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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Boy, you sure have an issue with the A8 don't you

     

    What issue ? I simply provided a link and commented on hard facts. Can't handle facts ?

     

    The problem with the LS is that it is an old man's car in looks and in performance

     

    And by inference, the A8 and 7-series are for YOUNG people in looks and performance. That's why these cars are in high demand by the baby boomers who don't care to drive an old person's car like the LS ! Ooppsss.... The LS outsells the A8 and the 745/760 COMBINED. It must be that "car enthusiasts" are in such short supply otherwise the sales trend should be in the other direction, if your logic holds true.

     

    Sarcasm aside, the simple fact is that car manufacturers are in the business to make money. The A8 and 7-series are NOT niche cars, but sell like one. If the trend continues, both BMW and VW/Audi would not be able to sustain the continued loss of market share by their premier sedan, and something will have to give. If the LS is outselling its competition COMBINED, it must be doing something right. Maybe it's time for BMW and Audi to *copy* Lexus' LS success formula. Would help their bottomline a great deal.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    0-60 isn't really fair. You can't go by any magazine because that really all depends on what the conditions are outside, relative to temperature, and also elevation. I wouldn't ever consider 0-60 as a legitimate reason for picking a car over another, or even in comparison. What one test says, another will say differently. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the S430 is at a disadvantage because of it's engine. I think that the S500 is a far better comparison to the LS430.

     

    If one wants pure driving fun, the 7er is for you. But, I don't think that that is really what the consumers want in this segment, as you can see by the numbers of sales.

     

    The LS in my opinion, is a steal, and you'd have to be crazy not to consider it in picking out which of these cars you favor. It is a bargain compared to the german makes as far as price is concerned.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    One mag (forget which) described the LS' handling as "greasy". Also the stability control kicks in too soon for those who like to twist. German car lovers don't like this. Those who like soft rides don't seem to understand this.

     

    As far as sales go, I just think Audi could never overcome MB and BMW on branding. I also think that they never really grew roots in the USA with much credit going to the reliability issues of the 70s. However I think that next to the XJ, the previous generation A8 was one of the best looking luxury sedans that was ever made... inside and out.

     
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Let's put your quote into more proper words:

     

    "Many german diehard car enthusiasts can't accept the fact that the Lexus LS430 has rivaled and surpassed their flagship cars. Many others accepted it a long time ago and switched".

     

    In case you didn't know it the LS430 took that trophy that Audi has from Automobile the year before. Audi barely won with a totally redesigned car. The LS430 euro handles nearly as well as the A8 and with no ride compromise.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    There are a lot of German ride enthusiasts who are going to go down with the ship if the ship in fact goes down. I'd love to to test that car if you can find one around. Seems like an afterthought option.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I have an 01 LS 430 Ultra...It does 0-60 in 6.3 sec. In sport and power modes it handles well enough for me to navigate anything I need or want to...

     

    It is true I do not want to do 100mph on twisting mountain roads...I also do not want to be stranded in a ghetto because my electrical system has a problem or for any reason.

     

    My time is too valuable to me to want to spend time going back and forth to a shop getting my car repaired...

     

    Yes...I prefer driving a quite smooth riding car while listening to my Mark Levinson sound system...

     

    Call me an old fuddy duddy..but I like a car that doesn't need to make a visual statement...yet is as luxurious/and safe/and reliable as any car on the market

     

    There are reasons that Lexus LS is the top selling ultra Luxury brand. Have you tried driving one.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    If you don't want the stability control on you can turn it off by pushing a botton...so it kicks in too soon seems like a stretch for something for that German magazine to critize.

     

    I also like the looks of the Jag and the A8
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I recall reading that it can't be turned off. Are you sure about this? In any event, I'll try to find the article. I can't imagine why they would mention it with such concern if it can be turned off.
  • flyfisher1flyfisher1 Member Posts: 38
    "it nearly handles as well" - needs tricked up sports suspension to nearly do it (A8 has adjustable suspension standard)

    "nearly won the award this year" - Almost and nearly just don't cut it. Face it - the LS is a boring automobile. It is exquisitely assembled but it is BORING.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Boring for you and a bunch of guys who you put you total belief in what can collectively be titled autorags inc. But then they are not so objective and test sport suspensions against standard suspensions and then give away the subjective points to the car they want to win. Not boring to those who buy it obviously given it has the highest marketshare by far and scores closer to 10 than any of these cars. It's a family sedan for cryin out loud not a two seater road hugger. I've driven the A8 - you have to be kidding if you are telling me its a road hugger.

     

    designman - no afterthought - the Euro handles very well and it costs $100 more than the base suspension and that cost is for the tires and wheels, not the car.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    In August I crossed shopped all of the lux cars recently discussed here.

     

    Here's my take and final decision:

     

    XJ8- great looking and unique styling. Drove very ordinary, nothing special and interior was dissapointing.

     

    A8- Liked looks as it's very distinctive as well.

    All wheel drive is a big plus. Great interior. Only long wheel base was available and it wouldn't fit in my garage. Also, I felt like a limo driver when I looked at the back seat. Didn't feel confident in the quality of electronics just from resarch of the brand. If A6 was out I might have considered as it seems to be similar to A8 SWB.

     

    MBS 430 4 matic- My favorite in classy looks. On 2 different test drive vehicles there were electronic glitches. Couldn't tilt wheel and one window wouldn't go up! Loved the way it drove. Ruled out for quality issues which I witnessed first hand.

     

    BMW 745i- I like the styling. Interior was a dissapointment for a luxury car. It drove great but too sporty. If I wanted a sporty drive I would have stayed with my 330 or gone to the 530. Also, didn't want to deal with I Drive and have 2 friends who went lemon law.

     

    LS430-I decided that for a luxury car this fulfilled 90% of what I wanted. Comfort, reliability, performance re speed which is important to me in merging etc. tech goodies like blue tooth which I use with my cell phone, and reliability. Also, ML was important to me as it's is the absolute best car audio I've ever had or heard.

     

    In my perfect world the S Class would be as reliable as a the Lexus, have all the tech goodies and cost the same. That car didn't exist so I went with the LS and have been very happy. I also realized that all cars compromise on some aspects. One just has to decide for them what aspects they are and are not willing to compromise on.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    NY Times Sunday auto section has a good picture of the LF-A on cover page. This car looks great from the side and back and very different than anything out there. The car looks very aggressive and dynamic. They don't show the front and from the pix you showed that seemed to be its weak link. But the Times pix show the detail of the car a lot clearer than the web shots do. If they fix that droop down front this car will be fabulous. Who knows - maybe in person that front looks great too.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    A8 and S owners don't seem to like their cars very much after they've owned them for a bit, whereas 7 and LS owners do, at least according to the JDP "APEAL" study...which doesn't measure quality issues.

     

    Check http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp

    for the MY2004, and see how owners on average view their own cars...including on the non-quality issues.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,

      I think perspective matters a great deal..I favor objectives over the subjective comments made by the autorags..Sure the car "sticks to the road" what about about depreciation? Reliability? Service?

     

    Seeing that I seem to be buying these cars every 3-4 yrs I don't want to take a big hit in depreciation..(I was actually surprised by how well my '02 LS held its value..)

     

    Actually I bought my '05 LS after nearly closing on a 4 Matic S430...It drove nicely, but I wasn't impressed by the electronics. The CD changer is still in the trunk! (It was an '03 model w/7K miles) Maybe they've changed it on the new one. The Nav system seemed out of date..The screen was also too low. Another thing that bothered me was the air suspension..

     

    Since I like to keep my cars for long periods (well, at least TRY to) I don't want to deal with a $4K repair once it goes out..The One year Starmark warranty wasn't very impressive either..Lexus offers 3 yrs. I asked the salesman point blank "Why shouldn't I buy a Lexus instead of this car?" His answer was, "It's a Mercedes and because of the way it drives.." I don't know about you but it wasn't worth $14K more.

     

    My next purchase is likely to be a preowned '03 XJ8..They are covered by a solid 3 yr extended warranty that has won plenty of accolades. Besides it isn't crammed with all these electronic goodies that are likely to make my life miserable in 10 years. The quality is the best for any Euro nameplate..Lexus? no, but not too bad either. Unlike Lexus (Probably the only objective advantage Jag has) there are plenty of Jaguar Specialists about. If you read the reviews most owners are still happy with the car after a few years. For Looks I don't think it can be beat.The only problem I face is convincing the wife I actually "need" another car..

     

      

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I misread your comment and thought you were referring to afterthought as my last sentence rather than Lexus options. To clarify the Euro - Lexus gave it plenty of thought but didn't dress it up in sportclad extras. They put it out as a no cost option for anybody that wanted or craved the tighter handling but did not want it to sacrifice Lexus ride quality by doing so. They found out that it was more a necessity in California to convert German car buyers than it was in the big east coast markets. Hence it is not so easy to get on the lots here but you can order one in advance.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    SV

     

    Of course the FAMILY needs another car...For Her..if her current car broke down, it would break your heart seeing her trapped like an animal (in her beautiful home) unable to go shopping or take the dog to the animal hospital if there was an accident...

     

    YOU DEFINATELY NEED ANOTHER CAR.....FOR HER.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi Michael,

     

    Good idea, but the problem is that she stole my bulletproof 92 LS..Once my son headed to the London to study she prompty got rid of her Camry (Yes, thrifty I know..But she has a penchant for driving too fast..I thought a 4 Cyl Camry would do the trick) and took the LS400.

     

    Unfortunately she's too well informed to believe a Jaguar is going to be more reliable than the LS. She'll likely demand my '05 LS as a "Settlement" (In her mind I keep spending our money on cars instead of going to obscure places I never wanted to see anyway! Women, don't you love them?)

     

    She's already looking for excuses to take my new car out including, "Ooh the parking radar makes my life so much easier! How about those seats! You can make them cold too!' What I want to say is "Hey! Those are MY toys!"

     

    It's quickly becoming like that hilarious Mercury commercial where the husband and wife keep getting up earlier and earlier in the morning to drive the new car..Not that I mind driving my old LS400..But I just bought the '05 only 11 days ago!

     

    Suggestions Gentlemen Please!

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Jewelry is always the way to go but that adds a lot of cost to the car. Otherwise I find my wife is in love with a sports touring car for BOTH of us (her words) to toy around with. That's why I have my eye on the SL, SC and XK in that order for the extra toy car. As outdated as that XK is I still love and covet it. The XJ does nothing for me though. So share and grit your teeth or pay the piper.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Have you considered trading in the old model and keeping the new LS for yourself? Rumor has it some of those new models have a lot of pickup...but then again we are used to our "old men's" models built more for comfort than speed-- and we do value reliability over style. Wait a minute, am I talking about spouses or cars???;-)

     

    Seriously, I would think she would find a Jag a pretty attractive alternative to another LS. And you will always have the reliable LS to get around in when the Jag is in the shop.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    SV.

     

    See if jag has one in a color that matches her eyes and tell her how irristable it is since it reminds you of her.

     

    Tell her how pretty she would look in it..

     

     or tell her the Lexus is ok for you but she deserves a better looing car with more prestige.

     

    The final shot..is to buy it for her as a birthday gift without telling her...Use the eye thing and prestige thing as justification...Be sure to aircondition the Dog house first.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Michael,

      You are a genius..I never thought of that angle..I would get away with it as well! "How thoughtful of you!" It's a good thing she doesn't know I post here otherwise I'd be in big trouble.

     

    I realize this is a discussion for high end luxury cars and not "high end" (As in Expenditure) women! But it's interesting to examine how our spouses influence our car buying.

     

    In my case I get away with buying LS cars because of the objectives. I can easily point to the residual value and say "Hey, it won't cost much to replace it" or, "This is the best car out there!" It's hard to argue with Lexus marketing statistics. I bought my '05 LS on Christmas Eve and sold it to her as a "Christmas present for the family." Needless to say she saw through that one!

     

    SV
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    SV.

     

    Now you have me Blushing
  • stevesteinstevestein Member Posts: 263
    Buy her an SC.
  • famwaldfamwald Member Posts: 114
    <<She's already looking for excuses to take my new car out including, "Ooh the parking radar makes my life so much easier! How about those seats! You can make them cold too!'>>

     

    SV --- Just be glad the object of her desire has four wheels instead of two legs. <VBgrin>
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Fear not! Your annual Detroit Autoshow Report is here!

     

    First off I'll say that the show is getting to crowded. There simply isn't enough space for every maker to display all their products. Only the luxury brands will be elaborated on here.

     

    Audi - Each and every vehicle seemed to be a winner to everyone there. I personally love the new A6, grille and all. Ditto for the updated 2006 A4, and A8 W12. Speaking of the A8 W12, they had a special version present with a 17K Quattro GmBh "Special Build" package that contained special leathers, wood and a 4-seat package with the best interior of any car this side of a Maybach or Rolls-Royce. Stunning overall presentation. The new A3 Sportback is a very interesting car, it should do well if priced right. The A8 or Phaeton are my picks in their segment, not the S-Class anymore. Everything was very upbeat at Audi.

     

    BMW - Not much new this year as far as styling or products, just updates to current models. The new 530ix models and of course the 500hp V10 M5. What a car! Now watch as it inhales the segment. Of the current BMW family on the M3 and 5-Series are lookers to me, with the 6-Series being on the fence.

     

    Mercedes-Benz - It seems they didn't have enough space to display one of each model because my favorite Benz (the CL) wasn't present. Everyone was going ga ga over the CLS, a CLS55 AMG to be exact. Now a bit of catch-up here: I got a chance to see the CLS at a "Love Mercedes" event this past summer so Detroit wasn't my first time seeing it. Anyway, the CLS is a stunner and is the most expressively styled Mercedes sedan ever. I predict this car will easily sell the 8K units allocated for the U.S. Now for the not so good news, the M-Class. The new M-Class while improved over the current vehicle (how could it not be) didn't get the attention that a new Mercedes-Benz should get. The CLS, CLK, SL, SLR, E, and even the aged S-Class all got way more attention. Having the new ML's locked (at least on this day) probably didn't help matters any. Either way I wasn't really too impressed by it. I predict a lukewarm response in the marketplace for it. There is something missing compared to MB's cars. The two "Sport Tourer" concepts were talked about too, with the larger R-Class (as it will be called come Geneva) getting most of the attention. I think the smaller fwd B-Class is a mistake in the U.S.

    The SL65 and G-Class were in a corner of the display causing major problems for people trying to cram in that space to see them. As usual the foot traffic at Mercedes was the heaviest of the lot.

     

    Jaguar - Another example of a cramped display space. You can't get a decent picture or profile of any of their cars because of the space provided and the way they are arranged within said space. Anyway, the "Advanced Lightweight Coupe" concept is the next Jaguar XK. While a good looking car for sure, it comes off as a junior Aston-Martin. I was kinda hoping for more daring from Jaguar. Love the XJR and current XK models, classics. The X-Type needs to be thrown away, imo.

     

    Lexus - Finally a Lexus badged vehicle (production or concept) that looks like something you'd actually want to drive. The LF-A is almost there, sleek and all but the nose and details need work. That said the basic shape and stance is the best of any Lexus concept vehicle yet. The rear end with its cooling fans exposed is pure aggression and the interior is sports car correct. As for the production cars, still all yawners to me. The new GS didn't impress either, it actually manages to look worse than the 1998-2005 model. The big news is that the hybrid GS (GS450h) will be shown at the New York autoshow in April and judging by the repsonse to the RX400h in Detroit it should be a hit.

     

    Infiniti - Well it is official. Infiniti has joined the list of luxury car brands in favor with me. It goes Mercedes, Audi, BMW and then you guessed it a Japanese upstart named Infiniti. The M35/45 are the best products from any Japanese maker yet to challenge the E/5-Series dominated middle segment. I predict that the M twins are going to be a hit just like the G. One thing though, in the recent roadtest of the M45 in Car and Driver, they mention an "ATM" like dasboard. I sat in the car thinking they were exactly right..it really does look like an ATM machine. Didn't like that at all, and the rear end will take some getting used to, but those are minor things and shouldn't hinder the car in the market. The G35 Coupe has gotten expensive at 40K loaded. Youch! Infiniti has all likeable cars except one, the unloved and very little attention getting Q45. It is as ugly as ever for 2005. The FX35/45 are still unique in the market and continue to excite.

     

    Bentley - I continue to be the only person I know that doesn't like their darling Continental GT Coupe. Three years on and I still don't like it. Give me an Arnage. I see that the sedan version of the Continental GT, the Continental Flying Spur was shown today and will debut at Geneva in March. I'm still thinking its ugly, but we'll see. As usual all oohs and ahhs from behind the rails that always seperate the Bentleys from the masses.

     

    Maybach - For some reason this year people were behaving like they've never seen these cars before. I didn't understand it. Anyway, they had the car's doors open with a live jazz performance playing on the dual DVD screens and the sound was amazing. The Maybach 62 is still mis-proportioned to my eye, the 57 is the model to have if you must.

     

    Aston-Martin - Nothing new this year except the hi-po Vanquish S. It takes an expert to spot the differences between it and the "regular" Vanquish. Crowds the same a Bentley.

     

    Cadillac - I'll try to boil this one down a little. For those of you that have never been to Detroit, it is still an American car town by far. Cadillac like the rest of GM seems to really trying to compete at every level, or at least that was the feeling I got at the Cadillac display. The 440hp Supercharged STS-V is a car after my own heart. While I don't care for the looks of any of these new Cadillac it seems that they are really on their way. The same engine/6-speed automatic combo will be available in the XLR-V to be shown in New York in April. These two cars while not world beaters will go a long way towards giving Cadillac the boost they've needed for the last 30 years. I applaud their effort.

     

    Rolls-Royce - The most reserved display. Just one Phantom and I didn't see the 100EX concept there either. Very quiet.

     

      

    continued....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Acura - Nice cars for sure, but lacking compared to MB,BMW,Lexus and now Infiniti once you get past the entry level class in which the TL competes. There is no way the RL is worth 50K. The new M45 cost the same money and will outperform it: read V8. I like Acuras but they're loosing the plot in my book. The RD-X concept is just luxury Honda CR-V and not very convincing. Acura needs something to spice up their lineup.

     

    Just some overall thoughts about the show.

     

    Styling as always with me is a big deal and two cars stand out in very dubious ways. First the new Toyota Avalon. This has to be the ugliest car I've seen a quite some time. I mean they actually managed to make it look worse than the current model, something I didn't think was possible. Next up is VW. The new Jetta is a Toyota Corolla in stance, shape and rear end, only the front with its VW grile is VW original. I couldn't believe it.

     

    I have totally fallen for the VW Phaeton. Love this car! Between the Phaeton and the A8, Mercedes better better do a SLK-like transformation with the next S-Class otherwise it is going to be a long 8 years.

     

    GM seems to be really trying to keep Toyota from inhaling them in the next few years. Cadillac, Pontiac and to a lesser degree Chevy all seem to finally seeing the light. Saturn also has a lot of new products on the board, and wisely they'are all Opel based products. These cars will be unique in the U.S. market, something Saturn has always promised but never delivered, well at least in a favorable way.

     

    Something I noticed at MB: build quality. The new SLK and CLS are built better than any other current Mercedes products. The new ML was locked so I didn't get a chance to judge it. All the others fall either in the middle (CLK,E) or last (current ML,S) in the family. Seems someone is paying attention to the bad press.

     

     

      

    There you have it.

     

    M
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    Who thought that merc1 was dead? ;-)

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  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Word! The lone M signature appeared on my screen first and I managed a double take. Servants… come hither! Slaughter my best pig, prepare my table, pour my finest wine… my son has returned!

     

    Merc… not so sure about the M5 inhaling the segment. That high-revving engine is not for the street. Mercedes has a better formula with point-and-shoot, low-end, flat, monstrous torque curves. Must-have buyers will no doubt kick it off but I don&#146;t think it will run away with sales. E55 is tough to beat in a straight line and there is nothing to indicate that the M5 does it yet. And if it does, it will be done only by skilled drivers. If anyone knows otherwise, please educate me. And the new SMG had better be smooth in auto mode for the businessmen who will represent most of the sales. That said, I have no doubt that it will be the best handling sedan that was ever made. Nice to hear from you. Can we look forward to those Monday morning breakfasts with Merc again?

     

    ;-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You hit the nail on the head with the S and the SLK-like transformation.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    Thank you for your show review. Very insightful. I would have liked to attend, but my Florida blood is way too thin. I am looking forward to seeing the CLS. I believe it is arriving at dealers now.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Welcome back! Some of us were worried about you...why the long absence?

     

    imho I can't understand why the ML doesn't have a third-row option, especially given that it is so much longer than the old model. Lack of a third row will rule it out for many a potential buyer, including me. I also think the R should be offered in a 7/8 seat optional configuration.

     

    Hear any rumors as to when the GS450h might ship?

     

    Do you like the M35/45's exterior styling, other than the rear? Many people think the car is kind of bland.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    Welcome Back, I too thought you packed your bags and left for good.

     

    I'm mixed with the ML. I feel like while the interior is way better than the outgoing model, I don't find it to be outstanding... As for the exterior, I think the front looks way too much like the Kia Sorento... The rear looks good though IMO
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "The lone M signature appeared on my screen first and I managed a double take. Servants… come hither! Slaughter my best pig, prepare my table, pour my finest wine… my son has returned!"

     

    That is too much! Thanks! Good to be back. So nice to be missed.

     

    The M5 and E55: I meant that the M5 will beat the E55/CLS55 in the comparos and anything else upcoming like the Cadillac STS-V. It is now up to the next Audi RS6 to defeat the new M5. I agree totally about the M5 and the street, as I've always said that BMW builds better track cars (M) and Mercedes builds better road (AMG) cars. All the early reviews still say the M5's SMG transmission is no match for a conventional automatic in day to day (automatic mode) driving. Maybe the next generation SMG trans will finally be as smooth, but I doubt it. Saleswise AMG and M cars both sell well and will continue to do so. Mercedes was aware of the hoopla the M5 would get, hence the slightly different tuned CLS55 AMG. In a Auto, Motor und Sport TV comparo the CLS55 was the equal to the M5 in speed and actually won the comparo becuase the M5 is so uncompromsing on the street, as you noted.

     

    As for the 2007 S-Class it had better wow the critics like the SLK has done. Have you seen the praise for this car? Its even built like a Mercedes should be to boot. It even made the oh so important Car and Driver 10 Best list.

     

    "Can we look forward to those Monday morning breakfasts with Merc again?"

     

    But of course.

     

    scottphillip,

     

    Yes the CLS500 has just arrived at dealers with a price of $65,620. It is a stunning car, a complete about face from when I first saw the concept car in 2003.

     

    syswei,

     

    Thanks again, good to be back on the boards. I have a lot to catch up on here, but I suspect I haven't missed much considering the last few pages about the A8 and LS430. Anyway, I like the M35/45 a good deal, better than the RL or GS. With that said it does kinda have that familar Nissan (Japanese) look about it, kinda like a big Altima or something, and that center console is a little in-your-face-but-plain so its no E-Class or A6 as far as styling goes in my book. It does however look better than the new GS. The Acura RL actually a handsome car from the side and back, but the front is pure Accord. None of the three Japanese midsizers are a complete piece when it comes to styling, imo...but the M does come closest.

     

    I've been told over and over that the M-Class won't offer a third row because the upcoming R-Class and G-Glass replacement will both have a third row.

     

    That the Lexus GS450h is a 2007 model year car is all I heard.

     

    princeabubu,

     

    Thanks. I'm just not impressed by the ML though I agree it is an all around better truck than before.

     

    M
  • bobcatmanbobcatman Member Posts: 51
    The new ML is better than the seriously mediocre current one but I'm not easily inpressed or swayed that M.B. is doing better interior wise. The one shown on the Spies site is done in that cheap, drab grey that looks straight out of a 20K Chevy or Pontiac. Materials and execution still look 18K economy car to me Will be tough to be a class leader here, there's so many good alternatives today in this class. The Hybrid Lexi RX400 will be the techno. leader. 15K pre-sold already and long waiting list. Toyota may even overtake GM as the number 1 car maker in the world. Wowzer!

     

    The little SLK is so much better than the old one but this 2-seater market is still soft and very niche, always has been. Too bad they don't offer this level of execution and effort on their bread and butter sedans that pay the bills. S2000 still a sharper handler. Z4 is a bad dream become reality.

     

    The CLS is just a stretched out E class with swoppy rear end Jaguar curves. What's the market purpose of this car I still haven't figured? Another low volume niche car I guess. Sharp racked rear must be real pleasant for the passenger heads. A 4 door billed as a coupe nice try marketing.

     

    The new S class had better be good because new LS will be a show-stopper and they are punching way further up pricewise and performance/technology wise. The apparent finalzed one shown here does not look good. Ugly trunk detailing ridiculed on the 7 series show up here toned down.

     

    The RL could be more dynamic style wise but its the most techno. advanced car of the group as of today. Tuner Mugen just dropped in a 590 hp V8 soley RWD, details on Temple of Vtec. Wicked performance and future potential. Bet Honda is eyeing the upcoming Infiniti Skyline super car in 07 and BMW M models. RL selling very well since Nov. intro. I see zero Accord on the front maybe A pillar similarity but same can be said of the lowly C class to the S. The A-Spec version looks tight.

     

    The VW Phaeton could be the biggest blunder at VW as of late not counting others. Even one of the CEO's said it's destined to failure. Wrong car at the wrong time auto anaylists say. The ultimate lease car of the group. The Jetta might as well have the Toyota logo on front/back. The interior looks nice though. Mazda 3 still the segemnt leader till the all new Civic rolls out this fall.

     

    The new Infiniti duos are going to be segment defining leaders. They are pulling out all the cards. Their getting very postive press and reviews already for the M35/45. A Japanese BMW 5 killer could be? Interiors look way dialed up quality wise and feature wise. The new GS should be interesting, richer interior materials and new direct injection engines coming and AWD should make for much improved driving and new sport suspension chassis. Caddy asking $60K for the STS get real!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Glad to *see* that you are well and in good health. Welcome back, buddy !

     

    Thanks for a well-written auto show report. Can you comment more on the new S style-wise ? Did you see the LF-S in the Lexus stand ? Any whisper on the LF-X ? I know you probably don't care for anything Lexus, but maybe you did hear something.

     

    I have a colleague of mine here at work. His current ride is a '99 528i. He plans to change by next year and wants a non-Bimmer, but within the same class. What will you recommend ? He already drove the new A6 and he likes it, but troubled about reliability issues. I suggested the '05 TL, '06 GS, '05 E500, '05 A6 4.2, or wait for the '06 M35. How would you rank these cars ?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Infinity Q35 or something in the Acura line?
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    The next S class (all pics I have seen) looks bad. The A8, BORING, and the 7 series well we all know how that looks....

     

    The Bentley Flying Spur, class, dual turbo 12 cyl power, and top technology along with the classic interior and the biggest trunk!

     

    http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3100.asp?id=12305

     

    Best wheel design for this car is at the www.bentleymotors.com website. Agressive looks particularly in a dark color.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Merc1, let me add my voice also in welcoming you back. But what happened? Were you banned?

     

    One technical question. In your Show report and in some of your much earlier posts you ran over to a second post with a "to be continued". Why? Is there a max line or max character limit per post?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Wow, I never expected a "welcome back" from you, means a lot considering the battles we've had.

     

    Anyway while I don't care anything about Lexus like I do the Euro brands, they are competition and one must always follow the competition's movements. The didn't have the LF-S but I did see the LF-A, and except for the front end the car is pretty good for a Lexus. I especially like the exposed rear cooling fans..pure aggression. They did have the LF-X there too if thats the smaller IS300 hinting concept from last year. I personally found it to be lacking.

     

    About your friend's choices....me personally without having driven the M35/45 I'd naturally recommend the E500 or the A6 4.2 and then the M45. The Acura TL doesn't play in this league. Did you mean the RL? If so I'd still take the M45 V8 because for the same 50K the Inifniti will run rings around the RL with better styling, more room and the same technology. The only think the RL has over the M45 is awd. I couldn't place the GS due to the look, I personally wouldn't be able to stand looking at it, and the car doesn't appear to getting any changes under the hood of the V8 version. If he wants Euro go for the E or A6, but if reliability is too much of a concern go for the M45...imo the only Japanese car in the segment that is truly outstanding, at least so far.

     

    I'm glad you liked the show report.

     

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I see everyone has made up their mind and drawn conclusions about the next S-Class even before having seen one official picture.

     

    That said, in the spy photos I've seen I don't like the rear end treatment and that generc sash line down the sides. That line is way to common on many lesser vehicles and should be on a Mercedes-Benz.

     

    I'll wait until the official pics though because just like the 1996 E-Class and 2001 C-Class didn't look at all right in spy photos they came out just right so I'll wait and see.

     

    M

     
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for the welcome, and yes there is a limit to size of a post.

     

    jstyle,

     

    I find the sedan just as unattractive as the Coupe version. On paper the specs are impressive, but considering how the Continental GT Coupe got its clock cleaned by the lowly CL600 in a recent comparo I hardly think it will do anything against the next AMG S-Class, rumored to have at least 500hp, and in Europe is there is already a 604hp S65 AMG.

     

    M
  • bobcatmanbobcatman Member Posts: 51
    Wow the LF-A is surely happening, big bucks around $125K according to Danny Clemens. Wonder if Honda has a trick up their sleeve with the NSX? They sure can't let it sit like it is and get passed up by everyone.

     

    http://autocar.co.uk/news_article.asp?na_id=213118
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Almost fell off my chair. Where the heck have you been. I thought our 4 year marriage was over. Was really worried about you. Glad your back buddy. But we may need to send you for medical tests. I mean you said something good stylewise about a possible Lexus sports car.

     

    I'm too into football to talk cars right now and I'm still trying to get over the Jets with their textbook UNRELIABLE ways on how to set up a winning field goal.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Merc1:

     

    I am truly glad to see you back here. You are an asset to this community regardless of how much we disagree.

     

    Thanks for the input on the car choice for my friend. I'll pass on.

     

    Already he told me he has test-driven the A6 4.2 which he likes a lot, especially the new design. He doesn't care a hoot for a Lexus. Won't even consider one, period. He is a Frenchie and thus Euro-biased! His BMW experience has certainly ended any prospect of ever owning a Bimmer. He will consider the M35 which is in his price range ($40K-ish). He said the RL is too big (and priced out of his range), hence the TL is a probability. He will also consider the E as well. Anyway, he has sometime to wait for the ideal replacement.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Well I guess the opinions will flow again...Tony
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That thing is an abomination. Toyota needs to find a clue with exterior styling. If I didn't know better I would think it is the next Celica. I can't recall a period when auto styling was worse. It's like someone is offering a trillion dollar prize for the ugliest line of vehicles.

     

    Ljflx... I go back to the NY Titans. Saw them at the Polo Grounds their first year. Jets with Woody Johnson and Edwards are in a period of mediocrity that may not end until we are 75, maybe 85.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Like St. Paul on the road to Damascus, I had an epiphany tonight. I finally got it. I figured out the attraction of Lexus. It took me some time to figure this out because of lots of cultural baggage. But in the end it is simple. People who buy high end sedans want them to work as well and as hard as they do. They also don't want to overpay by 20K or so. ( High net worth people, except for those in a few limited access professions, have a strong aversion to over paying.) Finally, they don't want to be treated rudely by people who now no longer have much to be rude about.

     

    Simply put, the Lexus works, it's priced right and the customer service is excellent. The big Lexus is to a German sedan what the 240Z was to all of those 4 cylinder, hard to start, no HVAC, slow British sports cars of the late '60s. (Interestingly enough, a lot of today's MB/BMW/Jag/Lexus owners were just getting into the car market when the Datsun 240Z absolutely blew away the British sports car industry. At a time when a valve job was de rigeur at 50,000 miles on a 4 cylinder Brit engine, the 240Z engine--a dead ringer for a Chev Stovebolt 6-- could take you out to 150,000 miles with just oil changes. You could leave Ft Devens,MA in the AM and report in to the 82d Abn at Ft Bragg, NC that night--remember we were all 23 then, something that you wouldn't even dream of doing in three full days in an MG.)

     

    Now does this mean the end of the high end German sedan? Yes, but only as we know it. In time Lexus will stumble, the market will be a marvelous correcting force and MB and BMW will come back with new business models and maybe even a new German player (e.g., a Porsche sedan?).
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Interesting. I thought I was the only old goat around here (even though none of these guys are spring chickens). When I drive a Porsche sedan I can die in peace.
  • paldipaldi Member Posts: 210
    A Porsche Phaeton? Fun!
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