't need "no stinking gazillion trims to be #1", all they need is 1 very popular car and one really popular SUV to get a number 1 sales title. Meanwhile the GS, IS and LX don't do squat for those impressive press releases about sales numbers. In fairness LS is the seller for its segment. However you should quit trying to mislead everyone into thinking that Lexus' sales might is based on an all-star lineup of high sellers because it isn't.

    The fact remains that Mercedes' sales are more spread out and they aren't as dependent on just few models for their sales numbers. The C, E, S, SL, and CLK all pull their weight. Lexus depends on the ES, RX and to a lesser extant the GX for all their sales glory. The IS, GS, LX don't do squat for the sales press releases.

    Are you ever going to understand the Mercedes' pricing may have just the slightest effect on them selling more cars than Lexus? Where is it written that sales = best cars? All this talk about sales sounds like GM type rhetoric to me. This isn't beneath the great Lexus?

    On these points all I can say is apply the correct quote.....from your post #4209.

    "Yada yada yada.... Really very boring stuff this.......Very boring indeed. Give it a rest will ya ?"

    About the CLS, whether or not you see the point or not is irrelevant, it will most likely be in hot demand as any newly introduced Benz has been in the last few years. The MB "business model" isn't as good a Lexus', but yet Lexus has expressed interest in offering more models to broaden their appeal. Hmmmmmm. Example: Lexus tries to cover the CLK and SL segment with one car, yet doesn't come close to comparing to the SL and is only competitive with the CLK. Wise marketing if you want to limit the appeal of the brand. Meanwhile Mercedes gets double the market presence (and sales since they're so important to you) in the convertible/GT segment. If Mercedes can't do anything else they know how to market their cars. They are a master of this.

    As far as seeing the point, I see no point for the IS300, as hardly anyone looking for performance is shopping Lexus, ditto the GS430. Witness their lack of sales. Yet a LS430 with a 4 second 0-60 time has a "point". Right. To you a Benz is a waste of money, period. Why would the CLS be any different?

    When Lexus comes up with a "refreshing" design, please let me know. All I see in their lineup right now is bland or ugly.

    M
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    My comments regarding the 6-Series were made in fun. If and when the time comes for me to buy a car in that class, I will definitely be considering all options. Well, maybe not all of the options, to tell the truth, there is nothing that Lexus has produced in the last ten years that has left me anything other than cold.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    No escaping it. Style and looks sell. You think Julia Roberts is the best paid actress because she's a great Shakespearean actress?

    CLS's gonna be the biggest thing in the luxury market in years, outdistancing that whale lookalike 6 by miles. There's a gorgeous photo in autospies.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Doubt very much that either car will sell anything but small volumes of cars so it's probably a who cares thing anyway. It looks great in photos (way better than the 6) but likely is an impractical car for most buyers in the segment. MB is targeting a niche (they hardly want to cannibalizer their own sales) and that's it. With that said I do think MB is stretching itself too far with so many models and model variations. From a marketing an image perspective though it is what a class leader (in any business) thinks it has to do. But you can only fight a war on so many fronts before you wound yourself. It's also a costly approach to business and anybody who buys an ordinary E, S, M or C class car is partially paying for all those variations and niche cars. Same with BMW. I hate paying for something I don't get no matter how much I can afford.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    > In fairness LS is the seller for its segment ..

    In the US. Not in Europe.

    > anybody who buys an ordinary E, S, M or C
    > class car is partially paying for all those
    > variations and niche cars. I hate paying for
    > something I don't get no matter how much I can
    > afford.

    You feel better when the company you buy from makes $8B in *profits*? I actually prefer to see more money going into R&D, and it could be argued the Merc model is more customer-oriented, doing everything possible to give people *exactly* the car they want. But at the end of the day as long as companies don't use the money unethically the only thing that should mater to us is whether we're happy or not with the product we got and the transaction in general.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They're in business to make money so it doesn't bother me at all. We all use Microsoft and it makes more money than anyone plus its' products have helped my personal business immensely. Actually it can be argued that the more successful a company is the better its future products will be. Toyota pours tons of cash into R&D and at the same time gives you the biggest bang for your buck and a world class car with the LS. It also put a lot of investment money into efficient production techniques which resulted in keeping their prices low and forcing the competition to remain low. The automotive industry is far too competitive on a global scale for any company to get overly greedy.

    But ultimately you are correct - all that matters is customer satisfaction.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    It seems that you are saying that LS430 is so good that it outsells all those billions of Mercedes models all by itself.

    Hmmmmmmmmm....
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    > They're in business to make money so it
    > doesn't bother me at all

    Absolutely, but so is MB. All I am saying is that the $8B in profits could also be construed by someone as an argument to show they overcharge their customers and don't pass on the efficiency and productivity gain they achieve with their customers' money back. Which incidentally would also lead me to counter that ultimately it doesn't matter.

    Be it a Benz or a Lexus, we buy them for perceived value, and not for actual production cost considerations. Thus, whether they stuff profits under their mattresses -the Lexus model-, or whether they chose to invest into a slew of new product lines -the MB model- does not really matter.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Mercedes lags behind Lexus in the all important North American market is because of the black circles CR gives them in Reliability Surverys. Nobody wants to spend 80G's on a piece of crap.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Last time I checked, we were supposed to be having fun here. That said, with comments like:

    "CLS's gonna be the biggest thing in the luxury market in years, outdistancing that whale lookalike 6 by miles."

    and:

    "Nobody wants to spend 80G's on a piece of crap."

    It seems that this topic has gotten entirely too personal. As such, it's time to go have some fun elsewhere. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • johncaliforniajohncalifornia Member Posts: 28
    Mariner, if my dog looked like Juila Roberts I'd shave its butt and make it walk backwards.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I don't know what you mean, but laugh anyway.

    motown, I'm pretty sure MB sells more 80+ cars than everybody, combined. So there must be a lot of wealthy junk-loving people out there.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Only goes to show money doesn't equate to intelligence; aka; Paris Hilton
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "Thus, whether they stuff profits under their mattresses -the Lexus model-, or whether they chose to invest into a slew of new product lines -the MB model- does not really matter"

    Ljflx's point on MB spreading itself too thin is quite important here. Let us assume that you are correct that MB is *investing* their R&D money in a slew of new products, how come they cannot invest more into quality and more reliable vehicle ? Do you see that they are doing this *investing* to improve their image or to improve their bottom line ? Methinks their image is suffering big time right now, with all those black circles from CR, and ditto their bottomline. Now contrast that with Lexus, they spend money on R&D (how else would they put together such world-class cars like the LS, GX, LX, etc ?) It takes spending money to make money, but gotta be spent in the right place ! So Lexus spends its money *wisely*, improving and refining quality output, new technologies, new designs, and setting standards in customer service, while MB spends its money (some would say, unwisely) churning out kadzillion models, with poor customer service. Maybe MB thinks that they can blindfold the buying public's eye against their lack-luster reliability records. The more MB cars become less reliable, the more new models they churn out. That, IMO, is their business model. Only time will tell if this approach will work in the long run. Guess we'll see, won't we ?
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      Ah yes, the typical MB argument. Any Industrial Organization class will tell you that the consumer prefers variety. MB offers a car for practically anyone. It's good marketing on their part. If they can attract an owner at the C class Entry point and give them a good experience, the owner will likely move up the MB chain as income increases. All these predictions of doom for MB are grossly overstated. Every car company has it's bad times.

    I have to agree with Merc on his comments about the Blandness of the Lexus line. They came out in 1990 with excellent and cutting edge cars. (LS, ES, SC) Today, they don't offer anything especially appealing. The IS has little or no fit, the GS is lackluster, and the LS430 has become the More reliable knockoff of the S Class. Don't even get me started on the ES or SC.

    People will pay a premium for exclusiveness and "perceived prestige." The Lexus maybe better in areas of reliablity, service, etc, but MB still has originality and prestige on their side.

    Until Lexus gets a grip on producing original designs, they're always going to be knocked in this department.

    I've seen the pictures of the CLS, interesting concept, but I didn't think it was anything special in looks. Just pure subjective opinion here. To be honest, the only car I liked was the old XJ8. Say what you want about Jaguar, but their designs provoked a real response from people. (except for the X-Type..Yeck!)

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Exactly what I think. MB's on the offensive to cover a weak defense right now. So the new model variations and poweful engines are really a way of supporting a weakening brand name. Remember you still hear MB execs who are in denial about the quality decline. I read one comment last week from one of their top guys who said their cars are as good as ever. Even MB's most loyal fans know better than that. I just watched the HBO show about the US upset of the Soviets in the 1980 Olympics. Comments like that remind me of the Soviet feeling that no one could stay close to them in a game let alone beat them in the 1980 Olympics.

    As for all that variety - I honestly can't keep track of all their cars. It's a bit like having 300 satellite stations. I have Dish Network and they added some new stations a while back and I just realized it today.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "Until Lexus gets a grip on producing original designs, they're always going to be knocked in this department."

    IMHO, "originality" is not the problem...only the LS lacks originality. IMHO they could use more "appealing" exterior styling.

    Still, it is pretty impressive that they've had such success as a company despite the bland styling, less-diverse product line, and relative lack of prestige.
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