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Comments
And of course get the warranty. It's not so much the engine that will go, but different parts around it. Might as well pay the money now, in case you get a lemon.
Get a VDP for sure- the extra wheelbase is well worth it. And those aeroplane style picnic tables are great! If you get a standard wheelbase, the people in the back will be uncomfortable- I know from personal experience. The only reason to get the reg. wheelbase would be to opt for an XJR, and you're not looking for that.
So, get a higher mileage one, so you get a better deal. Good luck.
A.R.
I would've stuckthe Mercedes 2nd, the jag 3rd and the Lexus last. I don't know why everyone likes the new LS that much- it doesn't break any new ground. Maybe for Lexus themselves, but not for the industry.
A.R.
There you have it- someone who has tested all 3 cars and came away buying the BMW, with second choice the Mercedes and in a distant third the Lexus. As it should be.
A.R.
This is business - not bragging rights. It's very obvious that cars improve over time but MB had to do more than it would have if Lexus wasn't there plus it had to drop prices. It will have to answer the raised bar that the LS430 put up pretty soon or it will lose its leadership. As for Lexus it's pretty obvious what its next chess move will be. An LS500 with better handling - probably right at the level of MB - and of course a better ride still and probably even quieter if that's possible. They'll be a V-12 LS600 option as well of course. And given MB's problematic acquisition of Chrysler, turmoil at the top of the company, and success of the LS430 that move will now happen at an earlier time than was planned a year ago. And you know what its better for both you and I because the competitive level keeps increasing. As I said its business.
Therefore, it forced, like you said, the originals to drop their prices to be competitive. So in turn, it made the super luxury car more affordable for you and I.
But I dispute that MB would've had to cut prices sooner or later even if the LS didn't come along. Look at Bentley and Rolls-Royce- they haven't had to cut prices at all, and they are still successful. Granted, they only cater to a very small percent of the population, but those few could go to cars like BMW and Mercedes, but they still go to Bentley and Rolls.
People credit Lexus for being a revolutionary company, when all along the originals were making huge advances in the auto world which would eventually be passed down to the lesser models.
Do you think that if the Japanese cars had never come along, that we would be living in the dark ages with no remote keyless entry and navigation systems? No, we would be in the same place. It was the MB S500 that pioneered the active cruise control, and Cadillac Deville the night vision. Some may see it as stupid, but it will be adopted by other manufacturers.
Lexus does not deserve a medal for coming to the market. It deserves no credit except as a poor mans S-class.
A.R.
Guess what...I just bought an LS430 today because it makes you European heritage freaks look silly and damn stupid.
Isn't this fun...bring it on....
M
M
I would pick an Audi, BMW, MB over a Lexus anyday for their superior driving dynamics.
Even if I were driven by someone sitting at the back, I rather pick a long wheel base limo over a Lexus, the latter's suspension is so soft it makes me car sick. With a limo, at least I get more room.
Don't believe everything you hear - Lexus are not that reliable, their leather seats wear off prematurely for example.
The LS' drive is so isloated it's dangerous giving the driver zero feedback. Sure the car is quiet but that's about the only virtue really.
I like the GS430's drive but it's lack of room is pathetic, I think a 3 series has more room than the GS.
I bought the Mercedes because I LIKE it better. It's impossible to exactly define if it's the ride, handling, styling, engineering features,,etc. that makes a difference. It's really a combination of many factors (although riding in an ugly luxury car might be embarassing).
Only kidding.
As for some of the snobs on this site who say that Lexus is lagging that's pure frustration and envy since they know Lexus makes a fine product but it doesn't come from Germany.
Don't ever second guess what Toyota will or won't do. They have Bill Gates deep pockets and talented engineers and can easily elevate the LS model to an even more lofty status than the current one. I foresee an LS500 model in the next few years just give it time. Perfection doesn't come over night. Performance additions as in 400+ hp to the GS series are in the works as we speak so don't think Lexus is sitting idle and watching its competitors cruise by.
I get a kick out of listening to these Euro lovers defend their cars, but when I ask why Mercedes has all these realibility and quality problems lately they can't answer me or they say "yeah but it has heritage and a soul". When Joe Blow's Benz is in the shop for the 15th time in a year I'm pretty sure he's thinking yeah but it's ok it's got a soul. Bringing up Bill Gates, yes he loves his LS 400 and SC400 coupe has stated they are among his favorite cars. Not bad advertising I"ll say.
WBWYNN- You must own cars for their curb appeal. If you are a person who actually cares about driving dynamics, you would have never purchased an LS430 because it simply cannot compete with the euros. You say that euro heritage is silly- the only reason the euros come out on top is because of their heritage- they have worked for years on perfecting their cars. Lexus came along, took the best of what MB had, and then tried to copy it. Congrats on buying your Lexus, but you could've got the same performance in a DTS for less money!
PRATTSTER- I think you must be mistaken, because Mercedes have the reputation of being rock solid, which will last for years. I don't know a single person who owns an MB who has had to take their car in for signifigant service. And no, they are not C-Class owners, but E55 and S-Class owners. So don't critisize MB for being engineered poorly, when Lexus is just copying them. They must be doing something right!
I have not heard any hard evidence that Lexus is at or above MB and BMW's level. Only a lot of mud slinging towards me, and my correct points.
A.R.
P.S. I look forward to the attacks I get this time!
Either way, your post has to go - you can't quote copyrighted sources directly but you can link to them.
Thanks.
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
Saying Lexus simply can't compete with the Euros is futher evidence of very limited personal opinion being stated as fact. The vast majority of the automotive press disagree. Whether one or the other is slightly better, etc. is open to debate, but to say it "simply can't compete" borders on lunacy. Good grief, the very article quoted before this post clearly says, not only can the Lexus compete, but in their INFORMED and EXPERIENCED opinion, it is often equal or BETTER.
You go on to say a DTS is the same for less money and therefore a better choice!!! This is downright foolishness - yet you refute your own logic by refusing to admit that the Lexus (who all agree is AT LEAST a real competitor of the Benz) is less expensive than the Benz with the same features,etc - making it a better value!
As for MB's reputation for "rock solid" and never in for signif. service!!! Do you actually read what people (actual owners-not phony zealots) on this and the S Class board write about their various S Class experiences? Are they just phony liars trying to destroy the reputation of the S??
Get real. You are entitled to your opinion, whether it is fact or fantasy based. But at least try to stick reasonably close to facts when you level criticism. The S Class is a very good car. The Lexus is a very good car. The BMW is a very good car. We all want to satisfy our personal needs in our choices. In choosing my LS430, I partly decided on reliability, quiet, interior and value. I would have spent the extra money on the S if it bought me something more - in my opinion, it didn't. I would have gotten less of what I wanted and paid $20K for the privilege.
On the fact that the automotive world says that the Lexus is at or beyond the rest, that is pure crap. Edmunds own review said that for a Lexus, it is exremely sporty, but it still cannot compare with the Mercedes and BMW for driving excitement. And that is my focus- the Lexus is not a drivers car like the others. I ask you to find me a piece of writing by someone who has half a brain that says the Lexus will be more fun to drive than a BMW. Ha!
I would rather spend the extra $10,000 to get some excitement out of my vehicle. In my eyes, it is not a better value because it puts the driver in complete isolation from the world. Yes, it is extremely quiet, like a vault, but I would like to hear what BMW has done with my V12 under hard acceleration.
I do not dispute that the Lexus has all the bells and whistles that the rest have- hell that's what the Japanese are known for. I am simply stating that in the styling and engineering, they have copied the rest yet again, mostly Mercedes.
As for your comment about being informed- I am a true car enthusiast who will read respectable publications such as R&T, Automobile, CAR and a battery of others. You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's.
Whatever choice someone wants to make, is their own business. This message board is for discussion, and that is purely what I am doing. I want to seek the opinions of others, and maybe dispute them. I am not mounting personal attacks on anyone, as you are FLINT350.
Good luck with your LS430, maybe someday it will be called the "greatest car in it's class in 2001", but I doubt that!!!
A.R.
A.R.
Merc1 - Of course Daimler took over Chrysler. But in acquisitions the actual owner is set up for legal and tax purposes. Do you think they are going to look for synergies and operationally consolidate Chrysler anywhere but in the auto group? Heavy equipment division - maybe? - comeon now. In my company some of the CEO's would fall off their chairs if they knew who legally owned their companies or divisions.
As for the next Lexus LS modification you can bet your house on a LS500. In an article somewhere - not Edmunds - it mentioned that Lexus was toying with a V-12 for this model year but dropped it at the eleventh hour - so that's inevitabe too and it may come sooner than anyone thinks. They'll never make the equivalent of an S-55 or an AMG but not for the reasons you'd like to think. No one makes meaningful money on limited production/special edition/custom products in any business. They are usually loss leaders and CFO's cut them out the moment business goes south.
One last thing - Toyota's market cap is $128BLN vs. $51bln for Daimler. It also has $12bln. more cash and $20bln less debt. I wouldn't doubt its wherewithall and I'm sure MB is smarter than you about them. They are the 800lb gorilla here.
I am very passionate about cars, and enjoy a heated discussion. I am pro-euro- no doubt about it. But I have not "lost it". I haven't called anyone stupid for buying something Japanese, or that they are complete hunks of crap. I have said everything but!
And you are quite mistaken about being "in way over my head". There is a collection of people, includig merc1 by the sounds of it that agree that the german cars are best in class. I think that most of the professional automotive community would agree- that is what I have based my opinions on- by reading about the different choices and making the tough decision of what is best!
I am sorry if I have offended anyone. It is not my intention. In my effort to create heated discussion, it may have come out that I want to condemn those who favour the japanese cars. I hope to converse about these issues in the future with all of you- you are knowledgable and good to talk, and sometimes fight with.
A.R.
Relax and enjoy valentine's day. Life is too short to argue. Just get your point across and move on. Goodnight.
It's not like the S-Class is junk or even remotely close to it. Believe it or not but their are S-Class owners that haven't had any problems, like there are probably some LS430 owners that didn't get a flawless car either. I believe Automobile did a long-term test of the S500 and their car didn't have a single malfunction. For me and quite a few others the Lexus dealership experience, customer service and coffin-like silence of their cars isn't enough to warrant driving such a blah, ho-hum car.
M
Personally I think the most beautiful MB is the E-Class. And maybe thats why I bought the LS430. The E is now MB's most Lexus like look. But it's far too small - the same size as a Camry at 189 inches long. If I'm MB I lenghthen that to 197 inches and make it my Lexus fighter. But the E is their bread and butter car so they may not have the gumption for that. I hope they don't change that to look like the S. Betting the ranch on one design would be very foolish.
But never say never about Toyota. I'm sure in the 1980's people would have said Toyota could never have built a Lexus. In 1990 they were probably saying Lexus would never survive. Could'nt have been more wrong. Ten years from now these two companies will still be duking it out but there is now a big difference than ten years ago. MB does not have much,if any, margin for error.
With that I'm through with this. Have a great day.
I also would like to know : when you buy the extended warranty does this add on to the cars mileage? Or is this like the Fords, when the warranty is just extended to that mileage on the warranty. For instance: If I buy a Jag with 40K mileage and purchase a 100K warranty does that mean I have a 140K warranty? or just an extra 60K
extention? Thanks for all your help. By the way, I have had a Benz, and 3 Lexi. If you get a good lexus dealer, its very hard to find better service.
Now to be a little less sensible and maybe a little antogonistic (all in fun). I can't stand the look of the Lexus. I know the Japanese have trouble being original with styling (at least original in a timeless sense) but the copy catting must be insulting to its buyers. I respect Toyota very much, but they will never surpass the Germans for top of the line luxo cars. Actually in my opinion they have fallen just short in every market vs. the Germans. They seem to stop shy of greatness and fall back on sterling reliability and service to close the gap. I call that CHICKEN! Leaders take risks, followers do just that, follow.
P.S. ljflx, don't give up, your comments are needed for balance. There are plenty of folks like you for which the Lexus is perfect.
LS owner perspective:
LS 430 plusses:
1. value
2.quietness of cabin
3. luxury ammenities
4. Mark Levinson Stereo (I agree)
5.power
LS 430 negatives:
1. exterior appearance
2. no good integrated phone option
3. grey wood
4. leather is wearing unevenly
5. floaty handling
S500 plusses
1. prestige
2. handling
4. voice activation
5 techno features (height adj., stiffness adj)
6.exterior looks
S500 negatives:
1.cost
2.not enough wood
3.complicated COMAND
I guess one's choice depends on what is important to the individual, but it was nice to talk with someone without feeling ashamed.
Sorry for the long post.
By the way -- since our host informs me that I cannot quote directly from AutoWorld, I have paraphrased my previous post below:
The AutoWorld article I told you about lists the 740iL first because of its styling and driving dynamics -- it's simply the most fun.
However, the Lexus LS430 was only half a point behind. The Lexus' fit and finish, ergonomics and comfort are superb, and it is actually a little faster than the BMW. it is also a heck of a value. It just doesn't have the entertainment and fun of the BMW.
The Mercedes was rated a strong third, but the high price, ergonomics, fit and finish, and lack of performance made it noncompetitive with the BMW and the Lexus.
The Jaguar was last in almost every category; however, its heritage and style are still magical, and the price is very attractive.
My observations: the Lexus narrowly beat out the BMW for acceleration honors (the Bimmer was a 740il with the V8), and far outclassed the Mercedes (6.4/14.5 vs 7.1/15.0). I've also driven all three (the Bimmer, Merc and Lex) back to back, and while I loved the Bimmer, I still don't care for the Mercedes handling dynamics. The article added that the Lexus interior "sets the standard," and that its fit-and-finish is "the benchmark of the industry." The article went on to criticize the Merc for its sloppy transmission ("gear changes don't come quickly enough and aren't as smooth as the BMW and Lexus") and its ergonomics and materials ("In a car costing nearly $80,000, the plastics in the Benz are disappointing.") Oh yeah --the Lexus was the least expensive too, by a long shot -- it was $61, the Jag $65, the BMW $71 and the Merc $78. So I would hardly call this comparison test a victory for Mercedes.
As a final point, I would like to share my obsservation that when people get angry and abusive, it's usually because they're unsure of their ground. (This last point has been amplified by some of the posts that followed this one!)
Now back to the games...
As for my comment regarding "amercians". I took your previous comment about me being ignorant t heart, as I view myself as an informed individual. In turn, my comments were not meant as a racial slurr in any way, just that I have been schooled in the european way of thinking- that the emphasis be on driving dynamics and not on large engines and flashy chrome. So my comments stem from people quoting Motor Trend and Car and Driver, when in my opinion they do favour the big V8, and other non-relevant details. I'm sorry if it came off sounding anything but.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I realize your frustrations in the way my material was presented. I will try to keep my emotions out of my posts from now on, because they always show through in my writing. Sorry!
A.R.
If you believe that Lexus is a major competitor to BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar, is Lexus going to introduce any special versions of their cars to compete with M, AMG, S and R respectively?
A.R.
No one wants to fight with you...OK
A.R.
What comes next - copy the engine sizes but differentiate elsewhere. They've got the customer base to be bold now and as much as they are conservative in styling they are quite bold in business. Do you have any idea how much was at stake in their investment to build the Lexus brand? Do you realize how little it would mean to their bottom line to hire a team of Italian designers for the next model. They'd make $7.52bln instead of $7.53bln. - big deal. Don't underestimate this company or how easy it is to build in a bold new style for one model. That's where I'd bet they will go.
I'm afraid that what Lexus accomplished in 1990 signalled the end of the stand-alone super luxury car brand. Once it started to pass its technology to the everyday Toyotas after a 2-3 year exclusive for Lexus it meant it had a huge edge over MB,BMW and Jag. It had a car base to leverage that technology - they didn't. Thats why Jag went to Ford and MB got Chrysler though that latter deal should have been the other way around. Of course Toyota has Lexus and Nissan has Infiniti. The two oddballs left are GM and BMW. BMW is private so they don't have to put up with public market pressures but they won't survive long-term if they don't move at some point. GM's got to have a luxury brand so that looks like a marriage to me. It's got to happen. BMW's cars may be impressive but it's financials are not. Company has shown no revenue growth in past three years and its profit margins are weakening. Look at its margins compared to Toyota.
By the way Nissan is now run by a German and that new Q coming in April has a 340 engine and is aimed right at BMW at a much lower price. It may have taken a German now based in Japan to get them finally going and that guy is going to cause a lot of Germans in Germany to lose a lot of sleep. That new Z looks pretty awesome to.
Bottom line in all this is simple. The playing field has been levelled and the landscape has been permantly changed all because of the copying of a great car by a great company. End of story.
Anyway- I do agree that nowadays, the luxury marques have to have some big car company muscle behind them to stay alive. Jaguar was floundering when Ford snapped them up. Mercedes-Benz was okay, because they bought Chrysler. BMW is going to have to do it sooner or later, and I hope it is GM, but I doubt it, and this is why:
You may not want to hear this, but when the STS moves to the sigma RWD platform in a couple of years, it will be competition for the cars we talk about here. It has most everything it needs to play in this league, except (a)RWD and (b) a quality problem.
It's getting RWD, so all GM has to do is step up it's quality control. The interiors are designed beautifully, it's just that they sometimes use low-rent materials, and they have the tendency to fall apart.
If they can get those two things right, I think they will be a major player. Can anyone deny that the Northstar isn't a gem? If they increase displacement, they could easily get 350hp, and be right in with these guys. Exterior styling is nice, better than the LS I think, some pretty high-tech gadgets, advanced chassis. I think it will become a major player in this market.~ A.R.
Arcoates - your dream cadillac has a snowballs chance in hell of happening. I think GM gets BMW but then they have lots of licensing agreements with Toyota. How about a GM/Toyota merger. Nah - neither government would allow it.
Where's Merc1 - I miss him.
Two weeks after I bought the GS-service engine light comes on. It seems Lexus had a problem with the supplier of the chip that regulated this. The chips were defective. Result recall on the chips. Some people had the problem some didn't. It affected GS and LS models according to the dealer. It took 3 weeks for the chip to get in.
One month after owning the GS, the glove box was rattling had to be replaced.
About the same time the sunshade rattled, had to be tightened.
2 months ago, GS radio had to be replaced due to malfunctions.
Now the Benz. COMAND system had to be replaced due to software issues.
My point is this. No matter what the manufacturer's marketing departments trumpet and what J. D. Powers and all the other pundits proclaim, the fact is these cars are wonderful machines but they are fallible no matter who manufactures them. That being said, do I regret my buying decisions ? Not at all. Like I said I own both and seriously considered buying the LS430 because I am so pleased with the GS300. But in the world of ultra luxury MB wins the big luxo car battle. Did I pay more ? of course.. do I regret it ? Absolutely not. Now please don't go quoting the so called Auto mags. For every article one can produce of the Lexus or BMW or Jag being the better car there are at lease 2 others that state the opposite. It's all subjective . Bottom line ? Buy what you choose for whatever reason. It's funny that no one says to the Bently owner " for 300k you could have had 4.5 LS430's or 3 S600's " Do you really think the Bently owner cares ? And yes I drove the Bently too and considered a 2000 Bently Arnage that was slightly less than 200k. So it is with the MB owners. Yes we could have saved 15-30k, but we really, really,don't care.... at least I don't.. so enjoy what you drive and let's all join hands and sing Cumbaya...lol