High End Luxury Cars

maxhonda99 · May 2004

Anybody a subscriber to Automotive News website?

There is a story on the website about Toyota saying a $100K Lexus is coming. Wanted to get more details if anyone has it from the story.

ljflx · May 2004

There are probably more than one coming - a sports car and a Super LS (which may be at or just under $100k) and who knows - maybe a super SC coupe type of car as well.

merc1 - I meant sportier external styling for Lexus when I posted. I also don't think they will try to rival BMW beyond the IS and GS cars. But the tuning arm will be a different story.

lenscap · May 2004

I have the article here. It is an interview with the CEO of Toyota Motor Sales USA, Yuki Funo. Nearly all of the questions deal with Toyota.

However, one of the questions asked is "Should Lexus sell a $100,000 car?"

Funo's answer is that for the Lexus brand such a car is important. He adds that at this stage it is undertermined what kind of car it will be and what engine it will have. Funo mentions a two-seat coupe and four-seat sedan as possibilities, along with engines like a "V-10, a V-12, or whatever."

He then says from a marketing and sales perspective there needs to be a strong car regarded as the flagship/ultimate Lexus. A car like Maybach is said to be too much, but they are working around the $100,000 range.

syswei · May 2004

From the quotes it sounds like such a car isn't exactly around the corner, timewise. Thanks for the summary, lenscap.

manybmws · May 2004

net pricing on recent 545 deal for $55k with nav/prem/auto/winter.

syswei · May 2004

Well I guess they sold at least one car in the USA...I saw one today, parked. Imho the exterior styling is kind of bland, but the interior looked nice and offered incredible rear legroom.

logic1 · May 2004

about local Cadillac dealers.

All car dealerships in the US are independently owned businesses. It is not legal for manfacturers to own dealerships.

It is up to the dealers, not GM, to decide how they want their show rooms to look.

exalteddragon1 · May 2004

Look, this car is awsome... but when you look at the horrible new A6, you realize they got 1 thing right... the speedometer, look at the STS speedo, even the lower rung CTS is cooler than this:

It just looks boring IMO, thats all. Its really the only part of the car that looks... dull.

anthonyp · May 2004

Just what we all need, plenty of rear legroom..That and a hundred thousand dollar (US)price tag on a lexus...Maybe some people need to think of the next generation, and how hard it will be to purchase a home and pay for education..Don`t get me wrong, it would be nice to have a really nice car, but the numbers just don`t add up for what any of them offer for the extra dollars...All of the above is just my opinion, and Lexus better keep the LS price around where it is, or else Tony (to be continued)

oac · May 2004

You'd be surprised at the increasing wealth in the US today. Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of the greater majority. So, YES, I do agree with you that a peek into the future portends a lot of trouble for our children. As a father of two, I am concerned. In San Diego county where I live, the greatest concern is that our children will never be able to afford to live in the same city they were born and raised. The future looks tough indeed for the gen-Xers out there.

Will Lexus sell a $100K+ car ? Of course they will, and their will be a waiting list too. A hybrid v8, churning out 600bhp+, and 50mpg, with gizmos out of the wahzoo... on a stretched wheelbase, representing the ultimate in luxury and refinement. Yes, I bet they will indeed. See what difference a simple facelift of the '04 LS has on Lexus fortunes this year so far? By a ratio of 2:1, people are buying an almost $70K Lexus over an MB S or BMW 7-. Within 3 years, a $100K Lexus will not seem that much of a stretch either, IMHO.

ljflx · May 2004

I'm also a father of two and share your exact concern.

That $100K LS will likely have a long waiting list. It simply is such a major fundamental change for the market and will be produced by the most reliable car maker. Where I come from that is labelled as a "sureshot" or if one wants to use negative words a "can't miss".

Tony - I'm afraid prices will rise because demand will be high. But I still think you'll get an LS hybrid in the $72-76k range topping out at $80k or so. If they keep a gas engine LS around its probably in the $65k range - not all that different than today. Add $5k to each for the stretched versions and its easy to see how the super car gets into the $100k-105k+ range. But all of those prices are still cheaper than the MB plates they are designed to conquer.

jrock65 · May 2004

Lexus will probably make two flagship cars near the six figure range.

1) A V8 hybrid LS or V12 LS with the works
2) A halo sports car to against the likes of the NSX and the upcoming Infiniti GTR

There is no way that Lexus would sit around while both its "lesser" Japanese rivals have high-performance, image-building, prestige-enhancing sports cars.

ljflx · May 2004

I don't see a V12 anymore. They've had the ability to use the Japanese V12 for awhile now and passed on it. V12's don't have a long lifespan with hybrids around the corner.

jrock65 · May 2004

Chances are they'll go with the hybrid V8, but who knows?

The Germans will continue to produce V12 cars for the forseeable future. If Toyota really wanted to one-up them, they could produce a hybrid V12. Now, this will be a ridiculous car with crazy amounts of power and refinement, but $100,000 cars are supposed to be ridiculous.

markcincinnati · May 2004

Many of us actually like the new A6 interior -- and, in point of fact, I, for one, also like the new STS interior.

ljflx · May 2004

That's game, set, match. If a V8 Hybrid can get you 600HP what does a V12 Hybrid get you. Certainly a lot more excess and unneeded power. Certainly it gets the buyer a lot of bragging rights as well.

carnaught · May 2004

"... horrible new A6". I agree with Mark, I like both the above and the A6. Whether YOU, in particular, like the new A6's interior or not, in general the industry feels that nobody does interiors better than Audi and Lexus, (short of ultra lux Maybach, Bentley, Aston Martin, etc.).

Cadillacs dashes, as above need more complete gauge clusters. Aesthetically, they would be improved with more rounded contours, less reminiscent of Allante's, IMHO. I have found their interiors ergonomically quite good, however.

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .to underscore the point are generally "the reference" interiors when interiors are discussed by the various Car Journals (e.g., C&D, R&T, Automobile).

Cadillac interiors have been, not that they are NOW and not that I agree with this, characterized as "too plasticy."

The new STS looks like a big improvement.

anthonyp · May 2004

oac--I have already gone through the problem of the children being able to afford to live where we all have been brought up. In my case Charleston S.C. Prices are horendous.. That`s why I made the above post
I have stuck with Lexus since their start, and think imo they offer a good value for the dollar. They have pretty well kept the price within reason, particularly for what you get...I think the hybred will be a great advance, and expect them to keep the price in line. My last Lexus has all the amenities (lux) and I find I don`t use most of them. The radio is the best, and the cruise control is useful, but you have to pay atttention or you will find yourself going way to slow and not even know it. The suspension adjustment meaningless..After driving a couple of hundred miles today, there is no doubt in my mind that dependability and safety is the most important thing..If I were driven around then the back seat would be more important. The only time I spend back there is when we go on a marathon drive and my wife takes over after nine hours or so. They redesigned the seat so it is flat and I can go take a snooze..At the end of the drive of that magnitude, I never want to see a car again, but I soon forget Tony

blockislandguy · May 2004

We've had a lot of thoughtful posts recently on business models and the "space" where MB now finds itself. I don't have much to add other than the observation that IMHO a significant percent of MB sales are to status conscious buyers. These buyers are transients and would leave in a minute for the next best thing. The market place is full of companies that had the No. 1 position in a market and lost it, never to get it back (Izod shirts in the early '60s were huge, then they outsourced the shirts, quality fell, and they never came back to where they were). One of the big marketing mistakes is line extension (e.g., Classic Coke). Does an S Class owner really want to share status space with a $395 per month lease deal customer?

With their poor quality control and line extension coupled with the rise of Lexus as a prestige product, I think MB is at risk of losing the status buyer. Once he goes away, there goes the volume which supports the heavy marketing costs, warranty expenses, etc. Take a look at any one of books by Al Ries and Jack Trout (e.g., Positioning; Marketing Warfare; The 22 Immutable Laws of Martketing, etc.).

oac · May 2004

Don't forget to include the mpg from such a high-output hybrid V8 engine - 600hp and 50mpg; on a V8-powered car that is astounding. I thought there is talk of a 5.0L V8 with 340+bhp, right ?

Block: well, what you say may be termed heresy by die-hard MB fans around here. Hope you are wearing a steel helmet for the barage of words that *may* be directed at you for daring to suggest that MB may lose their prestige status to Lexus.... Heresy indeed, I dare say...

wwhite2 · May 2004

I am still stuck on the Starship enterprise / klingon warbird looking reference . It is eerily correct

pablo_l · May 2004

A V12 will always be the most balanced engine on the planet from an engineering perspective, thus it does buy something is eerily smoothness is regarded as part of the luxury experience. Then again, I6 engines are naturally smoother than V8 engines. Thus it must be assumed people go for the more is better premise, and in that case it doesn't stop at 8 cylinders...

The horsepower excess is indeed weird. Because once you get to a certain level, it's all traction control and tire bound. It seems vendors assume that again buyers go for the somewhat intellectually lazy "bigger numbers are better" premise. In 65mph America, with highway patrol officers with aggressive revenue targets, I just don't see the point at all.

exalteddragon1 · May 2004

yes, especially if you look at the "center stack" controlls. It just looks too... beam me up scotty... complicated and... 1980's.

mbukukanyau · May 2004

Make it so # 1!

portknoxxa · May 2004

BUT, can the STS, E500, or A6 match the sheer driving performance, handling, braking, slalom,0-60's, 0-100's, etc. of a 545? And I'm not talking about V-series, AMGs, or RSs, for which the E60 M5 seems to be poised to reclaim the throne.

markhampton · May 2004

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7121&sid=17- 8&n=158

mbukukanyau · May 2004

If a CTS V is going to Be Putting 500 Horse to on Tarmac, The STS V is going to be a Monster like the Lamborghini Murcielago. Unless, GM wants to keep it @ 500 HP and Let the CTS Rule the Brood.
Perhaps that CTS is just being used as a plartform to test for STS V. That is my Guess.

oac · May 2004

Why is their so much hoopla about auto styling ? Does this say something about our mental psyche that we "covet what our eyes desire" ? Good auto styling begets good sales ? and vice versa ? Seemed like this is a popular mantra around many auto discussion forums such as edmunds.

So why is this so ?

I've always believed in looking beyond the obvious, that is "all that glitters is not gold". Many times, the best looking guys on campus more often than not, pretty shallow. Glitters do not make gold, no doubt. Beauty, to me, lies deep beneath, hidden from the eyes of those who are easily taken by appearances.... Take the MB-vs-BMW-vs-LS debate we've often had on this forum. The LS continues to outsell both the S and 7 despite the disdain of some MB (and to a lesser extent BMW fans) of the LS's *poor* styling compared to the so-called *beautiful* styling of the S-class, for example. Many MB fans gleefully describe the LS design as "vanilla", "bland", "copy-cat", etc.... Many unkind descriptions, really. Merc1's favorite phrase for the ES and LS is "yawn" !

Strangely, the ES (YTD 17,676) outsells the MB C-class (YTD 12,379) by 5K units (>1K units/mth). How 'bout sales of the LS (YTD 7,877) outpacing the S-class (YTD 4,379) by 4K units (>1K units/mth). Include the 7-series (YTD 3,925), the LS outsells it by 2:1. If Lexus could beat-up on its competition with so-called "boring yawns" they put out like the ES and LS, heaven forbids Lexus should have better-styling of these cars; they may well run away from their MB and BMW competition. Yeah, MB is re-designing/re-tooling the S by 2006/7, will that help its fortunes ? With reliability problems, management problems, and brand dilutions, among other problems at DCX, my bet is that their troubles are far from over. Redos *may* help, but it will be short-lived without solving the structural problems befalling DCX today. Compound these with new releases from Lexus in the next couple of years, this will only further exercerbate DCX's woes, in particular. You may not be writing MB off (I am not writing them off either), but there is a lot of pain coming to them before they can right this sinking ship. Hybrids engines are coming to a Lexus and Toyota car/truck near you, folks ! And just when oil and the politics of oil threaten to derail the global economic machine steaming full ahead about now, how sweet is it to be rolling out a bunch of high-end luxury cars/trucks that will deliver high outputs and high gas mileage. Does Toyota/Lexus know something or what ? As they say, "those who fail to plan, plan to fail".

Yeah, MB fans, "yawn this"!

oac · May 2004

the point that MBs are priced higher should mean lower sales numbers, well I'd like those who use this line of thinking to tell me what is the profit margin on the S vs the LS ? And if DCX is generating as much profit as Toyota on their full-size lux cars. I'd wager it'll be close.... In fact, as footie had eloquently pointed out, DCX cannot match the TPS and cannot build in an efficient cost-conscious way to juxtapose quality over cost, hence something had to give....

The flip argument that low sales means exclusivity: well, no longer can MB use this excuse either. They are way over that threshold now based on their current management policies and business models ! So exclusivity and low sales is NOT in MBs plans, although selling at prohibitive prices on a 118-yr heritage is still, obviously cache...

YTD (March 2004-vs-2003) the RX, GX and LX sales are all way up. Even the low-selling LX with no redesign in like 6 years is up in sales !! OTOH, the updated M-class (M350/500/55) are way down in sales. With the exception of a small (~10%) uptick in C-class sales YTD, the E and S-classes are both down. To be fair, both the GS and IS are also way down in sales YTD. But for MB, where is the good news ? I cannot find one.

maxhonda99 · May 2004

oac,

"But for MB, where is the good news ? I cannot find one."

1) They have alot of new & redesigned products on the way. The CLS, new S-class, new SLK, new ML & G-class.

2) IQS has improved. Who knows if it will lead to improvements in Long-Term Dependability, but it's a start.

Also to clear up a incorrect statement, E-class sales are up about 5% this year.

"the point that MBs are priced higher should mean lower sales numbers"

Here's a point I would always like people to remember. Lexus has far fewer dealers than Mercedes and still sells more cars. Lexus has about 200-210 vs. 300-320 for Benz. That's a big difference.

ljflx · May 2004

When you read through it all - lack of styling (despite the fact that it supposedly "copies" what is referenced as a beautifully styled S-class) and lack of passion (per auto mags) are the only two knocks on the LS430. The fact that both are subjective opinions seems to be lost on everyone. I learned a long time ago that if you can't find something wrong with a tangible item than you don't have much of a case or argument. I got all A's in Logic in college so the first point is "totally illogical" to me as Spock would say and would result in an "F' grade. I mean - either both cars have no style or both have good style. But you can't have it both ways and personally though I like both cars, I prefer the LS to the old S-class exterior (and much more so on the interior) anyway. Lack of passion is just as funny. Sure it lacks passion if you want to compare it to the very, very low sales of an S55. But to an ordinary S-class or a Jag - no way. To an A8 or a 7 - probably but the ride of the A8 was downright bad and I haven't been in a 7-series so I can't say. But I'd bet a 7 doesn't ride anywhere near as well as an LS or an S.

What I find downright amusing is the whole copying issue. It is written as if it is universal to the whole brand by some but in fact is only in one car which represents about 10-15% of all Lexus sales. In 2006 or 2007 that will end. Plus they will have a tuning arm so the passion nonsense will also end. Someone better hope for a tangible argument soon because they are running out of road.

Lastly - I never met anyone who buys a car and doesn't like its styling. I can only guess that this becomes increasingly important as the price climbs to $60k+.

warthog · May 2004

The way in which the "lack-of-styling" and "copycat" arguments are both valid is in the sense that the LS is like a 6th or 7th generation photocopy of an original document. They look much alike but with a distinctly different level of visual quality.

topspin628 · May 2004

Having owned MB, Lexus and BMW here are my observations:

Quality-wise, Lexus is tops. Their cars are bullet proof.
What the mags and others refer to as passion, I believe, is inherent in the goals of each brand. Lexus chooses to deliver the smoothest, quietest ride, while the others tend to let in a bit more of the road feel and engine noise. Also, to my mind, the Lexus steering is a bit too soft and not as responsive but they have many other positive qualities that off set that. I feel that BMW steering feel is perfect, MB second and Lexus not quite up to par yet.

That said, one must make the choice of what is important to them. I can appreciate both for what they are.

As for styling, I think that the LS is very classic in it's lines and whether they "copied" the S class or not is really not important to me.
It would be like asking if Brioni copied Armani in a classic blue suit. Every manufacturer makes a classic blue suit, and rightfully so.

ljflx · May 2004

I'm afraid that is true of a lot of cars so why does any one car get singled out.

oac · May 2004

Max:

Also to clear up a incorrect statement, E-class sales are up about 5% this year

Here is the link to YTD sales for sedans sold in the USA. Sales of the new E is actually down. Check it out.

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

maxhonda99 · May 2004

I would rather believe Benz numbers as per their own press release for April 2004 sales:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/- www/story/05-03-2004/0002165803&EDATE=

designman · May 2004

"But I'd bet a 7 doesn't ride anywhere near as well as an LS or an S."

I don't know what your expectations are with ride quality. Many people who like big sedans also like the cushy ride. On the opposite end, the tight sport ride/handling is the BMW hallmark and is considered the one to beat. Haven't driven these cars, but would not expect the LS or S to measure up. BMWs are nothing without that ride.

ljflx · May 2004

For luxury sedans I want a super smooth flawless ride. For sport I'll take the harder ride. 7-series sales have never approached the levels of S or LS in good years (their record was in the 18-20k range) vs 30's for the others. Most years are in 12-14k range vs 20's for the others so it seems to miss what the market really seeks - which is not a bigger 5 series. That's my opinion as a lux car buyer and sales stats seem to bear it out. The fact that the A8 misses the mark also supports this.

michael_mattox · May 2004

Designman:

That jarring, tight, teeth rattling ride is indeed the best for those who believe you need that kind of ride the get the maximum in handling. (I think you are probably right that is what it takes)

Many of us older folks are willing to compromise and like silky smooth, controlled yet Ultra comfortable ride of an S or LS.

michael_mattox · May 2004

Designman:

That jarring, tight, teeth rattling ride is indeed the best for those who believe you need that kind of ride the get the maximum in handling. (I think you are probably right that is what it takes)

Many of us older folks are willing to compromise and like the silky smooth, controlled yet Ultra comfortable ride of an S or LS.

designman · May 2004

Thanks for clarifying. I hear you. When talking about "quality ride" it is sometimes hard to make the distinction. It's funny, when I'm driving my preference is the tight sport ride, but when being chauffeured I like it softer... don't want to feel the road. I absolutely love driving sports cars but hate riding shotgun. It's understandable how many don't care for BMWs.

ljflx · May 2004

Sorry - I of course did mean ride quality as to what I expect in a lux sedan. Harsh ride quality and high luxury are ok in a lux sports car and to a lesser extent a sports lux coupe but not in a family lux sedan. At least not for me. Just give me a great cushy ride with enough tight handling and road feel and a sumptuous interior. The LS430 delivers this superbly - better than anyone else in my book. Extra handling at the price of sacrificing that type of ride moves in the wrong direction for me. I've never been in an S55. I have to assume it gives up MB's great S-class ride though. But don't get me wrong - I love sports cars and coupes.

merc1 · May 2004

"I'm afraid that is true of a lot of cars so why does any one car get singled out."

Are you serious? You don't know why the LS gets "singled out"? Because no other car in this class looks like a previous version of their competitor. If you don't see this then you're not being honest with yourself. The A8, XJ, 7, S and Phaeton all wear their own unique styling, only the LS looks like a knock off of something else. To say that the LS looking like the previous S to imply that a lot of cars look alike is a grand (denial) excuse at best. That simply isn't true in this class of cars.

maxhonda99,

Sometimes it is best to not even respond to such ridiculousness, especially when they can't get the sales numbers right to begin with. This has been the case before, rhetoric based on sales figures that weren't even checked before posting. I wonder if they even looked at the sales months listed on that link they provided. Complete lost cause.

M

oac · May 2004

complete lost cause

Yawn !

Getting facts right before posting.

Even more yawns.....

Like ljflx said, if you are spending $60K+ on an automobile, you'd not be yawning at such a costly purchase, would you ? But how would Merc1 even conceive of such a simple fact ? I don't suppose a Mitsubishi/any Mitsubishi costs anywhere remotely close to that kind of money, or does it? Its all about credibility, Merc1, not paper words which are mostly all talk and no action anyway....

merc1 · May 2004

Now open up and give us the Gettysburg address since it has about as much relevance to styling and sales as your previous post does.

I guess you have to own a Lexus or MB to be able to read a sales chart correctly. Even then it obviously doesn't guarantee good comprehension of a sales chart or a press release.

Gee whiz you can only see a car when you own it. Think of the challenges this must present when driving down the road and not being able to see all the cars you don't own, but are on the road!

Quick someone go over and tell the host on the News and Views board to close all the topics that deal with styling because unless you own the car being discussed you can't post!

As before once the sales doesn't support the weak rhetoric, it turns back to the even more tired wannabe and you have to own one angle, even though that has nothing to do with the incorrect point about sales in the first place.

M

ljflx · May 2004

I think the only one who really cares about this whole knock-off thing is you. It never even enterred my mind as a buyer of the car in 1995, 1998, 2001 or 2004. I doubt most buyers even think about it. The Lexus brand has fully established itself as the #1 lux plate in the most important market in the world. It will move on to the world markets now and if you think it won't quickly penetrate Europe in the next 5 years you're kidding yourself. The new styles, performance arm and probably both hybrid and diesel engines are all about world expansion. They will establish factories in Europe because that is what it takes to sell there and it fits their currency strategy perfectly. Did you see their profit report yesterday. More than $10bln in earnings - far more than any auto maker and not all that much different than Microsoft or GE. Plus those profits were achieved with a 1.5bln currency adjustment working agaist them at the operating profit level. That clout allows them to do anything they want and they hardly care that a handful of enthuisiast are bothered by a copying issue that extends to only one car. The next LS will end the knockoff argument anyway and the tuning arm will kill the passion nonsense. As I said you're about to run out of road on the things that bother you about Lexus.

merc1 · May 2004

Nobody is doubting that Lexus will eventually be a success in Europe like they have here. I must have missed where anyone was doubting that.

Secondly, you're the one who's kidding yourself if you think that styling hasn't turned off a many people from at least considering the LS430. There is no way in the world that I am reason for the car being called a knock off. The press has harped about this for years. Read throught the boards on here and you'll find more than one post saying the same thing from actual buyers. There are some that own LS430s now and swear they won't buy the next generation if it comes out looking like another S-Class knock-off. Of course it never entered your mind because you like the car! Have you not read anything anyone else has ever said right here on this very board about the car's styling? You're in complete denial if you think I'm the one that started this about the LS.

I'm not sure where the passion thing came from, but just building a fast car doesn't equal passion either. Until a tuned Lexus feels/rides/handles like a AMG or M car, they'll still lack that status with the crowd that loves those cars. All the money in the world won't mean squat if the execution is off. Money doesn't automatically equal a an equal to BMW and Mercedes' tuner cars.

The thing that gets me while you're painting this picture of total domination by Toyota/Lexus is that it seems to imply that Germany will stand still and just watch. Like they don't have a model offensive planned either.

Very impressive about their earnings. Toyota has out-earned DCX, GM and Ford combined X2. Holy cow that is a lot of money and really a scary accomplishment for Detroit's execs to digest no doubt. Until Detroit changes the way the do business on the car end and with their unions, healthcare and pensions they're stuck with permanent profit drains.

M

jrock65 · May 2004

Lexus sells the more cars than MB or BMW, but I don't think that fully establishes it as the #1 lux plate in the US. In most people's minds, it's still:

1) MB
2) BMW
3) Lexus

Not counting ultra lux names such as Aston Martin or Bentley, of course.

michael_mattox · May 2004

Merc.

Do you think that if Mercedes went back to their former style that Lexus "copied" they would sell a lot more cars.

Might be a good business plan for them.

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