High End Luxury Cars

footie · October 2004

We've got a 1990 Acura Legend Coupe L sitting in the garage. I can't figure out just what luxury touches it was missing that made it fall "far short" of the brands we normally talk about here?

I went looking for something comparable from the MB carline back then. Maybe the 300CE Coupe? It's not any more luxurious inside than the Legend except for the plastic looking wood trim on the dash here and there. That is more than offset by the wonderful leather in the Legend, the self-presenting seat belts, and a much more complete instrument cluster.

And of course, our Legend has an excellent Honda 2.7 Liter V6 with 160 hp and 162 ftlb of torque coupled to a 4sp auto. It is very spirited performance wise, even though it weighs almost 4300 pounds (about 800 more than the 300CE ). The chassis stiffness is high and it's road manners are fluid and refined.

When I look at the early 300's, the fit and finish isn't superior to the Acura - MB was already heading into it's terrible 90's quality phase.

Of course, the Mercedes had a 'luxury price' - the 300ce was $57K -- more that 2x the fully equipped Legend L coupe with leather.

Just my standard beef here. Price doesn't make a car a luxury car in anyone's minds but the sales guys and their fish.

kyfdx · October 2004

umm.. not going to disagree with any of that, except...

No way that Acura weighs 4300 pounds..

kyfdx · October 2004

'90 Acura Legend Coupe..

Curb weight: 3170 Lbs.

scottphillip · October 2004

I am actually cross-shopping an E-500 and a Honda Odyssey Touring minivan. The van ($38.8) has voice-activated navigation and 9" DVD, power doors, pedals, and rear hatch. So far, I haven't been able to find any good comparison articles.

davieboy1 · October 2004

Has anybody had an intermittent buzzing from the speakers of a 2003 745i. I have had this car in the shop twice with at first a constant and now an intermittent buzzing in the left sided speakers even when the radio is off. First time a software upgrade and replace a part. Second time replace amplifier and reprogram. Now they suggest I just watch it for a while. Thanks

scottphillip · October 2004

I suggest a can of Raid.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

footie · October 2004

You are all right about the weight. Sorry, I don't know where I got that number!

footie

ljflx · October 2004

footie - I'm comparing top end Acura (Legend before, RL now) to the S-class, LS430, 7-series, A8 etc. That's where it falls short. Most certainly it can compare and compete with the E, GS, 5-series etc. I had 91 and 93 Legends (wasn't the Legend bigger body new style a 91 model and before that it was the smaller boxier car?) and loved them both. Exceptionally reliable cars. Like my 1995 LS430, the 93 Legend I had was eventually sold to a friend who put more than 250K trouble free miles on it before "totalling" it. My 95 LS400 which is in the hands of another friend (both of these guys are travelling sales people) will reach 300K miles by year end (mainly highway) and is still a great car. The Japanese know how to build them - that's for sure.

davieboy1 · October 2004

Thanks
Unfortunately that may be the best we can do. Sure is cheaper than service costs.

designman · October 2004

"I'm comparing top end Acura (Legend before, RL now) to the S-class, LS430, 7-series, A8 etc. That's where it falls short."

If power is a priority then sure it falls short. But it's right up there with luxury amenities. Pure luxury starts with plush, cushy, quiet, rife with features. On the high end throw in enough room for people who've had one Sicilian slice too many. It's there and power is adequate. It gets the short end of the stick because we are in the throes of a power war and consciousness.

Keep an eye on this new AWD system. AWD is nothing new but regardless it is still in it's infancy. What will distinguish it in the future is performance. The real legacy of electronics in cars is performance-enhancing electronics. In the animal kingdom four-legged creatures outperform their two-legged counterparts by a wide margin. The task for engineers is to figure out how to efficiently apply and optimize power to four wheels in a similar manner, a fairly complex collaboration among engineering disciplines and one which does not lend itself to immediacy. But when people start to notice AWD in warm climates you'll know it has really arrived. The RL could be the first of significant steps forward in this area. This is an innovative move.

As much as I consider the RL a high end luxury car, I will admit wondering why Acura doesn't answer the V8 call just on the principle of demand which I believe starts with bandwagon luxury buyers buying into the beating the RL relentlessly takes on this issue in the press. Too much attention is paid to categories. But it could behoove them financially if they just acquiesce, losing the tweener image in the process and beating the "big boys" at their own game. They certainly appear have the ability and marketing savvy but with the RL and NSX you have to scratch your head at times.

footie · October 2004

No one really 'wants' a V8, even though lots of people get 'sold' a V8.

V8's are history. They really aren't needed and with gas headed towards European pricing, who the heck wants to pay more (unless you really are a GWB birdbrain) to get the same as what you can get with a V6.

kdshapiro · October 2004

Saying a V6 can get you a V8, is like saying a turbo 4 is exactly the same as V6. Nobody *really* needs a V6 either. And with gas heading toward Europeans pricing, only the wealthy will be able to afford the gas for a V6.

kyfdx · October 2004

No V-6s for me, thanks..

michael_mattox · October 2004

Footie:

If you can't afford the gas then you shouldn't buy an Ultra Lux car.

If you can afford the gas but think it is your civic or moral duty to own a more fuel efficent car buy a hybred.

I want a V8...The wonderfull thing is I live in American where I can get one...and There is a difference between a V8 and 6...No matter the HP.

A proud GWB Compassionate Conservative.

designman · October 2004

Lots of creative thinking going on of late. First Mercedes is not a high-end marque, then V8s are history. In another thread someone said the Cayenne outperforms the Boxster S and yet another that there is no such thing as car platforms. Next thing you know someone is going to say the curse is over and the Sox will win the WS. Hows this for a creative concept on a day when New York is undergoing a reality check go Jets!

;-)

kdshapiro · October 2004

Hmm. V8s maybe history, but there is a healthy market for V10s and V12s. I'll take my V8 without salt thank you.

Good thing the Yanks won.

ljflx · October 2004

Don't include me on your list. Once you have a V8 that's what you want. Don't know where you get your data from but everyone I know wants a V8 in a premium lux sedan. It's one of the reasons I stopped buying Acuras. You could feel the difference between a Legend and an LS400 within seconds of stepping on the gas. On top of that there isn't much difference between the MPG I get in an LS430 and what a 6cyl ES330 gets. If gas price goes up another 40% (Europe gas itself is actually cheaper than here because of the weak dollar - worldwide oil is priced in the US dollar not in local currency - it's taxes that are the problem there) what's the big deal to a lux car buyer. He'll pay an extra $600 more annually on a car that sells for $60K+ and leases for a nearly a grand or more a month. It's simply not an issue and unless there is an illegal coalition by the auto mfrs or a worldwide government action there will always be plenty of demand for V8's. When the hybrids arrive your gas mileage argument really becomes a thing of the past and power will be all the more the rage. Lexus is already planning a real powerful V8 hybrid in 2006/7 that will rival current V12's and get 50 mpg.

pat · October 2004

before the couple of "GWB" comments encourage more of the same in response - this is not the place for them.

Thanks.

kdshapiro · October 2004

The new M5 goes to 60 in under 4. So Lexus will have a car that beats the new M5, will hold it's own on the racetrack, and gets 50 mpg. I'll believe it when it happens.

ljflx · October 2004

I'm afraid you are going to have to believe it in a few years but it's the LS that will be the car not an M5 competitor. This was announced a while back and was referenced many times. Toyota is way beyond everyone in hybrid technology and has patents galore.

kdshapiro · October 2004

Like I said, I'll believe it when it happens. Until the rubber meets the road, it's just prognostications.

pablo_l · October 2004

My favorite engine is a 2 cylinder boxer engine. It's torquey and unique, and has the best engine note with an aftermarket exhaust. And will do 0-60 in way less than 4 seconds. For $16k. Buy a bike if you want true exitement. I have since I turned 15. No car will ever remotely rival a motorcycle in performance, I find it bizarre anyone looking for "exhilaration" would try to find it in a luxury sedan, but then again that is just me.

On the V8 note - I thought the supercharged V8 in my XJR was very nice, but know for a fact the I6 in my XJS was smoother, power deficit and all. I wish I'd never traded the XJS for the XJR, biggest mistake ever in my car decision history. I never quite felt the performance sedan thing. I6 and V12 are smoother engines by their engineering nature than a V8, and thus seem better choices for a luxury sedan than a V8, but then again peer pressure rules. Fact is V8s are not naturally balanced, thus the coarse note at high revs - but people as a whole seem to like that element of coarseness, just don't claim they're smoother luxury engines, because it has absolutely no engineering basis.

footie · October 2004

Hi Michael,

Is "hybred" supposed to be a genetic pun or something?

Of course trying to spell things these days that are regularly mispronounced by our leedership or Fox TV talking heads is "day-rig-your" as they say over in Franse.

designman · October 2004

Kdshapiro BMW claims 4.7 secs with the M5. They are anticipating lower in actually testing. Mercedes claims 4.5 with the E55 and Motor Trend had it at 4.2. You have dig deep into your pocket to get under 4.0 on four wheels.

Pablo... I agree that bikes are up there with the exhilaration factor. I nearly exhilarated myself into the grave in college and gave them up forever. These squids on bikes today are absolutely nuts. One of them came upside my Boxster standing on his pegs and pumping the throttle. I nodded sarcastically and mouthed yeah right to him. He took off and had to be doing 130 standing up. Im thinking good luck pal and may God be with you.

No doubt these are innovative and exciting times with Hybrid, CVT and AWD technology. I believe there will be deliverance and there already is even if we await nobler performance. However as a consumer I proceed with caution. We pay for the industrial learning curve with technology. When it becomes day-rig-oor as footie says then I would be apt to jump in. My concerns are early maintenance headaches, high prices, longevity and resale. History has proven that Day 1 is not the most efficient time to jump into products that are based on new tech.

That said, the promise of hybrid is incredible and it appears it will turn everything we know about performance and efficiency upside down. What I also like about this is that it is firmly grounded in the mechanical world which of late has been perceived as old-fashioned. Sure these cars will be rolling computers and all of this could not be achieved without digital application, but it is a breath of fresh air to see advances in technology that do not exist purely in the ether.

Ljflx do you have designs on that first hybrid LS? If I had my own business and could write off a lease I might be tempted. I only hope that they also nail the styling. Would be a shame if it comes out looking like the GS.

kdshapiro · October 2004

The new M5 has been estimated to hit sixty under 4 seconds and is built to run on the racetrack. Saying the new LS will beat these specs one off is one thing, saying it will run on the track with the crowd is quite another.

The new hybrid Accord at 255 horses hits 60 in 7.5 seconds, check out edmunds review. And while you have to pay $4K extra to get the 255 horses over the standard Accord, you get better fuel economy. Whether you believe you will save $4000 dollars in fuel over the life of the car is up to you to decide.

kyfdx · October 2004

Only 507 HP..

Do you really think that Lexus will have anything to match that? Or will even want to? That isn't their strength, and to date, they haven't attempted anything in that market..

I just don't see any LS buyers clamoring for an M5 beater.. Plus, they wouldn't like the ride..

designman · October 2004

Man, talk about digression. I don't know how the M5 even comes into the picture when dicussing hybrids and Lexus at this point. The new M5 is wa-a-a-y opposite of real-world luxury performance. No sir, with those torque/hp curves its a track car as you alluded to and not well-spent street money.

I see no reason to knock the hybrid venture. This is technology that is beneficial on many levels and performance is one of them, not just the greening of the world. Its a story of more-for-less and this is the MO that built the industrial revolution and the world.

michael_mattox · October 2004

FOOTIE

MARK TWAIN once said "I have no respect for any man who can only spell a word one way"

Albert Einstien spelled worse then I do...

When I worked I had employees who could spell..Now I don't care as long as I can get the message across.

designman · October 2004

Excellent point Michael. Doctors are notoriously poor spellers. And if a man can get elected to be President of the US talking about nuke-u-lar arms, well, that says it all. By the way, this pronunciation of nuclear is now sanctioned by Webster's. Now, back to talking about Lexus, Mercedes, Jag-you-are and BMdubya.

ljflx · October 2004

I think Motor Trend had sketches of the next LS several months ago and it looked awesome and much more athletic and sporty.

What is the big deal with HP? Lexus has already announced a 600HP Hybrid for a 2007 LS model - they just had no intention to join the HP wars with gas engines as the hybrids are on the brink. They even said the price of this V12 equiv. LS will be around $100K. Toyota has shown a supercar (sportscar) that will most certainly be badged as a Lexus and will probably have that same engine and a $150K pricetag. The world's about to change. The hybrid engines bring power, great fuel efficiency, less dependency on the middle east and much cleaner air. You'd have to be nuts not to want them to happen. The moment production levels increase the prices will drop (like new tech always does) and more closely approximate gas cars.

oac · October 2004

My earlier comment on MB as a car mass-marketer rather than a pure luxury car maker may be, shall I say, too graphic, eh ! So I'll back off and re-phrase as follows:

MB is a world mass-marketer in fine automobiles, but positions itself as a luxury car marker in the all-important NA market, a "fact" that is clearly in dispute since they (MB) have only led luxury car sales once in known recorded surveys. I use "sales" here to demarcate pure luxury car makers - Bentleys, RR, AM, etc... where sales # are not the bench-mark of prestige, versus MB that uses prestige to hoodwink the buying NA public into what it is not.

Just had my very first drive in my friend's 330ci. What a car ??? I am a convert, pure and simple. That inline-6 motor is just unbelievable !!!! Maybe it was the additional 1" lowering on the car, but I swear taking curves at 80mph had absolutely no roll, and I took these corners real hard.... Rode around in the sport mode, handling was crisp, not Lexus-like, but darn great, I must say. What a difference ??? I am a believer in the BMW hype !!!! OTOH, the 5-series did nothing to move me when I had extensive drives in it, but this 330 is just absolute dynamite. I told my wife, that WILL be my next car, hopefully before the 2006/07 new LS comes out. I'm gonna get a slightly used 330ci (no Bangle-ised version for me) next year and get rid of my little Trix. And then by late 2006, I'll be waiting in line for the new LS.

Toyota/Lexus' is going to make a killing with their hybrid technologies. With oil prices nudging close to the $60 mark, who is to say we won't see a $100/barrell of oil within a year or two ? Hello China (slow down your growth a tad, will ya?) ???? Just about timeframe when Toyota/Lexus's stable of hybrid cars/trucks are entrenched in the market. The hybrid Toyota Sequoia is scheduled for 2006, the hybrid Highlander for 2005, and the hybrid RX due anytime from now. The new LS-H will probably come to the US by 2007, and maybe the GS-H or IS-H will be here earlier than these time lines.... Of course, Nissan, Ford and to a lesser extent GM will follow Toyota/Lexus, but at a very distant position.

An investment tip (unsolicited, so pls ignore): may be a safe bet buying TM right about now... check it out for yourself at http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TM&t=2y

syswei · October 2004

Interesting tidbit from Automotive News: "Porsche may build a hybrid version of its Cayenne SUV using a Toyota powertrain, a Porsche source says. Toyota and the German carmaker would adapt the gasoline-electric powertrain to be used in the Lexus RX 400h."

maxhonda99 · October 2004

I don't think the Porsche Cayenne using a full Toyota engine/hybrid system will end up making it.
One would think Porsche fanatics will end up crucify Porsche if they did that! More likely would probably be adapting the Toyota hybrid technology for their existing engines.

But, hey, you never know.

ljflx · October 2004

They seem to be working together more and more.
What is going on?

maxhonda99 · October 2004

ljflx,

What else have they worked on or are working on together?

pablo_l · October 2004

2 things: I think about Mercedes positioning *itself* as a pure luxury car maker... that is your personal perception. MB doesn't do much about it, for some reason they do have that image of exclusivity in NA despite the fact that, indeed, their reality isn't different from others. I am not saying it's justified, all I was saying is that product strategy wise they're no different from the other brands you mentioned. And their brand equity is undeniable according to brand experts. We have repeatedly talked about the fact that MB will in the end dilute the brand image over time with their current strategy.

Second of all, I fully agree with you on the 330. I have said before that in my opinion the 330 might very well be the best car on the planet in rational terms: it's built in such quantities that every kink in its armor gets ironed out over time, and BMW's 3 liter inline 6 to me is the best engine other than some 12 cylinder exotics in the car world. It's turbine smooth (more so that any V8, really) and torquey, and a perfect match for the 3 series weight. The only problem I had with picking a 330, which I was 5 minutes away from doing, was the fact that they're *everywhere* in the Bay Area. Phenomenal car, but as I have said before, it's a bit like an amazingly gorgeous girl that's slept with everybody you know - she's still gorgeous, but the desirability suffers some. :-)

ljflx · October 2004

Toyota people helped then deploy Toyota TPS and Porsche quality improved as a result and Porsche worked with Lexus on the new GS' handling.

ljflx · October 2004

Can't agree with you on that one Pablo. They market status and exclusivity in the US at every turn. Did you see anybody that wasn't a celebrity on those commercials touting star (sports, TV, movies, whatever) ownership of MB's?

pablo_l · October 2004

Most of the ads I have seen focus on everyday people loving their Benz through the ages. I just went to their website, and the "Love Mercedes" theme seems the over-reaching one. And then some safety element, with the usual peacefully asleep infant sitting in the back of a nice car (which made me fondly remember my Dad screaming at me to stay awake and look out of the window, because I'd barf like a dog if I fell asleep on the curvy road home). I do recall the ad campaign you mention, but I seem to recall it was rather short lived. My impression is other brands rely ont he celebrity endorsement far more than MB does. Perhaps a shift in marketing strategy? Luxury, but not snobbishly superficial and unapproachable?

ljflx · October 2004

The end must be near for the Phaeton. Saw an ad in Wednesdays NY Times special auto section in rather large print. The $67K Phaeton "special lease" at $499 per month for 3 years but only 10K miles per year. I'm sure you'll have no problem upping that mileage to 12K or 15K in negotiation. Heck I'd feel guilty negotiating a price lower than that $499 per month. No driveaway costs other than registration fees. No bank application fee, nothing down, no security etc. Residual is $35K but who in their right mind will buyout this car after 3 years unless it has value of a different nature. But do the math - the car amortizes $32K officially (more than likely the $35K residual is $10K+ overstated) and your cost is only 60% of the depreciation. If I needed a third car right now even I would lease that car at that price. There's no risk unless the car is a lemon and the laws protect you on that. What a bath VW is taking on that car. But if you are speculative and you lease, who knows - the car may have its greatest value as a collectors item if it turns out to be a one year model. Than the $35K residual may be a bargain. They certainly are rare. I've seen one so far and mistook it for a Passat until I got close enough to see it was too large.

I have to wonder if this VW stupidity on the Phaeton will drag down the A8 with it since, for all intent and purposes, they are the same car.

RX and Cayenne working together - an interesting link is posted over on "German carmakers - starting to make critical mistakes" on news and views. It would be hard for a lot of people to swallow but it makes great strategic business sense for large and powerful Toyota to acquire small and highly successful Porsche. A win-win situation all around but it would be impossible for Porsche lovers to digest in their lifetime. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it happens in the next 5 years. Porsche almost died 10 years ago and really should be a product line of a giant. In that way you can preserve Porsche as a pure sportscar and use the expertise on the main line of cars and suv's the giant offers. Porsche as nothing but a sportscar is what Porsche lovers want. But Porsche as nothing but a sportscar is a bad and risky business strategy in this technology age, which is why you have the Cayenne; and it's why you will eventually have other Porsche models the brotherhood won't be happy about. The more I think about it the more I realize a takeout by Toyota is a no-brainer.

pablo_l · October 2004

Wow, nice (for a prospective buyer, a nightmare if you're the product manager). I have not been able to locate that deal in California, but I am certainly interested.

ljflx · October 2004

It's definitely a VW deal but maybe its regionalized instead of national. They can't seem to sell these here at all. Last month there were $599 leases advertised and before that $649 ones. At some pricepoint they have to get some interest and move. The car is certainly a greater value than that price. I don't get the Edmunds TMV on this car at all. It says it's selling for list in my zipcode when they are advertised at $12-15K off list before you even start to negotiate.

VW should take the price out of its mag ads. I saw an ad recently that showed the car with a noted starting price at $66,400. The ad didn't even show a decent close-up of the car. That price is keeping people away rendering the ad useless anyway. It really is throwing ad money away since the cars are selling way below the price advertised. Just take the price out and replace it with something like "special price packages for a limited time - see your VW dealer". Someone at VW is really asleep at the wheel or maybe they just don't give a damm anymore about this car.

Kirstie_H · October 2004

For an upcoming article, one of our editors is looking to correspond with women executives about what they drive  or wish they did  and why. If youve got an opinion, please email Joanne Helperin, using execs in the subject line, at jhelperin@edmunds.com

motownusa · October 2004

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041030/bs_afp/- japan_auto_toyota_gm_us_company_041030084924

Toyota could take the number 1 spot away from GM in 2006. That would be amazing.

designman · October 2004

I like how we just went from crucifying six cylinder engines based on torque to showing interest in a mediocre V8 that propels 5200 pounds. The V8 Phaeton weighs nearly 1000 pounds more than the LS430 yet the LS has 3 lb-ft more torque. Reviews have the LS at around .8 seconds faster to 60 but I have to believe it is morethats a serious weight difference. But I guess the other aspects of luxury at a bargain price are enought to raise an eyebrow.

Anyway, I stopped by VW yesterday to check out the situation. They quoted a lease price of $599/10k. I told the salesperson that I heard prices were lower without specifically inquiring about the above mentioned $499 deal. Then he volunteered that there was a price of $499 advertised in New Jersey but that it was a mistake said they received several calls inquiring about it. They only had one W12 and one V8 (sold) in stock. When questioning why there were so few he said that people were starting to discover it and that the 05s were due soon. In any event, they werent at all anxious for a sale. Lastly, Ive read about prices going as low as $16,700 below MSRP, also that VW was inviting owners of MB, Jag and BMW to drive it for 48 hours.

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101091

BTW, if this car bites the dust early I believe it has no chance of maintaining any significant collector value. As far as I know it just doesnt happen with sedans. And if it does, you will not know it for many years to come. Will be interesting to see where the bottom is if it keels over.

Too bad about VW and their mess because I think they have some of the best all-around stylingthey arent knockouts but are simple, streamlined, and nonsense-free, both inside and out. However, I find the Phaeton interior to be banalthe dash is too flat and square... milled, not sculpted.

Someone at VW is really asleep at the wheel or maybe they just don't give a damm anymore about this car.

Agree. Or maybe they are just not adept at marketing. Or maybe Pischetsrieder cant bond with Phaeton because it is his stepson. Or maybe he knows it is inherently doomed so he's just helping to euthanize it. Actually, I dont think it is doomed just by way of being a Volkswagen. I think perhaps they just never had good marketing plan and that Piech, Pischetsrieder or both could have been a bit reckless with the vision and less than thorough in implementing it.

oac · October 2004

Designman: First you express the sentiment that "Actually, I dont think it is doomed just by way of being a Volkswagen"

And then conclude by saying this: "..... a bit reckless with the vision and less than thorough in implementing it."

Methinks you are too optimistic for VW and their Phaeton mis-adventure. Here is a contrarian view (surprise, surprise): Anyway you look at it, a $70K-90K VW (V8 and W12 trims) is both a "Reckless vision" as well as a "blurred vision". How can anyone imagine this can be anything but a disaster ??? What should we think of Audi and its Phaeton cousin/brother/stepbrother/ or what ??? And why should there be an Audi division if VW can sell cars in this price range ? I mean, how do you go from a VW Bug to a Phaeton ???

What-were-they-thinking?????

But I have to agree with you on one point. The Phaeton won't be a collector's item. That will be too good for it. Rather it should go the way of other ill-conceived and poorly executed automobiles (and there are a lot that fits this category), a simple blip which will be no more than a footnote when the history of VW is written.... As a long-term resident of this car and status-conscious San Diego, a city of 3 million-ish residents, I have never seen a Phaeton on any roads out here... Do they exist here ? Maybe. Rather, I have seen quite a few Touaregs in town here (mostly the slower V6 trims)

designman · November 2004

Oac, I find it ironic how Toureg, a luxury truck, can succeed as a peoples car. I guess Cayenne is a peoples car too. Its funny, when money falls from the skies you lose that branding act real fast. You just forget about who you are, drop what youre doing, get on your knees and scrape it up as fast as you can.

Theres not the same demand in the high-end luxury segment and plenty of competition to begin with, so you had better have a good plan. When you forecast sales of 5000 units and come up with 1000, thats reckless. You see dreamers in small business doing this. If they wanted to reverse that peoples car image they could but for heavenss sake, how about a plan? In my opinion this case has little to do with the brand and everything to do with demand and marketing skills. Piech has been described as a megalomaniacreckless. And Pischetsrieder was TOTALLY irresponsible by criticizing the Phaeton concept not long after it was launched when the shelves were fully stockedreckless.

In the 50s Made in Japan meant it was as cheap as it could get. Shortly thereafter we had peoples cars in Toyotas, Hondas and Datsuns. Today we have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. Volkswagen does not HAVE to be a minimum-wage brand. But this depends on making it happen. IMO the Phaeton gambit appears to be more like an irresponsible one-night binge on a crap table.

maxhonda99 · November 2004

VW already has Audi to sell upscale cars. Sure, Pischetsrieder was stupid by criticizing the Phaeton concept right after it was launched but that hasn't caused it's failure. I don't think the marketing is hurting it either. I just think people aren't prepared to pay $70K to $100K for a VW! And if they do want to take VW upmarket they should have done it gradually. First take the Passat slightly upmarket, then bring in a car around $50K, then bring in the Phaeton. But that may have not worked either since the Passat W8 flopped big time also. Just goes to prove VW should stick with $15K to $30K cars and let Audi deal with $30K+ products.

"In the 50s Made in Japan meant it was as cheap as it could get. Shortly thereafter we had peoples cars in Toyotas, Hondas and Datsuns. Today we have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. Volkswagen does not HAVE to be a minimum-wage brand."

You point out the difference right in your own statement. Toyota went upmarket by creating a new name brand, so did Nissan and Honda. And Toyota did it smart. They knew nobody would pay $50K for a upstart brand in 1990 so they priced it cheap@$35-$40K and then as people got hooked they moved to the price up. VW played it dumb by bringing a car straight from $30K to $70K. Very dumb move, IMO.

ljflx · November 2004

designman - I'm pretty much with you on this VW recklessness. But I will add that another VW problem is they introduced this car at a point when VW reliability hit its lowest point ever. A better business plan would have made sure VW reliability was on an upward incline first and would have also had one or two other lux cars in the stable with it - either now or planned for the future that it could talk about. You don't bring or get the attention of the lux crowd with just one car and you sure as hell don't bring it in above the price of a Lexus top end car. Had they brought this in at the prices they are charging now, and with a good or improving reliability record, they may have had a chance. But on top of these business screw-ups they had a change of leadership on the top, the CEO criticisms of each other and worst of all they never created any buzz in the market. When Lexus and Infiniti came to market the buzz was so great that there were big news stories on the cars everywhere - to the point that the cars appeared on the covers of business and news magazines for everyone to see - as news stories. There-in lies the other problem - the Japanese did it all with new branding. VW already had an example of what happens when you only try and do it with a car. All they had to do was look at Mazda. Mazda of course wanted the upscale branding in the planned Amati line but didn't have the capital resources to pull it off.

That $499 lease - It was so low I called up a buddy of mine who is a high-up exec in the Ramsey (of New Jersey) car chain to see if it was real. It was. But the lease was for a limited time till today. The dealer will be at $549 starting Tuesday from what I was told but I haven't seen or looked for any other ads. He also told me VW dealers cringe when they get a Phaeton to sell and there is far too much supply and virtually no demand.

designman · November 2004

I think we all are basically on the same page with Phaeton. Everybody makes points I agree with. Ljflx, I always enjoy reading your comments that relate to marketing (others too).

Well, at least this discussion is a change from MB vs Lexus. And by mentioning it I hope I didn't just jinx it!

;-)

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