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Comments
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1993/cadillac/allante/778/ratings_jdp- ower.html?tid=edmunds.u.ratings.ratingsbody..4.Cadillac*
State where who said what? New York? New Jersey? Mississippi?? Got me there.
You, YOU you're good!
designman - The wedding in Florida?? No - Alice - but substitute George Washington for Clemenza - in the episode where Ralph says men run the world. Or are you wondering about the state? Hint - they had to cross the river to kill Paulie - the same river that many commuters from that state do every morning to go to work. Hey - Billy C was hillarious in Ananlyze This. The shark scene was great.
Joyzy. No?
Yes - the great state of NJ.
You all be nice now. NICE!!!
I agree they should fix their house in private and if they do it right the results will follow, no need to state them beforehand.
M
"When I talked about 250 HP that was for Pre 1993...Since I am sticking to comparing 93 Allante to 93 SL500 in order to try and avoid your dancing around issues by switching between models and year."
Ok pre-1993, you mean from the 1987-1992 models right? The 500SL came out for 1990 Mike and it had a 322hp DOHC V8. Fact. It outperformed any pre or post Northstar Allante quite easily. Fact. The 1993 500SL had the same engine as the 1990, 1991, and 1992 models, why this is so hard for you to grasp is beyond me. The 500SL later renamed (along with all Mercedes) the SL500 was the SAME CAR from 1990-2002. My point is that the R129 SL (the chassis code) for the V8 engined 500SL/SL500 from 1990-2002 would outperform any year Allante you'd care to mention. You really can't understand this?
There is no dancing from model years to do here, the 500SL/SL500 was the same car for 13 MY years (1990-2002)!
"Support for the Allante...There was a young man who wrote about his fathers Allante and how much he liked it.
Wow, and the car got cancelled anyway. Find a knowledgeable source the put the 500SL over the Allante and then post. People can like whatever they want, obviously. Doesn't mean they have a clue about the vehicle.
No one here agrees with you about the Allante being superior to the SL. An owner of just then Allante (and not having even driven the SL like you haven't) doesn't qualify as an expert to anyone but themsleves. The industry put the SL at the top of the class then as they do now. If Edmund's editors said anything like what you're saying about the Allante and previous SL it obviously goes in the "what were they thinking" tank with Motor Trend naming the 1991 Chevy Caprice their "car of the year". A completely off-base view and not supported by any other automotive source. That alone tells you that it was a mistake.
"At to the sales numbers in the US...the Mercedes SL500 sold a little less then 800 and the Allante sold 6700...Your figures made my point...Prior to 93 I don't believe there was an SL500. But with Mercedes funky way of labeling their cars ...Who knows and for this comparison it really doesn't matter."
Where do you get this stuff? Didn't you read the link I gave you? The 500SL/SL500 (since you can't seem to understand it is the same car) sold 1721 units in 1993. Fact. Again the numbers:
Model
Year U.S. Sales
1990 2,830
1991 6,061
1992 5,355
1993 1,721
1994 3,118
1995 4,721
My source for this is MBSUSA.COM, please give your source for the 800 units you say MB sold for 1993. Otherwise I'll go by the what the people who sold the car says. These are U.S. sales not worldwide sales and it says that clear as day. Are you saying that MBUSA is lying?
"Prior to 93 I don't believe there was an SL500
OMG. Prior to 1993 there was a 500SL which was merely renamed the SL500 along with every other Mercedes, it was the same exact car.
"I still haven't been able to determine the performance figures for the 1993 500SL ...Yes I did look at the chart by it doesn't give the year of the car on the chart that shows 0-60 times.
Wait a minute, you looked at the chart for the performance numbers but you didn't look up above (on the same chart) to see the sales numbers only to come back and fabricate this 800 units in the US for sales?
When you read "the chart" you didn't see this:
"Body Style 129, Introduced to U.S. Fall 1989, Name changed to SL500 in Fall 1993."
It clearly states this at the bottom of the sales numbers. If this doesn't clear up the naming and model year confusion for you then it is hopeless. It was the same car from 1990-2002!
Like I said before when I get time I'll look through the mags and find the comparo.
M
Hey, what's with the mood swings in those SL numbers? I think I noticed the same post '95. Must be a fickle roadster factor.
You say FACT is outperformes the 93 Allante...What are the Numbers...Lets see them.
You say lets compare any year Allante to the 500SL...OK...Compare the 93 500SL to the 93 Allante...LETS SEE THE NUMBERS...LETS SEE A LINK
In your previous post the chart showed 700+ units and you said that was US sales???? I accept 1700+ for the SL500....Allante sold 6700 in 93
WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FOR THE 93 SL500/500SL????? LESS TALK AND MORE SHOW PLEASE...
P.S the chart I looked at for the SL did not specify model years as I have already said in previous messages. OR...I did not know how to read the chart.
AGAIN..WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FOR THE 93 SL500 OR 500SL WHATEVER.
Except for mechanical quality, your link shows, the Allante is not that great for Body & INterior quality.
I don't know man, you keep asking Merc1 to bring up facts about the SL being better than the Allante. But you know what? I don't see much facts from you either. Links to reviews from both cars would be good. Better yet, the SL vs. Allante would be good. The Edmunds link doesn't tell all that much except the Allante's Body & INterior quality stank.
At least you have seen some facts from me....Apparently you looked at just the figures you wanted to ....It is the over 5 year figures that matter and you are obviously discussing something else.
P.S. the Allante figures were almost exactly the same as the $100,000 500SLs numbers...My point was that all this Mercedes built like a tank stuff from Merc. was a little overboard at least compared to Allante.
The tank like stuff is not overboard. Even when the C5 Corvette Convertible came out, every magazine was comparing it's solidity level to the SL500s, which was considered up until recently the benchmark for convertible solidity.
The JD power mechanical quality or interior ratings say nothing about solidity.
JDPOWER
4-5 yrs. Allante
Mechanical Dependability 5 out of 5 (SL was the same)
Body & Interior 3 out of 5 (SL was 4 out of 5)
Feature and Accessory 4 out of 5 (SL was the same)
I owned my Allante for over 11 years It was tight as a drum when I sold it. (only had 79,000 miles on it.) Because I owned one and Because most people are not very familiar with them there is a lot of mis-information about them.
The 93 was the fastest front wheel drive car in the world but not as fast as the modified XJR-15 which sold for 1 million and went 0-60 in 4.5 seconds.
I still think the Allante is far more beautifull then the SL...The Allante actually still looks fresh and a look at the 93 SL makes it's age obvious.
We are all entitled to our opinion...No matter how mis-informed we may be.
"Somebody get a dictionary and look up this friggin word 'closure'."
Ljflx, gotta beat on who said it?
If you truly believe what you are saying ...where is the proof.
it can sense the onset of traction loss and apply pulsed braking EVEN WHILE THE DRIVER KEEPS A FOOT ON THE ACCELERATOR.
It can electronically cut out up to five of the eight clyinders to provideadditional slowing power, and bring them back on line when traction has been restored.
It shifts its four-speed transmission electronically, guided by a computer that actually anticipates each shift based on the driver's demands. If you are driving agressively the car anticipates that and the Powertrain Control Module holds the car in each gear a little longer for better acceleration but when you want to drive sedately the computer recognizes that too and shifts eariler, saving gas and engine wear.
The Allante, in an emergency, can drive for miles with an empty radiator, cutting cylinders out in rotation just before they overheat and then switching them back in as they cool.
But what the Allante mostly is, is really, really fast, the fastest front-wheel drive car in the world, the 32 valve, 4.6 liter V8 engine, which Cadillac calls the Northstar, is just a detuned raching engine, with aluminum pistons (to save weight) and a fuel-injection system built of nylon, magnesium and spaceage plastics intended to insulate the incoming fuel from the heat of the cylinder head. "the beauty of this system," in the estimation of J. David Powell, and engineering professor at Stanford," is that the fuel is much cooler, allowing a more dense air/fuel charge into the combustion chamber for additional horsepower," In practical terms this means that the 1993 Allante will go from 0-60 in 6.9 sec. That is pretty fast although not as fast as a specially modified Jaguar XJR-15 which will do it in 4.5 sec. But that costs $1 Million dollars.
FROM MACHINE DESIGN June 11, 1992
The engine is quiet, even with the hood up, and the car is quiet while running. Cadillac designers' work on lowering wind-noise paid off, because with the top down I was able to hold conversations without yelling.
The Twisty mountain roads allowed me to test the car's real-time damping and speed-sensitive steering. Damping system sensors measure the relationship of the wheels to the car body to reduce body pitch and roll during cornering, front-end dive during braking, and lift during acceleration. The speed-sensitive steering is continuously variable, so changes are imperceptible, even during the slow-down/speedup of hairpin turns.
All together, the car inspires confident driving.
IF you had not posted again on this subject, I would not feel obligated to do so.
When you say any of us ...do you presume to speak for the rest of the board?
Based on the figures provided in 1993 Allante sold 6700 units and the 500SL sold 1700 units...Why Cadillac discontinued production I do not know and didn't understand at the time....I do know that Cadallic engineers had finally figured out how to have a fully retractable top without losing luggage space they were scheduled to introduce the car in 1995 when cadillac pulled the plug.
40 years from now show me a 3 million dollar 1993 500SL...It is more likely that I will be able to show you that 3 mill Allante. It is still a beautifull car today. The 93 500SL looks dated today.
The Allante is a high end luxury car, we talk about BMW Past and present, Merc, Jag, Rolls, Bentley, Audi etc. and all manor of Luxury Cars of all ages here.
I would also note that myself and Lexus were two of the few posters here for the last couple of days.
Articles saying the ALlante was good doesn't mean it was better than the Mercedes SL. Those are excerpts of just the Allante and none of them say the Allante is something along the line of.."the best convertible money can buy"..."The most solid convertible"..."the best built convertible".
From everything I remember reading about the SL from 89? to the late 90s said it was one of the best convertibles money can buy with unmatched solidity. I don't need proof, everyone hear can pretty much say they have read the same thing in magazines. Besides, you say Car and Driver rated the Allante over the SL500, but where's the proof? You haven't shown any proof/facts either. I think if you went down to a Public library and pulled out every article about the previous SL, they will pretty much tell you the SL was the most solid convertible on the market. Also, read some C5 Corvette Convertible articles, which will mention the SL, but no Allante in reference to body rigidity.
And no one is saying the Allante is flimsy or something, just saying the SL was the benchmark for convertibles in the 90s.
I do have an edge on you...I owned an Allante and drove a couple of SLs before I bought the Allante.
I am not sure of the Magazine but I thought Car & Driver but could have been one of the other majors, Rated the 93 Allante above the SL in a comparison ...I believe Allante also got a top rating in a prior year but I don't remember for sure....
I have been to the local Library but their computer listing of reviews only go back to 94...The same also seems to be true of the internet Can't find much on either of these cars....They were limited production special cars....
I think Three things seperated the 93 Allante from the 93 500SL....1)Luggage space and room generally, you could actually tour with the car take two sets of golf clubs or ski's and still bring luggage and a significent other. 2) The Northstar system and the innovations mentioned in a previous post. 3) It was a far more Beautiful car.
I should add that the front wheel drive was a godsent in snowy CT where I lived when I bought the car....With Blizzacks It could pretty much handle any conditions.
Michael_Mattox, you have stated many good reasons as to why YOU chose to buy the Allante over the SL. You think the Allante was the better car, but no one else here agrees with you so just leave it be. The great thing is that we can all disagree with eachother, but we don't have to battle things out like this. Trying to give reason why YOU think the Allante is the better car is a lost cause, because try as you might, no one is supporting you in your views. Just because it was a better car for you, does not mean it is the better car for others. And hey it's not 1993 anymore, so why don't we talk about the cars of today & tomorrow, and not the cars of yesteryear?
Let's change the topic. Has anyone seen the new Toyota sedan that came out in Japan? It is called the Crown Majesta. What do you guys think? Here it is
Kinda reminds me of a Maybach in the rear. The interior is gorgeous though.
"In your previous post the chart showed 700+ units and you said that was US sales???? I accept 1700+ for the SL500....Allante sold 6700 in 93."
No chart or link I ever posted said anything like that. Period. It said (they MBUSA.COM) said 1721 sales for 1993. End of story. You said 700 or 800 in your confused state. The link didn't change from one posting to another, you simply got confused. The only reason the Allante sold 6700 copies is because it had a 18 month-long 1993 model year. The 93 model was intro'd in the spring of 1992 and you're acting like that doesn't make a difference when adding up model year sales.
I cannot for the life of me understand how one can appreciate Lexus on one hand and can't accept the truth about a Cadillac on the other.
The Allante was cancelled because:
1. It debuted with a truly sorry 140hp V8.
2. It was fwd in a sea of rwd competitors.
3. It had the worlds most ridiculously cheap convertible top.
4. It in the begining was built like an outhouse.
5. It never sold because of the above.
6. The car had a ridiculously expensive production process that involved flying bodies-in-white from Itality to Detroit, how stupid could GM have been. This costs them $$$$ that they didn't have back then.
When you look at the two cars just on paper it seems to be common sense to everyone else that the Allante at best wasn't even competitive with the 500SL, at worst it was junk.
It has taken 10+ posts to understand the SL was the same car from 1990 onward and that the SL500 and 500SL is the same exact car. Once it was proven that the Allante having sold 20K units in 7 model years compared to 23K for just 6 with the SL, the theory change to the 1993 model year. It was implied that the 1993 Allante could outpeform any SL, yet when the 600SL was mentioned it was never heard about again.
"I think Three things seperated the 93 Allante from the 93 500SL....1)Luggage space and room generally, you could actually tour with the car take two sets of golf clubs or ski's and still bring luggage and a significent other. 2) The Northstar system and the innovations mentioned in a previous post. 3) It was a far more Beautiful car.
1. Nobody cared, obviously.
2. The 32V DOHC V8 in the 500SL still outperformed it. The 600SL V12 would obliterate it.
3. Purely subjective.
This is the what the superiority case is based on?
The Allante was never placed over the 500SL in any comparo by any of the major U.S. mags. Those being Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile, Motor Trend, or any others like Autoweek, Sports Car International or any other sane publication anywhere.
Car and Driver placed the Allante over the 300SL, not the 500SL or 600SL in a comparo, which I'll have to find now because this is a truly stunning denial of everything. The only thing that the Allante was superior in was accleration, obviously.
If this had been a Mercedes vs a Lexus with the Mercedes having the track record of the Allante, you'd believe everything written about the Lexus being superior. It is amazing you haven't said anything about the market, press or anything else you use when saying Lexuses are better. It is painfully obviously that those usual Lexus specialities can't be used. Nothing in any of those articles say anything about the SL, much less than the Allante was better.
Lastly, you never even drove the 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 SL. How could you possibly know how it drove or was built? You prove that you had no experience with the 1990-2002 SL because everyone who ever drove the car will tell you it was indeed built like a tank, heck your own ratings for the Allante showed it to have a inferior body and interior.
The boast about having the fastest front wheel drive car in the world is the silliest thing in the automotive world. Nobody, and I mean nobody else was dumb enough to put 300hp to the front wheels of a luxury roadster, in short.....nobody else was competiting so the Allante was the fastest in a class of one. Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche all had 2-door cars during those years and you didn't see any of them saddled with fwd.
The SL model you drove was designed in the late sixties for a 1971 debut and was out of date by the time the Allante came on the scene in 1987.
"In practical terms this means that the 1993 Allante will go from 0-60 in 6.9 sec."
I know for a fact that the 500SL was faster than that. I know you don't believe it without the comparo, and I promise I won't post again until I have the comparo in front of me. I'll just put up the numbers and their notes, none of my opinion.
The sad thing is that I still have the 500SL roadtest by Motorweek from 1990 on tape. Don't know how to get that on here.
M
This is not a good styling trend, imo.
The best view of the Crown Majesta is from the side because from the front and rear looks like an Acura RL or something Korean. They (Koreans) seem prefer a look that says updated Lincoln or something at least at the rear and unfortunately the Maybach has a similarly unattractive rear.
M
I asked: Under what sigle brand can you find a Maybach, Saab, and Ferrari all for less than the originals?
The Answer: Hyundai.
The Elantra GT is a dead-ringer for the old Saab 900/9-3 5-door hatchbacks. The Tiburon GT is a Ferrari 456GT clone and the XG300/350 is your Maybach knockoff.
Their sister brand Kia has what has to be the largest number of borrowed styling ques of any car on the market in their Amanti model. The front is either Jaguar or Mercedes, and the back is either Lincoln or Buick. What a mess of a car.
Lexusguy,
I tried not to say this, but Toyota of all companies can't take anyone to court because of copied or borrowed styling. In the Chinese market where some Chinese companies have blatantly taken designs from them (GM and Honda too) maybe, but not here. Toyota has too many arguable knock-offs of their own to take anyone to court over anything.
M
Isn't the Crown the Toyota that has a V-12 or a V-12 option?
Do we have to go thru this again?
Please list all the knock-offs Toyota/Lexus makes! I bet you you can only come with 2-3, even somewhat legitimate knock-offs.
I am posting only in response to others who insist on telling me what EVERYBODY thinks...If you guys stop I will...How simple could that be.
Were are compairing the 1993 Allante with the 1993 SL...Something you seem to be afraid to do.
1)The car had the Northstar engine with 290 to 295 HP.
2)It had the advantage of being the fastest FWD car on earth...Was ideal for a touring car in the northern parts of the country.
3)The top was expensive and well engineered NOTE: you could also get it with a hard top option.
4)The 93 Allante we are discussing had a build quality comparable to the 93 Mercedes 500 SL as evidenced by the data I have posted from Edmonds.
5)In 1993 (the yr. we are reviewing) the 500SL sold 1700+ units and the Allante sold 6700...hard to make the case that nobody bought it.
6)The car sold for $40,000 less then the 500SL. Shipping those bodies in by 747 didn't seem to deminish the Allante's price advantage.
Even on paper the 93 Allante was more technically advanced then the 500 was more practical because of the advanced traction system and fwd
and the massave trunk (when was not made smaller when the top was down) (even had a pass through from the trunk) and storage. The SL was a fine car but as you have stated was outdated (and looked it) and was just not as good as the ALLANTE in 93. I am sure it was updated in later yrs. (at least I hope so)
The fact that the SL was an established prestige make and only managed to out sell the Allante by 3,000 units over those years is not a very impressive argument for your side.
Find the consumer report link or cut and paste...I will have to see it for the 1993 model year....Note I believe Allante rated above the Mercedes in a yr. prior to 93 in addition to it's obvious superiority in 93. Perhaps 1990 was that yr...
Never said I did drive all those model years...your method of attempting to make your point is to jump from model and year to different models and years, rather then make a straight compairson...I am sticking to the 93 model year in the Allante and the Mercedes 500SL.
It is true putting a lot of HP into fwd was very creative and innovative ...The fact that no one else COULD do it is a testiment to good old American engineering....IT WORKED GREAT. The Car is classically beautiful even today.
Don't care about the 1990 SL we are compairing the 93 models...No more bait and switch..
"It is true putting a lot of HP into fwd was very creative and innovative ...The fact that no one else COULD do it is a testiment to good old American engineering....IT WORKED GREAT. The Car is classically beautiful even today."
How is putting a V8 for FWD duty creative? The only difference between this and most other FWD cars was that they had a max of 6-cylinders. It's not a big deal, nor is it creative, just because you fit a V8 under the hood! And it's not that "no else COULD do it", it is that no one else WANTED to do it. The luxury car class has always been about RWD, the only difference is that it took GM nearly 2 decades to figure it out and is now finally switching to RWD.
Personally, I don't think the Allante was all that good looking back then to begin with and was no match for the Benz SL500/320/600, which still look absolutely beautiful today, 15 years after introduction.
"The SL was a fine car but as you have stated was outdated (and looked it) and was just not as good as the ALLANTE in 93. I am sure it was updated in later yrs. (at least I hope so)"
The SL was outdated? Please stop! The SL500 didn't even become outdated in 1998, which is why it was still selling strongly at the end of it's life-cycle vs. the Allante which entered car heaven only a few years after introduction. The SL in the same body style lasted for over a decade.
It is obvious that people want to keep discussing this issue...Including you...when people stop posting on this issue I will also...I am only responding to others.
Nobody else did do it...Nobody else could do it..Cadallic did it and created the fastest FWD car in the world.
Looks can be subjective..We obviously disagree about the Allante's looks.
Cadillac wanted to keep producing the Allante...a new GM CEO took it out of production...I believe it was a mistake. The Allante was in the same body for it's 7 yr. production run. It was always more beautiful then the SL..In it's time.
No more posting about the Allante - that seems to be what folks SAY they want even if it is not what they are doing.
So let's all agree to move on now.
The local dealer is giving my grief about buying out of town, but they have less selection and aren't as generous with the trade-in allowance.
What should be a fun process, is not.