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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Can we get over the obsession with the word "enthusiast?"
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    Ok, warthog. I must be a luxuryist.

    merc1. I think the germans are big in luxury. All cars costing 60K and up must both drive well and be luxurious. I think the S is the best looking. The 745i is second. LS is last. But all are nice. BTW. I am a german convert. I've owned E and S classes. I moved to the LS because I thought it was more luxurious on the inside where it counts (to me). I stayed in the LS camp because it was so reliable. I'm picking up 04 LS ultra to replace my 01 Ultra in three weeks. It it weren't for the Ultra trim, I'd still be in an S and living with its mechanical problems.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, what we really need to "get over" is the characterizations of each other, and stick to the cars ....
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    I am one of those 50% enthusiasts you speak about, owning an E-Class and LS430. That said, I do not believe that you, as simply a Lexus owner, are any less of the enthusiast that me or one of our "arm-chair" enthusiasts. As aggie76 pointed out above, we are all auto enthusiasts by virtue of the fact we are on these boards.

    'nuff said??

    Sorry Pat
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, that's a very good stopping point before we get into too much trouble.

    There isn't anyone participating in this discussion that cannot be considered an enthusiast - else they wouldn't be here.

    Frankly, it's just silly to accuse anyone who is a regular contributor here of not being an enthusiast. You might not agree with the person's opinions, but that doesn't make the person any less of an enthusiast than anyone else.

    So let's move on and get back to the cars.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Pat: "There isn't anyone participating in this discussion that cannot be considered an enthusiast - else they wouldn't be here"

    Exactly my point. OK enough already.

    My colleague's 2003 C230 Kompressor/6-speed was a blast to drive. Did I tell you already ? As an LS owner, that was a different kinda ride for me. Taut steering, crisp and precise gear shifts, handles curves like a champ. I thought I was driving a 5-er. A little annoying problem with the electrical didn't do much to dampen my enthusiasm (that word again) for this car. MB makes darn good cars, just sad to see it messed up with little stuff like electrical circuitry....

    Would I do the LS again ? Let me just say that I cannot wait for MY 2007. I will pay CASH for a 2007 LS4/5xx. I have been saving for it (thanks to home valuation here in San Diego hitting the roof), and although I have the cash right now, I won't sweat the 2004 model. I like it, but not as much as the *promised* MY2007 version. Did I tell you I cannot wait for Oct 2006 ? See, I plan to put my money where my mouth is, no armchair quarterbacking for me.

    Have a good weekend everyone.
  • cornellpinoycornellpinoy Member Posts: 196
    I signed up for the C-Spot drive party right after your posted it here last month. Just got back from the event and it was a LOT of fun!
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    and while I get plenty of Lexus versus Mercedes talk up a work and don't need the extra above, I'd like to venture off just a tad on some of the Jag X-type comments.

    Just curious why the general disdain for the X-type. I don't own one, but I've spent a little time in one. I just don't get the hatred of it. Really size, luxury and peformance wise it is very similar to the old Mk I and Mk II Jag sedans of the 50's and 60's. Good decendent if you ask me except for the AWD part. I would prefer the more traditional RWD. I actually don't mind the platform sharing (just something that we're going to have to accept in today's market) but the car seems well composed and for those that knock the interior, it seemed much nicer that the c-class and 3-series that it competes against.

    The only big thing I can think of is that people have come to think of Jaguar as only being the XJ8 and anything other than that they reflexively don't like as a "cheap" Jaguar. I'll have to try to look it up, but I wonder what my '67 Jag Mark II cost in relation to the rest of the market? Probably was a "cheap" Jag then too.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    I think part of the problem is that you could ask 10 people what a Jaguar "should be" and you'll get 10 different answers. Anything from "sports cars" from people that think of the old XK's, E-types and the XK8.....to sporty cars (the previos and the light, fast sedans of the 60's) to "Luxury" the old Mk V through X's and the XJ6, XJ8 and XJ12's. I'm guessing that's at the root of the issue.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The S-Class Sport option doesn't cost 7K, try 5K. Plus you get much more than a set of tires, unlike the LS430. You keep saying this over and over like you're getting a great deal for 100 bucks when all you're getting is some tires, per you (I haven't looked at the Lexus site to see the details). The Sport LS looks like the regular one, whereas the S is stunning in its sportswear. The MB sport package totally transforms the S-Class, in appearance and capability. If you're not going to compare equally equipped cars then what is the point? You missed the whole point in my post about an enthusiast. I clearly stated that ownership doesn't dictate being one nor is it the sole indication, but like always if you don't own one you're an "arm-chair" enthusiast and couldn't possibly know anything. When you drove them you learned everything per the theory here, I didn't and don't get anything from the same (non ownership) experience with a Mercedes.

    M
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    but why isn't this topic in "News and Views" rather than sedans? This topic is a broad one that would normally be in news and views....plus I seldom venture this way and forget that this interesting topic is out there. ;-)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Don't your own comments make you nothing but an arm-chair enthusiast - even on your favorite brand? I didn't miss your point at all. I've driven and rode in the S-class many times. Heck - I was even chaffeurred home in one on a return trip from JFK. Best limo I've ever been in. It's a wonderful car. My experience is simple - rides great - a tad less graceful than an LS430, handles very well - a tad bit better than an LS430 - though it probably does handle noticably better than the old LS400. You mis-understand my point about the LS 430 Euro-sport. It was made to be a better handler than the base S-class. It was not made to be a sport-edition car the way the MB sport was. The latter gives up too much of its great ride - from everything I've read - I have no experience here. But the LS430 sport retains nearly all of its great ride and outhandles the base S-class car. For that - you hardly have to pay extra. But 80% of LS430 buyers prefer the non-sport suspension car as do I'm sure 80% or more of the S-classs buyers. That speaks volumes about this segment and says very clearly that the enthusiasm here is for luxury not sport.

    BMW 7 - It sold a record level 20K cars last year but historically its best year previously was around 18k cars. It usually sells in the 14-15k range and I'll bet most of its buyers do not take advantage of its sporty heritage. I wouldn't say that about the 5 series though.

    Maybach - it was obvious to me that sales were slow when I saw as many as 4 in inventory in the local sunday paper at Ray Catena. That's a lot of cars for just one dealership given the very low production element of this car. As well that was only a partial listing of available cars so there may have been even more on hand. MB will be making a mistake if they launch a mid $100K figure Maybach car. That is too close in price to the higher end MB's and will make people wonder where does one brand end and another begin. The big mistake they made seems to be that they made the car far too close to an S600 in the first place. It doesn't have enough of a new brand image to justify a $200k price premium. On the other hand the Rolls has no visual resemblance to any BMW car and is very unique. I guess that's the advantage of buying the brand rather than creating it.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Seminole_kev - because it started out being a comparison discussion about high-end sedans and it evolved from there.

    If you use the subscriptions feature, you'll be able to follow all of your favorite topics conveniently no matter where they reside. Actually, very few people use the Board views anymore - there are so many ways to find things these days.

    If you aren't familiary with Subscriptions, check out the Help file linked on the left side of the page. :)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In of all places - the January edition of Architectual Digest with a focus on Mercedes interior design team in Milan. It was interesting to read about how the approval process of automobile design works and is balanced between interior and exterior design teams. The latter group in conjunction with the engineers still wields the power but some of the power is shifting to the interior design team for the first time. Dental Office reading but overall AD did a big story on automotive design in its January edition that is worth reading.

    Pat - Edmunds gets its third straight JD Powers award. Edmunds is getting up there with Lexus.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Now that I'm about to order the 2004 LS430 I looked back at how well the cars I looked at in 2001 have done as per Edmunds used car reports. The 5 cars I looked extensively at were the 2001 E430 4-matic (judged too small but desired initially because of the AWD), the Audi A8L (always loved its looks and AWD but overall found it disappointing), the S430 and S500 and the LS430. The S-class cars, particularly the S500 and the LS430 were far superior to both of the other cars for my tastes and preferences.

    The prices and residuals were - E430 $61.5k with a residual of $39k. Today the dealer retail is $37k and the consumers rated the car at 8.2. The A8L was $72.4k and had a residual of $39k. Today the dealer retail is a bit under $38k and consumer rating is 7.9. The S430 was $76.1 and had a residual of $49k. Today the dealer retail is $46k and the consumer rating is 8.3. The S500 was $85.3k and had a residual of $55k. Today the dealer retail is $52k and the consumer rating is the same 8.3. Finally the LS430 was $61.5k and had a residual of $37.5k. Today the dealer retail is $42k and the consumer rating is a sky high 96 (pretty clear this group of buyesr are real happy). Since the residuals were my buyouts I would have expected all the cars to have dealer retail above those figures but only the LS430 can make that claim - by a fairly wide margin.

    I have no doubt I made the best choice then and will go for another ride. But some of these guys have really been burned on the residuals and the strength of the dollar worsens it even more.
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    Has anyone seriously looked at this newcomer? I'm trading my 01 LS for an 04 shortly, but I just had to check this one out. I really liked it. The interior was gorgeous. I didn't take it for a test drive as I didn't want to get hooked. I doubt I would buy one though. Even the V8 has a gas guzzler tax (15/20 hw). It priced like an LS Ultra. But I doubt it would hold its value as well. But really, if you can find a VW dealer, take a peek.
  • ikotoyanikotoyan Member Posts: 4
    Can anything be done about how mb uses its teleaid, it says right in the contract that they can listen in on people without them knowing, so now i can have people listening in on conversations in the car. is a car not a private place anymore?
    anything all of us who want a safety feature , but dont want to allow anyone to listen in on us as they wish can do about this?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well its pretty much like I stated before, you've only rode and driven the S, but haven't owned one, but you are much more of an expert than me, though I've done the same things. Makes sense.

    The fact that Lexus designed the sport version of the LS to out handle the base S-Class is their problem not Mercedes'. What kind of excuse is that? Secondly, I have not seen one single report in which an S-Class with the sport option gave up too much ride comfort, nor have I experienced it myself, having actually driven a 2002 S500 Sport more than a few times.

    I never said anyone buying an S-Class was buying it for sport, my point is that the option is there and it's a real sport option, unlike the LS, which is merely a tire upgrade. The S Sport package transforms the car in looks and capability. Guess what the S-Class now offers just the option of upgraded wheels and tires too (without the body work). My point is that with an S-Class Sport you'll pay more and you'll get more than the LS' so-called "sport" option.

    You should read up on the 7-Series board, they talk about driving far more than anyone on this board. The sportiness of the 7-Series is indeed a selling point, and if we're guessing you know I'd guess that more 7 owners use it than S or LS buyers.

    You're right about Maybach. I've said all along the car was too close to Mercedes inside and out. It is too much like a super S600 than an entirely different i.e. special car. Both Maybach and Rolls fell short in 2003. I said from the beginning that neither of them would be able to sell 1000 cars a year in the U.S. There are just too many high-end cars competing for the most elusive of buyers in the 200k+ market. The dealer here has had one on the floor for a few months now too. Still they did move over 160 of them last year, at 300K+ a pop, and that was from June, not a full year.

    Technically Mercedes didn't "create" Maybach, they revived it. Wilhelm Maybach was instrumental in the very first "Mercedes" cars and the brand the carried his name made some of the best cars on earth long ago. I know, I know it doesn't matter in today's market and isn't memorable to anyone under 80 years old..lol.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Correction to the above post. The sales goal for Maybach in the U.S. was 400-500 cars a year, not 1000. The 1000 unit goal was for worldwide sales.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    Actually you must be corrected. The S-class sport models are just wheels/tires and bodywork upgrades.

    The LS430 includes wheel/tire upgrade and a slight suspension upgrade.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    "Well its pretty much like I stated before, you've only rode and driven the S, but haven't owned one, but you are much more of an expert than me, though I've done the same things. Makes sense."

    Well, ljflx, owns a LS430 and has driven S-class. Meanwhile you have driven one and not the other and you write like you have driven both, which you obviously haven't.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually you must be corrected. The Sport models have firmer Airmatic shock settings than the regular S-Class cars. Not to mention the S has an adjustable air suspension to start with. Plus there is the ABC option. A sportier S-Class can be had, one that is sportier than any version of the LS430 at least up until now.

    "Meanwhile you have driven one and not the other and you write like you have driven both, which you obviously haven't."

    Wrong again, obviously you haven't been paying attention. Lets stay current here. I've driven the LS430. Granted things may have changed for 2004 in the LS' favor, as I haven't driven an 04' LS. So I'll take his word for the 2004 model.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    I apologize for the slight error on the part of the airmatic suspension. But you were still mistaken by saying the LS430 is merely a tire upgrade.

    And as you say "ABC is a option". That is another option on top of the already steep $5K+ premium for a sport package that returns only minor improvements in handling.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    "Wrong again, obviously you haven't been paying attention. Lets stay current here. I've driven the LS430."

    Right again, I haven't been paying attention. I actually do some work during the 8am to 5pm work hours.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I hate to keep saying this, but go back over the posts here. I only said the LS' sport option was a tire upgrade because ljfx said it was, I clearly stated that I hadn't checked the Lexus site to confirm any of what he said, it really wasn't that big of a deal. I'm not the one you need to mention this to.

    Secondly, the ABC provides more than minor handling improvements. Look at the handling numbers for the S-Class in the last Car and Driver comparo with ABC+Sport pk compared to the previous S-Classes they tested without either, hardly minor differences I agree it is an expensive option but it is there.

    "I actually do some work during the 8am to 5pm work hours."

    Must we go here? I'm glad you do some work during those hours. If you'll notice most of the time I post late night, hint: I work a different shift from you.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    You mention ABC+sport package. the standard sport package does not include ABC. Is ABC not another couple of thousand $$$ option on top of the regular sport package? And as I remember the regular sport package for $5K+ offers slight improvements in handling, basically due to the tire size and compound difference.

    In my last post I was referring to the slight improvements in handling with just the sport package, not including ABC. I get C&D and read the review. The S500 is a great car with or without sport and ABC.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Here is your paragraph about the sport option, I see no reference to Ifjx comments about a tire change only. I own an LS430 ultra (01) and there is a noticable difference when I set the car in Sport mode (without changing the tires)

    I have not driven the 04 Sport but would assume it has been upgrade substantually.

    Here is what is available with my Sport Suspension..Stiffer springs, more aggressive shock absorber damping rates, a thicker rear stablizer bar for reduced understeer and special suspension bushings for a more immediate feel of the road, 17 in. tires.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I never said anyone buying an S-Class was buying it for sport, my point is that the option is there and it's a real sport option, unlike the LS, which is merely a tire upgrade. The S Sport package transforms the car in looks and capability. Guess what the S-Class now offers just the option of upgraded wheels and tires too (without the body work). My point is that with an S-Class Sport you'll pay more and you'll get more than the LS' so-called "sport" option.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    (sorry, that's a worn out phrase, isn't it)

    Back to your separate corners folks. No one is going to win this and the rest of us don't want to wade through it.

    Thanks.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Thank you, Host.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
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  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    What do you folks think about the next STS? It seems like Cadillac got it right better than ever (on paper at least). With MBs quality issues and the BMW Bangle Butt era, now seems as good of time as any for Cadillac to sneak back in with a good flagship luxury sedan. Look for it at the New York Auto Show.
    Here are the photos:

    http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_1_web.jpg

    http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_2_web.jpg

    http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_4_web.jpg

    http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_3_web.jpg

    http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_6_web.jpg
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Lexus is going to debut a concept sports coupe at the NY Auto show on april 8, 2004:

    http://prn.newscom.com/cgi-bin/pub/s?f=PRN/prnpub&p1=20040324- -LAW036&xtag=PRN-prnphotos-37665&redir=preview&tr=1&a- mp;row=1
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I wonder if that is the same car syswei posted a few weeks ago? But I don't think so. It looks more like the next gen SC and it looks real sharp as well.

    By the way I am hearing that the next LS will be more close in design to the LFS concept than the new GS is. I've also been told that they will have it in an AWD option and that a hybrid version will have over 400HP. Definitely a 2007 car but with a likely spring 2006 debut.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I think the STS is one fine looking saloon. It is better inside and out than the new 5 and we know it will be much cheaper. This car could help put Caddy past MB in the sales race in 2004. I think this car will be a hit just like the CTS.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Once again, turning things into a personal argument is inappropriate. This is the last "unofficial" warning, folks. (I'm speaking to those whose messages were removed.)
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    the new Maserati Quattroporte? Beautiful car, and if I had a dealer remotely close and was in the market for an S-class type of car, I'd definetly give it a shot. Nice looking car that brings a little bit of pizzazz to a somewhat staid segment.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    The only coupe Lexus is working on for a near-term launch is the next-generation IS. Right at introduction there will be a coupe, sedan and convertible, all with more than one engine choice.

    Since the new IS is scheduled to come to market sometime in the next 12-18 months, my bet is the car at NY is either a concept version or production version (labeled as a concept) of the next IS coupe.

    The car shown in NY will be unveiled April 8 at a press conference and have a V8 engine.

    Are you planning on attending the NY show?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't think that is the next IS. I think it's the nect SC. Remember Clemens said every car will be redone by 2007. The SC came out a few months after the LS in 2001. The timing fits for a concept right about now. I also think that the LFS style will really be reflected deeply in the 2007 LS. Lexus knows that the LS400 is the car that made its name in 1990 and the new brand image and styling will be led by the LS again. I also think the HPX will debut at the same time as the next gen LS. In fact maybe they will blitz the market with a new LS, SC and HPX at the same time. Makes sense if they are going to a more consolidated styling theme. I know this - I'm looking foward to the 2004 LS - which I will take in a few weeks - and am real anxious to see that 2007 LS. I think its going to be a knockout with plenty of variety and a hybrid engine as options as well. Toyota got a huge vault of cash - they can do just about whatever they want right now. Plus they will be due a lot of royalties on their hybrid technology.

    I wonder when and how they will re-design the big suv's.

    Yes - I will go to the show.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    'much cheaper. '

    I do not know about that. If SRX XLR is any indication Cadillac is going to price its cars as high as imports. Remember they are not seeking to be value leaders but the standard of the world
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    the STS exterior looks no worse than the new 5, but that's no accomplishment. Agreed, the interior is much better than the new 5. But that's not what BMW is fundamentally about. We'll have to wait to see how the STS performs, won't we?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Just remember that this is no 5 series sized car -- that job is more or less the CTS's -- this puppy has a 116" wheelbase if my memory serves.

    This is an updated sedan de ville -- or at least an updated STS -- the last time I drove an STS it was a very very very nice land barge...sorta like driving my sofa in all the good ways.

    Now the Magna Ride and AWD and other stuff may make it an alternative to a Phaeton or an A8L or a 7 serires -- and, hopefully it will be priced like a 5 series BMW or A6 Audi.

    Don't hold your breath, you might turn blue.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Obviously the Cadillac is much better than the 5. If you were referring to the previous 5
    Series, you might have a case but not with the new. Cadillac has a better stance all round.
    image
    image
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Maybe not regarding MSRP, but with the inevitable factory to dealer and consumer incentives from GM, they will be less expensive to buy. Here in the Boston area, CTS have big discounts as does SRX. Initially I saw ads for the XLR at MSRP, but I think the discounting has already begun...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Toyota, Honda & Nissan dominate the most reliable list. They also dominate the most satisfying list, accounting for 21 of the 33 models. BMW does fine too, with four.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6960
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Interesting second paragraph. It's what I've been saying all along. I know three people buying new cars right now and they all went out and bought CR's April edition.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Who knows how accurate it is, but the UK publication Autoexpress is reporting there will be a hybrid GS 350 that goes on sale in August 2005 with a 300hp 3.5 V6 mated to a 170hp electric motor. They claim the car will get 60mpg. And the following year they're saying an LS 500 will appear with a 400hp 5.0 V8 mated with a 200hp electric motor.

    I guess only time will tell if this is rumor or fact.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    When is the new STS supposed to be available at dealers? Has Caddy dropped the Seville name? Is this known only as an STS and I'd assume SLS for the less performance oriented version.

    The interior appears to be a bit of a dissapointment, better than the 5 series for sure but not up to an Audi or Mercedes standard.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    Yes, Cadillac will drop the Seville name and there will be no "SLS" trim. The interior not up to the MB/Audi standard? Why is that? I mean obviously we haven't been physically inside the car but in terms of design and appearance, it's certainly no worse that any other car. First off, audi interiors are boring. The A8's is a little better but there are buttons all over the lower console along with MMI which I thought was supposed to eliminate the problem of too many buttons. the current A6 doesn't even have a freakin nav screen in the dash. The new A6 looks all business like, not inviting at all. i won't even touch MB interiors. COMAND is simply nonsense. The look and design are pretty average, nothing to write home about and the quality is not what you'd expect for something costing as much as they do (especially the S class).
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