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Comments
They have to look for ways to deliver Value without sacrificing Prestige. How is Cadillac doing this? By Amerisizing! Give a bigger car for less money. Traditional American cars are big so Cadillac can get away with bigger cars for a class lower. The Market also lets you decide whom you are up against, so naturally Cadillac has an upper hand. The CTS is a 3 Series, C Class fighter. But it’s much bigger.
http://customer.talkpoint.com/MORG007/040704a_cf/default.asp?enti- - ty=toyota
I assumed the SRX would be "representative" of the MSRP's for the new STS (minus a bit, as "station wagons" generally are priced higher than the sedan versions of cars). I have assumed, too, that the STS is the sedan version of the SRX (hopefully this conclusion is accurate, in "spirit" at least).
Therefore a V8 equipped, and nicely optioned AWD SRX for $55+K should translate into, perhaps, a $53+K STS ([non-permissible content removed] for tat, features and options, that is).
Where are the prices (base) for the new STS posted (with authority)?
Thanks!
WRT Toyota/Lexus, these are concepts. Remember ? Not production vehicles yet. Like gscoupe said, things will change moving forward. This design does not scare me one bit. As an LS owner, I am looking forward to the 2007 model year, and then we'll see, won't we ? If the new LS is anything close to the LF-S concept, I am SOLD ! That simple !!! Not what many BMW fans can say about their recent models of the 5- and 7-, eh ????
What people have said is that they find the LS to be boring (to them) compared to the other cars in the class. Big difference. Trust me, by reading all the comments about leather, paint colors, nav systems and stereos everyone here knows that you and other LS owners love their cars, it just doesn't sound exciting to others because they look for or place emphasis on different things in a car. One person's excitement is another person's yawn.
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DrFill was like you and thought the cars were not alike. He briefly saw the link before it was removed and immediately posted "I stand corrected" and indicated the cars are more similar than he realized.
Of course, you'll always think the cars don't look alike. But I would have liked you to see the two side-by-side anyway.
Merc1... Well said. In addition, I would point out that concept cars usually look better than the production models and give us insight into the talent of the designers and strategy of the marketers. That LF-C looks like a rough-hewn first draft that was never meant to be seen outside the think tank.
Anyway I’m not going to dwell on concept cars but prefer to criticize the production models. My worst nightmare is coming to fruition Bangle is being copied. The back end of the 06 GS is painfully similar to the 5-series. Even the 05 RL, which I am mostly pleased with, shows Bangle motifs on the trunk although subdued.
LS crew I’m glad you guys are happy with your cars and I am first in line with the respect I have for Japanese reliability. I surely hope the LS evolves into the elegant, continuously reliable car I’m imagining and I believe they have a handle on the preferences of buyers in the upper end. But sorry, their designers are shooting in the dark as they are with the entire ugly Toyota lineup. If you believe the LS is immune from quality issues and the flaky, fashion whims of auto marketing you are kidding yourselves. But then again, I envy the blind faith that some of you have. If you can buy what they dole out without question, you are in some ways fortunate. I have no emotional equity in any brand. BMW and Porsche have appealed to me for a long time but BMW is now on my spit list. If Porsche reneges on it’s evolutionary minimal design philosophy I’ll drop them too, but I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon unless it’s by default due to their financial concerns. The upcoming 997 911 in spy shots still presses my buttons. The fact that the Boxster is growing roots is a great sign. And watch out for that elusive Porsche sedan!
Merc1 Buick Velite I can see the SC430 impression, but mostly, I see three influences Infiniti, Mazda and Honda, specifically G35 and S2000. I find the elliptical trunk tier offensively discordant. The overall shape/lines are fluid and pleasing but the plagiarism sticks in my craw more “me too” risk management at work here.
The Styling discussion here is quite telling. As I've said in earlier posts none of the carmarkers are really hitting me with their designs these days. Lexus' problem has been for a much longer duration than the others IMHO. As they refreshed their cars, (The LS in particular) the design became blander. Take the LS400..The 95 design was an awful attempt to preserve the old look. The 98 refresh looked better, but was a pretty bland looking design. The LS430 debut was disappointing in the sense that it very closely resembled the old S class.
After saying this, some might ask why I bother buying these LS cars..The bottom line was ownership experience. The LS at least still offers reliablity and durability second to none. I do feel on absolute terms their quality level has fallen from the original LS, but comparatively, it's still the benchmark. I only hope the '07 LS is better in aesthetics than the older cars. I'd seriously consider buying another nameplate if the '07 is yet another S Class clone.
SV
Designman - 9 perfect years and 250,000+ perfect miles makes you stay loyal to a brand. It's that simple for me plus I love the design of the 2004 LS - in and out - and the ride, build quality and engineering even more. Its the same reason MB owners stayed so loyal to their cars for so many years. They delivered perfection or near perfection as well in the past. That's why I already have so much confidence in the 2007. I have no doubt it will be a beautiful car with meaningful general improvements over the 2004 model and a groundbreaking fuel technology that will be highly desired to boot. Hey - a bunch of owners are looking forward to a car that is three years out. That speaks volumes about the quality and equity of the brand.
They don't seem to understand or we don't understand (it is 300hp) either way to sell in the luxury class they will need a V-8 or straight 8 or v-10 or v-12.
In New England, most Caddy dealers are dualled with another GM line (during the lean years for Caddy, how else could they heat the building?). They are poorly positioned to go after the upscale customer. Poor facilities, poor people, poor locations in blue collar areas (e.g., Auburn, MA vs. Westboro, MA). etc. Does a software engineer, JD, MD, etc. really want to drop 60K on a performance sedan and then have to wait behind a Pontiac Sunbird customer for service? Does he want to deal with a Pontiac salesperson ("so, what'll it take to put you in this car today?")?.
designman,
Yeah I saw that too on the new RL. The trunklid where it meets the back glass is slightly Bangle looking. Overall the new RL looks like a fancy Accord, even more so than the new TL, another bass-ackwards move from Honda. Some of the posters on the RL (future vehicles) board are seeing the same resemblance to the Bangle trunklid. The new RL looks awfully small too, so I'll have to see it in person. BTW, there is a new 530i in my parent's neighborhood, in Black. I have to say I like the new look on the 5, but never the 7.
That Buick is pretty good looking in my book, it would do wonders for their image. Now let us see if GM will allow Buick to build it and build it correctly.
M
However to understand Honda as a whole is to realize why they won't build a V8. When you look the sales numbers of the E500 vs E320, GS430 vs GS300, 545i vs 530i, S-Type 4.2 vs 3.0, Q45, M45 and others you'll see that the 6-cylinder versions outsell the V8 versions anywhere from a little bit (E-Class) to a huge amount (GS300 vs GS430 is like 4 or 5 to 1) or they don't sell at all (Infinitis). V8s are mainly for image and a select few as the majority buy the 6-cylinder versions of these sedans.
Honda being the little, shrewd, conservative company that they are can't see spending the $$ required to enter this segment with a class-leading car, which of course is what they would be shooting for. They aren't going to half do it, so it's all-out or no entry.
Think about it, to build class leading car like the TL in the upper segment would take a major investment from Honda: a 5-Series beating rwd platform and a brand new from the ground up V8. Honda's culture won't allow it to scrimp on either item...in other words big bucks would need to be spent. Those two things on top of making everything this class of car requires as standard equipment (the Acura way) would prove to be costly for Honda. They also need another car to spread the costs of that V8 and RWD over. What else would they use this new RWD chassis under? The new V8 could be shared with the next NSX, but the chassis probably couldn't (mid-engine placement). It will be another 10 years or so before Honda summons the courage (i.e. business case) to do a RWD V8 sedan. Remember how long it took them to put a V6 in the Accord?
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If you look at any comparison of engines in car lines the smaller engine sells more units. The Camry 4 easily outsells its V6 brother. Its price, not engine size that does it. My LS430 does almost as well in gas mileage as my mothers V6 Camry so its not gas mileage that is much of an issue either, at least as relates to 6 and 8 cyl engines.
Every car in their lineup is now sporty. Expect them to pilfer buyers from all corners including converts from pure luxury to sport-luxury with the RL. I could care less about a V8. Going from 220 to 300 hp is significant. And if it comes with a weight loss and tight sport suspension it will do the trick in my book.
TL seems to be a smash hit. Will RL hit back-to-back? I'll venture to say yes.
Merc1, you're right the RL does look small but I read it is roomier than the 5. IMO these are good signs. I'd like to see them slim down the spokes though.
Can't wait to get to the NY show.
I am guessing NO even though it is several hundred pounds lighter.
There is one in Longbeach who oparates out of containers next to the Freeway.
He has had an XLR that hasn't sold from the time they were hot.
Sure, the GS300 trails in hp big-time, then the RL should be compared to the GS430, not the LS430.
It certainly should be compared to the new M35 rather than the M45.
Anyways, the SH-AWD is interesting, but we'll see how it translates on the pavement. The M will have an active rear suspension, we'll have to see about that one too.
The GS is okay, looks kinda bloated.
The RL is inoffensive. "Boring" is the first thing that comes to my mind when I look at it.
Maybe seeing the cars in person will be different.
It's very hard to compare photos like this when you have to keep switching back and forth between links, and the photos are different sizes, but hopefully you'll see how similar the two cars are from the side. To best see the similarities you may have to print each out and hold them next to each other.
GS (scroll down):
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?intAsvPageCurrent=8&s- - - - - - - ection_id=31&article_id=7671
LF-S:
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/03tms_lexlfs/index1.html
jrock - sorry - I was referring to the current M45.
If you see pics on another message board that you'd like to link to here, just find and link to the source rather than the message.
Feel free to email me with questions, thoughts or comments.
That said, my mother will be trading in her 1999 GS 300 on the new one. The dealer told us it goes on sale March 1, 2005, and she'll be looking to get one around September 2005.
How's the new LS 430?
This is surprising because I've always preferred Lexus interiors. However, no doubt the quality of materials in the GS will be top notch.
Do you think GM would be as badly screwed up if the senior management, Jack Smith on down, had to actually buy, drive and maintain their own cars from local dealers? Rather, the senior management has gotten as far away from the product as they can. This is not true among the senior people in Munich or Stuggart.
Nope, not my take on it at all. I so see a double standard however. You argued boo20 up and down about waiting lists and such, yet you yourself experienced the same thing at your dealership when buying a new LS430, yet an AMG Benz or some other hot Benz like a CLK Cabriolet couldn't possibly have a waiting list or anyone waiting for them. You seem to imply that because you and a few other Lexus fans are waiting for a 2007 LS model (that you know nothing about yet) will be hot because of it's drivetrain, yet when I suggested that a diesel Benz (you know a car that actually goes on sale this month) might be equally sought after, that notion was met with "diesel won't make it" and such. Too much glossing over everything, only Lexus this and that in here nowadays.
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Now - diesel cars have never been easy to sell here. I don't know anyone that has any desire to even look at one. This has nothing to do with MB and everything to do with how the American public buys cars. It buys gas engines because that is what it has been trained to do and that is how the business model is set up. Hybrids don't change that model, diesels do. Business models don't change very easily. Nor will they change when there is a logical alternative that maintains the current model. This is not about Benz at all. Why else would MB only commit 3000 CDI's for the US market. Because they are uncertain about diesel demand and market reserach doesn't give them any confidence that they can sell more.
Boo20 claimed that there were year+ wait list for cars across the whole US - in some cases ordinary E-500's, not even AMG's. So I look at my sunday paper and I see a bunch of them advertised for sale - prices and all - both ordinary cars and AMG's. Plus that was just a partial list. Thus I couldn't buy his story. Persoonally I couldn't care less as I was not in the market for any of the cars he was touting anyway.
You would be in a better position to run a company if you know what your customers go through.
If you saw Cadillac Dealerships in San Diego, they look like a 1969 Time capsule. Complete with 70’s furniture, and a MacDonald’s next door