High End Luxury Cars

hpowders · December 2004

Regarding the new 5 series and 7 series: "BMW, you're breaking our hearts."

hpowders · December 2004

"As imposing as a 2-ton piranha and about as friendly." From the latest Automobile Magazine.

designman · December 2004

You sound like me. BMW is grounded and got sent to their rooms. But you won't get any arguments from the happy campers around here ;-) They'll just add fuel to the fire.

In the 5-series threads a lot of this got discussed last year and many were POed, livid. Now that there are a lot of new 5-series owners the moaning has died down. But the schism continues. Some previously loyal BMW owners want no part of these new cars and I think it will be this way for several years if not forever.

hpowders · December 2004

Between the off-putting new "look" and the needless complexity, what in heavens name were they thinking? Count me as one of those former BMW people. It looks like there may be a Lexus LS 430 in my future and I cannot believe I am saying that unless another car comes along before summer with incredible power and BMW-like ride and handling in the 50-60k range to change my mind. Lexus GS 430? Infinity M45? We'll see.

designman · December 2004

http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7820&sid=173&am- p;am- p;am- p;n=156

The fender flares may be a little excessive but I think it looks pretty cool.

vic6 · December 2004

contemplating buying a 2005 A8 or A8L and hoping to hear from owners about their experiences, especially service and dealer issues as i have been spoiled buy japanese ownership.

pablo_l · December 2004

..notably not being discussed here. I saw it in a car show, and I must say I find it totally overrated from a design standpoint. It's an E class, but with a design language that seems entirely Japanese, and also borrowed from European lower end cars with all those excessively flowing surfaces. And the back seats look even more claustrophobic that in a true coupe... it deserves to flop, and probably will.

What is neat, however, are the high end luxury hatchbacks that both Audi and VW seem to have penciled into their roadmap, somewhere and somehow. I am a luxury, sporty hatchback fan. If anyone remembers the British Jensen brand they'll know why. Childhood dreams. :-)

bobcatman · December 2004

What's the purpose of the CLS anyway? It's not an S class for sure a stretched and morphed E class with swoopy rear styling that's sure to be a headknocker for the back passengers that has no real true market position IMO. A narrow, niche product at best.

At least Mazda's RX8 is truely more purposeful as it's billed as a 4 door sports car carrying over from the wonderful Rx8. M.B should focus resources on getting quality up and not putting out cars that have very limited market scope.

axel1 · December 2004

vic6 - not sure about the dealers yet as I've had one for only 2 weeks, but mine seems like they will be at least fair (brand new dealership). I love this car!!! One intersting thing I almost walked away as they weren't really willing to deal at all. Then they realized I came to them via AAA, and took $2k off the sticker, just like that (I had committed to the deal with $600 off of chrome wheels, but they actually changed it AFTER I was sold).

designman · December 2004

Audi and VW make great looking wagons. Saw a new A6 on the road today. Thought it looked quite attractive. The grille didn't look as shocking as when I first saw it.

ljflx · December 2004

Agree. It definitely has Honda characteristics. Don't like it at all. What's with DCX and interior room these days. Sat in a Chrysler 300 the other day - rear seat - and it felt like someone compressed the roof in. Sat behind the wheel and realized that I better watch out for any of these on the road because the driver certainly doesn't have much of a view of what's behind him. Design seems to rule and apparently has overcome common sense at DCX these days.

Designman - I tend to agree. That grill looked worse in pix than in person. Can't say I like it in general though. But each Audi seems to wear it differently and on the A6 it looks bold and fits well. Good looking car.

lenscap · December 2004

Lexus revealed some of its future plans in an article in this week's Automotive News, an industry trade magazine:

1. Redesigned IS, coming fall 2005, will offer two engines: 2.5 V6 and 3.5 V6.

2. Redesigned GS, arriving in spring 2005, will offer a 3.5 V6 or 4.6 V8 (if true, this is different from previous information saying a 3.0 V6 and 4.3 V8). A hybrid, GS 450h, will team a 4.5 V8 with an electric motor to create V12 performance with V6 fuel economy. Launch date has not been set, although reports say next spring.

3. The high-end of the truck line will gain the JX 470, based on the Sequoia. It should arrive spring 2006, although it is unsure if it will replace the LX 470 or supplement it.

Also, in a press release yesterday, Lexus announced:

1. World premiere of the LF-A exotic sports car concept at the North American Int'l Auto Show (January 9).

2. Debut of the 2005 GX 470 in Detroit, which sees a horsepower boost from 235 to 270.

3. Also in Detroit, the 2005 RX 330 Thundercloud limited edition will be introduced.

oac · December 2004

Interesting news..... Thanks lenscap. Great find.

"A hybrid, GS 450h, will team a 4.5 V8 with an electric motor to create V12 performance with V6 fuel economy. Launch date has not been set, although reports say next spring.

WOW !!! is all I can say.... A hybrid car with a V12 performance and a V6 fuel economy ??? Is MB watching this ??? I sure hope they do, since all MB appears to do lately is churn out gazzillion new models and super-charged high octane motors. Who wouldn't want a V12 performance car with a V6 fuel economy ?? It's the best of ALL worlds for any car enthusiast....

I can see it already: even MB and BMW afficianados will want to check out a GS with such specs. Who wouldn't ? And if Lexus can get these people flocking to their showrooms, chances are great there'll be plenty of converts to the Lexus brand. Afterall, if you couple luxury and performance, with legendary reliability... It's the best of ALL worlds. Sorry, I am repeating myself here, but I had to... I'm just giddy about this news....

Lexus rules .... the happy camper tune

ps: Now Lexus is still coy about their LS redesign and release plans. What the heck are they hiding ???

syswei · December 2004

This site says cy2006:

http://irishcarnews.ie/lexus131204.htm

oac · December 2004

Lenscap:

Do you have output ratings for any of these engines ? The 3.0L touted for the '06 GS3 had 245hp, will the 3.5L be a de-tuned version of the one in the '06 Avalon with 280-ish hp ?? Sure will be better than the 3.0L originally suggested...

How 'bout the *new* 4.6 V8 ?? Never heard of that except the patent filed by Lexus earlier this year. But no rating was given in the patent application. One can speculate at >300bhp, right ? And what will an 0-60 spec be for both the v6 and v8 engines ? Just more questions than answers for me....

oac · December 2004

Thanks syswei.

lenscap · December 2004

oac - The article gave no mention of horsepower. However, it did say the V6s are from a new engine family and that both Toyota and Lexus vehicles will use the engines. It also says the V6 can be as large as 4.0.

At the Lexus driving event in August, the Lexus regional GM told me the new IS horsepower would be around 240 for the 2.5 and around 320 for the 3.5. Things may have changed since August but that is what he said.

oac · December 2004

Super thx, lenscap.

A 320 bhp 3.5L V6 in the GS350 will be hot.... That'll compete favorably with the 530i and demolish the E320. The latter is a rip-off, price-wise, anyway.

So the 4.6L v8 should start north of 350bhp then ?

Sweet ! Just the kind of things Lexus needs to be doing to maintain and capture more market share from BMW and MB. Now, if only their exterior designs will meet up with what lies underneath the hood ???

syswei · December 2004

This is just a guess but if the engines are being developed at the same time then the hp might turn out proportionate to the displacement, so if the 3.5 is 320hp the 4.6 could be 400+.

designman · December 2004

320 hp in the GS will be hot? In the IS it will smoke the 3-series and a ton of other cars. Are they still making the SportCross? That would interest me. Probably not, it just aint selling, just my luck aye? With AWD it would hit my sweetspot but I could compromise it for a sport setup.

And so its new and bold, hats off to thee

To our colors true we will ever be

Firm and strong, united are we

Rah rah rah, sis boom bah

Best scout camp is Lexus blah blah blah

Onward to vic-to-ry!!!

;-)

(I hope they like those jokes on the moon.)

oac · December 2004

400bhp motor in a 3,800Ib GS4xx ??? That will be fantastic ! It will appear that Lexus, while claiming not to be interested in an hp war, may actually be engaging in one. See the competition:

545i: 4.4L = 325hp (3800 Ib curb weight), or 11.7 Ib/hp

M45: 4.5L = 340bhp (3800Ib curb weight), or 11.1 Ib/hp

E500: 5.0L = 302bhp (~4000Ib curb weight), or 13.2 Ib/hp, versus

GS4xx: 4.6 ~ 400bhp (3800Ib est. curb weight) at 9.5 Ib/hp

Outstanding weight-to-hp ratio for the GS should make it a hell of a car on a straightline. And if handling is improved (as expected), chances are it may even out-handle the Bimmer. That would be something, isn't it ?

oac · December 2004

Designman:

Acura sells its re-designed RL with a 300hp 3.5L V6. Honda/Acura managed to squeeze out additional 30hp from the previous 270hp output. That was outstanding, for a V6. How many V6 engines churn out 300hp ?

A 2006 GS350 at 320hp is 100hp MORE than the current 220hp GS300. See the difference ? Especially seeing that this new 3.5L V6 will generate ~90hp/L. That is outstanding by any measure, and quite comparable to the 1ZZ Yamaha motor in the Matrix XRS (Celica as well) which generates 100 hp/L (from the 1.8L 180hp Celica).

C'mon, you gotta give Lexus its due props for trying to bring out a product that will compete. I am sure BMW and MB are not taking these information lightly (at least I hope not).

kyfdx · December 2004

Lots of cars can "outhandle" a BMW.. or even out-brake it.. and have higher skidpad ratings.. It is all about the feel and the feedback.. It isn't how fast you can go.. it is how confident you are in going fast..

If they can't do it now, how is horsepower going to help?

And it isn't just the Sportcross that doesn't sell... I doubt Lexus will sell even 5000 IS300 sedans this year...

lenscap · December 2004

With all the talk of the potential GS 350 (remember this is the first article that has mentioned a GS 350 as opposed to a GS 300), keep in mind the Lexus regional GM only told me the IS 350 would be around 320 hp. He never said anything about the GS. I believe the new Avalon's 3.5 V6 will have 270 hp, so it is only speculation that the GS will have 320 also.

lenscap · December 2004

You're right many cars outhandle and/or outperform a BMW. But BMWs don't sell because they give confidence when going fast to most people (although some people do care). They sell simply because of the status of the BMW name.

I look at the Acura TL and feel if that car can sell 5000-6000 units a month, the new IS should be just as successful.

kdshapiro · December 2004

You are pretty far a-field if you think people buy BMWs because of the name and they don't buy Lexus because of the "name". BMW has earned their name and performance oriented reputation. Lexus and the rest of the the crowd has also worked hard to earn their place.

I like the prognostications. Anyone know where the market is going?

lovemyclk · December 2004

You gotta be kidding with this comment! BMW is the most performance-centric mfgr in the world (outside of pure-play sports car companies such as Porsche/Ferrari/etc.).

Not to say they have not made miscalculations with "solutions" to problems that don't exist - like iDrive. People that have achieved lofty goals in life often reward themselves with something that occupies a status level, whether it be a BMW, Rolex or, yes... a Lexus. Nothing wrong with this and thankfully, there are choices out there to consider when searching for that reward!

COmpanies like BMW achieve their status level for one reason... it is earned over many years of delivering in excess of customer expectations. Their challenge is not losing these same customers with wrong-headed experiments with technology.

If iDrive was the answer to a problem, it should have been offered in low-volume cars (645) as an option to gain feedback, IMO. But, when it comes to the art of "driving", there are few vehicle lines that perform from top to bottom like BMW.

designman · December 2004

The Lexus camp song in my last post is only banter. I give them a lot of credit. I am beholden to no brand. I like to see them all achieve as this is good for competition, and competition benefits us all. Those engine reports are real tasty and Im serious about the IS. I also cant wait for their hybrids and the next LS. I want all manufacturers to light fires under each other's butts.

designman · December 2004

Lots of cars can "outhandle" a BMW..

Wow! Thats a shocker coming from you. Were you just coming back from a holiday party on 5 martinis when you said that? ;-) I dont care what the nitpickin details of tests say, no sedan outhandles BMWs. Audi is the closest. You know how much I criticize BMW, but the buck stops here. The steering, synergy of the drivetrain, the directional stability... tests don't measure this.

kdshapiro · December 2004

I think he meant there cars with higher slalom, skidpad and acceleration numbers. But no car comes close to the "oneness" with the road.

ljflx · December 2004

With all that news - nothing on the LS. But you know that this blitz is all due to the worldwide intro of the brand. With the LS being the foundation car and the Lexus kingpin I would imagine that news will come last but also will be the biggest news of all and generate the greatest impact. It's obvious that Lexus is also bringing the V12 equivalent hybrid to its top two cars now - LS and GS (no doubt the SC or the next gen sports car gets it to and maybe even the big suvs) - another heightened positioning vs. the Europeans. This news also means that second gen battery that promotes the better fuel economy on the road is a sure bet for 2006/7 time period. Where the heck is MB in all this?? Better have a secret weapon of some kind or their days of leadership position in stature are numbered. Not only does Toyota have that $12bln a year in earnings and huge stockpile of cash to empower them but strategically they bet on hybrids while the europeans bet on i-drive and needless electronics. A double whammy.

lenscap · December 2004

While I said many people buy BMWs because of the name, I agree with you that many people also buy Lexus because of the name. I did not mean to single out BMW, as the status factor is probably involved in most of the higher-end car purchases.

And while I also agree BMW has earned its reputation for building the most driver-oriented cars, I believe this matters only to some people. There are many drivers, including some in my own family, who have purchased BMWs and are far from hard-core driving enthusiasts and would never know (or care) that a BMW handles any different than other cars.

kyfdx · December 2004

Yeah.. what he says..

A lot of cars can beat the "numbers", but they can't match the "feel".

kyfdx · December 2004

I doubt anyone buys any car for over $30K, and isn't somewhat swayed by status, reputation, etc..

That isn't just cars.. pick any consumer item..

Most of my posts above were relative to the 3-series and IS300...

Like lenscap says.. many people aren't worried about driving dynamics, etc... The cars they choose don't really interest me, though..

ljflx · December 2004

The stature line is true of all brands of any product line.

I agree with lenscap's point though as I encounter plenty of slow BMW drivers who brake on curves I fly around. The thought that every BMW driver or even more than 50% of them is/are enthusiast(s) is pure myth carried to an extreme. But I would think for sure that BMW has the highest enthusiast percentage among major auto mfrs. (exclude Porsche as they are not a full line producer). I can't imagine that changing any time soon either. Personally I think BMW is more secure than MB, particularly in the American market.

designman · December 2004

Adrian Streather author of Porsche 911 Enthusiasts Companion says that Porsche enthusiasts make up a tiny percentage of Porsche buyers something like 10 percent and that Porsche does not target them, rather the other ~90 percent. However, Im not convinced the terms enthusiast and badge buyer can be clearly defined. I think there could be plenty of enthusiasts who are badge buyers and vica versa.

However to say BMWs sell simply because of the status of the BMW name is inaccurate, and I maintain that people who think this way either know nothing about BMWs or do not appreciate their product benefits.

lenscap · December 2004

A list of very recent automotive trademark filings seems to provide further evidence of some upcoming Lexus models (IS250, IS350, GS350, GS460, GS450h, JX470, RX350):

http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200402.html

kdshapiro · December 2004

"I agree with lenscap's point though as I encounter plenty of slow BMW drivers who brake on curves I fly around."

I brake on curves especially with my precious cargo(family) in the car. The way one drives though has little to do with the reasons one bought the car.

People may buy BMW for the name, but I believe they know what the name stands for, and, they don't have to drive like a testoserone-crazed teenage male to prove they know something about they way their BMW drives.

kyfdx · December 2004

"they don't have to drive like a testoserone-crazed teenage male to prove they know something about they way their BMW drives."

Nope..but, it sure is fun...

hpowders · December 2004

Uhh...we don't?

lovemyclk · December 2004

When given a choice on a new car recently, my 81 year-old Mom said something interesting... "I don't want to drive an old lady car"! Couldn't interest her in an ES330, Camry, Avalon, Accord, etc.

I drive an e39 530, as does my brother. She LOVES the feel and the drive of our cars, so she said she wanted a BMW! We bought her a 2004 325i and she is in love with this car... and this after coming from a 1986 Caddy Fleetwood. She said that she feels more connected with the car and finds it actually easier to drive than her friend's cars - not to mention the Caddy.

Granted, she doesn't take turns like a hormone-crazed teenager, but she feels safer on the road and can react better to driving situations. I assure you, this is a good thing for others on the road as well as for her. I spent 3 days with her to take it on the road in various conditions so she could familiarize herself with the controls and the new "feel" on the road compared with her old Caddy.

Now she says that driving the 325 is a real pleasure... and her bridge group buddies are all jealous ;-)

kdshapiro · December 2004

Nice - can I be an adopted son?

oac · December 2004

What ??? You mean 90% of Porsche owners could care less about its "sporty" handling and performance features ??? So 9 out of 10 owners don't give a rats *** whether Porsche out-handles, out performs, outruns, etc other cars out there ??? Who would've thunk that ??? That only a miniscule minority (the so-called "enthusiasts" by the definitions thrown around here) care about stuff like this, eh ?

Tells me one thing crystal clear: Luxury cars are purchased primarily because of their name brand. Period.

See how Lexus has supplanted the entire luxury market in 15 years of entry ? They know their market more than the competition. And they cater to this 90% of their clientele more than MB and BMW does. Like lovemyclk correctly posited, what problem(s) is I-Drive solving? More like creating problems that solving anything ? MB has reliability issues, BMW has design and electronic issues. Lexus, so far, is dancing clear of trouble, and if they can meet their goals of the new releases for MY 2006 and 2007, who knows how high they'll go ?

Can't get this out of my head tho': a v12 performance with a v6 fuel performance ! We are talking a 500+bhp car (potentially), with 25+ mpg (potentially)? Are you kidding me ?? This engine in an LS500 will blow the competition away.... literally...MY2007 cannot come soon enough !
Me, I just want the LS SWB version, with a sweet 4.6L engine churning out 400+bhp, in a sweet new skin, with 19" shoes, and 6-speed manumatic shifter. That'll be a killer car when it comes out...

jrock65 · December 2004

I'm with the camp that says that the majority of ( >50% ) of MB, BMW, Lexus, and Audi buyers buy these cars primarily because of the name. It's less the case with Infiniti and Acura because these brands don't have that level of cachet or prestige, yet. Of course, this isn't something that can be quantified or even surveyed, but comes from my impressions of people who drive these cars.

Anyways, with all the hoopla about 320hp and 400+hp Lexuses, I think that the biggest news is that they're bringing a IS250. If they get it right, it'll be a huge seller for Lexus, just like the 325i is for BMW. The 325i outsells the 330i by more than 4 to 1. Infiniti needs to do the same and bring the G25 or G30, and price it a couple thousand less than the G35.

ljflx · December 2004

Gotta love you OAC!

I'd be a bit more spirited but I just watched the local news and the damm weather guru's in NYC are all excited about a blizzard on Monday. Man - they had better be UNRELIABLE - if you know what I mean.

Now - about Lexus - we know a lot about everything else - thanks to Lenscap - but we still are lacking about the cars (HPX included)we really care about. Gotta get to the bottom of this when I service my car within the next month. I have no doubt though that 2007 will be the latest possible point of the big change. But I want it to be 2006 or April 2007 so that the excitement calms down by my current lease endpoint. In the meantime this 2004 LS is just plain fabulous. I don't lease it because of the L on the hood. I lease it (and have done so now for 10 years) because its one of the best luxury cars in the world (best under $100K in my book) with reliability you can take to the bank.

oac · December 2004

Len:

You correctly pointed out that Lexus is being secretive about the new LS bcos they want to make a big bang with this car. If the releases as we are finding out come out in that order - GS > IS ~ GX > LS > LX/JX, then one can speculate a spring/summer of 2006 for the LS. I sure hope for this timeframe.

I see lots of AMG-badged cars out here in San Diego. Way too many... Beautiful cars, I must confess. All of them. Saw my first C55 AMG just this past weekend. Brand, spanking new car. Beautiful. My favorite MB, so far, is the E55. Just cool, baby ! Don't care for the bangle-ized 5- and 7-series. Audi just never moved me at all. Ditto Jaguar. Will like to see a car with MB exterior, Lexus interior, Lexus reliability and BMW chassis and drivetrain. Hmmmm.... Any car fill such a description and priced under $70K ?

garyh1 · December 2004

Question: what is this list?

A. Most admired cars

B. Motor Trend's Cars of the Year

C. Cars most preferred by driving enthusiasts

D. Most unreliable sedans made

MAKE MODEL Average Price

1 Mercedes-Benz S-Class $100,000

2 Jaguar S-Type 51,000

3 BMW 7 Series 94,000

4 Jaguar X-Type 33,000

5 Mercedes-Benz E-Class 64,000

6 Mercedes-Benz C-Class(V6) 40,000

7 Volvo S60 (AWD) 32,000

8 Saab 9-3 35,000

9 Pontiac Grand Prix¹ 25,000

10 Volkswagen Passat(AWD) 28,000

11 BMW 5 Series 58,000

Yep, it's "D". How sad, MB's top-of-the-line sedan is now more unreliable than the worst Jaguar, for which the joke was created "I love my Jag so much, I bought two: one to drive while the other is in the shop." And MB sedans hold 3 out of the top (bottom) 6 places.

The 12/13/04 Forbes (p.62) has an article headed "Over-Engineering 101: Seems that the fancier- and more European- the car, the less reliable it is". They note that YTD through October, 7 Series and S Class sales were down 19% and 12%, respectively, compared to 2003.

http://www.forbes.com/business/global/2004/1220/025.html

I guess the target market for these cars is now (1) people who can afford to buy 2 of them, and have full-time help that can take them to the shop for repairs-- or who don't work themselves so they are looking for something to do to get them out of their castles, and enjoy the all the trips back to the dealer; (2) people who don't read; and (3) people who can really appreciate the very slightly noticeable (at normal speed) better road handling, and don't care about the practicality. That's got to be a shrinking universe.

sapparo · December 2004

Big surprise on the answer D. Though the german car fans will say it's a fluke again year after year. An E class for $64K get serious, the LS 430 will destroy that in quality, space and features and one can buy it for that. No way is this car better than the super high tech. 2005 Acura RL, 5 star safety all round 1st for a vehicle, and just made C&D 10 best list all for $50k. The RL interior just blows out any M.B. I've seen old or new. And that navi. is just the finest in the industry at the moment.

A while back on 5 series board someone had a hissy fit when I quesitoned BMW's 5 & 7 and most new M.B had bad reliability straight from C.R. latest report. Can't critize Bungle's latest basterdized offspring. Too bad I will lol.

On the next upcoming Lexus it will a deja vu all over again like 1989 according to my dealer. Another revolution coming. The V-12 rumour is not happening that would just be playing to the status quo of the others which Lexus will never do. Their being very secretive and have every reason to be, this car be a technology tour-de-force unlike any other Japanese or german competitor to date.

hpowders · December 2004

If you take a look at the recent "5 series sedans" postings, they are all rationalizing about how great the new 5 is-how it looks, how it drives. When I posted a question concerning the idrive/reliability issues, I was just ignored and they went right on praising each other about how lucky they all are to be able to spend 50 large on a BMW 5 series.

kdshapiro · December 2004

That is an interesting interpetation on the thread.

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