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Comments
As to Lexuses getting preferential treatment over Rolls in valets, please, that's a bit too much. Put it down to parking spot dynamics, not to general car superiority or something.
You're happy with your car, great. But I'll never "graduate" to a car that stimulates my senses about as much as watching paint dry on a closet. I am more than happy with what I have, only I am not on a mission to make you accept it is some superior choice.
So what.
Mercedes-Benz has the #1 tradition. Do they let you forget it?
Audi has the most discretion. How do you think they feel while they are not worrying about what you think?
BMW has the best driving cars. The rest of us might as well be driving Hyundais.
Jaguar has the most heritage. It means a lot to Jaguar owners.
Something doesn't become a fact instead of an opinion because a car journalist says it.
Sorry for the ranting.
Pablo, I submit it is the Benz fans who become defensive. Read the S-Class board (which I'm sure you do) and the myriad reports of problems and noises and dealer service nightmares, etc. When that is pointed out, they usually become defensive of their choice. They shouldn't be and neither should we Lexus owners. We're probably beating this into the ground, but we all made our choices for our personal reasons and tend to share them across brands. I'm happy for blehrlich, for instance, that he got a trouble-free S Class. My personal point is, that he is lucky. Many more did not (read the posts - these are S Class owners saying these things). In the case of the Lexus, I get virtually all the features of the MB and none of the problems. My interior is far nicer and my exterior isn't a problem for me. The handling isn't far behind the Benz, but isn't that important. And I, for one, am not on a mission to force your acceptance of a Lexus. You have diff. priorities and I honor that. ljflx is obviously passionate about his choice - a car which you state has no passion. I am also passionate about my choice. Every time I drive it, I thoroughly enjoy it. Maybe for different reasons than you, but it inspires my passion. I note your honest admission that the Lexus is a fine automobile, except for the exterior styling which also inhibits the BMW. I am sure the Bimmer fans would disagree. Passion, as beauty, is where each of us finds it. And I hope I don't sound "defensive" when I say I didn't find it necessary to spend an extra $20k for it. Because I would have.
NEVER)
As to the post about the Rolls - give me a break. Of course it was attributable to parking dynamics. The point wasn't that a Lexus is more prestigious than a Rolls or any other luxury car -only that it is viewed as a prestigious car by the outside world.
I would be thrilled if my wife chose a LS430 when her Landcruiser lease is up (soon) so that I could drive both.
I don't believe at all in the premise of any car being better than another. It's a better choice for something/somebody, period. I do dislike silly pontification and overly tedious "this is how wonderful my car is" tales.
And I certainly won't be trying to convince myself my Jag ranks up there with a Ferrari or Rolls in ultimate uniqueness, luxurious excess or prestige. I'll leave that to one delusionary LS owner, it seems. Who in a further display of balanced objectivity told me I had to "graduate to a Lexus".
These are *all* fantastic cars. I know several S-class owners, and am not aware of any abysmal reliability record. But I also won't dispute the fact that Lexuses have achieved legendary dependability, and that is a powerful asset.
In each and every one of my messages, I have pointed out I am highly aware the Lexus is a phenomenal car, first and foremost, and simply pointed out the style critique that is an entirely personal and ultimately meaningless impression.
You go on to say that "What it does not have is any impact on the other, and multiple, car's qualities." True again -- qualities such as class-leading build quality and reliability, which most definitely ARE quantifiable.
Fact is, Mercedes has always been very conservative until recently, with the exception of the SL series, and I see nothing wrong with that. BMW has always had an Italian flair to my eye, which is something I really love about them, and still do. And while I truly wish Lexus would dsign a more exciting LS430, it is a car I would be unlikely to buy in the first place -- I'd go for the GS400 (performance) or SC430 (style) instead -- neither of which can be construed as bland.
"Our now departed arcoates, for one, roundly chastised us all for listening to the journalists".
Let me make it very clear that never did I chastise anyone for listening to journalists. I rely heavily upon them to educate me on new cars, because I can't possibly drive all of the myself. More than once I quoted a car magazine, so it would be more accurate to say that I chastised someone for NOT listening to them. And the fact is, that all of the ones I read do not favour the LS over anything else in this class. But I'm not back here to argue again. In the future, please don't put words into my mouth. Thanks~ A.R.
As to "quality" being quantifiable, or even reliability, that is up to debate. You know what they say about lies, damn lies and statistics. They are infomrational, but they are not the ultimate tool. And I have yet to truly hear the Mercedes S-class has reliability problems. Mercedes' reputation for durability doesn't come from nowhere. My mother still drives her '81 240D, and having taken care of it it looks and works pristinely with well over 150k miles on it. It's *never* broken down. Lexus has a while to go until it establishes such a long-lived track record. Yes, this is surrounded, too, by perception and thus a gray area.
People also simply decide on trade-offs they are going to make. Jaguar sure doesn't have the long lived reputation for reliability, but to me at this point they are more than reliable enough. I can get lucky or have bad luck with *any* car brand. I *do* know a Lexus GS400 owner that has had persistent gremlins in his car. There is always one out there.
Nothing is quite as "factual" and "established" as we often would like to think.
Buying a car simply is not a scientific process. Particularly not when you spend this much money - it is an irrational process to start with. We all decide on one of these cars because we buy into some more intangible, intuition and passion based value proposition.
They are all amazing displays of craftmanship and engineering.
you understand that car design is a matter of objective elements. Your objective criteria get replaced with "It's all personal style" when you talk about Lexus.
I think you should reconsider the car magazine Lexus double-speak about Lexus styling. Lexus is the most unoriginal design in the world. If it is not original, it came from somewhere else.
Can it be criticized for not being commited to design legacy when the legacy it would be committed to is its own? What legacy is that?
The 1990 Lexus was derived from Mercedes. The new one?
The car is so perfect it is boring. The opposite of perfect is flawed. Is perfection boring? Is flawed exciting?
I know car magazines mean "something" but "I'm bored with perfection." is very cynical.
I know it's 11 years old but do you think Lexus has to establish itself for reliablity and durability?
Car decisions might be personal, subjective, and irrational, but when you look at Lexus what you see is a "blank slate". You have yet to hear of recurring reliablity problems in the S Class?
Mercedes has an established reputation for durability but Lexus doesn't have a track record?
Is reputation qualitative and track record quantifiable? I enjoy your posts but you seem to keep changing the terms of your argument when it comes to Lexus.
Lexus is just as valid a choice and contender for automobile excellence as anyone else. I do not dispute that.
And that is as far as the objectivity goes.
Everything that follows is far more murky. The concept of style is a matter of personal preference. Sure car designers set themselves goals, and I mentioned a few messages back those objectives seem to be becoming more and more similar. I did not really single out Lexus. I mentioned Audi and BMW do little for *my* eye, too. And that the next generation Jag seems to look bland.
And my personal perception is that, yes, Mercedes has taken risks in their latest designs, and given where the car industry stands, I have to applaud that. Am I a huge fan of the S-class and thus biased? Why would I have bought a Jaguar XJR then? I jyst call it as I see it, personally, and try to stay objective.
I am *not* a Lexus basher at all. I have said about 20 times I think it a phenomenal car, but the fact I don't *like* the lines of the design is taken as an attack against the brand, when in fact I state all along it is utterly irrelevant.
And yes, I do not think relaibility *problems* with the S-class are an established fact. Mind you, personally I think the reliability reputation of German cars is not quite justified anymore - they certainly do not stand head and shoulders aboive everybody else anymore. And my personal BMW experience was not devoid of gremlins. Great car, but it did act up a few times. More than the Citroen 2CV I owned as a student. But that is all such circumstancial evidence...
What *is* important is service. I hear Lexus offers great service, and that is key to the luxury segment. I do think Mercedes and BMW have bogged their service departments' excellence down with too many models. My wife has a Mercedes (and she is totally happy), but I know the Jaguar service department is a more pleasant experience. Might easily change when they come out with the X type.
And most definitely Lexus does not have one thing - tradition. It might be important to some, immaterial to others. But hey, all companies got started somewhere, and personally I have no doubt that 20 years down the line Lexus will have a legendary tradition of excellence.
Oh, and I should mention I think the SC430 styling is gutsy, so kudos to Lexus for that. Looks somewhat odd now, which might very well mean it'll turn into a classic.
Lexus is a valid choice (contender, whatever).
That is where the objectivity ends.
It didn't even start. I don't see how it can end.
-Lexus copied the Mercedes (twice).
-Whether the S Class has recurring problems or not is not a matter of opinion.
-Lexus has established a reputation for reliability and durability.
-Styling is not subjective. Whether you like it or not is subjective.
Mercedes never has a problem and Lexus has to prove itself? It sounds like a double standard to me.
BTW, the Pontiac Aztec is gutsy, odd, risk- taking, and not bland. I hope the SC430 has something else going for it.
"You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's."
Not trying to re-ignite an argument, I was just making a point in a healthy debate.
And I can't recall saying the Aztec and the SC430 share anything. You are making your own argument up.
But, I rely heavily upon such publications as Edmunds.com, CAR, Automobile, and Road and Track for my info. And what I read, Lexus has definetly stepped up, but is not the best out there.~ A.R.
And as you can imagine, even though I am not a big fan of the Aztek design, I do think it a great thing that car manufacturers go for more distinct designs.
And no one doubts the SC430 is a phenomenal car. Very desirable convertible, if I was in the market for a top convertible right now, the Lex would be up there among the 2-3 finalists.
pablo: You've never impressed me as being unreasonable, so I don't know what you've said to provoke some of the people here; that said, your comment that "Mercedes' reputation for durability doesn't come from nowhere...Lexus has a while to go until it establishes such a long-lived track record" is partly true -- Mercedes had a reputation for years as the most durable car on the planet, until Lexus raised the bar with their very first LS400. It's been over ten years now, which I think is more than adequate time to establish the validity of people's perceptions about Lexus quality.
Ok. This is the right answer.
This is what you meant in 728. where you also said "don't mix in comments from someone else".
I did not mix in comments from someone else when I talked about your comments.
'And, visually, I see no similarit- between the Lex430 and the MercS class.' 700
These are your comments.
Did I say you said that Mercedes copied Lexus?
Here's what I meant when I said"You did not offer comment about Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment on it when I brought it up. " 729 :
You did not bring up [the subject] of Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment [on the subject] when I brought it up (see above) and you implied that it was not the case.
Mercedes was daring. Lexus was bland.
If Lexus copied Mercedes, both would have to be daring or bland, since we were talking about the
styling- the objective facts of the styling (the ones that you did not see), daring styling, bland styling- not the same thing.
When I bring it up, you change your tune.
'I'm sure they do, so what.'
Some human kindness might be in order. My post was reconciliatory. My post was friendly. Maybe you can spend 10 seconds thinking about what
other people might reasonalby mean instead of insisting on what YOU REALLY mean all the time and calling people "defensive" when they get frustrated.
I apologize to the board for boring you to death
And I am not sure where you go with the Lexus copying Mercedes argument. I seem to sense you mean that since I mentioned the new Mercedes S class is daring, to *you* Lexus copied from Mercedes and thus must be considered a refreshing design, too. On this matter, all personal opinions are qually valid. But to me the new Lex LS430 looks a lot like the old LS400, and not at all like a new Merc S-class. That is just my opinion, and not something I want to try to establish as universal law.
And a close friend of mind works in a Jag dealership (you know you've bought to many cars and paid too much for them when your sales guy becomes one of your close friends...!), and he tells me things *suck* in the luxury car sales sector. Our CEO wanted to buy some spceial 7-series Beemer, and was initially told he'd have to wait a year, now he gets calls with a discounted offer every week... :-)
Although everyone seems to think the BMW is the ultimate performance machine, I just did not like its understated exterior appearance and its "feel every bump in the road" suspension. I'm more of a luxury and style guy than sheer performance freek.
As for the Lexus, I agree that they have helped "raise the bar" in luxury car performance, but something about seeing "Toyota" stamped all over component parts under the hood just turned me off. In addition, I am a tall guy and did not seem to have the same head and leg room in the Lexus.
As for the Audi and the Jag, they were not even serious considerations because of reputations for mechanical problems. I admit these reputations may be no longer warranted, but everyone has heard the stories about Jags being in the shop all the time and I have friends who have owned Audis in the past who had frequent problems.
Maybe it's just my low class upbringing, but I can't seem to recall seeing a Saudi prince or a European Monarch riding in a Lexus, but I have seen quite a few in a Mercedes. Need I say more?
Ejerod - I'm still a lot better off in the market than out of it over a three year period but I'd love to have the past year back.
escargo - LS 430 is more roomy for front passengers but the S-Class should be more roomy in back given the extra 7 inches of car length. LS430, believe it or not, has more trunk room if that would have mattered to you.
A lot of it also has to do with the color choice of the interior. Perception often is not entirely captured in numbers.
A lot of it also has to do with the color choice of the interior. Perception often is not entirely captured in numbers.
As to your comment that "Maybe it's just my low class upbringing, but I can't seem to recall seeing a Saudi prince or a European Monarch riding in a Lexus, but I have seen quite a few in a Mercedes. Need I say more?"
No, you don't -- you said it all yourself.
The Aston Martin on Sat
The Ferrari Barchetta on Sun
The Bentley Arnage on Mon
The Rolls Silver Spur on Tue
etc etc
Just two or three measly luxury cars won't do. :-)
Crown is the upmarket version of Toyota in Japan I believe
I would think that Lexus will be getting a V12 in the coming years..