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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    "Never have so few posted so much that amounted to so little."
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "Never have so few posted so much that amounted to so little."

    Churchill would be proud indeed !!!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "All I have to say is your theory is obviously flawed of looking at the entire line-ups and averaging the prices. Each lineup is made up of numerous components(models) and saying the sales are higher because price is lower is B.S."

    I think you're getting off track here. All I'm saying is that when you get past the C and ML Mercedes-Benz is at a price disadvantage compared to Lexus. Yes you are correct in the two examples you gave about the ML and C-Class vs the RX and IS/ES, but this isn't the whole lineup which has to factor into overall sales when they're counted up at the end of the year. You continue to ignore the other 7 models that Mercedes has, that cost more than Lexus'.

    "1) The original RX300 and ML320 came out at basically the same time with similar MSRPs. And the RX300 even outsold the ML 2 to 1 to 3 to 1 margin."

    Max I didn't say that price was the only reason why certain Lexi might outsell certain Mercedes'. Clearly the RX outselling the ML isn't price related. I think you know this already. You're trying to apply everything I said about pricing to each and every sales relationship between Lexus and Mercedes at every model level and I never said it applied in every case.

    "Funny thing is, even when the GS300/400 was new in 1998 it was outsold by the 2 year old E-class by about a 2 to 1 margin. I don't see the cheaper price of the GS helping it outsell the GS from 1998 to current."

    Same thing as in the case of the ML vs the RX, the GS wasn't what the market was looking for at the time thus the E outselling it. The GS was a tough sell anyway for other reasons, but those don't pertain to what we're talking about here. I think you know that my price theory is based on the MB's that are clearly way more more expensive than the competing Lexi, or the Benzes for which there are no Lexuses competing. My whole point is that how is MB supposed to climb to the top of the sales chart when they're charging more than anyone else in the luxury car market. This is what some believe on this board, not you necessarily.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't disagree here, you've seem to get my point that MB's sell for more and cost more out the gate, at least once you pass the ML and C-Class. I never claimed that those numbers were sales weighted, only that the average MSRP is higher in most cases and much higher in a few instances.

    As much as I love the E500 I don't think it is as much car as the LS430 for that price and I think most people would agree the appropiate Benz to be compared is the (again) much more expensive S-Class.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "I can't buy those numbers and this is purely from experience. There is no way the S-class sells at a $98K average. That would bean the weighted volume is toward AMG's and S600's when in fact it is way more weighted to $75-77K S430's and $83-85K S500's."

    I didn't mean to imply that the average S-Class sells for 98K, but only the S-Class as a group costs way more than the LS430. Even still using your numbers for the S430 and S500, which I agree are the bulk of S-Class sales, 75-77K and 83-85K is still way above the average selling price for the LS430, which is about 60-65K. My point still stands here.

    "There is also no way the E-class average is $57-58K. I fully loaded the E430 (4-matic) in 2001 and got to nearly $60K. Above that you had to custom order the car. There was a heavy weighting of inbound E-class cars in the $50-52K range which were E-320's. Most 430's were in the $56K range but represented only a fraction of the total E's. The only way your numbers work is with Enron-like accounting."

    You've got to stay current. That was in 2001. The average E320 on the lot now ranges anywhere from 52-55K. The base 49K model is sometimes hard to find. The E500 starts at 57K now. Most E500s are easily 60-62K now. Things have changed since 2001 my friend. These prices are way more than the average GS300 or GS430.

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Edmund's car comparator is a good tool for comparing car's features, specs and pricing.

    A comversation with a local realtor made me go take a look at the market another way.

    I think there is another way to look at the luxury lineup. Instead of arguing about pricing differences in traditional market segments, compare cars on the basis of similar sizes, performance, efficiency, warranty, etc. Then look to see what ones in that class cost.

    This is the way the majority of non-luxury cars are done - where entry means small and midsize means midsize.

    I did this an found that Lexus doesn't do well with the IS300 as a small luxury car offering, while Infiniti does. The ES is too large to be a 'small' car.

    Here's my small luxury car comparo:

    MB C Class YTD sales 21.3K units
    BMW 3 series YTD sales 34.4K units
    Infiniti G35 YTD sales 23.5K units
    IS 300 YTD sales 3.5K units <--- only one in class that doen't offer AWD

    Here's my midsize luxury car comparo:

    MB E Class YTD 17.3K units
    BMW 5 series YTD sales 14.7K units
    Lexus ES 330 YTD sales 24.1K units
    GS fits here too 2.5K units

    Here's my large size luxury car comparo:

    MB S Class YTD Sales 5.5K units
    BMW 7 series YTD Sales 5.3K units
    Lexus LS YTD Sales 10.5K units

    This pretty much lines up cars with similar features, specs, performance and size.

     I think that consumers have figured out that the traditional definitions of entry, mid and premium for the luxury market is way off the mark in terms of the value proposition.

    I asked a realtor friend yesterday why she had a new Lexus 330 and not a Mercedes E. She said, "same or better features, rock solid reputation, 1/2 the lease price." So why not get a C Class. "Too small".

    IMHO, the MB.s aren't class leaders in anything but high price.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Do you have a trust fund or just a very tolerant employer?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I do understand your point that a higher priced product is less affordable, limiting its audience and therefore sales. I hope you understand my point that if additional value (prestige in this case) is present to offset the higher price, then unit sales need not be lower than a lower-price, lower-prestige product.

    After thinking more on this, I want to try to synthesize these 2 viewpoints. Let me draw on an analogy I made months ago. Suppose a housing developer offers two models of home, model h4, 4000 sq ft on 1 acre, and model h5, 5000 sq ft on 1.25 acres. Your point is that if h5 is priced 25% higher than h4, it will sell fewer units. I can agree with this, because the price is 1.25x, and the content is 1.25x; therefore, affordability will limit sales of h5 relative to h4. HOWEVER, if h5 is priced at only 1.05x h4, do you see that h5 will sell more units that h4, even though h5 is still priced higher and is therefore &#147;less affordable&#148;? If buyers see sufficient content (i.e., they smell a bargain), they will buy more of the higher priced unit. I am saying that there is some price, maybe between 1.10x and 1.20x, where unit sales of h5 will equal h4. In other words, there is a balance point, say at 1.15x, where the &#147;value proposition&#148; (meaning content) offsets the &#147;affordability factor&#148;.

    In looking at MB versus Lexus or anyone else, we don&#146;t know the dollar value that buyers place on prestige, and we don&#146;t know whether the price/prestige ratio is beyond the balance point or not. So imho we actually can&#146;t say whether the price of MB vs Lexus, taking MB's extra prestige into account, is limiting unit sales of MB vs Lexus or not.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    With all the talk on sales and prices, nobody mentioned (unless I missed it) that Mercedes last week announced a recall of 680,000 cars worldwide. This includes E-Class sedans built after March 2002, E-Class wagons made after March 2003 and SL models built after October 2001 because the electronic braking system has failed on some E-Class and SL-Class cars.

    The recall affects more than 143,000 cars in the U.S., according to Automotive News.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    will be more than 400 Horses Supercharged Northstar. The M5 500 might not be on top for too long
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    Of course we all saw that. But you weren't supposed to mention it! Didn't you get the secret message?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "I hope you understand my point that if additional value (prestige in this case) is present to offset the higher price, then unit sales need not be lower than a lower-price, lower-prestige product."

    I never denied that prestige favors Mercedes-Benz and it does make up for some sales of course, but this is only the case if the person can afford ($$$) to buy into this prestige. Simply put if you don't have the money prestige means nothing. You seem to imply that everyone can just buy up if they see the prestige, and that simpy isn't the case. Prestige or not, 20K is still 20K and if you don't have the option of stepping up all the prestige in the world doesn't mean anything.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    First of all, 20k doesn't reflect the real world, even at the S430/LS430 level. It's more like 13k there, and less (or nonexistent) at the E/GS, C/ES, ML/RX levels. Just go to the autonation.com website, search for the S or LS among the whole network, and click on 'msrp' to sort by price...the median in-stock S430 is $75,380, the median in-stock LS is $62,189. I know that looking at inventory isn't a perfect guage, but annecdotally, I don't see many people on edmunds or cl talking about shopping for base LSs.

    If someone is getting a loan, what does that 13k difference mean, a 36 month rather than 30 month loan, with equal payments each month? If someone is leasing, how much does it mean...a 4 year rather than 3 year lease or something? Personally I've always paid cash, maybe ljflx or someone can help out with the lease discussions.

    But I will grant that some INDIVIDUALS may be priced out of the market by the S430. Even if they don't want to buy an E500 instead, the mistake you make in your thinking is not considering the other side of the coin. To wit, there are some INDIVIDUALS who just won't consider Lexus because for them, they must have THE highest-prestige mainstream luxury sedan, period. Lexus just can't be considered, for such individuals. So just as price may exclude some individuals from the S430, lack of prestige may exclude some individuals from the LS.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Lease differences in some cases eliminate the MSRP differences altogether. Phaetons and A8's at higher MSRPs can be had at lower lease prices than custom lux LS30's and much lower than ultra lux LS430's which are cloesr to their MSRP's. No one seems to care. I paid $40 more a month for my $62K LS430 in 2001 then I would have paid for a $73K A8. I knew I was getting the better car and three years later that LS is worth more than the A8. People who were leasing ultras in 2001 were paying far more than comparably priced A8's and BMW's and in some cases more than am S430. Ultras at $71K in 2001 were going above $1300 a month whereas the $75K S430 I priced was around $1250 per. That was because Lexus was uncertain how well its first $70k+ car would retain value. The joke was that it turned out to be the most in demand LS back then.

    I said before a $77K 7-series was around the same lease price as the $65K LS430 two months ago when I leased but I had no interest. Finally the S430 was about $180 more than my 2001 LS430 and the price difference was $13K MSRP. The S500 price difference was about $350 more in 2001 then now but that MSRP price difference was $22K. To anyone above $250-300K in income those lease price differences would likely not be a big deal unless they were fully loaded with high mortgages on a first home or were carrying pretty high mortgages on a first and second one.

    My personal belief and experience are that the people reaching for prestige are not the S-class buyers but the E-class buyers. That's why Lexus will more easily convert an S-class buyer to an LS than an E-class buyer to a GS or LS. The other feeling I've picked up is a simple "in denial" thought process that anyone can match or exceed the revered Germans. Many of the people I've met in the past that put Lexus down had never even sat in a Lexus car. When they finally did they were amazed and in some cases converted over on their next purchase.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    http://www.batfa.com/new_car_toyota_century.htm.

    http://english.auto.vl.ru/catalog/toyota/century/1997_4/photo/892- 2/

    This car could give the MB S600 a run for its money; although the exterior looks like it is from the 80's. The inside is very nice though. Lexus should consider this car as a spring board for their new super sedan.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    The vast majority of LS owners can affort an extra $20 or $30,000 for an S class...Many have owned the S class in the past...

    I went with the LS because of higher quality and dependability...I think you have acknowledged those qualities in the LS vrs S class in the past.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    For the second time this week, I'll have to echo your words....

    "IMHO, the MB.s aren't class leaders in anything but high price."

    But, Merc1 argues that since the S is averagely priced at $98K, its slow sales is a combination of price and old styling ! Do MB fans not argue that MB styling is much better than the LS, yet use this excuse of the S styling being 4-yrs old as a rationale for its slow sales; and this is compared to the "vanilla" styling of the better selling LS !!! Makes no sense to me using this line of argument. Another angle to consider is that the S and LS have comparable features, and in some cases the S have some features not found in the LS. Examples are the "Pre-Safe" system of MB and the 7-speed (auto) tranny. The LS only just added a 6-speed (auto) and has no "Pre-Safe" like MB. Do these extra geering and gadget make a difference to sales or performance of the S over the LS ? Sales - NO, performance - NO. SO why is MB selling less than the LS ? The higher prestige of the MB *may* justify its higher price, the better reliability of the LS *may* justify its higher sales. And nothing to do with styling - old, new or vanilla .... Maybe ?
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    Must be last century...

    :-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I believe the V12 in the Century is only 5.0 liter. Given that the next LS may, it is rumored, have a 4.5 to 5.0 liter V8, and will definitely have hybrid to further boost performance, I'm not sure I see Toyota/Lexus ever doing anything further with that V12.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    Looks like an old Chevy Impala with little ears! Hope I never see one state side. Lexus would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS if they used any design features from this car, period.
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    The Toyota Century compared to a S600 -- what a joke! I agree with scottphillip "must be last century" or maybe last millennium.

    I have seen them in Japan and they are laughable. Absolutely Ghoulish on their best day. They could only legitimately sell in Japan, third-world Asia and some of the former Soviet Union.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Great car for my buddy - merc1.

    I thought it was a Ruussian car when I saw it. Some resemblance to a Mercury also. I think this car will be in its retirement in the near future. But the interior is nice. I also thought the Crown (probably just as bad) was the top Toyota. No I wouldn't lose any sleep over this car in Germany. In fact its a helluva sleeping pill. Hey - maybe its a Lexus decoy strategy.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Actually this is not a driver's car at all. If you own one of these cars you are suppose to have it chauffeur driven just like a limo. If you think about it, all Lexuses are rebadged Toyota.

    Toyota Lexus

    Windom Es300/330
    Aristo Gs300/430
    Celsior LS400/430
    Altezza IS300
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They just haven't used the Lexus name in Japan so they brand those cars as Toyotas. They followed Lexus so the statement is actually made backwards.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well if a super STS cant take it down, I have little doubt that the next RS6 will. The new 5 has so far appeared to be mostly a disappointment.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "First of all, 20k doesn't reflect the real world, even at the S430/LS430 level. It's more like 13k there, and less (or nonexistent) at the E/GS, C/ES, ML/RX levels. Just go to the autonation.com website, search for the S or LS among the whole network, and click on 'msrp' to sort by price...the median in-stock S430 is $75,380, the median in-stock LS is $62,189. I know that looking at inventory isn't a perfect guage, but annecdotally, I don't see many people on edmunds or cl talking about shopping or base LSs."

    You're right one dealer's inventory isn't a perfect gauge. You're only looking at the S430. The S500 has been the bestselling S-Class for more than a few years since 2000, it is more than 13K over the median LS430. You must not have looked the E-Class and GS' prices either lately. There is certainly a difference there, to even suggest that a price difference is "nonexistent" shows you haven't looked at the prices.

    "But I will grant that some INDIVIDUALS may be priced out of the market by the S430."

    My point exactly! The S500 even more so.

    "To wit, there are some INDIVIDUALS who just won't consider Lexus because for them, they must have THE highest-prestige mainstream luxury sedan, period. Lexus just can't be considered, for such individuals. So just as price may exclude some individuals from the S430,
    lack of prestige may exclude some individuals from the LS."


    Also true, except you're forgetting that person who won't consider the Benz could still buy the LS, but the person who wants the S has to overcome something real....like having the money to buy up. You can always buy down, not up. One issue is easily overcome, the other isn't.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If Cadillac doesn't step up to the plate with more than 450hp with the STS-V it isn't going to do much against the next M5, RS6 or E55's mid-cycle replacement (read: 6.3L V8 500+hp).

    Say what you want about the 5-Series' styling idrive and what not, but the M5 performance wise is going to inhale this segment and all the rest are going to be hard pressed to compete at least at the track.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    We'll see about that. BMW basically had a free ride for years while M-B, Jaguar and the like made mostly weak competition. I dont know of any plans for Jaguar to do more than 400hp, but Audi and M-B are obviously not content with 2nd and 3rd place anymore. BMW has made quite a few mistakes, and their cross town rivals smell blood on the once invincible auto company. I wouldnt count out Japan either. The new M will come with 340hp stock, and if Lexus goes ahead with their 450hp+ GS"GT", Infiniti will have to do something to match them. The RL could also be capable of significantly more power, if Acura chooses.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We will definitely have to see what happens because I don't see 450hp doing anything but merely being "competitive" at a time when the Germans are pushing 500hp like it is nothing right now. I'm speaking in terms of the tuner versions of these cars only, not the regular models.

    I really don't think Mercedes was really wasn't concerned about "2nd place" or even considered themselves that with BMW because while BMW took all the magazines wins with the previous 5-Series, the E-Class outsold it in just about every country around the world. The only "free ride" BMW had was with the magazine accolades, not the market. Clearly though the new 5 has stumbled in design, which is keeping the harping about its still-good and class-leading (for right now) dynamics to a minimum. I'm telling you, watch the press put the M5 over on dynamics and completely ignore the things they've negatively harped about in the regular 5-Series models.

    You're right about Audi too, of the Germans I'd watch them the most. The Gallardo's V10 in a A6? Gee whiz that is going to be a car's car.

    The RL won't be in this league unless they get something with more than 6 cylinders.

    It will be very interesting to see what Lexus does also in the way of a hi-po GS, I suspect 450hp won't cut it by the time such a model arrives. Still such performance combined with great fuel economy can't be ignored.

    M
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    The fact that an S class Mercedes cost more, does not mean if you buy an LS 430 you are buying down...expecially since the quality of the LS exceeds that of the S class...
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    If Lexus gets into this performance game, Cadillac has to increase its Northstar displacement to something above 5.0 to get the Necessary #&#146;s reason being they are the newest boys in this European 'Sedan game'. Lexus reputation is very Solid and there are some Royal consumers out there.
    STS V could get a V10 or V12 soon, because there is a planned Escalade V with a V10 or V12. Cadillac has a good arsenal to turn to. Not to mention the upcoming 6. Liter LS6 Gen IV Vette Engine.

    However from inside GM news, it seems Cadillac has settled for a Kompressor Northstar for the STS V
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    It will take much more than sheer horsepower to determine the winning combination of balance, handling, comfort, steering, safety, 0-100/100-0, style, etc. I would say that a bet would be safely placed on the soon to be released M5 in this group of players,as the prior M5 set every record possible for the high performance enthusiast with 394HP. It's the entire package, folks and still incredibly desireable!

    I'll wager today... sight unseen, that the next-gen M5 will embarass anything from Lexus or Cadillac that is destined to be sold to the general driving public. And I'm not refering to simple 0-60 runs, either. I'm talking about the whole high-performance driving experience.

    I'm talking about taking these vehicles to an accredited road course for race-simulated sessions of sufficient distance/duration so as to test all operational systems of the vehicle.

    Neither Lexus nor Cadillac has had the history of building a winning formula into their mid-sized "super sedan" offerings... oh, that's right... Lexus has yet to release such a vehicle.

    Forget Toyota racing (TRD), which has been impressive... we're talking about a Lexus sedan sold for the luxury/performance buyer. Who cares how much horsepower the thing has if the tranny dies, the brakes burn up and the engine blows seals and spews oil. This is the reality that the M-series cars from BMW are designed to address.

    GM and Caddy...? The CTS-V is a decent 1st shot out of the cannon that remains to be tested in the real world of racing. I wish them well, but I'll place my money on the M5 when push comes to shove.

    The E55 is another case in point... focus is as a high-speed express train of an experience vs. more of a "motorsport" exercise, IMO. I'd love to have an E55 in my garage, as it takes style and speed into another realm. Different beast than the next M5, however!

    Not that Caddy and Lexus don't deserve to play in this league... just let them EARN their stripes before you make unsupportable claims. I'd love to see both succeed, as competition improves the breed!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Im not even a fan of the CTS-V, but you're incorrect. It has been tested at the track, and its nose to nose with the current M5. What the next car does to it remains to be seen, but aside from the launch problems, Cadillac HAS produced a worthy M fighter.

    Kompressor Northstar? Thats a german word, I dont think Cadillac is going to use it.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    My point is this... that the M-Series program has been racing for a long time and it shows. Caddy has not. Put the CTS-V and an M5 head to head for more than a car mag comparo and watch what happens! I'd put my money on the M5, although you do pay for it.

    Again, I certainly want to see other manufacturers push the envelope to improve the breed. The trickle-down into other variants is good for all of us! My 2003 e39 (530 SP) has many of the attributes from earlier generation M cars, such as suspension tuning, etc. It is an incredibly well-balanced machine.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'll have to believe it when I see it. I don't see GM increasing displacement on the Northstar or giving the STS-V a V12. I think you can completely forget a V10 because GM doesn't even have one. What hp ratings are they estimating for the supercharged Northstar?

    The CTS-V is a worth contender, but the target has already moved. I've yet to see the CTS-V even match the numbers GM quoted originally.

    M
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Merc, whaddya think of this?

    http://media.gm.com/events/productseminar/powertrain/pdf/XV12.pdf

    And if that's not enough for you, what about this?

    http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2003/4/cad- - illac_sixteen/print.phtml

    Anyone know what the Germans have lined up to compete with that?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Cien was a nice concept car, but it will remain just that. The V12 in the Cien is impressive, but it will never see the light of day in 750hp tune. There might be a super Cadillac in a few years with probably 500 or so hp, but 750...I think not. I do expect the 2006 Escalade to have a V12 option because GM has stated that is the only engine bay large enough for the XV12 engine.

    What do the Germans have? AMG already has a 6.0L V12 producing 600+ hp right now. This same engine is kept on an electronic leash in the SL65/S65/CL65 to protect the transmission. The same basic engine is present in the Chrysler ME-Four-Twelve and makes 850hp unrestrained. The ME-Four Twelve is being tested right now. Though I don't think Chrysler will build it, but you never know. If they can make the business case for it. Sales are up this year for them so they may do it.

    I have to admit I too went ga ga over the Cadillac Sixteen, but you can forget a V16 from anyone I think. The Rolls-Royce 100EX concept also sports a V16, which will never see the light of a showroom (the engine that is).

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    V16s will never happen. Nobody has done one for 80 years for a reason. Saugatak, I think it is GM trying to compete with Europe, not the other way around. Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar have had 12 cylinders for years and years, and the Germans still offer them. Unfortunately Jag is stuck using Ford 8s. Almost makes me miss my XJS-V12. I wouldnt be surprised to see a Ferrari V12 in some kind of super Quattroporte either, and I'm sorry, but no GM engine can even hold a candle to the 12s out of the Italian Stallion.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "I wouldnt be surprised to see a Ferrari V12 in some kind of super Quattroporte either..."

    Wouldn't that be nice! Makes perfect market sense for Maserati to combat the German V12s from Audi, BMW and Mercedes. Why didn't I think of that...

    M
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- - e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04515625
     lovemyclk you said
    "The CTS-V is a decent 1st shot out of the cannon that remains to be tested in the real world of racing. I wish them well, but I'll place my money on the M5 when push comes to shove.".

    Would you say that about the Vette? the CTS V is a Vette in sheeps clothing. Its way proven than the M cars. Going back 50 Years. the CTS is a real shot from a Bad old Cannon.

    What you said could be applied to the upcoming STS V with Northstar, an Engine that has not seen perfomance application not the CTS V. The CTS V is a winner. Just read the Reviews. All they need on that car is Better tires to deal with Wheel hop.

     lexusguy
    "Kompressor Northstar? Thats a german word, I dont think Cadillac is going to use it."
    It means Supercharged.

    As for GM having V12's They have already committed to building them. In a few years it might be intresting to have this conversation. There are the Nay sayers who said the same about Lexus. Today MB sells less cars than Lexus, Cadillac is back in the game with only three vehicles, CTS and Escalade. What will happen once they have more vehicles? Cadillac is going to play in this HP game seriously. They are not there yet, but they are certainly looming in the Rear view mirror.
    That is not good news for Germans, whichever way you look at it.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Member Posts: 486
    There have certainly been worse times in the luxury performance game...a lot worse. Guys, we're in the middle of a performance golden age. Back in the '80s, who would have thought we'd be talking about 500 HP engines BMWs, V-12 Cadillacs, V-10 Lamborghini-engined Audis or Ferrari-powered Maseratis....with a straight face?

    BMW is still at the top of the segment but it's clear that there are chinks in the armor. The 7 series was slammed for styling and the 5 series didn't warm up people much in that department either. The 5 series awful showing in the recent R&T survey was especially damning. iDrive is dragging down BMW's image and should be revamped or discontinued. And the X3 has been panned by more than one publication for it's buck-board ride. Still, new M5s and M6s coming soon show that BMW can still do what it does best.

    Mercedes has rapidly been closing the gap between them and BMW for the performance-minded consumer's dollar. Sure, the exact same people will never be completely in the sights for their brands, but the recent AMG Mercedes offerings kick booty and take names with silly amounts of horsepower on tap. Mercedes biggest problems right now are quality (which is suffering in their products worldwide, not just from one plant in Alabama) and a harder and harder justification to pay their top dollar prices.

    Audi has always been the stealth fighter in this group. With styling never offensive, nor particularly radical, they've built a quiet but loyal following. But with recent offerings to show that their RS cars can play with everyone else along with proven AWD technology, they always should be considered when picking from this group. Whether Audi's new styling direction finds favor with buyers is still to be determined.

    Finally, Cadillac wants into the game after decades of sitting on the sidelines. The good news is that they are truly serious and have full corporate backing to get the job done. The CTS found an audience with a competent design that only seems to be getting better with reviewers (again, read R&T). The Escalade rules its roost but needs a new design to keep it's place in the pecking order, not to mention compete with the likes of the Range Rover. The XLR has come out of the gate well despite its plastic body. The CTS-V took a good design and a great engine and proved that GM wasn't afraid to think out of the box to get the design they needed. They still need to solve the axel hop problem though, and soon. The STS/STS-V will prove once and for all whether or not that Caddy belongs in this game. Cadillac's problems? Interiors that continue to underwhelm and a dealer network that often seems stuck in the 1980s.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    We're pretty much on the same page there. Have you guys seen the recent comparo where a Quattroporte beat out Mercedes and Jaguar? http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=8113&page_number=4

    The part of my brain that buys Lexus says that it gets horrid gas mileage and that reliability is totally unproven, but the other half just LOVES that car. The first pininnfarina styled Maserati in 30 some years. Compared to the Italian, the germans might as well be selling washing machines, because their cars are just appliances.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Of course, it takes more than an engine to make a world-class car... as the CTS-V aspires to be. The Vette (at least in C5 and certainly in upcoming C6 form) is the "whole package".

    The entire platform is built to a standard and all componentry is designed for performance. With the CTS, you have a competent platform with a polarizing (to some) design and powerful engine. Yes, some of the hardware is upgraded, but the total package remains unproven at the highest performance levels.

    I say that we let GM learn some lessons over the next couple of years and let the marketplace respond through ownership experience. If the Caddy's EARN their spot in the high-performnce fraternity, all the better. This is not to say it isn't a great effort!
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    I agree, C&D said of the CTS. This is what a BMW should be. The BMW 530i was not in their opinion what it should be
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It's not just BMW. All of Germany is going insane with the technology. German cars are supposed to be about the driver. Germany cant do electronics like Japan, so they should stick to what they know how to do.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    But the performance versions of the High end luxury marques are not what draws customers to the showrooms.

    Who the heck cares about 500hp. It's totally irrelevant to street driving.

    And, if you haven't noticed, there's not a single Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Audi racing in Nascar. If they are such tough cars with wonderful engines and suspensions, why aren't they competitive?

    Anybody can build a 700hp tire torching street car for 70K or so.

    Duh?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "You're only looking at the S430. The S500 has been the bestselling S-Class for more than a few years since 2000, it is more than 13K over the median LS430."

    We were discussing the role of price in potentially limiting S sales. You and I and I think the vast majority of potential buyers view the S430 as the closest (MB) competitor to the LS. Clearly the S500 is a higher-content car.

    Frankly I feel your thinking is a bit confused if you have to point out that the S500 sells at a bigger premium to the LS than does the S430. Of course it does.

    But the appropriate way to look at this is that if MB had ONLY the S430 to go up against LS430, total S-Class sales would be LOWER not higher. Having the S500 and S600 to sell in addition to the S430 only ADDS to total S-Class unit sales, which your reasoning doesn't seem to recognize.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That's an interesting point. Lexus seriously thought about a more powerful LS in 2001 and was going the route of a 12 cyl but pulled it at the last minute because of its cost. They were still hesitant on high price acceptance by the American market. Then they introduce the ultra (which was supposed to be the car mated with the 12 cyl) with the same engine as the base car and demand far oustrips supply despite its un-Lexus like $71k price point. On top of that they push the LX into the $64-71K range from its earlier $57-61K price levels and still maintain the same annual sales despite a cheaper TLC and a GX. To me it showed Lexus would not have had a hard time selling a car over $70K years ago and probably not one in the $80K+ arena either in the near future. Their name is gold here now. They didn't give engine size any thought this go round because the hybrids are so near and they don't want to steal the thunder from the 2006 or 2007 new build - whichever it turns out to be. But when they bring on the more powerful engines and the $75K-$80K+ cars in the new build the S500 will be caught in the cross hairs and LS sales will rise higher by having models that serve a wider audience. The current engine output LS430 already pummels the S430 and they'll keep a lower LS model around to keep that going. If this really occurs - and I wouldn't bet $1 against it - it will lay to waste the price argument.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "But the appropriate way to look at this is that if MB had ONLY the S430 to go up against LS430, total S-Class sales would be LOWER not higher. Having the S500 and S600 to sell in addition to the S430 only ADDS to total S-Class unit sales, which your reasoning doesn't seem to recognize."

    No it isn't because there is a S500, S55 and S600 and those models all cost way more than any Lexus. Period. Your reasoning assumes that everyone can afford to step up to the upper 3 S-Class models with no problem thus their price not being a factor (hindering) in sales.

    "Frankly I feel your thinking is a bit confused if you have to point out that the S500 sells at a bigger premium to the LS than does the S430. Of course it does."

    I think you're confused because you clearly stated that prices need to be sales weighted and I'm telling you the S500 outsells the S430 some years. If anything they sell equally now so to count just the S430 makes no sense.

    They call it the S-Class for a reason..it comprises more than just one car. Lexus does the same thing without an engine change. A LS starts at 56K and tops out at 71K quite a spread similar to the spread between the S430 and S500.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Compared to the Italian, the germans might as well be selling washing machines, because their cars are just appliances."

    Gawd yes this is so very true, but in the real world the auto-manual Quattroporte is going to suck big time with its jerky gearbox and "brittle" ride. In the real-world is where the E55 will smoke this admittedly very lusty Italian "4-door" The E55 AMG was easily the best all-arounder of the three cars in that test. There is nothing with 4-doors that combines such speed and (yes boring compared to Italian machines) such sheer competence.

    "And, if you haven't noticed, there's not a single Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Audi racing in Nascar."

    Wow how ridiculously lost is that? Where the hell are Chevy and Ford and the rest of the good ole boys in Formula 1, DTM or any other real racing theater? Nascar is joke and a half and I'd really like to know what Ford and GM translate from their racing experience to their street cars on the order that Honda, Mercedes and BMW do with theirs? Due tell....

    Shall we discuss Audi's Ferrari-like winning streak in LeMans?

    sevenfeet0,

    Good balanced commentary on those brands. I personally want Audi to shove it to BMW and Mercedes just once really good. I mean build a car that they simply can't compete with, at least for a few years.

    mbukukanyau,

    Car and Driver said no such thing. They would never say that about a Cadillac. Road and Track said that.

    M
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