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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Looks like the starship enterprise or some crazy romulan warbird inside.
    The screen looks like a warp core, and the steering comes straight from a Chevy silvarado. Its no where near the cadillac.
    I bet you in quality it will be no where close to the STS.
    Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Series Dashboard
    image
    2005 Audi A6 Interior; European Model Shown
    image

    Gm is catching up to the best in interior design, quality and execution
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I am trying to decide whether to buy a Mercedes E55 or SL55. The cars are truly beautiful and I am sure they are exciting to drive. If I trade my Porshe, I will lose a lot of money, but I don't drive it that often. I have been reading the Mercedes Boards, and I can see that many people have reliability problems. In the past, I would trade without hesitation. There are so many excellent choices. I feel a little shallow agonizing over this.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .let me see if I am following along correctly.

    1. New STS ushers out the old Seville, period. STS will be the "only" offering (at this time) no "detuned" less sporty version like the old SLS?

    2. New '05 Audi interior reminds "us" of a Chevy interior and current Audi interiors are boring?

    Note: OK, I guess I see some similarities in the picures presented above -- what does the STS interior look like -- for comparison?

    Note2: Boring is a subjective term, the editors of such Car Guy (male or female "guy") publications as Car and Driver, Automobile and Road and Track seem to use the Audi interiors as "the standard that they hold others up to for comparison" -- often resorting to "this is an almost Audi-like interior, it is so good" or "the Audi interiors are "jewel like" with industry leading fit and finish.

    Note3: Please observe this says nothing for or against Cadillac especially the new STS. The write ups about the new BMW interiors are pretty much all over the board, some like them, some don't, some editors calling them "stark."

    3. The new Cadillac will be "better" than the German cars? In what way?

    Am I correct that the new STS will indeed have a 116" wheelbase? Wouldn't that contribute to a "less dynamic" chassis? Wouldn't that contribute to a more comfortable, smooth, touring car, but, less to some of the dynamics that Audi and BMW (at least) are often praised for having?

    The fact that the brand new Audi dealer is next to one of the "best" Cadillac dealers in Cincinnati, will compel me to look at the STS, especially if it is priced between $45 and $55K (which is where I assume the new Audi A6 will come to).

    I would only consider the STS with Magnaride and AWD and if a "sport package" is on the check sheet, I guess I would also be compelled to test the Caddy and the Audi back to back with similar sporting intentions.

    Perhaps this is unfair, as it seems like the new STS should be put up against the Phaeton V8 or the Audi A8L (or perhaps even the A8) -- then the Cadillac will most certainly win the MSRP race, to say nothing of a GMAC incentive here and there.

    Since there seems to be some real passion (pro) for the Cadillac here on this forum, I am keen to find out more. And, since the Audi and the Caddy are, as yet, not on sale, the debate will be, by necessity, based on the pre-release info and preview tests (if any).

    Over.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    You asked
    ". The new Cadillac will be "better" than the German cars? In what way?"
    In overall quality.

    You asked " what does the STS interior look like -- for comparison?"

    http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_6_web.jpg

    You asked "Am I correct that the new STS will indeed have a 116" wheelbase? Wouldn't that contribute to a "less dynamic" chassis? Wouldn't that contribute to a more comfortable, smooth, touring car, but, less to some of the dynamics that Audi and BMW (at least) are often praised for having?"

    Not necesarily

    you said
    "Perhaps this is unfair, as it seems like the new STS should be put up against the Phaeton V8 or the Audi A8L (or perhaps even the A8) -- then the Cadillac will most certainly win the MSRP race, to say nothing of a GMAC incentive here and there."

    No, remember STS is american. So its Amerisized. That is the american character. You get more sheetmetal for your buck in America
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    The A8L and Phaeton's wheelbases are considerably longer. Try 121" or the same as the S class. The CTS is considerably larger than the 3 for the same money and that's the same philosophy with the STS and SRX.

    In theory a larger wheelbase will make turn-in less crisp, but this isn't a narrow focused automobile. BMW favors sporting intentions over passenger comfort. Most other luxury brands try to give the best of both worlds. Would good is world class handling if you can't even fit decent sized adults in the back?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .of the STS with the 5 series and the A6 is "price class?" Obviously, I have not seen the new STS or the new A6 in person.

    It just seems that the STS, past tense, I grant you, was much larger than the 5 series BMW or the A6.

    What would appear to be the case, is that the STS would attract buyers looking for either larger cars or within the price range (BTW what is the price range of the new STS) of the new STS.

    I have a current model allroad (an A6 by another name) and I can't seem to find its wheelbase, but I assume it is less than 116.4".

    My point has nothing to do with challenging the "quality" assumption -- for I cannot presume to know what the quality of either the 2005 STS or 2005 A6 will be.

    I am rooting for Cadillac, don't get me wrong -- but I have been a long time Audi driver and have test driven multiple STS's (obviously NOT the new one), and they were very nice and the Northstar engine was potent -- but the sporting capabilities of these current gen STS cars was, er, "muted" (especially when compared with the Germans).

    I looked at the edmunds preview and 255 x 45 x 18" tires are encouraging for a sea change from the old STS to this new one.

    Like I said, this is getting interesting.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'm curious. I can understand going from Porsche (911?) to sedan, but would you mind sharing your reason for considering switching to the SL55? This is not criticism, just chat. Are you the gent who mentioned selling his TT a while back? I have always liked the SL, it's one helluva plush roadster, but there is quite a difference with a Porsche at that dollar level.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    The wheelbase (108.7") on the current a A6 is relatively short for its overall length (192") based on its front drive derived drivetrain. It has a large front overhang because the engine sits pretty far foward. The old STS had a 112.2" wheelbase with a 201" length. The new one has a 116.4" WB with a 196.3" length. You can see the difference. The old one was indeed larger than the competition but don't forget that Cadillac can't forget it's current buyers.
    I don't particularly have a beef with current Audi interiors. I'm sure they are very high quality, I just don't find the design as inviting as say certain Lexus models or the old STS. Maybe because they seemed darker and more business like.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Forgot to tell you - I took the 2004 LS in the Flint Mica color. After sitting in a black custom lux car at the dealership I fell in love with the black nappa leather with antique walnut wood trim. So I opted for the custom lux in flint mica with the black nappa leather. The antique walnut wood is gorgeous and the sample picture in the LS book can't hold a candle to how great it looks in the car. As edspider says the interior is where you live and the nappa leather and that wood make for a stunning home. The 2004 LS really does have an extraordinary ride. Best ever and the six speed makes you feel the acceleration difference to the 2001. I take it home in three weeks. Three year lease at more than $125 per month cheaper than my 2001 LS even though the sticker is $3800 more. Interest rates are half of what they were in 2001. Next gen LS arrives in 2007 and I will be ready for it. By the way the car is residualizing at 60% after three years even this late in the model year - much higher than I expected.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I can't help but ask this. You're stating that GM has caught up to the best in interior design, and you're basing this on a picture that allegedly shows similarities between the new A6 and a Chevy truck, so you mean to tell me that when Cadillac uses that very same interior design for their 60K Escalade family there is something special or top-notch about it? If the new A6 interior has flaws (and it does), and resembles a GM truck then what would you call that same interior design in a 60K Caddy truck? Also, the Chevy/Slade interior is about 10 years behind a VW or Audi in quality of materials, even if their design is similar (not that I agree with that they are).

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Okay, well we are going to say right now that the Escalade is not a part of our subject here, so we aren't going to get into that, those earlier pictures notwithstanding.

    Let's talk about our subject cars, and let's do so in a civil, respectful and non-confrontational manner.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Have you heard about when the MY 2007 LS will arrive at dealer showrooms? Is it early spring or late Fall 2006 ? I am agonizing if I should jump into the 2004 and trade-up to the '07 release, or stuff my mouth with my fist and continue to hold out for 2 more years ??? My dealer here is playing dumb, wants me to give the 2004 a shot, and have been sandbagging me on the 2007 model.
  • dpedersen1dpedersen1 Member Posts: 33
    I leave for a few days and came back and I thought I had accidentally hopped into the Caddy forum.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    It's definitely 2007 but no release date is set. The execs at my dealership think it will be spring 2006 based on their meetings and correspondence with Lexus. Remember also that they are one of the biggest dealerships in the US so they have clout with Lexus. I doubt that most dealerships will share data so easily. My dealer - Ray Catena - will tend to share with long time customers because he also sells MB, Jags etc, so their primary interest is 1 - keep you with Lexus, 2 - keep you with Ray so that if you go MB, Jag ... you'll go with him and not someone else. It's their belief that Lexus doesn't want the S-class to have much of a lead on them in bringing the new edition to market. It's also their belief that the new LS will generate a lot of excitement because of the new hybrid technology it will bring to the market. I've heard largely what lenscap posted through them so there is something strong behind it. But I was told mpg will be in the 35 range and the HP will be north of 400. I don't know if they are coming out with a V12 and I don't care. The hybrid will cause a profound change in this segment.

    The 2004 is fabulous. The ride is phenomenal and the road feel is tighter than before. The custom lux and ultra lux are even quieter than the other LS editions because of the glass. Hope it doesn't interfere with EZPass. My ex-boss has a problem with his A8 because the windshield glass prevents the readers from picking up EZpass. If you can swing it I'd lease it for 3 years. The 2007 LS will be much hotter than the 2001 was - IMO - so it will be a MSRP or above priced car for a prolonged period. By spring and summer of 2007 the prices will subside. A three year lease starting in April or May positions you well. Lease prices are great right now because LS residuals are higher than just about any car in this segment and interest rates are low. I'm actually paying $138 a month less than 2001 for a lot more car.
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    ljflx and I think exactly alike. I bought the 2001 the month it hit the showroom. Last Dec I decided to trade it in and get the 2004. Like ljflx, I choose flint mica with black/walnut and expect delivery in a couple of weeks. (100 day wait). I fully expect to trade it in when the next gen comes around whenever that might be.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    I created this topic so I don't wanna see it get shut down. Let's stay on task, it's really not that hard to do.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Did you take the custom lux? The antique walnut wood with the black interior is the most beautiful wood I've seen in a car. I said I wouldn't get another black interior car (had black on black 1998 LS400) but this interior is super rich and very classy. Need to go to a Maybach to beat this interior as far as I'm concerned.

    By the way - we are obviously car Luxuriasts. I loved that phrase you coined.

    OAC - just do it. Take a 36 month lease and enjoy 3 great car driving years and then you're primed for the 2007.
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    My 01 is an ultra. When the car was first introduced that's pretty much all they were getting in. Back then the ultras had different woods, too. Ecru and black. The ecru had a washed out gray wood. The black was called indigo bordeau that looked deep purple in full sun.

    Anyway for 2004, I got the black with antique walnut. I know I'll like it better than the black I have now. I'm hoping it will look richer and warmer. I stuck with the ultra because that's what I had before. I was afraid to find out what loosing the air suspension would do to the ride. (probably nothing). But also my friends have come to know me as the one whose car has all the buttons in the back. No one cries "shotgun" in an Ultra.
  • andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    If and when the Lexus LS500 is coming out? I keep hearing they also might bring a LS600 to the market either in 2006 or 07; is there any truth to that rumor?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    For your suggestions on moving up to the 2004.

    Here is my problem.

    When the 2004 LS came out, I went to take a long hard look at the first one to arrive at my dealer showroom floor. I was impressed visually, but felt the changes were too subtle, especially compared to the LF-S concept. So I decided to take a pass and wait for the complete re-design in MY 2007. Reading, seeing and hearing all the great things about the 2004 (esp the 6-speed) made me go back to take another look. Yes, I still like it, but just not that much to pull the trigger right now. Maybe my hesitation has to do with the fact that I like my 2nd gen exterior design more than the 3rd gen '01 - '04. And hence would much prefer the redesign especially if it has close resemblance to the LF-S concept. That would really give me a lot of joy to own such a car.

    So I am prepared to wait a couple of years. My current '99 has given me nothing but pleasant ownership experience. No complaints whatsoever. Now with 80K miles, it continues to perform flawlessly, making the choice of buying a new one right now that much more difficult. But I am happy to note that my dealer was not sand-bagging me with his lack of info on release date.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I was wondering what the Escalade had to do with the cars in this topic. I'm glad I wasn't the only one disturbed by Merc1's comments.

    The interior of the A6 looks horrible, the interior of the 5 series is better, but still stark and business like. As far as I'm concerned Lexus has been doing the best interiors for years and cadillac seems to be headed more int he lexus direction, while the Germans are doing God knows what. The STS interior is a definite improvement over the CTS and we all know the interior was the biggest source of criticism for the CTS. Assuming the CTS' interior upgrade in '05 makes it looks like the STS the CTS could definitely become one of the class leaders.
  • stevesteinstevestein Member Posts: 263
    If you don't mind posting it, what kind of deal did you get?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Car stickers at a tad over $65k. It has smart access - which is really nice. I get it for $62k. I didn't haggle the price to the bone so its possible you can do better. But every LS due in through the third week of April at Ray Catena is already sold and there are only 5 or 6 on the lot - which they tell me are sold also. Chase is $941 per month and Lexus Finance is $988. Leases are $0 down (I never put money down), $0 security and residuals are 60-61% for Chase and 58% for LFS. Chase gets a $300 turn-in fee but also gives you a $1500 damage waiver. I'm doing 15k miles. Take about $25-30 off if you do 12k miles. My last lease was 12k miles. Per edmunds most LS cars in our area are discounted about $2k so I'm satisfied. I'm funny - in business I fight much harder on price issues than I do in my personal life but I learned a long time ago that any business deal that's not a win-win - or doesn't connote a win-win feeling - is a failure.

    By the way a neighbor who took a euro-sport LS in October paid full sticker as did two other town friends I know who bought in December. Lastly if you go to Ray's motor car web-site (not his Lexus site but his overall site) don't pay attention to the new car availability list. It's way out of date - at least for Lexus and probably every other brand he sells.
  • hage57hage57 Member Posts: 24
    I am buying or leasing an 04 ls430 ultra,flint mica, with ecru. I was able to negotiate a purchase price of $4,900 off of the list. I am checking on a lease(having not leased before)and the money cost is all right, at 2.28%, but the residual on this car is quoted at 50%, by the way, this a 36 month, 15,000 miles per year, from Lexus Financial. Based on your last post, this residual seems very low. I would guess that residuals from base car to a ultra car will vary, but do they then vary from dealer to dealer, or does Lexus Financial set the rate to all the Lexus dealers. Your comments/advice would be appreciated.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hope you folks are aware of our dedicated Lexus LS discussion - there's a lot of information there that some of you would find very interesting, and it's a more appropriate place for some of this recent conversation.
  • hage57hage57 Member Posts: 24
    Sorry Pat, you are absolutely right, I didn't notice which board I was on!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
  • stevesteinstevestein Member Posts: 263
    I wasn't paying attention either.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Congrats on the new LS! I'll post my comments on the LS board.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    The concept Lexus coupe that will be at the NY Auto Show that I thought might be the next IS and you thought might be the next SC...we may both be wrong.

    Business Week Online has an article all about Lexus. In it they mention "Project Mount Everest," a supercoupe that Lexus claims will hold its own against the $141,800 Aston Martin DB7 Vantage and $113,250 Mercedes SL55 AMG. The car is said to have a V10 engine and Lexus says it may be introduced as soon as the Tokyo Motor Show this fall. If that's true then it would make sense to have a concept version out at this time. Oh, by the way, the expected price is $150,000.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That car was posted in a sketch a while back - maybe 6 months ago. I think it was coded as the v10 back then and a $150k price was noted. This is probably the updated news and it must be the car syswei posted a few weeks ago. Lexus is definitely heating things up in the next few years.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    If any of you are interested in learning more of how Toyota came to be, how they approach problems and opportunities and the real story behind the company and development of the Lexus brand, see if you can find this book at your local library like I did:

    Against All Odds - The Story of the Toyota Motor Corporation and the Family that Created It. by Togo and Wartman (1993)

    The trials and tribulations section of how the company started and barely survived WWII that makes up most of the book is bracketed by an introduction to the terror they went through deciding to risk doing Lexus and the final chapter where they reaped their rewards.

    The last chapter talks about their market research that helped them define the Lexus cars. It also energized their committment to create an incredible customer service organization that they also made very low-key.

    It might help clear away alot of the cobwebs and speculation that develops here about Toyota's intentions and Lexus' genesis.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You asked about the next S-Class a few months back. There is some information leaking out. If you didn't know Mercedes will be discontinuing all of their SOHC, 3 valve-per-cylinder engines over the next 2 years. The new engines (V6s and V8s) will all be 24-32 valves and DOHC in design, with direct injection among other tricks.

    This fall the new SLK 350 will be the first model to debut with the next generation engine, a 268hp V6. This engine of course will make its way over to the E320 giving us the E350, next C-Class, ML and it will be present in the SL350 (Europe only) and the CLS350 (next Feb). It will also power the upcoming GST (rumored R-Class).

    CAR and Autoweek are both reporting that as per usual practice there will be two new V8s. One is a 4.6L with 355hp and the other is a 5.5L with 405hp. These will no doubt power the next generation S-Class (S450 I'm guessing because S460 doesn't sound quite right) and S550. Of course the SL500 will become the SL550 and the next base CL will be the CL550. You can knock off about 4 hp on each for U.S. figures. With the right pricing there could be 6-cylinder S-Class in the U.S. again.

    The next generation AMG V8 cars will get a high-revving 6.3L V8 with over 500hp. Autoweek is reporting that Mercedes has already registered the name CLS63 among others. The two V12s stay the same for now.

    The bad news is that it is also being reported that Mercedes is going forward with an idrive like system for the next S and CL, only. The British press says that they don't intend to implement this system on the lower level cars.

    Also, the new CLS that just debuted at Geneva in production form that would normally come here this fall won't be released here until Feb 2005, to ensure launch quality is right for the U.S. market. The new SLK's interior looks to be of much higher quality than the previous car, even Edmunds said so, a big deal as they're one of the biggest complainers about some Mercedes' recent model's decline in interior quality. Hopefully this new emphasis on interior quality and reliability will be carried over to the next S-Class because the engine lineup looks like it will be class leading. It seems that someone in Germany is finally seeing that there is a problem and actually doing something about it.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm curious as to whether people find scratches on their lux cars in places that make it obvious the scratches were not accidental and had to be done intentionally. Several of us were out to dinner the other night and its seems we all have found these things. One guy with an S-classs had a scratch that zig-aagged on his roof for its entire length. I don't need to say what he would do if he found the culprit particularly because he bought the car rather than leased it. I've found a few on my trunk but they were not all that bad and could be buffed out. But on my 1998 LS I had a few on my roof also.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    I had a nice ding on the right front door ($100 to fix by paintless repair) and two scratches, one on the roof and one on the trunk ($80 to buff out) that were all not accidental apparently. The car is a black 2003 LS430UL. Honestly, some people.....

    This is my only gift to myself in 40 years, and I bought the car, so it pains me to see things like this. I think that is the intention by people who do things like this.
  • edspider1edspider1 Member Posts: 195
    I once took my new LS to a high school kid car wash. The kids put a nice deep scratch on the trunk. I don't know what motivates kids to deface our cars. I guess jealous.

    Sometimes I'm afraid to park too far away from other cars as it invites attention. And then there are those buffoons who double park. That's asking for a scratch.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Soon after I purchased my accord I found a small dent at the edge of the hood above the grille and some paint was scrapped off the bumper at work. I believe someone threw a rock and it caused the dent and then it scraped up the bumper on the way down.

    Recently, someone dented my father-in laws 2000 LS400, probably with the use of a elbow bashed in the driver side rear quarter panel. The dent ran almost the full height of the rear fender from top to bottom. Good thing paintless dent removal got most of it out.

    You know that's what sucks about owning a luxury car. People get jealous of what you have and go around vandalizing it.
  • gteach26gteach26 Member Posts: 576
    buying a brand new '03 Lincoln Navigator I come out to find a scratch covering 70% of the drivers side of the SUV.. around $600 to fix it! In my area they call it "tagging" and seems to be quite the past-time for local bored ingrates. I guess it is just the price of admission when you get a new car.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    A while ago I stated on these boards my gut feeling was Toyota was coming out with new Supra. Many people, including Toyota/Lexus fans, disagreed with me. But looks like I might be right after all:

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=07456387

    But I disagree with the article. Toyota will want Supra to compete with 350Z, so 100K+ is out of the question. Now there might be a very pricey Lexus variant off the platform to compete with Infiniti GTR, but that's a different story.
  • pen101pen101 Member Posts: 238
    Since the new STS is not for sale yet, why not expand the comparison to the new Lexus GS, the upcoming new Infiniti M45 and the upcoming Acura RL?

    We are living in the best of times (car wise), more cars than ever to choose from in this category and they all just keep getting better!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    When I had an XJR during the downturn it got some nasty scratches, which is one of the reasons I decided to get a more down to earth everyday car and sell the XJR. Some brands seem to invite more hostility then others - my wife's Merc ML got a really nasty deep scratch all down the side...

    I am in Japan on a business trip right now for 10 days, and watching the car landscape here is interesting. The Toyota's seem to own the high end market for the most part, in several days I have only spotted 2 Mercs and 3 Beemers here, while I have seen the Toyota LS4xx equivalent relatively often. And if you see Japanese roads, you see why the cars handle differently than Autobahn stormers - lots of very slow speed extremely low radius turns, lots of wheel turning that needs a lot of assistance in a heavier car. What's odd is how "right" cars feel in their native environment: I got carted around in an older LS400, and it was great, a 3 hour drive passed by quickly. On the other hand, a one hour drive in a 3 series made me very glad when it was over. Similalry, when I lived in Germany a 3 series was the tool of choice for high speed highway business drives for several hours, it just felt marvelously planted.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Because it's a mercedes or because it's a good engine? Unfortunately/fotunately trade journals/panels often reserve a spot for past winners (like the last gold medalist automaticly get a spot in the finals)

    Wards engine awards are trumpeted by ever automaker that gets 'em and you're some guy on the net.

    Whose opinion has more credibility?

    That must be why the the 3.2 liter MB consumes more fule than the 3.3 liter Toyota and not meeting ULEV standards whereas the Toyota does.

    Um, OK, I wonder if gearing, aerodynamics or weight might have an effect on fuel efficiency IN ADDITION to the engine?

    Was Toyota's 3.0L v6 ULEV compliant when it was introduced? I don't know. I thought the 3.3L v6 from Toyota was updated last year. You'd expect some improvement in an updated engine.

    That must be why MB is finally replacing the 3-valv/2-spark engines with 4-valve engines in the upcoming lineup.

    I think the more likely reason is that unwarranted criticism from buyers who insist on DOHC and 4 valves in the luxury market.

    You do realize DOHC engines come with tradeoffs, don't you? The extra cams take up more space and limit displacement, which is what's needed to provide low end torque and up max. torque.

    Mercedes is able to offer a 5.0L SOHC v8 which has more torque and power than their competitors', all of whom are offering 4.3 to 4.6L DOHC v8s.

    I'm not criticizing DOHCs with continuous VVT on intake and exhaust. I'm just saying there are other ways to get things done. And technology ain't gonna move forward if companies aren't allowed to explore alternative solutions b/c of market demand for DOHC.

    Being 90 degree unit is a cost-saving meassure because the block is a chop-off of a V8. In other words, it's hardly a point worth bragging.

    It's both cost-saving and a bragging point. I have never driven a 90 degree v6 as smooth as MB's. I would never be able to tell that it's not a 60 degree v6. That's impressive, b/c it's usually not too difficult to tell when you're driving a 90 degree v6.

    Honda uses the SOHC on family sedans for the low-cost markets like the Accord V6 for North America (the Euro Accord is sold here as Acura TSX, costing more than the North America V6 Accord even having only a DOHC I4). Honda puts a DOHC V6 in the NSX. That goes to show you where SOHC engines belong nowadays (cost savings); it's a damn shame that MB still puts those (and have one less valve than even the Accord V6) in a car that costs twice as much as an Accord V6 (E series, where the most frequent useage of 3.2 V6 is found)

    I guess I'm less concerned with cost savings and more concerned with performance than you are.

    If the SOHC v6 performs just as well as a DOHC v6, why do you care that the manufacturer is saving $? Is it your goal to extract every ounce of value out of the manufacturer?

    Besides, the SOHC v6s are in Honda's luxury line. Acura TL and MDX are going to have SOHC v6s. No one yet knows what engine the RL will have other than that it's a 3.5L v6, but it will probably be a SOHC v6 as well.

    Did they win on name brand, or low-cost? The MB 90degree 3-valve twin-spark V6 certainly is not a smooth running engine, compared to either the Toyota VVTi V6's or even the Honda SOHC V6's, and make significantly less power than either Japanese competition. No wonder MB is finally moving to 4-valve designs in the near future.

    Hmmm . . . if all this is true, how come MB's 90 degree v6 is on Ward's 10 Best and Toyota's 3.3L v6 isn't? I'm not knocking Toyota here, their old 3.0L v6 was also one of Ward's 10 Best but I've never found the MB to be a thrashy engine.

    As for NVH, every Lexus typically has better NVH than the comparable MB. It's something that Toyota focuses on, I don't know that it's due to the engines.

    As for its power, the MB v6 was powerful when it was introduced. I'm sure MB could update the technology to produce more power, but they've chosen to go with the standard DOHC game. It's clear that's what the luxury markets demand, and MB has to comply.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    The LS was designed for the U.S. market.

    It's native environment is the U.S.

    The fact that it works in the tight turns of Japan shows how well the design worked when taken back to Japan.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There are large volume sales of Lexus equivalent cars in all of Asia. They just don't count as Lexus because they are sold under the Toyota name plate. That's why the volume of actual Lexus + Toyotas version of Lexus cars are a lot closer in overall worldwide sales volume to MB and BMW than people think.

    Footie - The original LS400 design - as I remember - was bred to be a US car but I am sure Toyota had the Japanese and Asian markets in their radar scopes. They didn't count on Europe since they weren't going to build the cars there and knew that would take a long time to penetrate. Anyone who goes to Europe often enough knows that you need to build your products in Europe to win over the market unless you are a monopoly. That's why its funny to read all the dissing comments on the board about Lexus from European car lovers. If Lexus was invented from an enthusiast standpoint it would have been out of business in 2 years or less. Business usually rules over emotion. There are exceptions though - witness VW these days.
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    Yes AutoBild magazine in Germany has what they said was the first true picture of the interior of the new S Class. I did a double take because it looked like modified 7 Series with a curved dash. Looks like what you said was confirmed. They had no exterior pictures (I think they used a camera phone to snap the inside) but said there are huge wheel wells that put the Audi A6 4.2 to shame. It was said that the car's body shape is absolutly stunning though.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    A Forbes article on Lexus states the LF-C concept that will be at the NY show is a prototype for the next-generation IS coupe they hope will provide a youthful, sporty image. Here's what they say about it:

    1. The V8 is meant to signify the new IS will be even more sporting than the current IS and is an acknowledgement of America's love of cubic inches.
    2. As a coupe it helps reposition the IS as a sportier car (although there will be a sedan).

    The article also says the current IS buyer's average age is 30, the youngest for any Toyota/Lexus. Also, Toyota is dramatically rethinking the next IS because of its poor sales.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    A few questions for you:

    All reports to date speculate that there was going to be 3 variants of the next gen IS - coupe, sedan and conv. Does the Forbes article confirm this ? Does the article say anything about a hybrid engine (V6 or V8) for the IS ? How many trims/engines will the next IS have ? And will it have the I6 or a new V6 (like in the 2006 GS300 ?

    Pablo: I do travel to Japan a lot and can confirm some of your cursory observations. Last December on a business trip to Tokyo, I was toted around in my company VP's black/black 2002 S500. That drive was the most pleasant and soothing I had ever had in 5+ years of trips to Japan. It was superb. Loved it. Graceful, smooth, comfortable and rode like walking on air (must have the air suspension). I had only rode in a Celsior while in Japan, an older model (2nd gen), which also drove quite well, but I must admit, the MB rode better. Granted it was an older Celsior (LS in the US/Europe and Australia). I'll be going back to Korea and Japan in June and hope to do more car-toting around (altho' right hand steering is downright dangerous if you are not used to it)
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Maybe you are right. But the design work for the LS started in 1983, over 20 years ago and it took six years to get to market.

    Maybe in their long term thinking the LS might have a place in Japan or in Europe.

    But I think they were very, very focused on the U.S. because that was the market they wanted to crack, and crack it they they did.

    Did you see the Lexus sales figures for 1Q04. Best ever March and Q1. 65,394 vehicles!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    In case anyone wanted to see the data footie referenced: http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- - =20040401

    It's interesting that the LS was up 98% for the month and 73% for the quarter, despite the 2004 facelift being, imho, relatively minor. Wonder how they'll do when the all-new car is introduced in CY06.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The RX has a shot at 100k vehicles. The GX was only supposed to be a 20k per year SUV and the LS430 looks solid at 25-30k+ cars. It's easy to see the 2 holes in the line-up - the GS and IS. Also they've got to do something about the fact that the LX competes with its sibling Landcruiser. But if you combine the LX and TLC you have pretty good volume in that space too. Never met anyone yet who doesn't speak glowingly of the RX330. Did Lexus ever hit the sweet spot with that car/suv. Most people I know think of it as a tall station wagon and don't even consider anything else when their lease is up.
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