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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Of course go for a higher mileage jaguar. Any premium nameplate these days has engineered their engines to perfection and they will run forever.

    And of course get the warranty. It's not so much the engine that will go, but different parts around it. Might as well pay the money now, in case you get a lemon.

    Get a VDP for sure- the extra wheelbase is well worth it. And those aeroplane style picnic tables are great! If you get a standard wheelbase, the people in the back will be uncomfortable- I know from personal experience. The only reason to get the reg. wheelbase would be to opt for an XJR, and you're not looking for that.

    So, get a higher mileage one, so you get a better deal. Good luck.

    A.R.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Surprise, surprise- the BMW came out on top. Any of the respectable magazines will always pick the drivers car.

    I would've stuckthe Mercedes 2nd, the jag 3rd and the Lexus last. I don't know why everyone likes the new LS that much- it doesn't break any new ground. Maybe for Lexus themselves, but not for the industry.

    A.R.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    I went and drove all three. What is the big deal with the LS430, it drives like an overgrown Camry. If you like the ride buy a Buick or Caddilac, they isolate you like a comfy sofa. The styling of the Lexus leaves me shivering, bland, bland, bland. Now I must admit that it is very well put together. My mother-in-law has had her SC400 for 7 yrs and 100k miles, never ever had any type of problem with the car or the dealership. I'm sure a new SC430 will replace it shortly. Personally though the car strikes me as soulless. I tried talking my wife into an S500 over the BMW for a little better reliability and service. After driving all three we own a 750iL. It is far and away the most fun to drive, the S500 is no slouch, but the BMW was clearly better. I guess I also have trouble comparing cars to investments. Cars are far too disposable to be considered this way. Besides not one of the cars up for discussion will become any type of appreciating classic. Thankfully there is competition, this gives us different flavors to choose from. Maybe I am just still too young to appreciate the serenity of the Lexus driving experience. I tried to like it, it is the most reliable, and has the best service support system extant. But lets face it, the car is a dud. The Germans still build some soul into their cars. I guess the thought of a few extra dealer visits doesn't bother me that much, after all it is a great excuse to try out something else for a day.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    It is so refreshing to see someone with taste- i.e. someone that agrees with me! I would kill to plunge my foot down and be rewarded with all the creamy torque from that 5.4L V12!

    There you have it- someone who has tested all 3 cars and came away buying the BMW, with second choice the Mercedes and in a distant third the Lexus. As it should be.

    A.R.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    When a company with Toyota's financial muscle targets your space you pay strict attention. When its new car is as well received as the original LS400 was you call in the generals and reserve the biggest board room in the building and meet very often and re-define your strategy for a long-term war. And you copy some of the things that make them sucessful. As the company gets stronger as Lexus did you make moves like MB did when it was forced to drop prices as it did with the S-Class a few years ago. You don't think Lexus had something to do with that? Do you think MB was being charitable? Stop living in fantasyland about these cars.

    This is business - not bragging rights. It's very obvious that cars improve over time but MB had to do more than it would have if Lexus wasn't there plus it had to drop prices. It will have to answer the raised bar that the LS430 put up pretty soon or it will lose its leadership. As for Lexus it's pretty obvious what its next chess move will be. An LS500 with better handling - probably right at the level of MB - and of course a better ride still and probably even quieter if that's possible. They'll be a V-12 LS600 option as well of course. And given MB's problematic acquisition of Chrysler, turmoil at the top of the company, and success of the LS430 that move will now happen at an earlier time than was planned a year ago. And you know what its better for both you and I because the competitive level keeps increasing. As I said its business.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    I don't dispute that the LS400 had a huge impact on the industry. But only in the area that it was an alternative to the traditional luxury cars from America and Europe. The only revolutionary thing it did was to be able to be priced thousands less than the originals.

    Therefore, it forced, like you said, the originals to drop their prices to be competitive. So in turn, it made the super luxury car more affordable for you and I.

    But I dispute that MB would've had to cut prices sooner or later even if the LS didn't come along. Look at Bentley and Rolls-Royce- they haven't had to cut prices at all, and they are still successful. Granted, they only cater to a very small percent of the population, but those few could go to cars like BMW and Mercedes, but they still go to Bentley and Rolls.

    People credit Lexus for being a revolutionary company, when all along the originals were making huge advances in the auto world which would eventually be passed down to the lesser models.

    Do you think that if the Japanese cars had never come along, that we would be living in the dark ages with no remote keyless entry and navigation systems? No, we would be in the same place. It was the MB S500 that pioneered the active cruise control, and Cadillac Deville the night vision. Some may see it as stupid, but it will be adopted by other manufacturers.

    Lexus does not deserve a medal for coming to the market. It deserves no credit except as a poor mans S-class.

    A.R.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm in business and fighting off an upstart to my position right now. I know very well what it means when a company like Toyota is setting its sights on me. You've got to be kidding if you think Lexus was after the American companies. It didn't need a premium brand for that. Make no mistake that it's going after MB's spot. It made that very clear with its original v-8 which forced both MB and BMW to make more cars with that size engine. This is only round 2 and Lexus is gaining fast. Round three when Lexus makes the moves I noted in my last post will be very interesting.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    No further questions, your honor!! They just don't get it...do they.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    I don't think you are an idiot, BUT I am not a poor man by any means...I do my homework seriously...I've owned the Bimmers and MBs.....(the BMW was a cool car)

    Guess what...I just bought an LS430 today because it makes you European heritage freaks look silly and damn stupid.

    Isn't this fun...bring it on....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm not a poor man either. And people who know me know that I'm not cheap - so there is something seriously wrong with your picture.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Interesting. You say that Mercedes will have to answer to the LS430 or loose it's leadership. You must have forgotten the Mercedes already has 2 cars that head and shoulders above the LS430. They are called the S55 and S600. The LS430 isn't close. I agree Lexus did force all luxury car makers to re-examine the way the price and sell cars. But design wise Lexus didn't do squat. No amount of copying and price cuts from Toyota's thought up brand could ever undue the accoplishments of Mercedes-Benz. I seriously doubt there will ever be a LS600, an LS500 I can see them doing. And it still won't be up to the level of the S600 or the current 750iL, not to mention the next generation 7-Series. Mercedes-Benz did not aquire Chrysler, so Chrylser's current position has very little to do with Mercedes' cars. The parent company bought Chrysler, not Mercedes-Benz itself. You're right it's all business, but don't please don't act like Lexus changed any and everything since it's introduction, a Mercedes was a great cars, years, and years before Lexus was ever thought up. Lexus fans always try to make it seem like Mercedes built junk until Lexus came along. Not so.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The LS430 is a good car, it has almost all the S-Class features for less money, but the styling and the driving is still not Mercedes-Benz. I have to give it to them though, Acura and Infiniti look pitiful next to their Japanese competitor.

    M
  • 4426444264 Member Posts: 67
    Does Lexus have anything in the same league as a M5 or E55, a high end performance sports sedan? I think not.

    I would pick an Audi, BMW, MB over a Lexus anyday for their superior driving dynamics.

    Even if I were driven by someone sitting at the back, I rather pick a long wheel base limo over a Lexus, the latter's suspension is so soft it makes me car sick. With a limo, at least I get more room.

    Don't believe everything you hear - Lexus are not that reliable, their leather seats wear off prematurely for example.

    The LS' drive is so isloated it's dangerous giving the driver zero feedback. Sure the car is quiet but that's about the only virtue really.

    I like the GS430's drive but it's lack of room is pathetic, I think a 3 series has more room than the GS.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    To say that Lexus forced MB to change the S class is a bit far fetched. So the original LS400 introduced in '90 caused MB to alter the W140 S class?? That is simply incorrect. The W140 was basically written in stone design wise when the LS was introduced. The S offered 4,5,and 6 liter engines. I did not see big price drops during the cars '92-'99 production. The S500 stayed near $100k and the S600 at $140k, all along offering more features than Lexus imagined. I agree on the LS500,LS600 it will never happen. Even if it does I don't think they will offer a legitimate performance alternative to either the top BMW or MB. I would see a move like that as more catch-up by Lexus. I do think they are fine machines, I do think they are very well put together. I also know that MB uses superior materials in their cars. The paint and leather in my MB far exceeds that of even my wifes 750. I would take either in the long run over the Lexus. My opinion is that the current S-class leads the pack, the new 7 series will be a close second (the 750 is awesome but an S600..ooohh baby!) and Lexus will continue to play catch-up. Since when have they been the innovators in this class. The Japanese are suberb copy-cats, and that to me is the sincerest form of flattery towards BMW and MB.
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    I bought a 2001 S500 not because of heritage, snob appeal, or because it was first with active cruise control. I didn't avoid the Lexus because of its "lack" of prestige, nor did I buy it because it was a good value (even if I think it's ugly).......
    I bought the Mercedes because I LIKE it better. It's impossible to exactly define if it's the ride, handling, styling, engineering features,,etc. that makes a difference. It's really a combination of many factors (although riding in an ugly luxury car might be embarassing).
    Only kidding.
  • prattsterprattster Member Posts: 59
    The LS 430 one of the world's finest cars is the industry benchmark for fit and finish, realibility and quality standards and best of all it comes from those quality gurus and fanatics the Japanese. Design is always subjective, I think the second generation LS 400 is more classic which will age better than the current one.

    As for some of the snobs on this site who say that Lexus is lagging that's pure frustration and envy since they know Lexus makes a fine product but it doesn't come from Germany.

    Don't ever second guess what Toyota will or won't do. They have Bill Gates deep pockets and talented engineers and can easily elevate the LS model to an even more lofty status than the current one. I foresee an LS500 model in the next few years just give it time. Perfection doesn't come over night. Performance additions as in 400+ hp to the GS series are in the works as we speak so don't think Lexus is sitting idle and watching its competitors cruise by.

    I get a kick out of listening to these Euro lovers defend their cars, but when I ask why Mercedes has all these realibility and quality problems lately they can't answer me or they say "yeah but it has heritage and a soul". When Joe Blow's Benz is in the shop for the 15th time in a year I'm pretty sure he's thinking yeah but it's ok it's got a soul. Bringing up Bill Gates, yes he loves his LS 400 and SC400 coupe has stated they are among his favorite cars. Not bad advertising I"ll say.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    say "Amen"...!!
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    LJFLX- You may forget that Cadillac was once the "Standard of the World". The words "the cadillac of..." are still used everyday to describe the best. So don't give me this bull that Lexus wasn't thinking about the American cars. The Deville DTS is a better car in my opinon that the LS430.

    WBWYNN- You must own cars for their curb appeal. If you are a person who actually cares about driving dynamics, you would have never purchased an LS430 because it simply cannot compete with the euros. You say that euro heritage is silly- the only reason the euros come out on top is because of their heritage- they have worked for years on perfecting their cars. Lexus came along, took the best of what MB had, and then tried to copy it. Congrats on buying your Lexus, but you could've got the same performance in a DTS for less money!

    PRATTSTER- I think you must be mistaken, because Mercedes have the reputation of being rock solid, which will last for years. I don't know a single person who owns an MB who has had to take their car in for signifigant service. And no, they are not C-Class owners, but E55 and S-Class owners. So don't critisize MB for being engineered poorly, when Lexus is just copying them. They must be doing something right!

    I have not heard any hard evidence that Lexus is at or above MB and BMW's level. Only a lot of mud slinging towards me, and my correct points.

    A.R.

    P.S. I look forward to the attacks I get this time!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Can you post a link to the article you are quoting and then delete your post?

    Either way, your post has to go - you can't quote copyrighted sources directly but you can link to them.

    Thanks.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    A low blow indeed....you've got to be kidding...do you actually drive any of these vehicles...from whence does this kind of expertise come?
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    Good Lord, what logic and plain misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of fact!! That Cadillac "was once" the "standard" has nothing to do with Lexus' obvious competitor the Benz S. No knowledgable objective car mag/enthusiast/writer I have seen or read has ever said the DeVille is of such high quality. It is always praised as being better than Cadillac has been recently. Even Motor Trend (no fans of Lexus there) said in their comparo that the DTS simply didn't belong in the same contest with the Lexus/Benz/BMW.

    Saying Lexus simply can't compete with the Euros is futher evidence of very limited personal opinion being stated as fact. The vast majority of the automotive press disagree. Whether one or the other is slightly better, etc. is open to debate, but to say it "simply can't compete" borders on lunacy. Good grief, the very article quoted before this post clearly says, not only can the Lexus compete, but in their INFORMED and EXPERIENCED opinion, it is often equal or BETTER.

    You go on to say a DTS is the same for less money and therefore a better choice!!! This is downright foolishness - yet you refute your own logic by refusing to admit that the Lexus (who all agree is AT LEAST a real competitor of the Benz) is less expensive than the Benz with the same features,etc - making it a better value!

    As for MB's reputation for "rock solid" and never in for signif. service!!! Do you actually read what people (actual owners-not phony zealots) on this and the S Class board write about their various S Class experiences? Are they just phony liars trying to destroy the reputation of the S??
    Get real. You are entitled to your opinion, whether it is fact or fantasy based. But at least try to stick reasonably close to facts when you level criticism. The S Class is a very good car. The Lexus is a very good car. The BMW is a very good car. We all want to satisfy our personal needs in our choices. In choosing my LS430, I partly decided on reliability, quiet, interior and value. I would have spent the extra money on the S if it bought me something more - in my opinion, it didn't. I would have gotten less of what I wanted and paid $20K for the privilege.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    That was a sensible post. I agree on the DTS, wrong league. You chose the LS430 for the reasons important to YOU. I agree, I think they are ALL superb machines. My priorities are different. The features that are important to me relate to the road feel and handling of the car. The BMW is where smart money goes for a sporty attitude and a few compromises to achieve it. I still prefer the S class to the Lexus, I think its ride and handling combo is a good compromise between the isolation of the Lexus and the sporting flavor of the BMW. For MY tatse the Lexus looks and drives too bland for me. The ride and the luxo features were simply not important. I don't even own the navigation CD for my home area, never used the nav system at all. Just an example of priorities when buying cars in the same class.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Did I ever say that the DTS is categorized in the same field as the rest? No, so don't you dare go off on a tantrum. I said that I think the DTS has about as much driving excitement as the Lexus. And I would rather spend my money on that if I was going to buy a luxo-cruiser, which is simply what the LS is.

    On the fact that the automotive world says that the Lexus is at or beyond the rest, that is pure crap. Edmunds own review said that for a Lexus, it is exremely sporty, but it still cannot compare with the Mercedes and BMW for driving excitement. And that is my focus- the Lexus is not a drivers car like the others. I ask you to find me a piece of writing by someone who has half a brain that says the Lexus will be more fun to drive than a BMW. Ha!

    I would rather spend the extra $10,000 to get some excitement out of my vehicle. In my eyes, it is not a better value because it puts the driver in complete isolation from the world. Yes, it is extremely quiet, like a vault, but I would like to hear what BMW has done with my V12 under hard acceleration.

    I do not dispute that the Lexus has all the bells and whistles that the rest have- hell that's what the Japanese are known for. I am simply stating that in the styling and engineering, they have copied the rest yet again, mostly Mercedes.

    As for your comment about being informed- I am a true car enthusiast who will read respectable publications such as R&T, Automobile, CAR and a battery of others. You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's.

    Whatever choice someone wants to make, is their own business. This message board is for discussion, and that is purely what I am doing. I want to seek the opinions of others, and maybe dispute them. I am not mounting personal attacks on anyone, as you are FLINT350.

    Good luck with your LS430, maybe someday it will be called the "greatest car in it's class in 2001", but I doubt that!!!

    A.R.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Webmaster- I would love to have a live chat about this topic. I see that the Mercedes S-Class board has a weekly chat, so I would like one here. If there already is one, then someone please tell me. I would like to meet, figuratively speaking, the people I spar with on a regular bases. Thanks

    A.R.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Arcoates - you've lost it - give it a break. You're in way over your head here. Chill out.

    Merc1 - Of course Daimler took over Chrysler. But in acquisitions the actual owner is set up for legal and tax purposes. Do you think they are going to look for synergies and operationally consolidate Chrysler anywhere but in the auto group? Heavy equipment division - maybe? - comeon now. In my company some of the CEO's would fall off their chairs if they knew who legally owned their companies or divisions.

    As for the next Lexus LS modification you can bet your house on a LS500. In an article somewhere - not Edmunds - it mentioned that Lexus was toying with a V-12 for this model year but dropped it at the eleventh hour - so that's inevitabe too and it may come sooner than anyone thinks. They'll never make the equivalent of an S-55 or an AMG but not for the reasons you'd like to think. No one makes meaningful money on limited production/special edition/custom products in any business. They are usually loss leaders and CFO's cut them out the moment business goes south.

    One last thing - Toyota's market cap is $128BLN vs. $51bln for Daimler. It also has $12bln. more cash and $20bln less debt. I wouldn't doubt its wherewithall and I'm sure MB is smarter than you about them. They are the 800lb gorilla here.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    I resent that comment- why have I lost it, because I choose to voice my opinion? Yes, I agree that I may be a little forceful sometimes, and people may take offence, but that's part of my intention.

    I am very passionate about cars, and enjoy a heated discussion. I am pro-euro- no doubt about it. But I have not "lost it". I haven't called anyone stupid for buying something Japanese, or that they are complete hunks of crap. I have said everything but!

    And you are quite mistaken about being "in way over my head". There is a collection of people, includig merc1 by the sounds of it that agree that the german cars are best in class. I think that most of the professional automotive community would agree- that is what I have based my opinions on- by reading about the different choices and making the tough decision of what is best!

    I am sorry if I have offended anyone. It is not my intention. In my effort to create heated discussion, it may have come out that I want to condemn those who favour the japanese cars. I hope to converse about these issues in the future with all of you- you are knowledgable and good to talk, and sometimes fight with.

    A.R.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That's a person who writes and thinks sensibly and that's what car selection at this level is all about. Each car serves a different niche and each one serves that niche better than the other. Your comments are all over the map. Go back and read them objectively and you'll see what I and I'm sure others here see. Merc1 loves his S-class cars too but his/her comments are quite sensible. He/She was trying to make you think more clearly with a comment earlier today.

    Relax and enjoy valentine's day. Life is too short to argue. Just get your point across and move on. Goodnight.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree that Lexus will do a LS500. I would too if I were them. Agreed. I agree with you on the DCX merger, but it will never work as far as Mercedes cars are concerned. They say the the 2 will never share platforms. I hope they don't. Ever. It's not about ownership of the company, I'm just saying the because Chrysler can't move enough 300M's doesn't mean Mercedes is going to be affected right away. Let me wrap the Lexus vs. Mercedes and other Euros like this. Lexus will always be the affordable car, the bargain. Mercedes and BMW will almost never be able to compete price for price with the Japanese. However for the true enthusiast BMW and Mercedes are the "better" cars. Performance, styling and design all go to the Germans. The more practical car is going to always be Japanese, but for anything over 30K I want some excitement and stimulation that only a European car can provide, and for me personally I can put up with a little less reliability in turn for more fun. It's cars like the S55 that make the case for the Euro brands. Nothing from Japan or America can substitue/compare. And Mercedes won't build a car that they are going to loose money on. They'll hike the price and sell less, they done it before, but never loose money on their core models (C,E,S, SL, CL,M). The A-Class might be a loosing sell but the cars we get here turn a profit, you can believe that.

    It's not like the S-Class is junk or even remotely close to it. Believe it or not but their are S-Class owners that haven't had any problems, like there are probably some LS430 owners that didn't get a flawless car either. I believe Automobile did a long-term test of the S500 and their car didn't have a single malfunction. For me and quite a few others the Lexus dealership experience, customer service and coffin-like silence of their cars isn't enough to warrant driving such a blah, ho-hum car.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Good way to end it. But tell me something. Why is MB making the C Class look so much, at least frontally where it is an exact match, like the S-Class? Big tactical mistake in my opinion. For its price the S has to be unique. If I just shelled out $80k plus for an S-500 (or $110k plus for a 600) I don't want to see a $32k or so C in my rearview mirror right after I drive out of the showroom or on the dealers lot for that matter. This is one of the reasons why I walked away from the S. The other is that I felt exactly the same way as Flint 350 wrote in his post. As well the real money for these cars is in the 45+ age bracket. With the bull market dying the younger crowd, who the S is now aimed at, may not have the financial ability to buy the S. The "easy money" days unfortunately are over. This is another reason why Lexus may make a big move at MB soon.

    Personally I think the most beautiful MB is the E-Class. And maybe thats why I bought the LS430. The E is now MB's most Lexus like look. But it's far too small - the same size as a Camry at 189 inches long. If I'm MB I lenghthen that to 197 inches and make it my Lexus fighter. But the E is their bread and butter car so they may not have the gumption for that. I hope they don't change that to look like the S. Betting the ranch on one design would be very foolish.

    But never say never about Toyota. I'm sure in the 1980's people would have said Toyota could never have built a Lexus. In 1990 they were probably saying Lexus would never survive. Could'nt have been more wrong. Ten years from now these two companies will still be duking it out but there is now a big difference than ten years ago. MB does not have much,if any, margin for error.

    With that I'm through with this. Have a great day.
  • jarmstrong2jarmstrong2 Member Posts: 38
    Could one of you Jag owners tell me what you think to many miles on a 98 XJ8 would be? 50K or 60K ?
    I also would like to know : when you buy the extended warranty does this add on to the cars mileage? Or is this like the Fords, when the warranty is just extended to that mileage on the warranty. For instance: If I buy a Jag with 40K mileage and purchase a 100K warranty does that mean I have a 140K warranty? or just an extra 60K
    extention? Thanks for all your help. By the way, I have had a Benz, and 3 Lexi. If you get a good lexus dealer, its very hard to find better service.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    Sometimes I guess. I have always felt that Lexus has had a place in this group. Ten years ago when the original LS400 was introduced Car and Driver put it up against the 560SEL, 750iL, and a Bently Turbo R. The only major failing cited was that it was considerably smaller inside than the BMW and Merc. It fared quite well, and continues to do so. I agree with Merc1 about MB reliability. While the cars have changed, some say cheapened, I still find them extremely impressive. The S55 is agressive looking, fast and offers the best compromise between ride and handling on the planet. I personally found the cockpit of the 750 to be more driver oriented and the V12 for the price of a V8 MB made the sale. While in the same catagory, I really don't see any sporting intentions from the LS430. Now this strikes me as how MB used to be, silently competant, capable when pushed but not eager to do so. With its latest offerings MB has offered wonderful sport and AMG variants. These approach BMW for driving excitement (some say match, some say exceed), I think that is a great image builder for MB. While I wouldn't quite go so far as to say Lexus couldn't get in there, I firmly believe they will never top the heap for sporting nature in any of their lines. The IS300 and GS400 are awesome machines, but I think they also reflect Lexus' conservative side. They have yet to go all the way and offer manual transmissions like BMW. I think Merc1 had it right, Lexus will always be competative and the value leader. I think the premium charged by MB and BMW DOES buy you something tangible. Not heritage or status but a driving feel gleaned from years of experience designing autobahn ready cars. So if you want a dead reliable luxury car loaded with features and racing around is not on your agenda, the Lexus is a GREAT car. Personally I enjoy running my 750 HARD on occasion. It is practically impossible to drive this car slow, it is born to run. Not something said about the LS430. Unless you are considering the S55 I think the S430 and S500 fall in the middle. I was very impressed by the air suspension, it corners flat, maybe flatter than the BMW and has a great ride. I feel dang lucky to be able to legitimately shop these cars. They are all awesome, not a lemon in the bunch, just diffrent flavors.

    Now to be a little less sensible and maybe a little antogonistic (all in fun). I can't stand the look of the Lexus. I know the Japanese have trouble being original with styling (at least original in a timeless sense) but the copy catting must be insulting to its buyers. I respect Toyota very much, but they will never surpass the Germans for top of the line luxo cars. Actually in my opinion they have fallen just short in every market vs. the Germans. They seem to stop shy of greatness and fall back on sterling reliability and service to close the gap. I call that CHICKEN! Leaders take risks, followers do just that, follow.

    P.S. ljflx, don't give up, your comments are needed for balance. There are plenty of folks like you for which the Lexus is perfect.
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    I stopped off to buy the last minute flowers yesterday and parked next to a brand new white/beige LS430 (I drive a S500). After shopping, the owner of the LS and I spent almost an hour discussing the various plusses and minusses of the two vehicles. Ifound it very interesting to hear these things from the perspective of an LS owner.
    LS owner perspective:
    LS 430 plusses:
    1. value
    2.quietness of cabin
    3. luxury ammenities
    4. Mark Levinson Stereo (I agree)
    5.power
    LS 430 negatives:
    1. exterior appearance
    2. no good integrated phone option
    3. grey wood
    4. leather is wearing unevenly
    5. floaty handling
    S500 plusses
    1. prestige
    2. handling
    4. voice activation
    5 techno features (height adj., stiffness adj)
    6.exterior looks
    S500 negatives:
    1.cost
    2.not enough wood
    3.complicated COMAND

    I guess one's choice depends on what is important to the individual, but it was nice to talk with someone without feeling ashamed.
    Sorry for the long post.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    I think the thing that people here take offense to is not your opinions, but the way you express them. When you call something "crap" and disparage the intelligence of those who may disagree with you, you lower the level of this debate to a mud-slinging contest. That does neither you nor your opinions any favors, because people feel they have to contest them out of self-respect, if nothing else. We're here to discuss and disagree, but not to attack each other.

    By the way -- since our host informs me that I cannot quote directly from AutoWorld, I have paraphrased my previous post below:

    The AutoWorld article I told you about lists the 740iL first because of its styling and driving dynamics -- it's simply the most fun.

    However, the Lexus LS430 was only half a point behind. The Lexus' fit and finish, ergonomics and comfort are superb, and it is actually a little faster than the BMW. it is also a heck of a value. It just doesn't have the entertainment and fun of the BMW.

    The Mercedes was rated a strong third, but the high price, ergonomics, fit and finish, and lack of performance made it noncompetitive with the BMW and the Lexus.

    The Jaguar was last in almost every category; however, its heritage and style are still magical, and the price is very attractive.

    My observations: the Lexus narrowly beat out the BMW for acceleration honors (the Bimmer was a 740il with the V8), and far outclassed the Mercedes (6.4/14.5 vs 7.1/15.0). I've also driven all three (the Bimmer, Merc and Lex) back to back, and while I loved the Bimmer, I still don't care for the Mercedes handling dynamics. The article added that the Lexus interior "sets the standard," and that its fit-and-finish is "the benchmark of the industry." The article went on to criticize the Merc for its sloppy transmission ("gear changes don't come quickly enough and aren't as smooth as the BMW and Lexus") and its ergonomics and materials ("In a car costing nearly $80,000, the plastics in the Benz are disappointing.") Oh yeah --the Lexus was the least expensive too, by a long shot -- it was $61, the Jag $65, the BMW $71 and the Merc $78. So I would hardly call this comparison test a victory for Mercedes.

    As a final point, I would like to share my obsservation that when people get angry and abusive, it's usually because they're unsure of their ground. (This last point has been amplified by some of the posts that followed this one!)

    Now back to the games...
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    If, in my post, I seemed to "personally attack" you, I apologize. I did not intend to - only to refute what I saw as blatant errors or misstatements. I re-read my own post and don't really see a personal attack (though possibly my use of the words lunacy and zealots were taken that way - again, sorry). As for "you Americans", I didn't know your background and never impugned it in any way. In fact, I made no assumptions about it. Those kind of comments have no place here except in how they can reflect our differing opinions based on potentially different cultures - not on the validity of our opinions. Lastly, I agree with denniswade, in that it is your presentation that causes concern, not your opinion. I don't mind disagreement, but I do mind yelling and lecturing. My choice was right for me, as I am sure yours is for you - and I completely respect that. Again, my apologies if I inadvertently offended.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Well then we have all calmed down, including myself, and things can continue on a civil level. I agree that my original comments were quite antagonistic, and I am sorry.

    As for my comment regarding "amercians". I took your previous comment about me being ignorant t heart, as I view myself as an informed individual. In turn, my comments were not meant as a racial slurr in any way, just that I have been schooled in the european way of thinking- that the emphasis be on driving dynamics and not on large engines and flashy chrome. So my comments stem from people quoting Motor Trend and Car and Driver, when in my opinion they do favour the big V8, and other non-relevant details. I'm sorry if it came off sounding anything but.

    So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I realize your frustrations in the way my material was presented. I will try to keep my emotions out of my posts from now on, because they always show through in my writing. Sorry!

    A.R.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    On a different note- and I will try to put this as delicately as possible:

    If you believe that Lexus is a major competitor to BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar, is Lexus going to introduce any special versions of their cars to compete with M, AMG, S and R respectively?

    A.R.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    Or does this Europeon car frenzy just totally consume you?

    No one wants to fight with you...OK
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Hey, hey, lay off. I've made my apologies, and I want to go on. I am truly interested to know if Lexus is going to make the next step- introduce a tuning division. I think that is needed to really play with the big boys, because they all have one. Even Acura, who is lower down on the scale has the S-Type version of it's cars. So I would like to know if anyone has heard anything about this?

    A.R.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    I honestly don't know about a tuning division....it has to be there, but I can wait on that LS55.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    It seems to be the next logical step to me. I think a V12 can wait, what they need is some high performance vehicles to once and for all silence people like me! That market is growing more everyday with the growth in the economy and all of the new money. Even though forecasters say that the market is slowing down, I have heard that the high class markets won't be that affected. The rich always seem to stay rich, even in hard times. I would like to see a TL5 ("T" as in toyotas tuning moniker, L to denote the LS, and 5 to denote a 5L V8). Even I would take notice of that!!!~ A.R.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Glad you've gotten it back. I would'nt be surprised if that next move by Lexus includes the enthusiasts car but I wouldn't be surprised if they bypassed it either. They've made a conservative move toward that with the euro suspension. This company is making some of the best business moves I've ever seen in the super luxury class though. I know it irks you that they copied MB in 1990 but if it was out of respect that was only a small part of the reason. The real purpose was to destroy the MB's uniqueness at a fraction of the price. How do you take on the market leader - copy him, differentiate slightly and build in qualities that make his weaknesses standout (note Lexus' realibility) and lastly price it a lot lower so his would be customers come to you. Pure business strategy but to an enthusiasts that makes him a copycat. That strategy was quite successful. In 1990 the LS400 sold for about 40% the price of an S-500 but today a comparably equipped LS430 sells for 80% of the S-500. Lexus price went up while MB's price dropped. All evidence of a well executed strategy.

    What comes next - copy the engine sizes but differentiate elsewhere. They've got the customer base to be bold now and as much as they are conservative in styling they are quite bold in business. Do you have any idea how much was at stake in their investment to build the Lexus brand? Do you realize how little it would mean to their bottom line to hire a team of Italian designers for the next model. They'd make $7.52bln instead of $7.53bln. - big deal. Don't underestimate this company or how easy it is to build in a bold new style for one model. That's where I'd bet they will go.

    I'm afraid that what Lexus accomplished in 1990 signalled the end of the stand-alone super luxury car brand. Once it started to pass its technology to the everyday Toyotas after a 2-3 year exclusive for Lexus it meant it had a huge edge over MB,BMW and Jag. It had a car base to leverage that technology - they didn't. Thats why Jag went to Ford and MB got Chrysler though that latter deal should have been the other way around. Of course Toyota has Lexus and Nissan has Infiniti. The two oddballs left are GM and BMW. BMW is private so they don't have to put up with public market pressures but they won't survive long-term if they don't move at some point. GM's got to have a luxury brand so that looks like a marriage to me. It's got to happen. BMW's cars may be impressive but it's financials are not. Company has shown no revenue growth in past three years and its profit margins are weakening. Look at its margins compared to Toyota.

    By the way Nissan is now run by a German and that new Q coming in April has a 340 engine and is aimed right at BMW at a much lower price. It may have taken a German now based in Japan to get them finally going and that guy is going to cause a lot of Germans in Germany to lose a lot of sleep. That new Z looks pretty awesome to.

    Bottom line in all this is simple. The playing field has been levelled and the landscape has been permantly changed all because of the copying of a great car by a great company. End of story.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    none of that adresses the simple fact that the Japanese have yet to be able to copy the "driving feel" provided by the Germans, albiet for a premium. I think that is my beef with Lexus, I think this is what some of us (arcroates, merc1, myself) are trying to impress upon the Lexus fans. Now it appears that this is simply not important to some buyers. If that is the case the Lexus is the perfect car for such buyers. Toyota/Lexus is undeniably an impressive automotive presence with very deep pockets. Until they figure out how to put some real style in their designs and build some great driving dynamics into their cars, those of us who buy cars primarily for those reasons will continue to shop BMW and Mercedes-Benz.
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    The BMWs and Mercedes have a certain "feel" that is recognizable even if you were blindfolded. If blindfolded in a Lexus, one would not be able to differentiate between the Lexus, a Cadillac DeVille or a Lincoln Town Car (not that there's anything wrong with that). That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just depends what you are looking for (but I still can't get over the ugly exterior of the LS430).
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    This is what I am trying to say- lexus still isn't a drivers car. They have done a great job of producing many things, but driving excitement isn't one of them. I guess my point wasn't getting across because I was too blatant.

    Anyway- I do agree that nowadays, the luxury marques have to have some big car company muscle behind them to stay alive. Jaguar was floundering when Ford snapped them up. Mercedes-Benz was okay, because they bought Chrysler. BMW is going to have to do it sooner or later, and I hope it is GM, but I doubt it, and this is why:

    You may not want to hear this, but when the STS moves to the sigma RWD platform in a couple of years, it will be competition for the cars we talk about here. It has most everything it needs to play in this league, except (a)RWD and (b) a quality problem.

    It's getting RWD, so all GM has to do is step up it's quality control. The interiors are designed beautifully, it's just that they sometimes use low-rent materials, and they have the tendency to fall apart.

    If they can get those two things right, I think they will be a major player. Can anyone deny that the Northstar isn't a gem? If they increase displacement, they could easily get 350hp, and be right in with these guys. Exterior styling is nice, better than the LS I think, some pretty high-tech gadgets, advanced chassis. I think it will become a major player in this market.~ A.R.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    The LS would be easy to pick out from these two...it would be more quiet in every way imaginable.
  • scongroscongro Member Posts: 80
    That is illogical-why have the Flagship (Deville) in the middle of the pricing spectrum, under the (STS). The Flagship is not always the most expensive car, but usually is the top of the line sedan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    bwh - Maybe they are simply not interested in you. I'm sure market research shows those (as in you) buyers to be in the minority otherwise given their business moves they would have come to the party a long time ago.

    Arcoates - your dream cadillac has a snowballs chance in hell of happening. I think GM gets BMW but then they have lots of licensing agreements with Toyota. How about a GM/Toyota merger. Nah - neither government would allow it.

    Where's Merc1 - I miss him.
  • axel4axel4 Member Posts: 6
    I am close to ordering a 530. Then decided to look at used 740i's or 740iL.The idea was, could a used 740 be a better decision than a new 5 series. Could I save a few dollars ?,but have the ride, control,and over all car be better? One is probably into the 1998 versions of the 740 before reaching cost parity with a new 5 series. Can any one comment basically on the differences and preferences between a used 740 and the new 530?
  • ejerodejerod Member Posts: 86
    I've been away for awhile and wow I missed all the fireworks. As I've said in previous posts I own both a Lexus and a Mercedes . They are of two different classes. The Lex is a 99 GS 300, the Benz a 2001 S 500 /AMG sports package. I first bought the Lexus because of it's unique styling, value and Lexus reputation for reliability. Here's the report:
    Two weeks after I bought the GS-service engine light comes on. It seems Lexus had a problem with the supplier of the chip that regulated this. The chips were defective. Result recall on the chips. Some people had the problem some didn't. It affected GS and LS models according to the dealer. It took 3 weeks for the chip to get in.

    One month after owning the GS, the glove box was rattling had to be replaced.

    About the same time the sunshade rattled, had to be tightened.

    2 months ago, GS radio had to be replaced due to malfunctions.

    Now the Benz. COMAND system had to be replaced due to software issues.

    My point is this. No matter what the manufacturer's marketing departments trumpet and what J. D. Powers and all the other pundits proclaim, the fact is these cars are wonderful machines but they are fallible no matter who manufactures them. That being said, do I regret my buying decisions ? Not at all. Like I said I own both and seriously considered buying the LS430 because I am so pleased with the GS300. But in the world of ultra luxury MB wins the big luxo car battle. Did I pay more ? of course.. do I regret it ? Absolutely not. Now please don't go quoting the so called Auto mags. For every article one can produce of the Lexus or BMW or Jag being the better car there are at lease 2 others that state the opposite. It's all subjective . Bottom line ? Buy what you choose for whatever reason. It's funny that no one says to the Bently owner " for 300k you could have had 4.5 LS430's or 3 S600's " Do you really think the Bently owner cares ? And yes I drove the Bently too and considered a 2000 Bently Arnage that was slightly less than 200k. So it is with the MB owners. Yes we could have saved 15-30k, but we really, really,don't care.... at least I don't.. so enjoy what you drive and let's all join hands and sing Cumbaya...lol
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    I think I am right on this one. The DTS will stay FWD, because if they move it to RWD, it is too much competition for each other. The STS and DTS are extremely close in price, and the features are pretty much the same. GM doesn't have a car to play in that market, and I don't think they are willing to spend a ton of money to get BMW. They would much rather just improve and existing model. The DTS is the flagship true- but their client base for that one is old men. Yes, the average age is lowering, but it is still a retirement complex car. The STS has always been touted as a drivers car, and so far it hasn't. When they move it to RWD, things will change.~ A.R.
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