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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Was that the S cost more money for all the WRONG reasons.

    Inefficient manufacturing
    Higher warranty costs
    Higher marketing costs

    This is the basis of the 'prestige' of paying more for a MB.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    You sure put it well. Tony
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      We've said alot about the prestige aspect. Just how many people are as informed as we all are? You're exactly right in your points about MB. Being educated enthuasists, we know what we're getting. But, I've seen many purchase MB for simply the perceived prestige factor. It's really perception isn't it? The facts would indicate Lexus is equal or better in reliabilty and ownership experience, but I get the feeling that the perception favors MB. What do you all think?

    SV
  • cove148cove148 Member Posts: 117
    Lexus.com, "build your car" feature varies by zip code on at least the LS430. For example the Dallas zip code least expensive package is the "PM" package and the smart access feature is bundled in adding roughly another $1000 to the car. Use a L.A. zip code and Lexus offers more lower cost packages. To me this is a marketing ploy, but it says you can price a car lower in certain markets. I am sold on the LS430, but could live without a $1000.00 access key. Lexus guy- how do you see this?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Perception IS Reality.

    You are right the AVG. guy buying a luxury car just doesn't know.

    Growing up I always wanted a Mercedes SL...Went out to buy one and discovered I didn't fit well in it and bought an Allante...

    I also began to learn that there were alternatives to Mercedes, Even the SL...the car mags actually favored Allante over the SL in 89 and I think 90. They also favored the 93 Allante over the SL.

    In short I began to understand the Perception and Reality of the Mercedes Name were not exactly the same.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its hard to tell. A lot of it depends on what the dealer has, and what sells. We bought my wifes RX in Carlise, but it came from Jersey. Try finding an RX or ES without leather. You're supposed to be able to get them that way, but its damn near impossible to actually find one.

    Eww.. Allante. Did you have to put buckets inside to catch water when it was raining? Lol
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    After about 1/2 a dozen trips to the dealer...They got the top right.

    Never could take the car through a car wash, without a couple of towels to dry it out.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    This:

    "Every single LS buyer looked at the S-Class and found the price "too high" so they bought the LS"

    was pure sarcasim in response to Footie's posts. Gee whiz. Unless someone spoke with every LS buyer you/we/he/I have no way of knowing this.

    My problem with this "over 50K doesn't matter" theory is that it ignores the fact that not every leases these cars, and that some actually finance and Footie would have you believe that every single person looking at the LS can just ignore such a price difference.

    I'm not even picking on LS430 owners and their wallets because we all know that some of them could buy a Maybach or SLR if they wanted too, but to think that this is the case for all of them is foolish. It also ignores what actual LS owners have posted right here on this board and others. The bottom line is that for some, 56K to 83K is not doable. This is common market sense 101.

    footie,

    This is recycled hot air at it hottest: "Most likely reason that LS outsells S 2 to 1 is that the S is a lousy value"

    Prove it. Question every LS buyer in the US and 1) find out if they even looked at the S-Class and 2) tell us if value was the reason they bought it over the S-Class.

    This is common sense footie, to some people price matters, I guess I shouldn't be shocked that you can't grasp this without a JDP or CR report. Let us forget the actual LS owners who have said so. When you bought your LS did price matter to you?

    Your point about why the S-Class costs more you hadn't even mentioned until now. Nobody is debating why the S costs more or that the price difference is justified, only that it is there and that may deter some buyers.......hence some people's simplistic look at the sales numbers to tell them which is the "best" car is ridiculous. When actual owners come out to say that price does matter, you change your argument. Figures, very CVT like.

    michael_mattox,

    Everyone knows why you bought you LS, your reasons aren't arguable with anyone.

    You bought an Allante over and SL? A completely inferior car because you fit in better, I guess we all have our reasons, but I hope you don't think the Allante was superior to the 1990-2002 SL.

    "Even the SL...the car mags actually favored Allante over the SL in 89 and I think 90. They also favored the 93 Allante over the SL."

    In 1989 yes this is true. The 560SL was based on a 15+ year old design at the time so I'd hope that in 1989 a three year old Allante was superior.

    However.......

    The introduction of the R129 SL for 1990 spelled the end of the already slow-selling Allante. Nobody favored the Allante over the 1990 SL except for that one instance and that was based on sheer hp/performance compared to a 6 cylinder 300SL. In this Car and Driver comparo they also had a side-bar on the 500SL, and it outperformed the Caddy in nearly every way. Not to mention build quality, top operation, safety engineering.. the list of SL advantages over the Allante goes on and on, again with the 1990 model. The R129 SL was build the old-fashioned MB way, like a bank vault and the comparision to an Allante was nothing short of a slaughter. A family friend had an Allante I couldn't believe that 60K car required you to get out and put the top up/down when much cheaper cars (also from GM) had power tops! By the time (1993) GM made the car even remotely close to being worth the asking price, the 1986-1992 models had killed the car's chances with the public. How in the world you expect to compete with a 236hp rwd 560SL with 140hp and fwd I'll never know. Thank god they did better this time around with the XLR.

    Now if you have a review in which the Allante was judged superior to the 1990+ 500SL I'd love to see it.

    BTW, I'm still waiting on the proof behind that innovation claim about MB/Lexus....

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Nope - you missed it again.

    Mercedes price differences AREN'T justified.

    They exist because MB has competitively inefficient manufacturing, higher warranty costs due to more defects and has to spend more on advertising.

    The nothing SUPERIOR about the cars to justify the costs.

    And what's wrong is that they aren't designed or built as good as the competition.

    Besides impressionistic assumptions like yours, if MB was executing at the same level as Lexus or Infiniti, the financial press would be singing their praises. Their P&L would be better, they wouldn't be losing market share in their own country...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Wow, unbelievable.........I said:

    "Nobody is debating why the S costs more or that the price difference is justified, only that it is there and that may deter some buyers.......hence some people's simplistic look at the sales numbers to tell them which is the "best" car is ridiculous."

    and then you say:

    "Mercedes price differences AREN'T justified."

    What part of my original statement don't you understand? Nobody said that Mercedes' price differences were justified. Who was debating justification of a Mercedes being priced higher? Where did I say that their prices were justified. Post # please!!

    Your whole reason for being just a few days ago was to tell me that price didn't matter.

    Then when actual LEXUS OWNERS come forward and say that price does matter (reducing that silly theory to dust) you revert back to saying that the price difference isn't justified, when no one was debating, arguing or suggesting that the price difference was justified in the first place!

    We were debating price in relation to buyer's habits and once actual buyers said price matters you shifted your argument.

    What did you tell me about adding "IMO" at the end my statments? You're in desperate need of following your own advice because obviously a plenty find the Mercedes price difference (whether is warranted or not) to be worth it....reguardless of what you think and you surely don't speak for the market.

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    The question in #5291 was very simple, (and we don't need a fifty page, wandering, melodramatic, paragraph answer),

    The question :

    How many LS buyers find the price of the S class 'too high'.

    IMHO, one day you will learn to use IMHO in front of your pronouncements.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    See there it goes again another shift. Now we're back on that again. Figures. Now you're no longer saying that I stated the prices were justified, so now we're back to the front.

    I Clearly stated that I didn't have the numbers and that since people, you know actual Lexus buyers have come foward to state that price does matter, that should be all the proof you need.

    Of course this doesn't help you because you're a CR/JDP graph person and unless information is in that format you can't understand or grasp it. If you need a graph conduct your own survey.

    If a actual Lexus owner comes forward and says price matter, that is the biggest proof anyone could ask for. Does their word not count?

    Did price not matter when you bought your LS?

    For a person that lives for marketing surveys and graphs you sure need a market 101 class.

    M
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    Price does matter...When...The more expensive item is inferior to the less expensive item.

    If you agree, and you seem to indicate you do, What is the agrument?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    Well..You have agreed the 89 Allante was rated superior to the SL of it's time and that the 93 Allante was rated superior to the SL of it's time...I can live with those admissions.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    My '94 XJS-V12 was better than the Allante.. except for all those service trips that is.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    lEXUSGUY:

    Allante could hold it's own in service required...they stopped making it in 93 the year they put the northstar system in it...the 93 was fast.

    The Allante always turned heads..it is a beautiful car still. IMHO
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well that would be your opinion :) I think even the short lived Infiniti M30 convertible was more attractive, but they both could duke it out for "worst '80s dash". Still neither of them compare to this black beauty. She was a real looker. I almost miss her. Sniff.
    image
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    lexusguy:

    She is/was a beautiful car.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're confused. What post did you read? The 1993 Allante was NOT superior to the 1990-2002 SL. I said the Allante was superior to the 1989 560SL. The Allante beat the 300SL in one test in 1993 and it did so based on hp, not a darn thing else. The 500SL slaughtered the Allante so bad to the point of market retreat, and except for the hp difference the 300SL was superior in every single way possible. You'd have to be either a GM employee or totally clueless about cars to think an Allante was superior to the 1990 SL.

    M
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    I could be clueless but I believe the Allante in 1993 was far superior to the SL of that time: Faster, more beautiful, very comfortable for the class, Hi-Tech rich, better ride, more room, a very usable trunk that would take a set or two of golf clubs and still have a little room left for luggage.

    But believe as you will.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    What? There is no way the Allante was superior in any way to the SL of the early 90s. That's a joke. The 89(maybe 90)-on SL series was unmatched. Personally I still like that boxy body style better than the current SL and that early 90s SL was a technological marvel.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If the Allante was so great, what happened to it? The automotive press widely describes the Allante as garbage, one of Cadillac's worst moments. I dont remember anyone saying "Mercedes killer" in '93. If a car is beating the competition, you dont kill it off, simple as that. Jaguar and Mercedes went right on making better convertibles.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I considered the Allante when I moved to the US and car-shopped in '95. Decided it was too pricey, got a used but fairly new M30 convertible (also mentioned in this thread) for $20k. The reasoning was the last thing I wanted to be bothered with in a new environment was car trouble, has reputed Japanese reliability considerations came in. The M30 did not impress: failing top, electrical glitches that ditched the car a few times, and finally paint that peeled off. Alfa Romeos were put together better in the early 80s. I ditched the M30 for a '96 (last model year) XJS convertible - white. My favorite car ever, and one I bitterly regret having sold. Argh. I could still kick myself. So I understand the ex-XJS owner. Which might serve as a lesson with those claiming a car buying decision is merely a price-benefit calculation: it's not, if that were the case the LS430 couldn't justify its price premium either, because we'd all be driving econo-boxes. The element of emotion, of rewarding ourselves etc etc is instrumental to car purchases. And when you get that right, wow. It's love. And the XJS is indeed the famous tale of the one that got away and will keep my heart halfway broken forever. :-)
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Lexusguy:

    Show me one article where the auto press EVER discribed the Allante as Garbage...It any't so.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The Allante was never highly praised. Yes it looked nice, but from what I remember reliability problems abounded with it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yep, all kinds of rattling interior parts and things that just fell apart, not even getting into the awful top.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I had a used 1998 back in 1990. I enjoyed driving it, but the top didn't work well. I did get lots of compliments on it. It was pearl white with dark red leather and had a custom blue and green pin striping.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I owned an Allante for 10 years...It was about as reliable as a Mercedes, I admit.

    I would note that the car came with a 7 yr. bumper to bumper warrenty.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Lexusguy:

    My Allante was as tight as a drum, even after 10 years. Things did not fall off of it. It's mayor problems were the top (you will never see an Allante that hasn't had the orginal top replaced), and electrical problems, especially the computers...BUT..It was a very Hi-Tech car for it's time and it was fully warrentied for the first 7 years.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    My XJ never had top problems, it was mostly electrical demons left over from Jags of yesteryear. Some of those demons are still there.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    My XJS was a total sweetheart, never had anything go wrong with it, and I put quite a few miles on it and it was my only car. Most troublefree car experience I have ever had, along with the Saab convertible I currently drive. On the other hand, the BMW motorcycle I also own is starting to act up most notably, despite the boxer's reputation for bombproof longevity... so it's odd to see how reputation plays out...
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    Pablo,

    My wife is interested in the Saab 9-3 convertible so I was very interested in your positive comments about yours. In fact, the husband and wife team that does reviews for the Detroit News just reviewed it and both of them gave it a "5" rating (which is very unusual for them). She will be very interested in your experience.

    More specifically, how long have you had your 9-3 and how many mile have your put on it? Have you had any problems with it and what is the dealer service like? Also, do you have a manual or automatic?

    Thanks
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    In statistics there are always outliers.

    Consider yourself, extraspecial. Can you imagine how many other car owners that have had BOTH a trouble free Jag and trouble free Saab ownership experience.

    Far, far left on the bell curve!

    Applause! Clap, clap, clap!!!!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Footie -

    Actually, Jaguar had turned the corner on quality at the time. The reliability record got very good starting in '94 or so. Several awards etc.

    As to Saab, there's so many of them driving around with over a million miles that I am not quite sure what you mean. All the people I have always known with Saabs drive them for 10 years+. It's a different car philosophy.

    JamesFletcher -

    I got the Saab in '02, new. I have put about 25k miles on it. Not a single issue. Thus I can not really comment much on service other than they are very nice and things get done very quickly. It's the 9-3 SE fully loaded with every option, including automatic. It *is* an acquired taste, so make sure you test drive it extensively, because you'll either love it or totally hate it. The new '04 model eliminates many of the former idiosyncrasies, however, but like any new models it's had some initial issues.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    These two cars belong to the list of *worst resales* in the industry. You'd better want to either keep these puppies for ever, buy them near-new (demo or low-miler used), or if you must own either of these cars new, lease one. The depreciation curve on Saabs and Jags is so steep, you cannot see it from the left side of the Boltzman distribution curve ! And Pablo just must love those hugely devaluating cars - Jaguar and Saab. You are one lucky dude, Pablo. If you are a betting man, I'd recommend a trip to Vegas and a bet on your favorite table *sport*, just for kicks. If your Midas touch with the XJS and 9-3SE holds, I'd say you'll bag a big one....
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    l never claimed I have ever bought a car for its resale value. It's irrelevant to me. If money meant everything I'd simply buy a VW Golf and that would be it. Cars are not a wise investment, and thus I don't consider the "investment" component. I buy bonds and stocks for that.

    But you are wrong in your peception about reliability. Jaguar's issues where gone by the mid 90s, and Saabs don't rank among the highest mileage cars for nothing. I know several people that drive Saabs with 200k plus miles. Neither car represented a huge gamble when it came to reliability - they're not class leaders, but they had no major issues, either. Both very mature models to boot.

    As to gambling in Vegas (we primarily go there for food and entertainment), I do that for fun very regularly, and my luck is consistently miserable, but I have a blast.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Your giving Jaguar WAY too much credit. Those mid 90s jags had LOTS of problems, including my 94 XJ, and my 98 XK8. Jaguar quality in 2004 is still rated at just mediocre. Same for saab. Just because you happened to get lucky with an XJS that wasnt in the shop all the time, it doesnt mean they are the most reliable cars ever. Lexus has that title. Ive been buying Jags 3-4 years in to avoid that MASSIVE depreciation hit, but Im going to trade my '00 XKR (which has had problems also, including a Supercharger that failed at 20K miles) for an SC430, which I can actually buy new.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I have to ask you if you're serious. I really took for granted that you knew more about cars!

    "Faster, more beautiful, very comfortable for the class, Hi-Tech rich, better ride, more room, a very usable trunk that would take a set or two of golf clubs and still have a little room left for luggage."

    Wrong on all counts! The Allante was not faster than the 500SL, only the 300SL, and I won't even mention the 1993 V12 600SL which would hand the Allante its lug nuts.

    The Allante was "high-tech"? Please tell me what was high-tech about it. Please don't tell me about gauges and the car saying "good morning" when you started it up. Yeah I know about that stuff.

    I know what it didn't have (to name a few things):

    The 1990 SL had a completely automatic top, only a button push was needed.

    The 1990 SL had the world's first completely automatic rollover protection.

    The 1990 SL (300SL) had the worlds first 5-speed automatic transmission, this was in 1990!

    All 1990 SL models had vastly superior engines to any Allante. The Allante only got an competitive engine in 1993 which was it's 8th and last year on the market. Typical GM move.

    The Allante had a better ride? I've never seen that published anywhere and if it did, it surely didn't handle like the rwd SL did.

    Styling is everybody's own thing so I can't tell you which looked better to you. I thought the Allante did have a unique look for a Cadillac at the time, but it didn't age nearly as well as the SL from those years, imo.

    Nobody thinks anything here, the Allante didn't compare to the SL. This is an industry-wide opinion. Everything about the 1990-2002 was superior to the Allante. The 1990 SL was a Mercedes' Mercedes. This car debuted many of the tech features every luxury car uses today, especially luxury convertibles.

    Saying the Allante was superior to the 1990 SL is like saying the 1990 DeVille was superior to the 1990 LS400! Something I'm not understanding here if you're used to Lexus quality.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Have you guys been keeping up with what has been happening with the luxury brands in China?

    Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac and Lexus all have massive expansion plans for their booming luxury car market. The luxury car segment is the fastest growing segement in the Chinese market!

     Mercedes has already sold a 100K S-Classes in the time they've been there. They're getting ready to starting building C and E-Class in China. They expect to sell 50K units there in the near future.

    Lexus plans to open 14 dealerships by next summer! They plan to either build or import their whole lineup for Chinese consumption.

    BMW is building 5-Series cars in China already.

    GM is spending 3 Billion in China, with most of it behind Cadillac. The CTS, XLR and SRX will all be sold there.

    Ferrari and Aston-Martin are getting in on the fun.

    Then there is this from a Carconnection article:

    "With his hip-hop haircut and simple T-shirt, James Wang might easily be confused with any of the young Beijing residents who came to Auto China 2004 to look and dream about the day when they could buy their first car. But Wang already owns a Porsche 911, as well as a Subaru WRX STi, and was at the show's press day to pick up the keys for his newest automotive acquisition: a Maybach M62. The 27-year-old real estate entrepreneur paid around US$600,000 for the massive luxury machine, after import duties and other taxes. "I like cars," he explained in near-flawless English, adding "I was just waiting for this car to come to China." Wang is part of a young and incredibly affluent new class of businessmen who are emerging in the new China, and like their counterparts in the West, they are struck with car fever."

    Yikes. Sounds like the hip-hop/dot.com/athlete thing we have or (had with the dot.com'ers) going on here.

    Have the world's car makers hit pay dirt or what???

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    We'll have to do better than this. Just making claims becomes circular. In the US, neither CR nor JD have "enough" data to rate the Jaguar, and the Saab does better inlong term reliability than the BMW 3 series or Audi. Research it. I did.

    More significantly, in Europe you have mandatory and strict technical inspections of cars for safety. Since *every* car on the road is inspected, those give one a very good indication of built integrity. On an average of 100 points for the car industry (more points is less reliability), the Saab 98-02 9-3 comes in at 60, Japanese cars anywhere from 70-45, and the most reliable car is the Volvo S40 with a reliability index of 40. Most Beemers are around 80. Jaguars from '94 on are in the industry average range of 100, some higher than that, but a short cry from the 200+ that Jeeps and Porsches and other exotics on European roads get. This is all from memory, but several European car reliability sites will bear the overall trends out.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Congratulations!! I do envy you. That is my dream car. A V12 dimmer. I love the new design despite what the critics say. I think the problem with the i-drive is overblown. The demographic of the 7 series is a male in is late fifties. Most people in this age group are computer illiterate and therefore easily gets confused when presented with such a brilliant piece of technology. Although, I am not an owner of the 7 series, I had the opportunity to sit in one and fiddle with the knob. My uncle owns a 04 740Li.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I read awhile ago that the VW group was getting 80% of its worldwide profits from China:

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200311/28/eng20031128_129212.sh- tml

    Of course, this might be due partly to poor performance outside of China, but I have also read that VW/Audi have very strong market share in China. Not sure of the reasons for that...perhaps they got established early?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    Here are some 93 allante features. Feel free to compare to any 93 Mercedes 2 seat convertable.

    4.6L V-8 295HP (0-60 in under 6)

    Front wheel drive (Great for NE driving)

    Auto Leveling suspension

    Front struts

    Speed sensative: Suspension and Steering

    AM,FM, Cassette, CD, Bose sound system.

    Bosh 3 ABS that cordinated with power to the wheels to help with traction in snow.

    Approx 16.5 cu ft. of cargo space that also had a pass through to the substantual passanger compartment cargo space behind the seats.

    A very extensive computer display of any problems with the car, from flat tires, to low fluid levels, to brakes, Lights, oil, pumps etc.

    A digital dash (available)

    Is still a beautiful car..At least equal to the Mercedes of that era.

    No it did not have a full automated top but the top did have automatic pull down and could easily be raised or lowered in 30 sec.

    Yes it did have it's share of electrical and mechanical problems but I am sure no more then the Mercedes of it's era.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    500SL:

    5.0L V6 322bhp and it had it since day 1 of introduction, unlike the Cadillac which got the Northstar in 92 or 93. Prior to that the Allante had that archaic 200bhp pushrod V8.

    Front struts on the Allante? wow! Don't all cars have struts or shocks?

    "Bosh 3 ABS that cordinated with power to the wheels to help with traction in snow"

    The SL had ABS and traction control also.

    "A digital dash (available)"
    not something to be proud of!

    "Is still a beautiful car..At least equal to the Mercedes of that era."

    Personal opinion. The SL, IMO, 1990-2002 still looks beautiful today. But, IMO, the Allante does not.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    LOL digital dash! I remember an old friend of mine showing off his mid '80s Vette to me with one of those god awful things. What was wrong with people in the '80s? Front struts too, wow. No leaf springs?

    Motown, you're wrong. I might be not be in my 20s anymore. But I'm a technical engineer for a company that makes equipment that does large scale CPU testing\binning. I know computers VERY well. iDrive is not a "brilliant" piece of technology. Its simply a bad design with a HORRID user interface. What can it do that you cant with one of Acura or Lexus touch screens? Nothing. You just have the privaledge of trying to figure out how for 20 minutes, before giving up. Neither of my said touch screens "crash" when it gets too cold out either.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Just started a new job, and my CEO also drives a BMW 760... the interior is awesomely made, and even though the lack of a shift mechanism in the middle and the exterior designs I'd still have to get used to, there's no doubt that the driving experience itself is fabulous and potentially addictive. I couldn't help but fool around with i-drive some, and don't think it that bad at all, the idea of reducing switch clutter is laudable, but *some* other knobs I'd still like to have.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...and it's been a good month for BMWs among my friend circle. A very good friend just got a 645 convertible. I am not a big fan of the design, still, but when you sit inside and drive around the car is great.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Ok here are the numbers for both cars, Any fair minded person who cares to actually take another look at the two cars will agree the Allante is the most beautiful by todays standards. I would provide a link but then I would have Pat all over me.

    93 Allante $60,000...A hard top would cost an additional $3000

    4.6L(279.0cu.in.) V-8 DOHC SMPI 32 valve engine (0-60 in under 6)
    Electronic ignition
    V-8
    Unleaded
    144 amp alternator
    770 CCA battery
    4-speed electronic automatic transmission with overdrive
    Front-wheel drive

    Steering and Suspension
    Hydraulic power-assist steering
    4 wheel disc brakes
    Regular ride suspension
    Front strut suspension
    Front anti-roll bar
    Rear anti-roll bar
    Front and rear 16.0" diameter alloy wheels
    P225/60ZR16.0 BSW AS front and rear tires

    Seating and Interior
    Bucket front seats
    10-way adjustable driver seat (2-way power) with power reclining, power 2-way lumbar support
    10-way adjustable passenger seat (2-way power) with power reclining, power 2-way lumbar support
    Leather faced front seats with leather side and back
    Full carpet floor covering
    Carpeted floor mats
    For the driver's seat

    Safety
    4-wheel anti-lock braking system
    Driver front-impact side airbag
    Ignition disable security
    Security system

    Dimensions and Capacities

    Door Count 2 doors
    Exterior Length 178.7"
    Exterior Width 73.4"
    Exterior Height 51.5"
    Wheelbase 99"

    Exterior Features
    2 doors
    Power convertible roof
    Dual power remote heated outside mirrors
    Regular style mirrors
    Rear black bumper rub strip
    Halogen fully automatic headlamps with washer
    Front fog lights
    Underhood light
    Monotone paint
    ------------------------------------------------------------------ -----
    93 Mercedes 500SL $98,000

    Powertrain
    5.0L(303.0cu.in.) V-8 DOHC SPI 32 valve engine
    Electronic ignition
    V-8
    Unleaded
    4-speed automatic transmission with overdrive
    ABS and driveline traction control

    Steering and Suspension
    Hydraulic power-assist steering
    4 wheel disc brakes
    Front anti-roll bar
    Rear anti-roll bar
    P225/55R16.0 front and rear tires

    Seating and Interior
    Premium bucket front seats
    4-way adjustable driver seat (4-way power) with power height adjustable, power fore/aft
    4-way adjustable passenger seat (4-way power) with power height adjustable, power fore/aft
    Center rear armrest
    Leather faced front seats with leather side and back
    Leather faced rear seats with leather side and back
    Carpet floor covering
    For the driver and passenger's seats, exterior mirrors, steering wheel

    Safety
    4-wheel anti-lock braking system
    Dual airbags
    Security system

    Dimensions and Capacities

    Door Count 2 doors
    Exterior Length 176.0"
    Exterior Width 71.3"
    Exterior Height 51.3"
    Wheelbase 99"

    Exterior Features
    2 doors
    With hard top
    Dual heated outside mirrors, driver manual remote outside mirror, passenger power remote outside mirror
    With washer and wiper
    Front fog lights
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    All I can say mike that I'm deeply disappointed in you here. You're really calling things like these features or imply that they are advantages?

    "Front struts"

    Every car had/has these, the Mercedes' suspension made for better handling because it was an even more sophisiticated multi-link arrangement.

    "Bosh 3 ABS that cordinated with power to the wheels to help with traction in snow."

    Uhh this is traction control which the Mercedes also had in 1990.

    "Front wheel drive (Great for NE driving)"

    And bad for handling which an upscale roadster should be able to do, it isn't for winter snow driving.

    "No it did not have a full automated top but the top did have automatic pull down and could easily be raised or lowered in 30 sec."

    Which was totally unacceptable in a 60K car! I can't believe a person that likes Lexus' attention to detail and full specification would make such excuses like this! Manual tops are for Miatas. Could you imagine that laughter that would be heard today if a car maker tried to sell a 60K luxury convertible with a manual top today?

    "A very extensive computer display of any problems with the car, from flat tires, to low fluid levels, to brakes, Lights, oil, pumps etc."

    What??? Every car has these things, with the exception of a flat tire/pressure system. A Kia will let you know if the oil has lost the plot!

    You post #5370 is pretty much irrelevant (the door count?????) and is just salesman type stuff which says nothing about the design and build of the Allante which was years behind the SL to say the least.

    When you get in your Allante I want you to tell me where the seatbelts are located. Then look at the SL's. That is the difference between a company that places more emphasis on leather colors and types than one that is engineering based. The SL's top design/operation is another key area. The automatic roll-over protection is yet another. These are the things that make a car a "luxury" car...things ordinary cars don't have. Looking purely at those specs that Allante was terribly overpriced and hopelessly outmatched by the SL.

    "Yes it did have it's share of electrical and mechanical problems but I am sure no more then the Mercedes of it's era."

    Wrong! Dead wrong! Guess who actually lead the surveys in 1990? Mercedes-Benz. Cadillac was at the bottom then!

    I must say I'm shocked that one who drives such a complete car like the LS could point to an Allante as being superior to anything.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Hey is that the new SL600 or the previous 1993-2002 model?

    M
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