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Comments
When I mentioned the S-class stretched version, I meant the long wheel base. I have been in the short wheel base S-class and it doesn't offer much room in the back (rather tight similar to the LS) much less when compared to the 7-series iL or the A8.
I have experienced the NYC taxi ride and have been quite impressed. Actually, think the soft ride works very well with the road condition as well as the driver's aggressive style.. I have great respect for the drivers giving the passenger the biggest bang for the buck getting you from A to B in the shortest time.
I just bough a 1998 VandenPlas with 47k miles on in for 32. It is immaculate. Had it checked out and seems to be nothing wrong with car. I will have it checked out by a Jag dealer in my area. I bought a extended warranty from a co. called Herritage. It sounded good for me. Anyone know of the company? My wife is in serious love with this car and so am I. I have had 420SEL Benz, 3 Lexus
LS 400. But I LOVE the Jag. I hope I did the right thing as in long term reliability.
This message is to tell jarmstrong2 that if he wants to correspond with purely jaguar owners, he would be wise to visit the XJ SERIES board. We all have first-hand knowledge of the vehicles, and not speculation, so it is the best place to go for more info. Hope to see you there.~ A.R.
- D.
I hope you gave that taxi driver a good tip. Beware the taxi driver you don't tip well and stumble upon a second time. Then you're in for a ride that you'll never forget.
I did not read into the story that they are going to share platforms. I agree with you that a move like that will damage MB's stature and uniqueness. But I don't think sharing parts and technology crosses that boundary - at least that's my opinion. I certainly hope they don't share platforms as I plan to evaluate MB vs. Lexus again in 2004. A move like that would probably keep me away. It bothered me enough that my local MB dealership was rather small and tied in with Honda.
Anyway there will be a major announcement about all this on Monday by both the executive and supervisory boards of Daimler.
denniswade,
What gets me with you is that you read something then interpret it for something that it isn't. You've done that several other times in different topics. I don't want to say your a fountain of mis-information, but your reputation preceeds you with me. It would be sicking to any enthusiast for Toyota to get their hands on any European car brand. On another subject what does the 2002 Camry look like?
ljflx,
The whole merger is a nightmare. If Mercedes and Daimler don't get rid of Chrysler, Mercedes will be ruined. I didn't say DCX didn' have problems, I'm saying that I don't think the Germans will let Mercedes be pulled down the tubes with Chrysler, they'll un-merge first.
M
I doubt Toyota would be interested in a German car company be it MB or BMW. You can't buy MB as a stand-alone anyway and why would they want the problems and debt the rest of Daimler brings. They are doing very well on their own. Besides do you know how difficult it is to take over a German company? - nearly impossible. But if it were possible I doubt that a bunch of guys in a Boardroom would care about your or my feelings.
Last thing - they will protect MB as much as possible. But cash drains on other parts of the business will have an effect regardless. MB is too small to be spun out and auto companies bring low multiples.
merc1, straight? I have no beef. Just havin' fun!
M
As to whether it would be desirable for Toyota to buy any European brand, Toyota is as respected there as it is here, and if they were to buy out D/C I would imagine that they would try to keep the design team as independant as possible in order to preserve the quality and spirit they bought the company for in the first place - unlike Mercedes' treatment of Chrysler, which was ham-handed and short-sighted at best. Ford has done exceedingly well with their acquisitions because they respected the traditions of the brands they acquired -- Mercedes has not (but thankfully, with Zetsche, appears to be changing course).
Interestingly, the person who was responsible for the concept of the most successful car Alfa ever made -- the Giulietta Spider -- was Max Hoffman, the American distributor for a number of European marques in the fifties and sixties.
M
You last comment, on the other hand, betrays your own bias ("As far as Toyota's respect it isn't in question, what they would do with a European brand is. They couldn't begin to understand what would be at stake. Now the DCX merger is a mess, I'll agree on that, but as long as Mercedes isn't compromised I'm not really worried.")
First, what in the world makes you think you know what Toyota would do with a European brand, and what exactly in their history leads you to believe they wouldn't respect its tradition? Toyota engineers bailed out Porsche several years ago, they have visits and clinics for automakers from all over the world and they have produced cars cheek-by-jowl with GM for years. They are also the most respected car company in the world, (according to Fortune magazine. The Corolla is one of the world's most popular cars in ANY country (it's one of the standard three cars you will find at European rental outlets), and they have a strong racing presence in Europe as well. Remember, it was Mercedes' attempt to keep up with the Toyotas that caused the loss of three of their cars at Le Mans.
As for your comment that you don't care what happens to Chrysler as long as Mercedes is okay, that's not only thoughtless -- there are a lot of people whose livelihoods are at stake here -- but short-sighted as well. Chrysler has produced some truly wonderful cars over the years, and to lose their heritage would be as tragic to me as if we lost Mercedes. I guess that's the biggest difference between you and me -- I'm not a one-brand guy, I love 'em all. But that doesn't mean ANY of them are perfect -- Toyota very much included.
Now what would lead me to believe Toyota wouldn't know what to do with or wouldn't respect a European brand? Try their total lack of "tradition" to begin with. Try their blatant copying of anything European that is succesful. It's so silly the length they'll go through to "be like" someone else. . All the Japanese do is copy. They ought to be tired of it by now. As far as that LeMans comment goes, what are you talking about? I know you don't think that because of a win by someone else Mercedes lost their cars because of they were trying to catch someone? Please tell me that isn't what you're saying. If that's the case everyone in racing has lost a car trying to "catch" someone else. Porsche needed help, you're right, but it was in the area of saving costs more than design, of which the Japanese know very little. GM needs Toyota's help more than anybody else. GM is dying very slowly. For the record I'm not a "one brand guy" either, I like them all too, but I have my favorites. I know you knew that.
Fortune magazine is not an authority on who the most respected car company is. They can tell you that how much money the company has made and their business savy, but that doen't always translate into respect. Respect comes from other factors than just what a money/business magazine says about a car company. I agree that Toyota would be in the top 5, but not not number 1.
M
M
What's with this drag-racing mentality...
I found the LS400 suspension to be competent in a studied way (the whole car is like that). If the new LS if 1/2 as durable as the LS400, it will be a great car.
merc1, forgive my flashing messages I post and delete at the speed of sound. I've been trying to figure out the new software as I haven't posted in a while.
I wanted to say that Dante should have had a special circle of hell for people who can not afford cars they like (me), take years to decide, and want the next thing (always). My own view (and it is contary to convential wisdom I know) is that cars are getting worse and not better. It isn't just Mercedes that is making cars more cheaply- not at all. Volkswagen is no different than Daimler.
The new A4 has 7 % more plastic. In fact, you can see some of it in interior pictures. They can not afford to build the current A6 and the next one will be decontented. The A6 doesn't need a facelift!
Nothing is perfect for me or anyone else. While you've been insisting on one CD player and the right color combination, Mercedes has been hard at work making a car that looks like a cross between a CLK, a Ford Pinto, and AMC Gremlin !
To me, cars are getting better everyday. Cars are safer, more fuel efficient, more comfortable and they perform far better than ever before.
The amount of plastic or the cost of production has little to do with how I personally evaluate a car. We do not live in the dark ages where one judges a car by the quality of the woodwork or leather alone.
I feel that many of us has gotten so picky and spoiled that we are missing the big picture of the progression of automobiles.
Advance passive and active safety, fuel efficiency, aerodynamcis, acceleration, braking and cornering performances, comfort level, ride, noise, convenience features, damages to the environment etc. are FAR more relevant and meaningful in my opinion.
However, you've thrown a lot into the mix! Cars are more safe (this does not do us much good in the US when 1/2 the passengers vehicles are SUVs and trucks, which again, is bad from an environmental point of view).
Wait a minute. Plastic is bad from an environmental point of view- do you know what you have to put in the air to produce it?
You would not want to say that cars were better and better period, because if you did you would
be saying what advertising is saying- of course the car companies want you to think that everything that is new is better.
What else have you put in the mix? Ride and noise. On this I must diagree. Ford Escort, Ford Taurus, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Subaru Legacy, Toyota Corolla are examples of cars that VIBRATE and are LOUD and CRUDE compared to what they were pre-2000. You CAN MAKE a car cheap to the point that is has no quality. Why would you do that? To save yourself money and to increase your profit.
Now who said anything about judging a car based on wood and leather alone? The cars on this list and German luxury cars (and Japanese and American) are
not about "saving the environment", are they?
They are about going AS FAST AS YOU CAN TOXIC EXHAUST PIPE EMISSION BE (can't say it, can't abbreviate it .
I have seen cars from the early 70's to now. Guess what- they are very different, and they change all the time. Fans of Mercedes-Benz know what I am talking about. If you are considering
the cars on this list, or similar cars, you get to judge the car by absolute standards- does it vibrate, how does it handle, how fast does it go,
anything you want, anything at all. By these standards, plastic in cars, in engines, in bodies, in interiors, is not necessarily a good thing!
Cars are better, over-all. It would be a miserable world if every car belched out what American cars did in the early 70's. Cars are more safe (head airbags are a miracle if you know what a head injury can do to a human being).
I'm sorry, I only meant in a sense (in the sense relevant to luxury cars), I think the cars of NOW have value in a way that the cars of the near future will not.
This is interesting logic but I truly prefer newer cars as an overall package, safer, faster and more comfortable.
You are lucky if you have different views as the used luxury cars are usually cheaper than the new ones..
By the way I've done at least 30 acquisitions in my career and put over $100mln. in some peoples pockets and none of them drive a Bentley. One guy does have a few MB's, a few Lexi and one BMW. He also has about 3 homes, one of which has been in Architectual Digest. Needless to say I'd never question how he spends his money.
It utterly amazes me when people say whether a Lex is a "better buy" than some German lux-mobile. Once you start that, hey, a Toyota Camry is an even better buy, you know.
The concept of luxury is get what friggin' simply sybaritically appeals to you, and more or less damn the cost. Heck, you can blow over $100k on a wristwatch if you want to. Easy. Try explaining *that* to people who are stunned by luxury car prices...
The world is full of thoroughly enjoyable stuff that would seem crazily overpriced to the middle-class minded person. Think a $200k Bentley is expensive? Well, how about spending $8,000 on one Brioni suit? $150k on an IWC Grande Complication wristwatch (and there's more expensive ones out there, some might regard that a "reasonable buy")? $600 on Lorenzo Banfi shoes? $6,000 on a Namiki or Montegrappa ink pen? Heck, there's a million ways to spend a lot of money, and they're far less visible than cars. As Adam Smith, the father of market economy, established, the price of something has nothing to do with its true cost - merely with its perceived value.
Fact is, when magazines do comparison tests they try to find competing models as close to the same purchase price as possible -- a fair process, I think -- and when compared against the V8 versions of the S and 7, the LS430 fares extremely well. The fact that it's less expensive is either a bonus or, in the case of less well-heeled customers, is what makes it affordable in the first place. There are persistent rumors of a V12 version of the Lexus, and if they actually bring one to market I'm sure everyone will have to revisit their assessments.
All of the "so-called" independent reviews of this segement come to the same basic conclusion...the LS430 is a bonfide, serious alternative to the Europeans. As a previous owner of both BMW and MB, I just bought my first Lexus...because it was the better vehicle in most areas...not all. The performance handling crown may still belong to Europe, but my decision to buy an LS had this issue ranked lower in terms of importance. (secretly, if I really want performance and a quickening pulse, I'd cram myself into a Porsche and be on my merry way!!)
Bottomline, the serenity of the interior, build quality, plenty of performance for my taste, reliability, price edge, etc. just seem to make an overwhelming case for the LS430.
:-)
But if I could get over the "prestige factor", I'd definitely purchase an LS430 over the MB S-CLass or BMW 7-series. Frankly, the interior of the new S-Class leaves MUCH MUCH MUCH to be desired. The interior has been so decontented, that it would be more appropiate in a 20k-30k vehicle, not a 70k plus.
People should realize that Lexus is only about 11 years old, and I think they have learned over those 11 years, and that is why you see higher quality leather in the new LS, compared with the old. Also, I think they did well for themselves in the style department by keeping a same basic look from the beginning. They are starting their OWN styling legacy.
And, when I graduate from prestige withdrawal, I will be at a Lexus dealer with check in hand. :-)
I've heard that the new Jag will have an aluminum body and suspension bits. It will be a site to see. Now, THAT I'd buy over the LS. Not for prestige but because their cars are so darn gorgeous.
And, hey, I am the first to love Jags, I do own an XJR, and I had the XJS coupe before. But you can see, year by year, how yet another square inches are sacrificed to plastic out of the Ford parts bin. I, for one, do not like the Jag S-class interior all that much.
And the new Jag XJ, from what I have seen, does not look all that mind-boggling. Just a big S-class, a bit more stately. I do think Jaguar will become less remarkable with the new shapes, but hey, it's the way things go. I have never been a big fam of the XK-coupe, for one, it was far less distinctive than the XJ-S, and looks somewhat like a Camaro from too many angles.
And then, of course, Jag will further murk the waters with their X-type. Currently, Jaguar service is one of their major differentiators. Once you crowd the service department with entry-level luxury cars, we'll see how it holds up.
Granted, I would have never bought Jags if Ford wouldn't have straightened them out and delivered on quality. But now, let's see what the future holds.
The current XJR, to me, is somewhat of a bargain. Loads of power, an exquisite Baby-Bentley interior, and unique classic styling in the 60s... I very much doubt the new platform will deliver on all those counts.
As to Lexus - great car and all, but the styling is so bland, sorry, not for me. It does *0* to raise anyone's pulse, it is a perfect, yet utterly passion-less car. I do expect more for a luxury car, more committment to risk and legacy. For instance, the SC430 right now is an odd looking car, but at least they had the guts to try something different. The LS430 is a bit like, uh, let's take a Camry and make it look somewhat more stately...
The ES is a Camry but I wouldn't say that about the LS.
And, visually, I see no similarities between the Lex LS430 and the Merc S class. The new Merc S-class went for a more refreshing image. The happy face lights and a lighter overall presence do represent a certain design risk. I *do* know people who prefered the more conservative and massive presence of the old Merc S class. So I have to give kudos to Mercedes for taking some risk with the new design, and going for discontinuity. Lexus does no such thing - there are no adventures in design whatsoever. No one will ever say "I don't like it at all!", but no one will ever say "It's a gorgeous car!" either, when refering to the design itself.
Don't get me wrong - the Lexus is a phenomenal car: superbly engineered and balanced and all. But it is truly not a car that is *passionate*. Neither is the BMW 7-series, by the way, which I find equally unexciting design wise.
The Audi A8 has class Audi design elements in there, it is recongizable. Not that Audi ever does for big risks in their design, either. It's clean lines, but also somewhat unexciting.
I guess that it's simply the fact that *all* cars are starting to look more and more similar, since, like politicians, they morph themselves into something that appeals to the lowest common denominator. That leads to a certain blandness.
The Jaguar here has the "classic" edge pure and simply because it *is* the oldest design. Updated and all, but still. If the spy shots I have seen of the new model are anything to go by, I will not truly consider the new car, just like I didn't consider the XKR all too seriously after the XJS. The newer models are far more anonymous.
You would think the success of the New Beetle or the kudos the New Mini get would make car designers see that people do reward originality and classic, recognizable design cues. If I were Jag, I would make the new XJ look like the old one, with updated lines and an utterly new base. Keep it different. I would not go for the S-class design, only bigger, which seems to be the road ahead.
flint350, denniswade and my pal wbwynn - great posts!