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High End Luxury Cars

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  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Business Week's latest edition has an article on this. Toyota gaining in 8th, Mercedes staying put at 11th, BMW narrowly ahead of Honda and Ford at 17th. For what it's worth.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    scott:

    I flew 1500 miles to get the best buy on my LS no problem with my local dealer...and...It was a lot of fun buying it. Lexus is known for having terrific dealerships. Maybe it would be fun..Just to drive one.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I like it...there is no such thing as too many gadgets...AS LONG AS THEY ALL WORK
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    Where exactly does the Crown Majesta fit in with the line? Is it above or below the LS430? It looks smaller than the LS in my eyes...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its hard to tell, Toyota has SO many JDM cars, I probably am only aware of maybe 1\10 of them.
  • sapparosapparo Member Posts: 68
    This was pulled from an article written in 2000. The black car Royal above is similar to the Lexus GS and share the same engine/drive train. This has the all new 4wd system that the next GS gets here.

    "There are 3 versions of Crown - Majesta, Royal and Athlete. The Athlete is the most sporty, with stiffest suspension setup. Majesta is most luxurious, powered by a 280 hp V8. It also has longer wheelbase. Royal runs middle of the road and is usually the best seller among them. No matter which version, handling is far beyond imagination. Gone is the traditional soft suspension setup, which is replaced with firmer springing and damping. As a result, steering response and body control are greatly improved. Although it is still regarded as comfort-bias by European standard, it is already more driver-bias than other domestic rivals, including Nissan Gloria. In particular, it rolls less and steer with more feel than the Nissan.

    Although the range-topping Majesta is powered by Lexus뭩 4-litre V8, most other Crowns are likely to be ordered with 3.0 inline-6. This 24-valver is actually the same as Supra and Lexus GS300. No matter with or without direct-injection, it output 220 horsepower and 217 lbft of torque. As in Lexus GS, it is silky smooth and quiet. Predictably, Toyota provides no option for manual gearbox, but there are two electronic automatic for choose: 4-speed automatic is smoother; 5-speed Super ECT (with Tiptronic style manual override mode) is quicker."
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    If the local dealer is giving you grief than tell them to get competitive on your trade figures and do a dealer locate on the car that you want or just pass on the deal.

    Some cars are going to be dead on showrooms. The salesman should have know that you were coming and had the thing standing tall and ready to ride. Hopefully, this is less likely to happen at a premium car dealer but it happens. Have them put a brand new battery in it anyway, but that shouldn't be a problem.

    So, you drove 90 miles with two cars? I can't hardly believe that they weren't savvy enough to figure out some way to make you happy and make the deal happen after you went to so much effort.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    dieselbreath,

    re your post 6033 (I was on an extended vacation, sorry for the late reply), I think that modern diesels are indeed very impressive...compared to older deisels and current gas ICEs. But unless someone is doing 100% highway driving, hybrids are going to be better, imho. Read this: http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/10877346- 48278220.xml?banew and also the Automobile magazine article from 1-2 months back.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ive read that some of the older first gen Prius and Insight type hybrids are prone to more engine problems than their gas counterparts, but this is apparently something Honda and Toyota have gotten under control with their newest Prius and Civic hybrids. The article also mentioned that VW's diesels were having problems as well and that this was "curious, as diesel tech has been around much longer." There was no mention of VW QC, or should I say, total lack thereof.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Primo Sindone (Paul Vitti's archrival) played by Chazz Palminteri. Same movie – Analyze This.

    And now from Analyze That...
    "Paul, I think we've had enough sahzeech for one day."

    ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Please dont invite more of this pointless debate. Mike is obviously going to remain in his camp, and the rest of us will remain in ours. And just a btw, an Integra R with some goodies would make short work of a 7 second 0-60 sprint. I've seen some of the Nopi drag races on Speed, and its amazing how much power they've been able to put through FWD cars. For regular production street cars though, power + FWD is a pointless setup. Just ask the 93 Viggen, S60 T5, TL, Maxima, etc etc etc.

    Toyota going after Kia would hardly be the first example of a hypocritical infringement suit.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree and that is bascially what I was saying about having that much power in a fwd car. Such a layout can work and does in many cases, but it has limits as those cars you listed proves and in a high-end GT car it is nothing to brag about it is just plain dumb.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Toyota is the last company that should even think about taking someone else to court about styling, as they're almost as bad as the Koreans."

    Actually, I think they are worse. I see progress with the Koreans. Toyota shoots in the dark.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Just as I thought another post made by you which you can't back up.

    The only even slight knock-off I can think off is the LS430 and even that isn't really, because, personally the only resemblance to any other car I can see is in the C-pillar rearward area.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thought? Really? There is nothing to back up. Styling is a personal thing. What, back it up with what a link saying that a car like the MR2 is a fake or wannabe Boxster. The LS430 is as obvious as dirt.

    Like I said before if Toyota/Lexus has any such styled cars (2-3 per you not me) you already made my point.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    2-3 out of 20+ models says nothing.

    Look, your argument has been shot down before. YOu know when you say every Lexus is copied off of Benz, yet you can't come up with anything except for the LS430.

    If you count little styling cues as being knock-offs, everything would be a knock-off of everything else. Take a look at the 5-series, the rear end looks like a old Kia Rio, even MT caught that one, the current CLK looks like it has bits of Volvo C70 coupe and Mustang in the rear, the new RL rear looks like a number of cars, Hyundai XG, BMW 7-series, the rear of the BMW 6-series has been compared to the old Chrysler Cirrus. And the rear of the LS430 looks a bit like the S-class. big deal. What else can you come up with besides the LS430 and MR2? Nothing?

    What is the ES a knock-off of?(I know you won't have a answer so you'll come up with that lame statement "it's ugly").
    How about a RX330?
    LX470?
    GX470?
    GS300/430?
    SC430?
    IS300?
    Celica?
    Tundra?
    Camry?
    Avalon?
    Corolla?
    Tacoma?
    Solara?
    xA
    xB
    tC????
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Hey - Chaz lives in my town. Supposedly he's a great guy. I haven't seen analyze that as yet. He was great in "the usual suspects" as well.

    Hey what happened to audibob?? "I think someone fell off of the roof".
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    First of all I never said that every Lexus was a copy of a Benz. Never said any such thing. I said the LS was.

    2-3 out of 20 may be nothing to you (obviously) but it proves my point, which was that Toyota is in no postion to sue anyone over styling issues. Like their styling is unique compared to the Koreans. Nobody said their whole lineup was guilty of anything so your pointless challenges are just that, pointless. You proved my point a few posts ago, there exists some Toyota knock-offs. End of story.

    I ascribe your dismissal of a car like the ES330 being ugly because that is what your fav specializes in. Comes with the job.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I didn't prove your point at all.

    You said Toyota knocks off cars like the Koreans, which I basically shot down.

    If a car has similar styling cues it does not make it a knock-off. Otherwise we could say Benz is a knock-off also, so is BMW, Infiniti, etc.

    "I ascribe your dismissal of a car like the ES330 being ugly because that is what your fav specializes in. Comes with the job. "

    Typical merc1, trying to spin things around. I didn't say it was ugly, you have said that before when I shot down your statement which went something like "Lexus copies Benz styling" and you basically couldn't back it up so you resort to the ES is ugly.

    So far I don't even see 2-3 knockoffs. Do you? In fact I see 0.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I think I tend to agree with Max on this one, Toyota is not on the same page as Hynudai\Kia, where pretty much EVERY SINGLE CAR looks a little too close to a European or Japanese car, though Kia is the worst offender.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Nobody said their [Toyota] whole lineup was guilty of anything..."

    Well allow me to be the first. With the exception of trucks, vans and the MR2. Their whole styling lineup sucks more than anything has sucked before. Of course the exception is the Bangle lineup with which they are probably dead equal.

    Ljflx... did you see A Bronx Tale? That's the movie that made Chazz. I think he wrote it. Also it was DeNiro who recognized his talent and was heavily involved in producing/promoting it.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    This is a recall that involves 13,000 2004 LS430's that will get new transmissions.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Of course the exception is the Bangle lineup with which they are probably dead equal."

    Not even close. I can't wait to get my 2005 Bangled 3-series with the 333-hp engine.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    What does sucky styling have to do with the term "knock-off"?

    And seriously, I don't see where their car line-up is that sucky in terms of styling compared to other mainstream brands at similar price points.

    The only Toyota that I find really ugly is the Avalon.

    The Camry may be blah but definately not ugly in it's class, especially when you compare it to the Malibu.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Livinbmw,

      That recall includes replacement of the Fuel Pump as well. Apparently to soften the blow they're providing a $200 Gas card..(That's secondhand info from the Lexus owners forum)..This underscores my point about the LS quality slipping on absolute terms. I definitely feel this car is not as good as original LS400's in build quality.I've heard my dealer service consulant lament this many times...I think Lexus along with other manufacturers are too busy cramming pointless electronics into these cars..

    I don't have much use for most of these toys as I feel they distract from the driving experience..Also they affect the durability of the car..I sincerely doubt a LS430 can go 12 yrs trouble free with all the electronic gimmicks it's crammed with..

    I think have to agree with Merc...The current LS is a shameless copy of the older S Class..The resemblance is clearly there..Their styling has become more unoriginal as time goes on. Maybe 2006 will bring something better.

    I find myself more willing to trade some of the Lexus reliability for something that's sleeker and more original in design. Frankly I'm quite disappointed with this LS430..Mine is only two years old and the design hasn't aged well at all..The paint chips way too easily despite being waxed 4 times a year..I've also had to have the rain sensor replaced 3 times and the steering column motor replaced.. I never had any of these problems with my prior LS cars. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but perhaps part of a growing one. I've owned enough LS cars long term to have the experience to comment on this..

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The LS recalls are for cars made up to January. I escaped this as my car was produced in February.

    The site below is a good check for recalls. The LS is the only Lexus under a recall right now. Just about every BMW (somethin livinbmw didn't point out) and every MB model is currently under a recall.

    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.c- - - fm

    designman - saw it. He's an excellent actor. I'm also a big Deniro fan. The guy can be an excellent dramtical actor and at the same time has a great delivery for comedy. Deniro did a lot of charity work post 9/11 and lives in Tribeca.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Just about every BMW (somethin livinbmw didn't point out)" Well obviously. This is a guy that loves even the 7, and as bad as the LS is supposedly getting, I guess from #1 in the segment to.. slightly less #1...touting the 7s reliability over LS is laughable. Especially the 740i, what a junker that was.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    RAV4
    Previa
    echo
    Paseo

    Previa is by far the ugliest.........
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Just about all the BMWs except the 3 series.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    All of them. No that's not fair. They aren't ugly, they are blah. The new style of BMW may polarize people, but at least they are handsomely athletic.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    740 a "junker"? Junker?

    All guys don't buy "penthouse" type vehicles with reliability as the key motive. In fact, the ones that are willing to pay more for the 'bimmer would probably contend that there buying motives are met by the seven's road manners and over-all ride and drive qualities. Maybe, that's why they sell for more....because the driver after reliability and return on the precious dollar is willing to pay less than the guy that just wants a great driving car that he feels great about.

    I think that just about anyone that really has a lick of sense about vehicles would not contend that BMW builds any "junk" but you've pulled it off and sound brilliant in such a bold statement, truly brilliant.

    I hope that you're not one of those 13,000 customers that have to deal with transmission recall on the '04 LS. What a shame. Shame on TOYOTA.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    As usual, you're posting funny stuff.

    Remember when BMW had all of those failed 7-series 4.0L V8s that they had to replace for customers?

    Let's not forget Lexus is still #1 in quality and reliability. How many years in a row was that?

    BTW, you think the LS430's lower price has anything to do with prestige? Have you also noticed how much it's price has gone up in 15 years vs. how much the 7-series price has gone up? The LS400 used to be $40K, now it reaches $70K. the 2000 LS400 topped out at $60K, and yet this more expensive LS430 can be decked out to $70K+ and is selling alot better than the 2nd gen. LS400. I bet the next generation LS will be even closer in price to the 7-series and still sell well.

    The Paseo and PRevia. wow! coming up with ugly Toyotas from a decade ago! You're staying current!

    How about those Bangled BMW's that soo many people think are ugly. Amazing how BMW can do no wrong yet everyone else can.

    And it is quite obvious not everyone is looking for performance as much as you like to point out. How many people actually buy a BMW for it's handling prowess or steering feel? I bet you not that percentage is nowhere near 100%.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Come on folks - this discussion is supposed to be about the marques. Can't we just talk about what we like about what they are doing and what we wish they would do better?

    There isn't any reason for this conversation to continually devolve into this petty "my brand is better than your brand, so there" conversation. There are plenty of places all over the Town Hall where that kind of conversation goes on all the time.

    This discussion was always supposed to be on a higher level than that. Can we try to get back there?

    I challenge all of you to name one thing about the brand of your heart that you wish would be done better. And then pick another brand that you really would not choose in your heart of hearts and name one thing you like that it does. And then maybe really discuss differing opinions - listen, think and respond thoughtfully and respectfully without the knee-jerk antagonistic stuff that keeps overtaking us.

    Give it a try. Let's get this conversation onto a different path; one that is rewarding and productive. Work with me here. Go to another more appropriate discussion for the head-butting, okay?
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    one thing that I don't like about BMW.....hmmmm Cupholders are bad..... the batteries seem too be not to good...... I don't like that the 3 series coupes do not have full frame windows on the doors. That really bugs me.

    One thing that I do like that Lexus does is the touch screens for the Nav.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Thanks from me too. After all, we're not married to these automakers or their products. Or are we? Is there some autoeroticism going on here?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Good start - I've heard/read that about BMWs cupholders for a long time. Of course the theory is that only Americans care about eating and drinking in their cars. I object to that. I am an American and I would not THINK of letting anyone eat or drink in my car and could care less about the cupholders! :)

    I've seen criticisms of other vehicles for not having the full-framed windows. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that true of the ES 300/330? Is this a function of the lower end vehicle of the upper end marque, seems like it might be. I don't like it either.

    What's with the batteries?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Do you watch "Everybody loves Raymond"? Brad Gilbert is the closest thing I've seen to Jackie Gleason. No one can ever duplicate those great Honeymooner expressions he had but Brad has some great ones of his own.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "I challenge all of you to name one thing about the brand of your heart that you wish would be done better. And then pick another brand that you really would not choose in your heart of hearts and name one thing you like that it does.

    Hmmm..that would be Mercedes-Benz of course, reliability being the thing I wish they did better.

    Lexus is the one I wouldn't choose and about the only the I did admire about them is their stellar reliability record.

    M
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    lEXUS IS THE BEST LUXURY SEDAN IN THE WORLD...It would be even better however if it had all wheel drive.

    Mercedes is the most overated car in the world, but it is pretty, and their string around the finger aren't I pretty commerical is very nice. They also deserve credit for their many safety innovations in years past.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I surely like the German ads better than the Asian ones...I also think the Chrysler 300 is quite appealing (only seen it on the outside)Furthermore , as we own both brands, they both break, usually electrical...Furthermore I like to hear(read) all the different opinions even if I disagree. Tony
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I think the Lexus should be worried with Mercedes stating to improve quality. BMW should make as bold a statement as that. The only thing the Japanese have over the Germans is reliability, but my experience with Japanese cars is they are similiar to German in build quality and reliability but don't have that drivers feel.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    For some reason, BMW 5 series and 7 series sales really slumped in July.

    - 5 series -
    July 2003: 5313
    July 2004: 2668

    - 7 series -
    July 2003: 1595
    July 2004: 876

    Those are pretty steep losses. Especially for the 5 series, a 50% drop in July sales is pretty significant. All the more considering that the 5 is a NEW model. And the new M, GS, RL, A6, and STS haven't even come out yet!

    Maybe it's a one time blip, I don't know. Hopefully it'll force BMW to reconsider its pricing strategy.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    I wish Mercedes would get it's act together, and produce cars with at least equal quality of the Japanese. Autoweek has an article about a new quality offensive Jurgen Hubbert has set up. Here is the link if you want to read it.

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05810537

    I admire Toyota for taking a huge chance on Lexus and succeeding thouroughly. Lexus totally changed the Luxury car market.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Racked up $2.6bln net profit in the first quarter - up 29% from a year ago - even in the face of a currency rate going against them. Vehicle sales up in every world market and skyrocketing in Asia. Those ugly cars have one heck of a market. Sometimes people on this board remind me of movie critics that deadpan movies that make $500mln. but love the ones that make $25mln. Who's really got it right.

    Kdshapiro - saying you are going to improve quality and accomplishing it are two different things. The way they said it had a bit too much of a marketing ring to me. They also said they were going to do something about quality a year ago (someone lower in the command chain said it) and quality worsened. Common sense tells me that with Toyota projecting to rack up $13bln (probably conservative) in profits this fiscal year, with Lexus widening its US sales lead while raising prices, with rapid Asian gains and with new hybrid engines around the corner that will revolutionalize the lux segment - MB and the Germans are probably a lot more worried about Lexus than vice-versa. I would be if I were them as would any responsible business person. Toyota is a juggernaut right now - rolling over everything in front of it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Wish Toyota would buy Microsoft… then we would have ugly computers that work seamlessly.

    I don't watch sitcoms. They all seem the same to me… templated formula for comedy. Also, I can't stomach the canned laughter with its repetitious predictable rhythm. Honeymooners were recorded in front of live audiences and were frequently ad libbed… like when Ralph went to the masquerade party as the Man From Space and his "denaturizer " button fell off that hilariously cobbled costume. I guess sitcom creators use the Comedy Wizard in the MS Office suite ;-)

    kd... we have Bud Light etc. and are now entering the era of Bangle Light.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Of course Mercedes will get it's act together. They have to. Their recent quality and reliability slips are showing in their sales and subsequently advertising.

    Notice how all of a sudden Mercedes is showing advertisments touting how many cars this person has had and that person has had and how many miles people have.

    They still make some excellent cars, but them improving quality would only make the market that much more competitive which is good for everyone.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Huh...you do realize Dell, HP, make computers not Microsoft.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I noticed the BMW numbers also for the 5-series especially. I wonder what's up with that. They were down drastically for the month, might just be some production issues due to end of model year.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Just picked up my new LS430 with Mod Lux and smart key. I had been leaning toward S430 4Matic as I prefer its looks and am actually a bit bias toward German type ride but in the end could not justify 350-400 per month difference on lease. MB was giving great factory incentive of 6K back and the dealers are selling at invoice but the lease is not as attractive and the car still sells for about 10K more in the market place.

    I think I got a good deal at end of month on LS (about 6500 off).

    I am Very happy with my choice. I really wanted Blue Tooth, and the ML system and those 2 items alone make the Lexus the clear winner for me.

    I was able to down load my phone book from my Sony Ericsson phone in about 3 minutes once we figured it out (call customer care from Sony if you need help). I bit the bullet and went for the factory installed Sat. Radio which is too expensive but my 20 year old son said it best, "This is awesome!"

    The ride is sublime and the acceleration is terrific.

    The dealer was not what a luxury experience should be about, however. The negotiations were "old school" meaning full of voodoo numbers and old tricks ("we made a mistake on the calculation, you must take delivery by tomorrow"), high pressure tactics, double teaming etc. Very disappointing I almost walked but it was the car I wanted, so I bit the bullet. Next time I will not even enter a dealership to purchase a Lexus but do all via phone and fax. BMW and MB were much nicer experiences.

      Same with delivery experience. Sat radio was not activated by dealer and when I called to do so was told that dealer needs to do it so that I can save on activation fee and free first month. No luxury aspect in picking up car. Just sat in lot with salesperson and he went over car with me. They were delivering many cars that day and it was a bit stressfull as they were running way behind schedule and I had to wait a bit. We did not finish and I had to go back the next day.

    But love the car so far.

    One thing I don't understand is the shift options.
    If you put the button in power mode does that hold the gears longer for a sporty type of drive?
    By putting lever to left I know you can "manually shift" but I don't really get how the ranges (1-6) work or why and when you'd use).
    With gear shift lever to right (normal position) will the car use gears 1-6?

      Maybe someone can explain better than the manual.

    Thanks for everyone's help and input in the past which was useful information in making my decision to "join the club".
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Oh jeez, sue me on a trivial debatable point. Yes, I could have phrased it another way. I think you know what I mean though. Actually, I would never argue with my editors on that one. Good point. :-)
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