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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "And, if you haven't noticed, there's not a single Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Audi racing in Nascar. If they are such tough cars with wonderful engines and suspensions, why aren't they competitive?"

    I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most brainless statements I've seen on this forum. Just so you know, BMW, Porsche, M-B, Jaguar, Ferrari, Audi, Lotus, Maserati, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have long and prestigious racing histories. They also take lessons learned from say the M3-GTR and apply it directly to street cars like the M3 CSL. Or the 911 GT2. An Audi R8 would mop up any Nascar class Taurus or Monte Carlo.

    Merc, Maserati has continually refined its SMG. Drive an '01 Coupe Cambiocorsa and the US spec Quattroporte and you'll see what i mean. Its not perfect yet, but give them another few years to work on it, and it should be on the level of a conventional automatic. Also, the US spec suspension is supposed to be tweaked for our roads as well. The blown M-B 5.5L in the E had better be waxing the Ferrari 4.2L, or M-B would be doing something seriously wrong. However, the Ferrari powerplant has got SOUL. The Benz, with its plastic engine cover, is just an appliance, handbuilt or not.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "The blown M-B 5.5L in the E had better be waxing the Ferrari 4.2L, or M-B would be doing something seriously wrong. However, the Ferrari powerplant has got SOUL. The Benz, with its plastic engine cover, is just an appliance, handbuilt or not."

    Compared to Italian cars...gulp(!) yep! Being a fan of Italian cars I have no rebuttle. Defense rests...lol.

    What I'm waiting for is Maserati to adapt VW's DSG to their next generation Sypder and Coupe, and possibly to the Quattroporte. I've driven the TT 3.2 V6 DSG and it really is this close to being the perfect gearbox. I'm reading that the 2005 911 may have this gearbox as on option. Have you driven the DSG?

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Cant say that I have, the TT has never interested me so I havent bothered to try. If it is as good as you say though, I just may have to give it a look. Does it do as good of job as the M3 SMG?
  • eaton53eaton53 Member Posts: 356
    "I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most brainless statements I've seen on this forum. Just so you know, BMW, Porsche, M-B, Jaguar, Ferrari, Audi, Lotus, Maserati, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have long and prestigious racing histories."

    Yeah, NASCAR's are purpose built race cars... don't have a single thing to do with production cars. Sounds like Toyota's getting in around '06.

    "An Audi R8 would mop up any Nascar class Taurus or Monte Carlo."

    Naw... the 'ol boys'll put 'em in the fence. :-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "No it isn't because there is a S500, S55 and S600 and those models all cost way more than any Lexus. Period. Your reasoning assumes that everyone can afford to step up to the upper 3 S-Class models with no problem thus their price not being a factor (hindering) in sales."

    I disagree with your reasoning on a couple of levels.

    1. You are pretending that a wider model/price range hurts sales rather than helps sales. If we used your reasoning, then if Lexus were to introduce a 100k or even 200k super-LS, it would hurt overall LS unit sales. So I guess they'll never introduce higher-end models than the LS430, because it would hurt overall unit sales? Come on, merc1, you should know better than that! Put another way, if the wider price/model range is hindering S-Class sales, why doesn't MB just discontinue the higher-end models, and market just the S430? By your reasoning, S-Class sales would increase.

    2. You are talking about the price-sensitive buyer, but seem to fail to recognize that such a buyer need not buy a S500, S55/65, or S600. If he wants an S he can buy the S430. S-Class sales are NOT limited by the existence of the higher-trim lines, as long as the S430 is still marketed.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    I think the discussions about pricing and whether folks factor it in about 50K would be more interesting if one were able to demonstrate that specific price points actually were barriers for certain customers.

    What are the median incomes of the LS and S430 'buyers'. How many buy vs. lease. How many find that $1250 a month lease is a hardship, while $1000 isn't? What is their trade-off - $200 or $300 a month a very small amount.

    What % of these cars are paid for by these drivers' businesses? For example, how many VP's are there in the Fortune 2500 on car plans - maybe 25,000 to 50,000? How many people in similar sized private businesses. Another 50,000?

    I find it unlikely that the CEO of $100 million/yr up companies tells his Veeps that they can't spend more than $1200 on a car unless it comes right off the top of their $200K comp package. And they all go 'ouch'.

    Many of the people driving these cars aren't buying them or paying for them. They don't bail to a Lexus because the can't afford an S55. They drive it because of the way it looks, drives and how reliable it is. These days it looks like a very, very good decision amongst their peers. Maybe they look at an S55 and wonder how silly that would look in the lot - worrying about a "Feeling your oats, Charlie?" comment as if they were 23 again and dumping their paychecks into NOx upgrades for your Civic.

    So the real issue here is to put some facts and figures out there that talk about the 'buyers' financial profiles and where the money comes from that actually pays for them. Last time I checked with my MB/BMW friends, more than 75% here in New England were leasing.

    Small money from $65K to $80K in a lease.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    If having multiple models in one product range doesn't help sales then what is the point?

    I mean if Mercedes sells only a S430 and sells, for example, 20K units annually, or sells a S430, S500, S600, S55, and still sells only 20K units annually, why would they spend the millions of additional dollars in development, manufacturing, engineering, marketing, legalizing(engines & names) if they end up selling no additional units of the product? Mercedes would essentially end up making less money per car(a lot less) by having multiple engines in the same body style car for no reason.

    It's quite obvious Mercedes having a S430, S500, S55, S600 helps it reach a larger potential buying audience. Such as the S55 helps the S-class reach a buyer who wants a the room of a S-class but wants a much sportier car, without the S55, Mercedes would probably lose that sale to BMW, or now Maserati.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Good points except the ownership factor. Most people buying or leasing these cars are doing it with their own money. Direct payments by companies for cars are almost unheard of now and car allowances as part of salary are usually in the $500-$700 a month range (pre-tax). They are also less and less common than in the late 90's. Unlike salaries, once they are set they are not adjusted for inflation. I would bet that the Lease-buy ratio is 50-50 up front and some buy the cars at lease end as well. My experience is that it is better to lease and buy at lease end with these cars rather than buy up front - in most cases.

    Maxhonda99 - The S55 and S600 are halo cars as far as I'm concerned. The S600 only sells about 1,000 units a year in the US. Only 15,000 AMG cars are sold annually worldwide and the S55 probably is a small percentage of those cars. But sometimes when you read these boards those AMG's are represented as if they are mainstream MB's rather than cars that represent 1.5% of their worldwide sales. Though the S55 and S600 represent miniscule sales numbers by themselves their halo effect helps sell mainstream S-class cars. But again that is a gap Lexus - even more so than BMW - intends to close in the next few years. Right now there is no halo effect for the LS430.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    And it's still small money...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Just my CFO experience and professional contacts of what is going on. In all the acquisitions I've done I also didn't come across anything more than an average $500-$600 a month car allowance - usually for salesman. The biggest car allowance I've ever seen was $1200 but that was a standalone.

    Lease/buy ratio - read a statistic like that somewhere recently but I'm not sure where. In fact it may have been more weighted to the buy side. However in the larger, higher wealth zip codes I would think that leasing is a 60%+ factor in the ratio. But that's just my gut.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    In this Luxury Car Class the S Series...The 700 series and the LS..The discussion to revolve around the price of the car seems silly to me..

    Which is the best car, which handles best, which has the best ride is the most quiet, handles better, is safer, is most dependable..etc.

    To say one of these cars is better or worse then the others because of price or even total sales (although total sales does indicate people voting with their pocketbook) does not tell the story of which is the BEST.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    You are probably correct, AMG sales probably make up only about 1.5% yet everyone makes it seem like 50% of sales or something. I did some quick stats on BMWs M-lineup last year and their total M-lineup sales in the US in 2003 came up to just a tick under 1%. I would think Mercedes numbers would be similar.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    "Cant say that I have, the TT has never interested me so I havent bothered to try. If it is as good as you say though, I just may have to give it a look. Does it do as good of job as the M3 SMG?
    "

    No, the Audi DSG is better -- not that the SMG is bad, but the DSG is another forward step in this kind of technology.

    If your lack of interest in the TT is styling related or size related, so be it. If you have a spare couple of hours some day, however, take a nice long test drive in a 3.2L DSG equipped TT -- they're pretty sweet.

    Too small for my tastes (our TT's have all been my wife's) -- but worth a shot to enjoy the marriage of the engine and transmission. Makes me long for a higher performance version perhaps in an S4 or an A6! Heck why not in an STS even!?!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You know, the whole tenor of discussion around here is centered around getting Merc to admit that the Lexus is better than Mercedes, and the LS is better than S. He already acknowledges that Lexus makes a quality car. But you aren’t getting him to say the LS is best or better than the S, or that Lexus is better than Mercedes. AIN’T HAPPENIN’ GENTS! Give up, move on, go polish your LSs, or light a votive candle with the hope that the next LS doesn’t go the way of cheesy cars like the ES, GS, Camry, Celica and the rest of the styling disasters that Toyota/Lexus is foisting upon us.

    :-)
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Designman:

    Actually the tenor seems to me to be responding to Merc's little lexus digs in his messages. Rather then the other way around.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Styling disasters from Toyota/Lexus ? Toyota is not alone in styling disasters are they ??? Methinks BMW ain't doing any better either!
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    I am of the opinion that all cultures are equally capable of developing whatever technology they set their minds to. Who would have thought that a Rebadged Toyota Crown of 1990 sold as Lexus LS would be an S Class fighter it is now?
    Likewise the problems Germans are having now might silence the Nay sayers two models down. Same for those saying that Cadillac is not probably up to the Challenge. Perhaps in 2006 when the next generation CTS hits the market, a more compact car, the mighty 3 might not be so mighty after all.
    But its highly unlikely that other cultures could beat Kenyans on the Track. Highly unlikely.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Styling disasters and 10.2bln of profits don't go together. If they do what will Toyota earn with great styling - $20bln. They already make more money than the rest of industry combined. Sales volume and profits speak at an astronimically louder volume than people's opinions. Money talks. Opinions are sometimes just wishful thinking or rejection of reality - on everyone's part
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    That is just an opinion fortified by the Market place. Nascar cars are driven as hard as any race car out there. If the MB's of this world were that good, they might as well show up for one season, show people the dust and move one.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    My uncle owns a 2002 S500 and he curses that car every single day. He said that the day he bought that car was the biggest mistake of his life. Second would be the day he married my aunt. They are still together after 31 years. That car has been to the shop numerous times for mechanical and electrical problems. On quite a few days the car simply would not start. He lives in East Hampton, New York where most of the snobs seems to prefer this 85 grand POS although he told me that he is seeing the LS 430 quite frequently now. He told me his next car would definitely be the Lexus LS430.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    michael_mattox:

    “Actually the tenor seems to me to be responding to Merc's little lexus digs in his messages. Rather then the other way around.”

    Listen, some people throw more than digs at him. Merc is doing what Merc does—defending the brand he loves. Some people take this stuff a little too personally. We’re talking about hunks of metal here, not human beings. Merc doesn’t seem to get personal, even when he’s painted into a corner (or sometimes appears to be).

    Oac:

    “Toyota is not alone in styling disasters are they ??? Methinks BMW ain't doing any better either! .”

    They’re both pathetic. If you’ve read my posts in the BMW threads over the past year, you will know that NO ONE has denounced the new BMW styles more vociferously than me. Furthermore, I have owned four Toyotas and am a staunch fan of their reliability just as I am a fan of BMW’s superior drive qualities. Styling is another story. All I ask is that designs are tolerable. They both fail miserably on my scorecard. At least there are one or two I can pick out of the Toyota/Lexus mess. BMW? Zippo with the Bangle-era designs.

    Ljflx:

    “Styling disasters and 10.2bln of profits don't go together. If they do what will Toyota earn with great styling - $20bln. They already make more money than the rest of industry combined. Sales volume and profits speak at an astronimically louder volume than people's opinions. Money talks. Opinions are sometimes just wishful thinking or rejection of reality - on everyone's part.”

    Indeed, I firmly believe Toyota would jack up their sales even further if they had butt-kicking designs. Their profits may impress you, but I wouldn’t buy a car based on a company’s profits no more than I would choose a wife based on how much money she has. Kudos to Toyota and their profits, but said profits will not come from my check book until they can sculpt something that pleases me again. Could be the next LS, could be SportCross if they throw AWD into, or it could be a Toyota in the ilk of my 1988 Corolla All-Trac wagon (long gone). Doubt we’ll see the latter though. And if they do to the LS what they did to the ES and GS it’s not going to happen. Can’t believe some of you make ex cathedra acceptance of whatever is spit out by them. But hey, it’s your dough. Can’t argue with that.

    :-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I agree with you that Toyota/Lexus are lacking compared to some of the competition when it comes to styling. Personally, exterior styling isn't among my very highest priorities, but I can certainly understand how others may feel differently.

    I don't think manufacturer's profits should be used to decide what car to buy, but I do think that popularity, or unit sales, within a particular class, are indicative of something. If there were a model that I knew absolutely NOTHING about, other than the fact that it was selling well vs its direct competitors, then I would be motivated to at least look into it.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't think anyone buys on the profiability of the company. Most probably don't even know the company's profitability in the first place. None of these guys - save Mitsubishi possibly - are going bankrupt or out of business so there's no fear of any auto mfr not being there for service or warranty needs in the future. But to have the #1 seller in the premium lux market and the #1 seller in the mainstream market speaks volumes about where people are spending. So I have to interpret your styling point as meaning the LS will completely bury the rest of the field (being first isn't enough) if it had better styling and the Camry will sell a few 100k more cars than its competition if it were styled better. I don't think bolder styling will accomplish either though I think the hybrids may play a role in putting more distance to the competition. Some realism is needed here as - to Syswei's point - the styling is plenty good for those buying the cars and they are many. It doesn't have to please everyone just a good percentage of the profiled buyers.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040526/ap_on_bi- _ge/japan_lexus

    Does anyone know the specific 4 Lexus models to be launched in 2005 in Japan ? I'd assume the GS will be one, but which are the others since the new LS and IS are not due until 2006/2007, while there's been no mention of the redesigned LX or GX.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Whew, thats some name you've got there. To a certain extent, I agree with you. However, you've got to agree that all of the electronics powerhouses come out of Asia. There's the stalwarts from Japan: Sony, Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Hitachi, Toshiba, JVC, etc. with the Koreans LG and Samsung hot on their heels. When's the last time you bought a German TV? Or stereo? Or digital camera?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Designman:

    I disagree with you...Merc constantly throws in his little digs and eventually people like me (me specifically) get tired of it and respond (to those specific digs)....I don't believe any of the responses have been of the personal attack nature...If any of mine have please point them out and I will work harder at more proper responses.

    Others have provided very factual responses to issues Merc has raised....I think their responses are especially helpfull to the discussion and keep the board lively.

    Both their responses and mine have however almost universally been in response to merc...Not the other way around.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The quote is "Toyota will roll out four models in the first year"...which is open to interpretation, but imho doesn't really state that the models will be new, though that's a possibility. However August would mean model year 2006...so, if the new LS is indeed a 2006 model, that might be one of the four. Also, I have seen speculation of a Sequoia-based replacement for the LX, for MY2006.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I can't see Lexus pushing out the old models in a worldwide debut (excep maybe the SC) that touts its new styling direction. So I think you get a 4 vehicle debut because you only get the new designs (and maybe the SC). I also can't imagine Lexus debuting without its flagship sedan. But the existing LS already sells in Japan as the Toyota Celsior so that's out of the question. So I'd bet the 3 new designs are the IS, GS and LS (as re-designed and fits with CR's report). The 4th vehicle is a mystery. It could be the SC. I think they already have a Toyota version of the RX and the GX so its probably not those. Could be the new LX but its not a volume seller nor is it something to lead with. So is it a new ES kept very secret, the old SC or this highly touted $150K sportscar?? Whatever the new modela are they arrive in the US right afterward.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Please keep your messages focused on the vehicles themselves and not the perceived intentions of other members.

    And for heaven's sake, doesn't ANYONE want to talk about ANYTHING but Lexus vs. Mercedes? I'm not really seeing the need for this discussion to continue under this pretense of a topic definition if no one has anything different to contribute.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We have another discussion that probably has belonged here almost from the beginning -- it is now joining us. :)

    Have at it!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Seems Pat doesn't want the thread to continue and the cars talked about in these 100 posts hardly fit the theme nor my interests so I'll see you guys on the LS and LX/GX boards.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "As is the coupe, the 645Ci convertible is a brilliant machine muffled under a blanket of who-asked-for-it technology. Putting down the top lets the driver strip off some of that insulation and discover a few hints of what lurks beneath: the best damn Camaro $78,295 can buy."

    Those of us that know the '89 Camaro they are refering to well will know that statement is a cleverly written slam. On BMW. From C&D. The mag's dont point the same "whats the point of this crap" finger at Lexus and Acura do they? Germany needs to do it right, or just stop.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The Toyota Crown is a different car from the LS, always has been. The LS400/430 has always been called the Toyota Celsior in Japan. The original LS400 was designed/tailored around the North American market back in 1990, it was no rebadge job.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The mag's dont point the same "whats the point of this crap" finger at Lexus and Acura do they?"

    That's because they make nice appliances. Hard to "slam" a middle of the road appliance.

    I'd be more than happy to plunk down $78K for "the best damn Camaro". That car is a stunner as I've been in one and I'm sure drives every bit as good as it looks.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc.

    This talk about not being competitive without 500 HP cars is just plain silly...How many 4 or 500 HP cars are purchased?...FEW.

    The car that will knock the industry dead in the Luxury Market is the new LS (Hopefully 06 release)from Lexus a Hybrid with big horse power getting 35 MPG....In a dependable Luxury car like only Lexus can build.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    How do you know the '06 LS430 will knock everything dead in the class? So far, I don't see any specs for it. What's the point of hyping it up? Better yet, how can you hype something up without any advance news, specs, features about the '06/'07 LS?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Maxhonda:

    It was easy...I clicked on Reply and typed in what I know to be true.

    Do you deny there will be a LS hybrid in 06?
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    but I wouldn't expect anyone to accept what "I know to be true" without some reference to an authoritative source.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Huh...it's true? Do you have any concrete information from Lexus(not autospies or something) about a hybrid LS? Not just that but is it "true" the hybrid LS will be as great as you hype it up to be? How can you hype it up soo much without engine configuration, hp numbers, torque numbers, feature specs or anything of the sort?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've been behind the wheel of one as well, a 645 coupe. I'm meh about the looks, its not attractive, but its not an eye sore like the rest of the BMW stable. It doesnt drive nicely though. C&D has slammed the 6 on several occasions because its bland. BMWs arent supposed to be bland. A G35 coupe has WAY more road feel than the Intel Pentium 4 powered "simu-steering" "simu-brakes" and "simu-throttle" BMW.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Ok
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Yes.

    You did not answer my question...Do you Deny that LS will build a Hybrid or are you stating you just don't know?
  • lexusguy1973lexusguy1973 Member Posts: 5
    I read the 645 article, and I totally disagree with what they are saying. The product may not be BMW's best selling, but it was a success in my mind for this reason: Infiniti decided to try to build an m45 coupe AFTER seeing the 645, they didn't even consider it before. All this complaining about the German cars, and Infiniti, emerging from the shadows, decides to copy bmw.

    Also, I don't want to criticize C + D, but i read the full-size pickup comparision, and I wonder how the Nissan Titan, which had been out for barely 2 months at most, which is a magnificent truck, could beat out the legendary F150. Nissan didn't have one bit of experience with a full-sizer before the titan. also, in the luxury sedan, someone want to explain how the vw beat out the MB S500?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I haven't driven the 645, but every review I've read save for C&D raves about the car. While you and I always will have our own opinions, the mags/reviews generally seem to favor the beast.

    I believe the reviewers on Edmunds, for example, really liked it. I happen to really think it's a sleek looking vehicle as I like the Bangle designs, the old designs were stellar, but IMO this takes BMW forward one notch. I know not everybody agrees, but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, my own impressions of Active steering have been less than favorable. I've tried it in two instances so far, a sport package 545, and the 6. In both cases, I much prefer the "crude" 540i's old fashioned mechanical setup.
  • carshopper1carshopper1 Member Posts: 5
    Was very close to buying a new 2003 745Li but after hearing so many horror stories and reading Consumer Reports' less than enthusiastic writeup, I've deferred th purchase. My smarts are telling me to just buy the Lexus LS 430, but I guess everyone in this Board knows it's just not the same. Has anyone here heard similar things about the 2004/5 maybe? Should I even bother waiting for the 2005? im more concerned with the car 'breaking down' then i am about resale value and the iDrive (call me nuts). but if i wanted simple controls and a great bargain, i would ve bot a Honda a long time ago. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  • aggie76aggie76 Member Posts: 266
    You should really take a close look at the LS430 with the Sport Suspension given that you are concerned with the "breakdown" potential. While the LS is certainly not a 7-series it is very close but better yet, it has the quality, reliability & price point that makes it a very compelling choice for many shoppers. I just bought an LS without the Sport but did drive one with it and was very impressed with the ride quality, just wasn't what I was wanting this time. Sort of been there in my youth, wanted more of a luxury ride this time to match up to my age. Have other toys in the garage for that sensation.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they will build a hybrid LS, based on the success of RX400h sales.

    Has Lexus said they will build a hybrid LS? I haven't seen any specific information on a LS hybrid. So what's the point of hyping something you know basically nothing about?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Sort of been there in my youth, wanted more of a luxury ride this time to match up to my age."

    Curious. What's the cut off point with age? Seems there are a lot of old goats around these threads in their twenties. I'm no spring chicken, but will never outgrow the sport ride and sports cars. The way that I see it there's only one vehicle that's custom-made for old age—the subterranean bobsled.

    "I was older then, I'm much younger now."

    - Bob Dylan
  • aggie76aggie76 Member Posts: 266
    Glad you caught that. Did the various Datsun Z, RX7, motorcycles & other hot vehicles in my 20's and 30's, moved into the 40's and settled down with more grand sport cars and now that I'm into the 50's have moved in luxury as my primary ride but have toys in the garage to enjoy the need for speed and excitement aspects.
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