High End Luxury Cars

designman · April 2004

Not only that, the pix of the A8, 6, and 300C ruined my breakfast yesterday. I ate half of the Mylanta bottle after that abominable display. Throw in the Aston too... ain't the same.

There's something funky about the 300C though. It looks like it weighs 9,000 pounds and is the car I want to be driving if I'm gonna play chicken with someone. And for some strange reason I can picture it being shot to Swiss cheese in a Sopranos episode.

merc1 · April 2004

Ok gotcha. Then you might have really liked Mercedes' old-school designs, they were as "stately" as possible. Upright, grilled and formal as can be.

Interesting I'm reading that Hyundai could top Toyota in the JDP study due to be realesed tomorrow. Amazing no one on the survey/news articles watching board mentioned this, but we have DCX articles for days. We'll see how much preaching is done tomorrow evening if something like that happens. Could be hype, maybe not???

I know one thing the Germans will probably sink even further. Has to be that way.

M

oac · April 2004

Keep dreaming about a 600hp Lexus, isn't going to happen

I remain, yours truly, a dreamer indeed !

BTW, the LF-S is forever to be a concept car. The GS surely took what it could from it and turned out to be a dud imo

It is worth noting that this car hasn't even gone into production and you have already stated it "turned out" to be a dud. Hmmm... I'd like to know where you got your crystal ball. But, you left yourself an out with an imo at the end of that sentence. Almost too clever...

merc1 · April 2004

Pretty good. I meant the styling IMO is a dud. I said nothing about the car's other aspects. Didn't know you weren't clever enough to figure that I was talking about styling, even when I clearly mentioned what the GS took from the LF-S.

M

maxhonda99 · April 2004

The Hyundai story will be most interesting today. I'm waiting to see the reason why Hyundai would top Toyota.

maxhonda99 · April 2004

merc1,

I thought JD Power surveys were useless, IYO?

syswei · April 2004

Was it Hyundai that started offering the 10-year powertrain warranties?

michael_mattox · April 2004

If hundai takes over the #1 spot good for them.. unfortunately the real impact is that it just shoves Mercedes down another notch...It is very important that they do what ever is necessary to stop their slide....they have some of the best engineers in the world it is shocking that they have let their problems continue for this length of time.

syswei · April 2004

The study to be released today is of "initial quality"...meaning model year 2004 cars, with the buyers surveyed after 90 days of purchase. So, if MB has been promising to improve quality, we'll be able to make an early judgement of the results.

ljflx · April 2004

Absolutely loved the SL in the 70's and 80's. My wife and I wanted a his and hers in our dreams when we got married in 1984. That was before the house and kids of course. The CL will definiitely be a car I will look closely at. The 6 series won't make the list though. Yes - I did love the old MB designs and as you know I love the current S design. But I don't think it will be a classic MB in the long run.

designman - they are into wrecking cars this year and stealing them as well. I hope they don't wreck Johnny Sack's Maserati. But somehow I think him and that car may have an unhappy ending. Wonder what he did with the S500? By the way was the car that dropped the bundle of money in the episode before last a Lexus GS. Looked like one but it was a dark night scene. I'll have to look again at that last show but I think Frankie Valli was eating at the Four Seasons to propose the "hit".

lovemyclk · April 2004

The 300C kinda looks like the car Stephen King wish he had for "Christine"! Definitely an imposing sled...

designman · April 2004

Absolutely loved the SL in the 70's and 80's.

Precisely my sentiments. I still cant stop ogling them when I see one parked with the top down. Actually, I love all of em except the current one.

Havent been able to watch Tony and the boys these past couple of weeks. The last one I saw was when Paulie hit the gardner in the head with a shovel, he dropped the rope, and his partner came flying out of the tree... chain saw and all.

designman · April 2004

You hit the nail on the head with that one. I can see that grille imprinted on some characters chest in a Stephen King adventure.

I love nicknaming cars with dubious design. Think Ill dub the 300C The Waffle Iron.

maxhonda99 · April 2004

The JD Power survey is out. Hyundai passed Toyota by 1 in the IQS survey for 2004.

Lexus is still #1 though, but Cadillac is closing the gap.

scottphillip · April 2004

Here is a link to the press release:
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004037

I wonder which Lexus models slipped in initial reliability...

ljflx · April 2004

I would imagine the GX hurt Lexus scores a bit. It has a well documented vibration issue reported on the GX board though my GX is flawless and everything I expected it to be. The GX was also only average in reliability in CR.

syswei · April 2004

Here's last year's release for comparison:
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003028

MB has indeed made some strides, going from 15th place to 10th.

b4z · April 2004

Cadillac may be getting high ratings, but I still say it is from an older demographic that can't hear noises, and tends not to complain as much about problems.

syswei · April 2004

Older customers not hearing noises is possible, but not complaining as much about problems? I'm not as sure, and in fact imho it could be quite the opposite.

ljflx · April 2004

Reliability ratings in CR were abysmal. Maybe that initial satisfaction is very fleeting.

il_62231 · April 2004

unintended acceleration, er...cruise control.. I watched that show and it brought back memories...What was interesting was doing a search for unintended acceleration, and toyota, lexus, audi and a few others showed up. Involving current and past cars. Scary.

oac · April 2004

On DCX CEO's fate:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040429/autos_daimlerchrysler_1.html

merc1 · April 2004

Well I didn't exactly say they were useless. My position is that there are other things to evaluate a car on. I do take issue with some of the things JDP says because they really don't tell you much other than where a certain brand or car places. Not much detail.

Secondly since this is the board for survey worshipers with a Toyota bias I just had to point out that about Hyundai, which by all accounts were sub-par just a few years ago.

Mind you this is the initial quality survey and a lot of folks don't put to much emphasis on this one. The 3 year dependability study is the more important one. I agree with this.

michael_mattox,

You make it seem like it has been 20 years or something..lol. A turn around of any kind takes time. For whatever it is worth Mercedes did improve by twenty percent this year, per JDP. So actually they didn't get "shoved down" even further as you put it. I'm telling you now don't look for much or any improvement in the dependability study because for 2004 they'll be looking at 2001 cars. It will take a few more years for things to change on these types of surveys, reguarding Mercedes-Benz.
____________________________

There is another thing in a carconnection.com article that says exactly what I've tried to tell certain people for years. You have to look at where the models place in these surveys. Porsche was the darling last year and oh how I had to hear about MB's cross-town neighbor is able to do it right and Mercedes couldn't but this year Porsche dropped down because of one model.

Mercedes' main problem children have been that dang ML, C-Class and recently the initial run of 2003 E-Classes. I can't find the link where the S-Class was only second to the LS430 in initial quality in either 2002 or 2003?? Footie??

Some people will now look at Porsche and say that they've lost something, yet the 911 and Boxster are more reliable than ever, it is just the Cayenne dropping their "nameplate" overall. You also have to look at which model might be carrying the weight for a certain namplate. BMW is the perfect example of this. They sell more 3-Series cars than X5s and 7-Series combined, so unless JDP has some type of system in place to make sure an even amount of BMW owners gets surveys, the biggest group (3-Series) of owners are more likely to get a survey. The X5 and now the 7-Series have been just as much trouble as any Mercedes-Benz, yet wasn't (?) BMW ahead of Mercedes until this year on this very same initial quality survey. I tried to explain why this could be in various News and Views topics, but no all I got was BMW is better, while actual 745i and X5 owners were pulling their hair out. Of course BMW will lead if the 3-Series carries most of the weight on the surveys (because that is what they sell the most of). The 3-Series has been around since 1999 so of course it is going to be very reliable now.

My whole point is that you have to do more than count where a nameplate places before making so many assumptions as so many people love to do on these boards. Sometimes it really does make a difference to see where the actual models place, not just the nameplate.

ljflx,

I see. What did you think of the 1990-2002 SL? That was my favorite car on the planet for like 10 years! Well if you're going to consider a CL you have from now until about spring of 2006 to get one. This particular CL I boldly predict will become a classic (long time from now because of the sales numbers) because of it's design. It may just be the best looking Mercedes I've seen since (1986) I've been paying attention to Mercedes.

M

merc1 · April 2004

There are some geninue surprises in the model breakout.

The Mercedes-Benz M-Class placed in the top 3 for initial quality! What in the world? Someone either has goofed with the numbers (JDP) or Mercedes actually bothered to address the many complaints about this vehicle. I'll be watching the 2007 dependability survey to see if it holds up. Doubt it.

Cadillac's brand new XLR made it into the top three for it's segment. Interesting seeing as though they only sell about 300 a month, a very small sample of data I'm sure.

I see GM's older, low-tech cars/trucks made the cut: Buick Century, Chevy/Cadillac SUV twins. No surprise there. The CTS made the cut also, impressive.

ljflx - despite all the problems I read about on the SUV board concerning the GX470 it still placed in the top 3. Also interesting.

Ford's brand new F150 placed in the top three. A minor miracle for Ford. Their new product intros are usually followed by recall after recall, problem after problem.

So much to see and think about with these surveys.

M

syswei · April 2004

Unlike CR, JDP is a "push" type of survey. So if a car like the XLR sells in few units, JDP can sample a largish fraction of the owners. So the survey sample for the XLR probably isn't that small, even compared to, for example, the Camry. Anecdotally, I have repeatedly gotten JDP surveys in the mail for my LX, but not my RX.

The GX being in the top 3. The segment it competes in (premium luxury SUVs) doesn't have that many competitors (my guess would be 5-8), so the GX could still be below average within the Lexus nameplate, but finish second out of group of 5-8.

That ML result is impressive. Maybe we'll be replacing the LX with a R someday...but not in its first year for sure, I can't just assume first-year quality with an MB (unlike with Lexus).

merc1 · April 2004

Fair enough I guess.

Replace you LX with an "R"? You mean an RX or Mercedes' upcoming R-Class (don't yell at me if I'm slow here and I dare suggest that you'd consider a MB product).

M

syswei · April 2004

I meant the R-class. My wife likes variety, isn't so keen on 2 Lexi in the family. I ususally drive the RX, which I'm 90% sure I'll replace with a 2007 LS hybrid. The LX could be replaced by the R, it depends on whether the seating is sufficient for her (sometimes she wants to haul around alot of kids, and all the pics I've seen show 6 seats max) and whether the cargo space is sufficient (with the seats up). Plus it's not clear when it will ship in a hybrid version.

I actually do keep a somewhat open mind about these choices.

ljflx · April 2004

Loved that gen as well and like very much the current car. There has never been anything but great SL's in my book.

S-class - I would expect that initial quality scores of the S-class to be sky high. In all honesty who wouldn't be happy with this car during the inital period measured? I think the problems that hurt it are a little down the road - 6-12+ months out. The LS keeps going in the near perfection of the first 3-6 months thus the sky high satisfaction and reliability indexes of CR. MB has to work out the bugs in the S-class that develop a bit later on and as I said, from my reading and personal acquaintances they are mainly electrical. Personally - I don't put much stock in the initial quality index. I've never had a new car I didn't like. Initialy quality reminds me so much of winter storm wishes I had when I was in school and prayed for snow days. Most of those storms started out as snow, many of them turned to rain - and off to school I went. Initial quality of the storms were great though.

michael_mattox · April 2004

When you are right you are right, Mercedes did jump from 15? to 10...Lookin good.

ljflx · April 2004

It's posts like ejerod's on the S-class board that scare the daylights out of me on MB. He was in seventh heaven if you remember with the 2001 S - initially. When you come from 9+ years of Lexus perfection its hard to opt for anything that will be less. Isn't that why people became so loyal to MB over the years. They built bulletproof cars that people raved about and had enormous confidence in. I still remember so well the movie "The Four Seasons" with Alan Alda. The Benz in that movie should have been listed as an actor in the credits it played such a key role. The owner, who was played by an actor whose name escapes me (but he's played many character roles including a key role in "Wait unti Dark") was ready to die for the car toward the end of the movie. If you are a Benz lover - you have to see that movie plus the movie is really good anyway though the follow-up TV series failed. It was early 80's if I remember right. MB never really made flashy handling cars until recently. That's also why the AMG business was born outside of MB. Problem for me is I know a number of people like ejerod who fret over their experience - some have moved on, some are still hoping. Personally I don't know anyone whose had a flawless Benz right now and I don't know anyone who hasn't had a flawless Lexus. Hence my belief in the CR surveys.

syswei · April 2004

When you look at it, the MB nameplate is just 1 notch below Toyota, which isn't bad at all!

I do agree with ljflx and merc1 that long-term reliability matters more than initial quality, though.

syswei · April 2004

ljflx, imdb.com is a really great site for looking up movie trivia

ljflx · April 2004

Thanks - I forgot about that website. The actor was Jack Weston. Great movie.

MB - Perception is still high which could account for the ranking.

designman · April 2004

It will take a lot to knock Mercedes off the perception perch. If the previous-generation boxcar designs couldnt do it, followed by the current American-looking varieties with funny lights and cheap wheels, nothing will. Theyll have to collapse in puffs of smoke a la slapstick silent movie cars before people stop buying them. Even then, there will be vultures picking up the badges to use as paper weights and hang on their walls.

scottphillip · April 2004

Designman, I had to laugh when I read your post. When I was a kid, I loved Cadillacs. I collected sales brochures and advertisements. In college, I found a hood ornament from an Eldorado, and was so thrilled.

When I started buying new cars, I no longer really wanted a Cadillac. In the past 20 years, I have only owned one Caddy--an Allante. Hopefully, the upcoming STS will be a winner.

Perhaps Cadillac will be on top of that "perception" perch soon with Mercedes, and I can wear the hood ornament on a gold chain. :-D

ljflx · April 2004

I don't agree designman. It's not as difficult as you state and it can happen a lot quicker than you'd expect. But if the quality isn't there than the resale values fall. Indeed that is happening right now. If the resale values fall the high upfront prices that generate the profits don't hold. If that happens it comes tumbling down as they will have to lower prices to move the cars. Perception and status is a house of cards tied to the high prices right now because the car quality doesn't support it. If it did the resale prices would have stayed at historic MB levels - above everyone else. If the prices don't hold the public perception and status will fall quickly. It's like so many bad things that happen in business. The signs are there, they are hard to believe and then a lot of things turn against you at the same time. Then people wonder what happened. They have to restore quality and confidence and do it pretty soon. They are addressing it because they fully understand the danger lurking in the near future. I think they will succeed at least to the point of turning things around. The difficulty was getting themselves to believe there really was a problem. They were in denial.

designman · April 2004

Well I agree with you―how do you like dem apples? There probably isnt a single person or business in existence that doesnt take life and everything in it for granted to some extent. It could all be over in a finger snap. And we see major corps failing all the time. Yet some never seem to learn. Indeed, I exaggerated a bit in my last post to make a point.

But what I am saying is that MB is on the highest of pedestals when it comes to image. To this day, even though Cadillac has seen the dregs, the image still holds for many and it held even during the raunchy years. I think MB would have to go clearly out of business before people let go, and even then, theyd be wishing it back from the dead. From the upper reaches of corporatia to the lower-east-side pimps, its one of the ultimate status symbols, and to people who have built emotional equity in status, I have to believe reliability is a concept with which they have little familiarity. And with hefty price hits, there will be plenty of these people turning it into their opportunity.

ljflx · April 2004

To a certain extent that's why I'd almost rather see them scale back and just build cars the way they used to. They are not going to be able to match the Toyota prowess of mass car building. On the other hand they can build very high quality cars with a lot of options and customizing and still produce say 150k+ cars a year for the US market. Sometimes smaller is better. Then they'd maintain that classy image forever. I think I'm starting to see merc1's light on his favorite brand.

I have seen several people now in the $1mln+ per year comp range walk from MB over to Lexus. My old company's former CEO just did and I was shocked to find out the other day. He was one of those people that I thought would never move from MB. Swapped out of an S600 and into an LS430 ultra and loves it. We met for dinner, never talked about cars but had parked at the same NYC garage. Then we walked off together and both asked for the same car. It was a funny moment. I was glad to tell him I only had a custom lux. He had a host of problems with his S600.

jamesfletcher2 · April 2004

This MB post is scary!

ejerod "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" Apr 29, 2004 10:13am

ljflx · April 2004

That was the post I meant. Ejerod really loved his car - initially - and then the replacement initially again - and thought the world of Benz, so that makes it scarier still.

merc1 · April 2004

Yikes you'd consider a "Mercedes-Benz"..oh my. Didn't think that would be possible, I'm shocked.

ljflx,

Yeah I know that is true about initial quality, but those MY 2000 S-Class cars were troublesome from the start and Mercedes did address those issues (Airmatic and Comand mainly) so I really expect the 2003+ models to do pretty well in the 3 year dependability studies, but we'll see. Of course by 2006-2007 they'll be a new S-Class...ugh. I disagree with the perception theory. If a car is having problems in the first 90 days then it isn't living up to the perception and people that spend that kind of money would report it don't you think??

"Personally I don't know anyone who's had a flawless Benz right now and I don't know
anyone who hasn't had a flawless Lexus. "

I'm not saying that isn't true in your case, but I've always thought you glossed over things like that a little too much for me. When people are happy overall with a car they're a lot less likely to harp about a minor problem that may or may not have happened. Your circle loves their Lexi so I'm not surprised. However Lexus' do have problems, the IS300 and GX470 have proven that right here on these boards, and yes I know they are far less frequent than Mercedes-Benz's.

You're starting to see the light about (what should be) Mercedes' purpose in life! That makes two very shocking revelations on this board in one day. Wow. Seriously though they might be doing just that. For one the quality of materials and build have gone up (reportedly) significantly with the new SLK and the CLS. This is per the British press, which is much rougher on MB's mistakes than the U.S press is. They've decided to get rid of the 4-cylinder SLK over here. Thank god, because that engine wasn't fit for the SLK and it sounded like an old Freeze King unit. The CLS is coming in V8 guise only, the CLS500. No multi models to have to concentrate on. There will probably be an AMG version for 2007 though. Premium cars only should be the thinking Stuttgart, at list as far as the U.S market is concerned. We'll see what happens.

M

maxhonda99 · April 2004

merc1,

The IS300 has reliability/quality issues?

I haven't seen any sign of those.

syswei · April 2004

imho this is with a mountain of salt since it comes from autospies (who had predicted the 2004 LS would be a "complete redesign")...

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2884&cat- egoryId=1

syswei · April 2004

I'm just waiting for the day when you say you'll consider a Lexus.

michael_mattox · April 2004

You said the following....

"When people are happy overall with a car they're a lot less likely to harp about a minor problem that may or may not have happened."

I agree, which brings the question that we should be talking about....WHY are people so unhappy with their benz that they harp about every minor problem?....ALSO what is it about Lexus that makes people who own them so happy?

pat · April 2004

We are not going there again - this is NOT a Lexus vs. MB discussion, no matter how hard some of you try to make it be so.

Also, the sarcasm that shows up here from time to time is out of place. We are supposed to be discussing - and enjoying - the upper-end vehicles, not poking needles in each other's eyes.

Sheesh. Am I a broken record, or what?

syswei · April 2004

You need to recruit more fans of other marques to this board.

pat · April 2004

So does everyone else.

Has anyone heard from arcoates lately? He's been MIA for some time now.

ljflx · April 2004

I posted the other day that I'm sure there is some infighting in Toyota about moving to sport from the highly successful conservative theme. Likewise I'm sure theres is similar "I told you so's" in MB about the move to volume and healthy discussions about retracting from that move. It looks like the CFO made the bold move on Mitsubishi. That's what CFO's are supposed to do - protect the business and its assets.

merc1 · May 2004

It was during the introduction of the car, long cleared up by now. Nothing major.

syswei,

If I had millions and millions of dollars and had every European car I could ever want I'd at least consider a SC430. I still find it to be the most "interesting" Lexus. I was a fan of the previous SC400/300 believe it or not. It was a very good design for a Japanese car.

michael_mattox,

Easy, because of the money paid for and rep of MBenz. A lot of people expect perfection and if the car doesn't deliver that it gets blasted. Plus unlike Lexus, Mercedes has this 118 year reputation to live up too and when they don't...look out! A dual-edged sword. My point on here is that there seems to be too much exaggeration in these areas.

ljflx,

Man you don't know the half of it. There are some MB fans on other boards here and at germancars fans that totally disagree with me about MB moving back towards their old way of producing fewer, but higher quality cars. I usually find these folks to be lacking in understanding of what Mercedes-Benz truly is. The old-school MB owners/fans etc. are right with me on most things. I don't see why some would want more volume and cheaper MBs that is what they bought Chrysler for, I keep telling them.

Also, I wouldn't look for Lexus to become BMW-like past the next IS series. They would never make a 5-Series beater in the handling department, it would give up too much of the Lexus ride. This goes double for the LS430 vs the 745i. They'll never compromise this for a few enthusiasts that probably wouldn't buy a Lexus anyway. They'll come close with the new GS (in handling) I predict, but I doubt it will outright outhandle a BMW at a track.

I've had "conversation" upon conversation about the E-Class and the 5-Series. The BMW guys say the 5-Series sets the benchmark, and I say it is when it comes to handling. Other areas such as space, ride comfort etc the E is easily better and outsells the 5-Series in just about every country around the world. Now you can arguable add ease of use and practicality too, plus styling, but that is subjective. I ask them why would Mercedes mess with this to chase BMW's 5 in handling when they already have the bigger piece of the market? They've had since the previous 5's introduction in 1996 to build the 2003 E-Class to match that car's handling and they still didn't do it. They aren't trying to obviously. Sure there is AirmaticDC and great adjustability, but chasing BMW in the mid to upper segments when it comes to handling isn't Mercedes' mission and it probably won't be Lexus' either when it comes to the next LS.

Now lexus does want the GS to be seen in the same light as the 5-Series but so far the previous 2 generations have failed at this. Tough spot for them with the GS because the 5 and E are so dominant and they do so on different strengths.

There is a similar dilemma with Honda/Acura not producing a V8 RL. Hot topic on the News and Views side of the house.

Nobody can do it all, all luxury car makers have to make compromises somewhere.

M

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