High End Luxury Cars

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

I orginally bought the Allante because I didn't fit in the SL of that time. It ended up being a lucky break for me, The Allante was far more comfortable..Had enough trunk space for two sets of clubs with pull carts, had plenty of power, handled well, and was far more beautiful. In addition the sound system was much better, it actually played CD and tapes, The German car didn't play CDs. There was even a pass through the trunk so you could carry your ski's. As I recall you could not even carry you golf clubs in the trunk of the SL with the top down.

I could follow your advice on how to write and re-word this comment to make you happy....but...Nooooooooooo..I don't think so.

michael_mattox · July 2004

PS:

Merc. I neglected to mention that the Allante also came with a 7 year bumper to bumper warrenty..It was probably as flawed as the Mercedes of that period but at least you could own it for awhile withou it costing you an arm and a leg....It was a second car for most who owned it so the inconvience of having to put it in the shop (yes I always got a Cady for a loaner, It was part of the warrenty) was a pain but a bearable one.

sapparo · July 2004

The current S class shames no one. The last S class was one of the worst lookin overweight, blocky cars of that time. You just can't accept it (a little envy) that your lousy german brand is getting clobbered by the premier Japanese car maker who's new models will again redefine the segement as the original did 15 years ago. Your matter of fact opinion from someone who supposedly drives a bottom tier Japanese brand has zero, zilch, credibility on this board. Lexus is capitalizing the most with former Benz owners who ditched them in favor of a tad less stylish cars but oh so much higher in quality and ownership experience.

Audi's aint killin no one that's a serious laugher! Who the hell is buyin Audi's their in virtually last place in market share and reliability, have been for years. The interior design of Audi's are neato and nice but the rest of car is subpar and going with the new MACK truck grill design will no doubt make them a sales success. Not! A big prediction the new RL will surprise everyone in that segment.

kdshapiro · July 2004

I'm not sure about that. Friends have an LS430 can't wait to give the boat back. Their next car...an x500. Take on LS it's a great car to be a passenger in. But some people want to drive cars, some don't even care about the disparity in the JD, CR, WSJ surveys with defects per 100.

designman · July 2004

"Anyway...guess what configuration Porsche sells the most of when it comes to 911s? The 911 C4S in tiptronic from!"

Impossible. You have it confused with something else. No way C4S even comes close to C2 sales, ditto for manual vs Tip.

ljflx · July 2004

And they think an S500 is a drivers car?? Are they kidding. Its a premium lux sedan with a heavy leaning to lux over sport. MB leaned even further to lux in the refresh. If they want sport they need to go to the Maserati based on what I have read or drop $100k on an S55.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

LEt's not go overboard with that one.....

ljflx · July 2004

Did I ever link you and audibob? If so I apologize and it certainly wasn't intended. But it was clear to me that you were rather repulsive of his posts early that day. I actually laughed when I thought of your reaction to all the posts by the latter part of that day.

merc1 · July 2004

"I'll bet most critics of an LS430 have never sat behind the wheel of one. I'll also bet that many LS430 buyers have owned MB E or S class cars before. Do I have statistics - no. Just my feeling because it's the situation with the people I know and I'd bet its representative of a large part of the buying group."

You might be right on that because most German car folk have read too much about the car being an isolation chamber and more importantly just looking at the thing is most off-putting so I doubt many would bother. However on this board, most of the negative noise about Mercedes comes not from former MB owners but survey and graph chasers and folk who couldn't "fit" into a Mercedes. Reading some of their posts its obvious they don't have a clue as to what a Mercedes was or is about today.

The same could also be said about the Lexus owners who talk down about Audi and BMWs, most of them wouldn't and haven't gone near one to even know what they're talking about. Especially the Audi detractors.

I think the friction comes in when someone on either side tries to say what defines a luxury car, while knocking a car they've never even driven, and know they don't want the other car anyway...for whatever reasons.

Yes I have driven the LS430, but it was a 2002 model. I've driven a used 2001 model also, so I haven't driven the 2004 model. The Carconnection review still hints that it is still too isolated from the road, and others have said that very same thing about the 2004 models so I have my doubts about this "far tighter" claim you're making. The same press that praises the LS' other attributes says the same thing about the 2004 model as they do the 2001 model, it doesn't have the dynamic or feel/roadholding of the German cars. The 2001-2003 models drove like a Buick to me especially when mildly pushing it. Way too much body roll. What you and other Lexi never seem to get is that nobody is saying the S500 is a "drivers car" in the purest sense, only that it is more of a drivers car than a LS430. It feels more connected to the road than the LS430. I've seen a many of post from LS owner talking about how they felt nothing when driving, meaning it was smooth, that isn't what most German car buyers look for, at least the ones that buy for technical not status. The only true "drivers car" in this segment is a 745i (short wheelbase) with the sport package or maybe the A8L, haven't driven it yet.

Yeah audibob was being ridiculous to say the least, and I'm crazy about Audi so imagine me reading stuff about Audi that even I couldn't sell here.

michael_mattox,

What I said to Lenn above applies to your post about the Allante. You never even drove the SL and because you didn't fit into it very well it was a lesser car. Wow very astute analysis. The Allante was junk plain and simple. Nobody bought them and even the normally big-mouthed Cadillac would like to forget about the car. You're a big fan of sales when it comes to Lexus but when it comes to Cadillac you don't mention sales? The car was a flop and everyone knows it. The 1990 SL only sealed the coffin the fwd, underpowered Allante already put itself in from the start. It was a second car for most so who cared about how well it was made or how reliable it was? Are you serious? That is a complete stack of bs. Fact: in the early 90's Mercedes lead your precious surveys, where was Cadillac. I see where you're coming from now. Surveys and sales to tout Lexus, but not for Cadillac. I've never seen a non-GM owner/fan come up with so many excuses for one of their worst products in history. What you say about the top alone is just far too surreal to be coming from a Lexus owner. Would you buy a SC430 if it had a manual cloth top and that only half-arsed worked? Heck no. How much more hypocritical can you be about the Allante.

designman,

I'll have to find the article. I think they stated the #1 selling configuration for the 911 was the C2 with an auto, not the C4S. The article went on to say that Porsche was semi-worried about this.

M

michael_mattox · July 2004

MERC MERC MERC:

I did drive a couple of SLs I think one was an older model 450 and I don't recall the other a 380 or something like that...I just don't remember...I didn't fit well in either and as I said the car was uncomfortable and harsh and just not nearly as nice inside or out as the Allante...P.S. you could just plug a chip out of the Deville into the Allante (cost $200 bucks) and jump the HP from 200 to 250...I don't recall the HP in the 93 Allante but it was around 300 with the Northstar system and outperformed every SL around in those days.

The cockpit was exactly the same size as the front of the Deville..Very comfortable...The car always turned heads...I remember feeling sorry for the poor guys that were driving SLs

It took me under 30 Sec. to raise and lower the top and with the top down I still had full use of my trunk (nice design) Power opened and closed it and pulled everything down and inplace all I had to do manually was pull it back and down or up to open and close it....I would think a real car man like yourself could handle something as simple as that. It was a very nice touring car with plenty of luggage space (and you could still fit in your Golf Clubs, I did it many times.) You couldn't do that in the SL...

You will need to print your source (cut and paste) for the speculative information you have cited...the survays were positive as I recall...It is difficult to find them now so if you would care to cut and paste something in to prove your point that would be a good thing...

They sold 20,000 Allante's between 1987 and 1993 the production run for the car...The last year had the highest sales with about 6700 sold as I recall.

My convertable days are over now...I loved my Allante kept it for 10 or 11 years. I would only compare to what was available when I bought my car late in 92...I know it will still turn heads, it was a beautiful Italian design with an enduring quality.

pablo_l · July 2004

So much religion. It's an utterly futile exercise to try to argue about the notion of "best" in cars. "Drive what you love" is a great motto, and love is -in its most rewarding and best moments- utterly irrational. Some think best is the most bang for the buck, some think it's the most heritage, some think it's the car that for whatever reason just clicks with them.

From my own perspective, I must say that I think the luxury sedan scene has become sadly devoid of fundamentally different value propositions. All brands have somewhat compromised identity to appeal to that lowest common denominator that has become that sadly predictable "magic quadrant" for anyone selling anything these days. No one has the b*lls to have an edgier, riskier proposition these days.

As much as I agree that Lexus has phenomenal reliability and build quality, I've always felt they're a somewhat robotic brand in search of some individuality. Execution = phenomenal, guttural passion appeal = mediocre. Those who think cars are appliances (and that is not a negative term - high end appliances are not a fallacy, just look up Gaggenau) will look no further. I've always looked at Lexus when shopping for a car, but it never really made the list of finalists. Yet. All it takes is one truly awfully unreliable car experience to make someone go "oh, screw this" and go for a proven quantity when it comes to reliability. I know that.

Audi has the same effect on me. And it's never made the close contender list, either.

Jaguar - ah, they used to. Their product portfolio has been sanitized. The S class is a typical committee product, and yet sadly along with the XK coupe it's become their most distinct offering. The X class is a typical exercise in blatant brand equity exploitation, the XJ has sold its soul to the demons of practicality. The remnants of British eccentricity have been lobotomized out of Jaguar. Oddly enough, I find that a big loss.

Mercedes and BMW have always been de rigeur choices among the upwardly mobile, too predictable, so little appeal to me, even though I have always loved the 3 series, which I think is about the perfect car: it costs as much as I am always comfortable paying cash for a car (anything over $50k has caused me bouts with buyer's remorse), and it drives penomenally. Alas, everybody and their dog has one.

The other day, talking about cars with a British business acquanitane I always have great laughs with, he mentioned the Bristol brand. Upon checking it out, I am fascinated by the genuine eccentricity. If it cost $70k, that would be my car. Alas, eccentricity has been confined to the realm north of $100k, and below that car manufacturers are unwilling to take risks... a shame, really.

merc1 · July 2004

Like I said you didn't even drive the R129 1990 SL that you've tried to state was inferior to the Allante! You never even drove the the 1990+ 500SL! The 380 and 450SL models were from another era and were severly dated by the time the 560SL came out in 1986 to see the platform out.

"I don't recall the HP in the 93 Allante but it was around 300 with the Northstar system and outperformed every SL around in those days. "

Do you seriously believe such things that you post? I have never read anything so incorrect and so out of touch with reality. You haven't a clue or you choose to ignore the facts because this even subjective. The 322hp 500SL outperformed the 1993 Northstar Allante. Have you not read anything? I won't mention the 389hp 600SL that would easily smoke the Allante. Read what Car and Driver said about the 500SL in that comparo in which the Allante beat a mere I6 powered 300SL. The 500SL would smoke the Allante and the V12 600SL would stomp a mutthole in the Allante.

I couldn't care less about any golf clubs while driving a underpowered fwd SL wannabe. The Allante had a powertrain of junk (a 200hp V8!) until 1993 and by then it was too late, nobody cared. Plugging a chip in a car is for the fast and furious set, not a 60K luxury convertible buyer. AMG would modify the R129 SL to do 200 mph if you wanted so whats the point.

Like I said before everything you say about the Allante's top is a grand excuse for a pitifully designed top on a 60K car. A 20K Pontiac Sunbird of the day had a power top!!!

"You will need to print your source (cut and paste) for the speculative information you have cited...the survays were positive as I recall...It is difficult to find them now so if you would care to cut and paste something in to prove your point that would be a good thing.."

So you do understand the concept of proof. Good. I have a list of your bogus claims you have yet to prove in over a year of stating them! Shall we? I'm still waiting to find out if the Allante had a "shoulder harness".

On Cadillac and Mercedes back in the day say like 1990-1993 ask any of the survey chasers here about where each brand stood. I bet you won't like where Cadillac stood relative to Mercedes, who led the things. Where do you think all this fall from grace and drop-in-quality talk came from concerning Mercedes?

"They sold 20,000 Allante's between 1987 and 1993 the production run for the car...The last year had the highest sales with about 6700 sold as I recall."

Wow! In 7 model years they sold 20K units. Whooptie-doo. The 500SL alone (not even counting the 300SL and 600SL) sold 23806 units (mbusa.com) in just six model years from 1990 to 1995 at a much higher price than Cadillac dared dreaming of charging for the junker Allante. No matter which way you try to spin it the SL, specifically the 500SL slaughtered the Allante. Some enduring quality the car was cancelled because of it.

M

lexusguy · July 2004

You might as well give up bud, you're not going to win this one. Those guys in their SLs were probably more amused at your Allante than feeling pity for you. The Jag XJS's 4.0L V6 of the time outpowered Cadillac's V8, and it had a proper power top, and RWD. Cadillac was not ready to play hardball in those days. They basically just wanted to be better than the joke that was\is Lincoln, and that was about it. The Allante was a half-assed effort at the big leagues, and it failed, just as the Catera did, and all of the other times Cadillac phoned it in. It appears they've learned their lesson, but it was the CTS that marked the first time Cadillac could be mentioned along side Mercedes and BMW without inducing snickering.

merc1 · July 2004

What I truly can't understand is how one that obviously appreciates quality (a LS430 owner) could come up with so much bs to cover such an ill-conceived car like an Allante.

The industry that praised the first LS400 of the day is right but they're wrong in slamming the Allante of the same time frame to the forgetten land of GM's worst screw ups. What a double standard.

Or....

Is this your "enthusiast" side Mike? Meaning you're apt to overlook certain things for a car that you thought delivered unrivaled driving pleasure? Never thought of it like that even though some of the stuff you're coming up with for the Allante wouldn't be forgiven by anyone then or now. Hence the car's demise on the market.

M

maxhonda99 · July 2004

"Reading some of their posts its obvious they don't have a clue as to what a Mercedes was or is about today." What a Mercedes was or is about? You act like it's a person or something..geez...it's a car. A Mercedes has always been about prestige and since it's a car, getting from Point A to B in style.

"The same could also be said about the Lexus owners who talk down about Audi and BMWs, most of them wouldn't and haven't gone near one to even know what they're talking about. Especially the Audi detractors." Honestly I don't see a whole lot of this, I don't know where you get this from. It seems more like a Lexus basher comes into play and then when the Lexus lover defends Lexus, all of a sudden he becomes a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes basher without that person even saying anything about BMW, Audi, or Mercedes.

"What you and other Lexi never seem to get is that nobody is saying the S500 is a "drivers car" in the purest sense, only that it is more of a drivers car than a LS430."

Yet, you always make it out to seem like the S-class is soo much of a better performer than the LS430.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

I don't get the Allante thing. That thing was a joke for it's price point, and personally no competition to the MB SL.

hjcanter · July 2004

My Dad has an Allante and it is not that bad of a car. Yes, it not the best package, but a fun touring car. The top is easy to put down and the storage space inside the car and the trunk is great. My parents can take two sets of golf clubs and luggage for trips. You can not do that with the new SL or the SC. Very little problems as well.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

I'm not saying it was a bad car. But for the money it was low quality. Back in the early 90s or something they were selling the Allante for about $50K and it had shoddy quality, a poor fitting top, and originally it was powered by that weezy pushrod 200bhp 4.9L V8.
And to compare it to a $80-$90K Mercedes SL is ridiculous. The Mercedes may not have been perfect in terms of reliability, but it was built like a rock, was as solid as a rock, had timeless looks(it still looks great today), and simply, the SL was in a totally different league. Allante vs. SL500/SL320 is a pointless comparison.

michael_mattox · July 2004

Lexusguy:

I always love the Jag..Sadly I did not fit in it either. You are just plain wrong about the Allante.

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

Your style seems to be to jump from one model year/or model to another to make your point...So lets get real specific. Information all taken from Edmonds. FACTS ARE A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE!

1993 Allante vrs 1993 SL 500

The Mercedes weighed in at 4165............Allante 3766
HP...315 and 347 ft. lbs...................295 and 290 ft. lbs.

NOTE: The Allante power plant is pushing 400 lbs less.

JD Powers Reliability ratings: Long Term ratings (over 5 yrs.)

Mercedes:

Mechanical 5/5.........................Allante 5/5
Body and Interior 4/5..........................3/5
Feature and accessory 4/5......................4/5

Note: The first 90 days and mid term ratings are not as favorable to Mercedes.

Trunk space 7.9 Cu. Ft........................16cu.ft.

Note: The Allante also has substantual cargo space on a shelf behind the seats. (enough for two big suit cases)

NOTE: What is the value of a car that you cannot even take you golf clubs to the country club in...That you can't take a weeks vacation in because you can't carry your luggage. Lord, I don't know what you could do in thing other then "Cruse The Ave"

pablo_l · July 2004

I don't think the Allante and SL ever really competed in the same segment. The Allante was clearly a class below. When I was shopping for a lux convertible, I briefly considered the Allante, but decided it was too much money. I never een contemplated the SL, because it was much more expensive.

I should mention that at that time, when I moved to the USA from Europe, I actually wanted to buy an American car. I was very favorabl disposed to buy Detroit iron. Alas, nothing I saw drove felt right. The Japanese offering oddly seemed to offer the qualities associated with USA cruising - a certain overall softness and relaxed engines. I got an Infiniti, but I was very underwhelmed with its build quality: terrible. I have never seen a car age so badly within a year and a half.

livinbmw · July 2004

livinbmw · July 2004

It's so nice that we can get some first hand information about owning an allante.

This statement really carries a lot more weight with me than someone who hasn't even owned a single one premium car.

I'll bet that cadillac looked incredible out in front of the clubhouse.

lexusguy · July 2004

Would that have been the short lived M30 drop top? Btw, the XK8 trunk has enough space for two golf bags.

michael_mattox · July 2004

Allante was never a CLASS BELOW Mercedes SL...Unless your sole cryteria for Class is Price. The Allante offered more luxury, was more practical because of the luggage and storage space, Offered just as much performance and in fact won a face off with Mercedes that was published in ? Car and Driver, Road and track or Consumer reports..I just don't remember.

michael_mattox · July 2004

That it did BMW...It also looked good infront of the Pro shop...No Mercedes were there because you couldn't carry you clubs in them (and still squeeze the wife in the car and forget about her clubs.)

designman · July 2004

I wouldn't let golf clubs get in the way of a sports car purchase. Here are some solutions:

1 - Put clubs in passenger's seat. Golf is too serious to have passenger's anyway. Gotta psyche yourself up for the matches.

2 - Leave clubs at the course locker.

3 - Drive other car. Not too many people own only a sports car anyway.

4 - Buy a used Allante ;-)

Michael, stop this golf talk, you're getting me jealous. I belonged to a club for many years and am starting to miss it. Too damn busy to play regularly anymore! Hate to go out sporadically because then the game suffers.

:-)

michael_mattox · July 2004

Designman:

I concede number 4 as a wonderful idea.

If you can't take your sports car in the summer up to the mountains or beach for a few days...or even drive it to the club to play golf What good is it.

1) Clubs in front seat...That works...If you are not playing with your wife or son or daughter and you don't want to take seperate cars or the dull lexus family sedan....Often I would travel to other clubs with a friend if I had a Mercedes I suppose I could have bought a little trailer to haul behind my car....God the sun is out and birds are singing and there is the smell of fresh cut grass in the air...I want to take my Convertable to the CLUB.

2) leaving clubs in your locker is fine as long as your playing has his or her clubs there also...otherwise you need to have your partner carry their clubs on their lap or hook up that trailer.

3) You will have a family car BUT...The sun is shining, the birds are singing, little chipmunks are running up and down the trees, and there is the smell of freshly cut grass in the air....Who wants to drive the family sedan...WHY OWN A CONVERTABLE

michael_mattox · July 2004

Designman:

As a lifetime 21, I had to learn long ago that my score was not nearly as important as being in the fresh air with friends.

Get back out on that golf course, It is also a good Business/social setting.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

ljflx,

I read in another board somewhere where you said Lexus turned to Porsche to tune the '06 GS's suspension. Where did you pick up this information from? I haven't read a word of this from any press release.

ljflx · July 2004

I read it in one or two automags as well as a business article about Lexus (may have been Businesweek or Forbes - don't remember). The latter was about Lexus cars that will debut with the new styling and worldwide branding. Both were probably around the time of the Tokyo motor show. Lexus had brought the GS to Germany and Porsche engineers were going to make modifications. One of the stories had indicated that Porsche and Lexus had collaborated at the onset of the GS development as well.

Personally I think this GS is going to shake things up a lot more than people on this board think.

sapparo · July 2004

Found this on a Japan auto site it's the all new Crown which is a legendary luxury model in Japan. Too bad they didn't use this as the current LS flagship, it looks sleeker and more dynamic IMO. The new models get advanced 4wd systems, contiously variable direct injection Dual VVTI engine technology and electro. driven steering.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

This is new news to me. Very interesting news since I completely missed this information and it's not often that Toyota/Lexus news misses me.

If they are truly collaborating on the development of the GS with Porsche, that is indeed great news!

rgsw · July 2004

Regards your PS: Don't see any "Black Styrofoam", only a black rubber panel on the 2004 LS430.

ljflx · July 2004

I remember making a post at the time i read it. I'll see if I can locate it as it may at least state what automag I read it in.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

If you can find it cool, otherwise I'll believe you anyway.

livinbmw · July 2004

that's one thing about BMW.....they wouldn't need to go to another company for suspension help. I wouldn't like the sound of this necessarily if I were one of these toyota zealouts. What possibly could happen in regards to reliability issues? Why do you need Porsche?

Where's audibob?

maxhonda99 · July 2004

How is suspension tuning going to impact reliability?

BTW, you should take your own advice and only speak about cars you yourself own.

warthog · July 2004

Audibob was an alien, and the mothership has departed. {Chill out Pat--I've got the support of everyone here.)

michael_mattox · July 2004

BMW

What makes lexus such a great company is that they are willing to go and find the best in the world...they will take that suspension improve it here and there, make a 1000 small tweeks and by the time it is done it will be reliable..they are not limited by silly little BMW made it issues..They just want the best.

kdshapiro · July 2004

"They just want the best"

That is an open definition. You're definition of best is different than mine. Heck Ferrari sells out it's production line yet it's fairly unreliable. Reliability has nothing to do with "best".

pablo_l · July 2004

Actually, I know someone that works for an engineering company that does work for BMW on several counts. They have had a very long term collaboration. BMW does *not* develop everything -suspension or otherwise- internally. They have long acknolwedged the fact no company can be an expert in every technology. Car companies these days are system integrators to a very large degree. All of them.

merc1 · July 2004

Are you serious? For about the 10th time, in 1990 the R129 SL debuted and it remained basically the same car (with a few changes) until the spring of 2002 when the current SL came out. It doesn't matter which year SL you use, unlike the Allante which has to be a 1993 model that GM managed to get half-right in time for the lights to be turned off.

"The Mercedes weighed in at 4165............Allante 3766
" HP...315 and 347 ft. lbs...................295 and 290 ft. lbs.
"NOTE: The Allante power plant is pushing 400 lbs less.

NOTE MIKE: The 500SL was still faster than the Allante. Look up the issue in which Car and Driver tested both! Do you not understand that a car with more torque (you know the force that actually moves the car) can overcome a weight disadvantage? This is what torque is for. Something the Allante didn't need more of because of its bass-ackwards fwd V8 layout.

I also mentioned the 600SL. You don't in your response. Obviously you know that the 600SL would stomp the Allante.

Your JDP notes make no sense. Is the left side for Mercedes and right for Cadillac? Now tell me what the point of that is when the car was discontinued because it such a poorly engineered piece of junk.

To keep talking about trunk space in a roadster that was so flawed in it's basic engineering is really foolish. I have to get out and let the top up on a 60K lux-roadster, but I can carry my golf clubs. Do you know how ridiculous this sounds? Gee I have a 300hp V8 in time for the car to be canceled and all the previous years I had a feeble, wheezing 140-200hp V8. Nobody gave a lug nut about the Allante's trunk because it never sold in the numbers GM wanted nor did it match the 500SL in sales, a much more expensive car at that. You could have bought a Chrysler LeBaron back in the day or Chrysler TC if all you were concerned about is luggage space in a roadster.

Do you see where your replys are getting smaller and smaller because everything point you make doesn't hold water and you really can't dispute the fact:

1. The 500SL (alone) outsold the Allante. So much for that earlier sales point by you.
2. The 500SL and 600SL outperformed the Allante.
3. The Allante was discontinued due to slow sales.
4. The Allante had the most pitiful convertible top in the history of modern day lux-roadsters.
5. The SL outright shamed the Allante in engine design, top design, safety equimpment, build quality, etc. etc.

This is by far the most ridiculous comparision I've seen on this board and thus completely obliterates your credibility with me.

BTW, the Allante never beat the 500SL in any comparo that I've ever seen. The only comparo that the Allante won was with the 300SL, which it did so on performance, not design, quality, engineering or anything else relating to the car past the engine room.

What I find here is very hypocritical because if this had been a Mercedes that left the market in such a shameful disgrace like the Allante did you'd be harping about that for ever. Saying things like "the market has spoken" and what not, but for the Allante you're almost acting like it was some type of great car that didn't catch on with the public. The truth of the matter is that the public saw it for what it was..no competitor to the SL and a piece of ill-conceived junk. You never even drove the R129 SL (1990-2002) to know anything past trunk space and that you didn't fit into it. This is what you base your superiority argument on? Insert laughter.

M

merc1 · July 2004

I have never heard anything about Porsche helping Lexus with the 2006 GS either, thats news to me. Would love to read about it. It may be true since Toyota did help Porsche restructure a few years back.

Mike,

"What makes lexus such a great company is that they are willing to go and find the best in the world...they will take that suspension improve it here and there, make a 1000 small tweeks and by
the time it is done it will be reliable..they are not limited by silly little BMW made it issues.."

What??? I'm just dying to know what Lexus did with a BMW suspension design to improve it. Please tell. Have you ever looked under your LS and a 7-Series BMW? What in the world does suspension tuning have to do with reliability? BMW's have "unreliable" suspensions now?

maxhonda99,

I'm done with the perception, handling, and who bashes what stuff. I see it one way and you see it another. It goes both ways with all the brands on these boards.

M

michael_mattox · July 2004

If you only make 200 cars a year...Selling out your production line in not really relevent to this discussion. That said Lexus sells out a gigantic production line (compared to ferrari) with the acknowledged most reliable car in the world.

Bottom line 10s of 1000s of people buy Lexus ...just a very few buy Ferrari

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

Lets not play silly spinn games. I did not say they bought or used the BMW suspension...I indicated "If they did"

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc.

There you go again...Is the SL so lame a car you need to try and confuse the issue by jumping from model to model and year to year to make your points....I was very specific about sticking to a model 500sl and year 1993...and...The Allante of the same year.

You have done this over and over again and it just points out the weakness of your arguments....

You also throw in a lot of so called stats without showing the actual data...WHY IS THAT MERC?....Lets see the performance numbers (for the 1993 cars.) If you have them.

How many 500 SLs were were sold in the US in 1993...I gave you the number for Allante 6700....

Lets have some specifics for a change instead of your rambling and babbling out unsubstantuated figures.

ONCE AGAIN LETS STICK TO THE 1993 500SL (THE CAR YOU ORGINALLY BROUGHT UP IN THE MESSAGE I RESPONDED TO)

kdshapiro · July 2004

True, but both the 7 and LS are mass market cars, with global sales of the 7 trailing slightly to the LS. Seems if the 7 were *that* bad, they'd sell zero. However, if reliability were the only factor, nobody except Honda/Toyota would sell a car. Certainly the Cayennes' issues would have killed Porsche.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

to defend michael, where does he say the 7-series was *that* bad? huh, nowhere.

Here's just another example of " 'da syndrome"-somebody says nothing *that* bad about BMW yet it's taken as though that person said *that* bad.

kdshapiro · July 2004

Huh! Where did I say he said it was that bad. I was replying to his post and in general, echoing certain sentiment that seems to be flying around.

The board needs some chillin' dude.

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