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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Does the fact that the LS430 starts at 56K compared to 70K+ plus for the S-Class have anything to do with this at all? I'm not even saying it is the sole reason, that it is a factor. Everyone doesn't lease.

     

    To the contrary, you've always used this as the SOLE reason. But its same old tired excuses, again, Merc1. C'mon.... Give it up. Why is MB priced so high ? Do you factor that in as well ? The MSRP on these MBs are simply *asking* prices. The real-world prices are often much lower. The LS430/UL delivers all that an S430/S500 has (except 4matic) for $15-20K less.

     

    Let's turn this around. Would you not expect higher-priced, higher brand image, more diverse offerings, and higher status MBs to have higher profit margins ? I guess business and financial performance doesn't matter to DCX or their investors..... according to Merc1 and other MB fans. Who cares if the company makes money ! These cars will always be there. Always have the $$$ to invest in R&D. Always have the $$$ for the innovation and improvement necessary to maintain market share. Do you need money to do all these ? Of course not, according to some of you MB fans....

      

    Just continue to ignore the bottom-line, and the top-line disappears... and poof !
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Wrong again my friend I have said from day one that price was but one factor in sales of LS over the other cars it competes with.

     

    I personally couldn't care less why they are priced higher as that wasn't the subject of the debate. Real world prices, transaction prices aren't going to erase a 15-20K price difference, which is a lot even by your estimation.

     

    I'm not a DCX shareholder so this whole conversation is mute to me, I like the cars. Call me simple. I have ideas about the products and how to improve them, but the business side is not my things so let them handle it.

     

    BTW, I'm looking at your post about the LS' history. The first model ran from 1990-1994, not 1995. The 1995-2000 model was a different car. Shame on you for not knowing this........lol!

     

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    BTW, I'm looking at your post about the LS' history. The first model ran from 1990-1994, not 1995. The 1995-2000 model was a different car. Shame on you for not knowing this........lol!

     

    Shame on me indeed :) Thanks for the correction.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think we know where everyone stands on Mercedes, Lexus, styling, reliability, who will whip who and nothing has changed, but I think the forum needs to move in another direction. This is lame and I'm getting sick of arguing about the same stuff. No amount of talk about Mercedes styling, hp or anything else will convert the Lexus folk and no amount of surveys, financial talk about Lexus will make me want an actual car from Lexus or anyone else.

     

    We really do need to move one to something else? Don't we? I did attend the Chicago Auto Show Friday if anyone wants to hear about it?

     

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    There also seems to be a big misconception and only on this board that a Chrysler 300 is a Mercedes E-Class.

     

    The Chrysler 300 uses Mercedes parts and/or engineering principles, not an entire E-Class platform. Chrylser basically took what they needed from the 1996-2002 E-Class an adapted it to the 300. The seat frames, some switchgear, suspension design and layout (not actual parts) and some other under the skin things that 99 percent of buyers won't even have a clue about. Chrysler also used steel in place in of aluminum in places like the suspension to keep costs down, which is why you can get a 340hp 300C for 33K. There is no way to transplant an entire E-Class down to 33K with an 340hp V8 engine, even if it is a pushrod V8. The basic 300 models can be had for around 25K, hardly a E-Class transplant implied here by the uninformed.

     

    What Chrylser did is very similar, but not the same as what Ford did with the Volvo S80/XC90 platform to create the 500 and Freestyle. Ford however left more Volvo DNA in their products than Chryler did with Mercedes.

     

    The only Chrysler that really is an Mercedes in different dress is the Crossfire, and its is a 1998-2004 SLK, not the 2005 model.

     

    For the search engine types there are many sources on the net about this to clear up the confusion.

     

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I knew this day would come again. Classic Monday morning.

     

    I have only one thing to say that has not been mentioned before. When I see a Lexus pimpmobile, they truly will have made it to the top of the status heap. And don't laugh because this, I believe, is why Camp Lexus fights so tenaciously. They have the price, awards, reliability and cars they are happy with, but they want the status to go along with it—something MB has had for a real long time. Sure, they don't "need" status, but it still eludes the brand nonetheless, and they feel they deserve it because afterall, Lexus is the thinking man's car and, indeed, they are smart thinking people.

     

    Trust me, look for that LS pimpmobile. And please, let's not take this too seriously.

     

    ;-)
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    hey...it wasn't my post. i found another post

    with my screen name on it on another thread last night. i don't know how someone posted under my name but at least they agreed with me! are MB buyers "not thinking men" and now "liars"!

     

    when it comes to whether the German brands sell more lower priced vehicles or higher...it doesn't matter. they still offer high end luxury vehicles with many more options and drive train combinations. this is but one thing that separates the Germans from Lexus. basically Lexus makes 1,ONE,UNO... LS. that has to make it cheaper to manufacture.

     

    as for Lexus not being in Japan. until this past year all of the Lexus vehicles were sold under the Toyota name.

    as for Lexus in Europe. they've been there awhile and have not had much success.

     

    when it comes to dissecting corporate financial so as to validate the purchase of an automobile....do you do that when you buy a couch or a washer machine? where is the automobile enthusiast side of the equation? how about being excited by the car you purchase? this seems to be missing completely.

     

    like i posted before...the LS was updated in the front end mainly i believe because the car looked prematurely dated.

     

    when it comes to price point....don't think for a second that the price of the LS compared to the S class isn't what drives a lot of people to purchase the LS. it's cheaper... lower payment.

    this more than anything will decide for most people which car they are going to buy.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,

     Toyota prices the LS for less because it's more efficient to begin with. The TPS mantra they follow is the best in the industry. They fully utilize the benefits of platform sharing and not offering numerous engine types..Hence their strong financials. Their cars are built primarly by robots, hence avoiding the union worker mess the Germans have to deal with..Basic economics will tell you the most efficient producer is the most profitable one. We all know the most expensive item isn't the "Best" one..

     

    My citing of financials is to show that the Toyota/Lexus philosophy has proven its superiority in the market. You can't argue with 12 Billion in revenues. And yes, I wouldn't buy anything that was from a troubled manufacturer..It's common knowledge that people tend to avoid troubled airlines such as US Airways in favor of healthier ones like Southwest..It's basic consumer psychology. Would I buy a Maytag Neptune Washing Machine if the company were in trouble..No? A car isn't a $100 purchase that you would ignore these things..

     

    Lexus was originally developed for the US market solely..They might offer their cars in Europe, but these cars were designed with the US consumer in mind..That will change soon as Toyota seeks to give Lexus its own identity.

     

    All Lexus cars run on a 6 year cycle. At year 3 they recieve a minor refresh..This has happened in 1993, 1998, and 2004 with the LS..Nothing new here. What about BMW? They've just done the same thing..Only Jaguar leaves their cars untouched for nearly ten years..Who can blame them? They make the best looking cars on the road.

     

    I could care less about the prestige part. I would buy an older Rolls if I wanted that. Better yet, I'd pick an off lease Jaguar Vanden Plas, a car with an exterior and interior look that trumps anything out there. Actually that's what I'm planning on doing, as a off lease XJ8 is probably one of the best buys out there. With a Select Edition Warranty I'd have no problem taking one home.

     

    What is the Lexus allure? It's the luxury car that almost makes sense to own from all objective views. I have better things to do with my money than to blow it on a car just because of looks! It had better make sense logically to buy that car..And the Lexus LS has done that for me for over 13 years! It's easy on my wallet (Can't argue with 18K every 3 yrs for a new one), drives great, has the best electronics in the industry, and is a general pleasure to own. For me, piece of mind is far more important than "Looks"

     

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "My citing of financials is to show that the Toyota/Lexus philosophy has proven its superiority in the market. You can't argue with 12 Billion in revenues. And yes, I wouldn't buy anything that was from a troubled manufacturer..It's common knowledge that people tend to avoid troubled airlines such as US Airways in favor of healthier ones like Southwest..It's basic consumer psychology. Would I buy a Maytag Neptune Washing Machine if the company were in trouble..No? A car isn't a $100 purchase that you would ignore these things.."

     

    Yet people do just that. Who in the world thinks like that when buying a car unless the company is reportedly like 2 steps from being out of business or leaving the U.S. market? Mercedes isn't close to either. People don't walk into a car showroom and ask how the company is doing if they want the car. People still buy Jaguars, VWs, Saabs, Mercedes and Chryslers no matter how much trouble their repsective companies are in. The only companies that are in that type of trouble are Isuzu and Mitsubishi (maybe). This thinking that buyers are incorporating some type of corporate health check into their buying decision is a pure fantasy by Lexus owners/fans on this board. All made up with no basis in reality. If people really thought like that no company that has ever been in trouble would ever recover. Audi in 1992 sold 12K units and was written off. They turned it around by sheer product. All this corporate isn't going to make a Lexus any more appealing, in fact it only enhances the boring image that Lexus itself has seen fit to try and change. A tuner arm, the so-called L-Finesse styling initiative, and 400hp hybrids should be touted if one wants to make the brand appeal to those who find it boring, not corporate talk about balances sheets.

     

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'll ask again, why do S and A8 owners like their cars less than LS and 7 owners? Why do they seem to be less "enthusiastic"? And if they aren't happy with their cars, even apart from the quality issues, what is going to happen to the S's worldwide sales "dominance"?

     

    Data from this site:

    http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp

      

    ...call up the 2004 A8, 7, S, and LS. You'll find that, even ignoring the quality-related issues and focusing instead on performance, comfort, features, style, and overall appeal, actual owners of A8s and Ss DON'T like their cars all that much, on average, whereas owners of 7s and LSs DO.

     

    It seems to me that the LS and 7 are "on a higher level" than the S and A8.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    It might be necessary to click on the "Auto" icon and then click on "Automobile Ratings" to get at the right screen, which asks you to "Pick your cars".
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,

     

    I wasn't saying that MB is on the verge on insolvency. But these sort of things contribute to the buyer's decision. I just picked up a Financial Times detailing MB's profit and reliability issues..Are you saying this has NO impact whatsoever on the public? Why would a reputed newspaper like the Times bother to report it then? Regardless of what you say, people to pay attention to the likes of the FT, Consumer Reports and JDP. Every time one of their surveys come out it's plastered all over the media. People don't just blindly buy cars just because it's "Pretty."

     

    Actually people do think like that..It was a primary reason for the demise of Pan Am..Much of the flying public "worried" whether it was safe to book with them. Travel agents hesitated to book on them. Eastern was another example in the Lorenzo years..They were fined for various safety issues and paid dearly for it in terms of bookings..Like it or not, negative media reports do affect people's thinking..If Lexus were to have repeated recalls I'd think twice about it.

     

    Actually that Fuel Pump and Transmission issue is a known one, they recalled a bunch of LS430's last year...If you want to go that route, you'll still see Lexus trumps every German nameplate in that respect. Oddly enough Lexus took each car back did the repair and returned it cleaned with a full tank of gas..If that wasn't enough a $200 gas card was sent to each customer..I just got an apology from Lexus about the '02 I traded b/c of some issue with the Lexus Link that I never even knew about..With that apology came a $50 gas card!! That's called committment to the customer. Lexus stands behind their product, pure and simple.

     

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "But these sort of things contribute to the buyer's decision. I just picked up a Financial Times detailing MB's profit and reliability issues..Are you saying this has NO impact whatsoever on the public? Why would a reputed newspaper like the Times bother to report it then? Regardless of what you say, people to pay attention to the likes of the FT, Consumer Reports and JDP.

     

    We've been over this before too, and saying that people pay attention to JDP and CR is a given, but that doesn't have anything to do with a company's corporate health. Yes a many people do use CR and JDP in the buying decisions. Yet even with all the JDP and CR stuff "plastered all over the media" BMW and Mercedes both had record years in this very country last year? Either some here take these surveys too seriously or thousands of buyers couldn't care less. What is the explanation behind this? Some people actually buy BMWs, Audis, and MBs because that is the car they want knowing full well what the surveys say. There is proof of that right here on Edmunds for all three brands.

     

    I myself would have expected MB in particular to suffer a sales drop back in 2002-2003 when it seemed like every month there was a new damaging article about quality, but they didn't.

     

    Nor is there is there any evidence to support that a bad press in the WSJ/FT about a car company's balance sheet or earnings has stopped buyers from buying a Mercedes, VW, Chrysler or any other troubled car company. Absoulutely none. Again except for maybe Isuzu and Mitusbishi. The former, Isuzu has been reported to be leaving by several sources, though they say they aren't. That type of press would deter me from buying one of their cars for sure, but to say that is happening with MB is pure fantasy.

     

    People worry about flyng has nothing to do buying a car.

     

    The Times reports and publishes a story because they can. They also do it for the same reason anyone else does, because this is a hot subject to them....still doesn't mean it matters or that everyone considers it the bible.

     

    Now if there is some survey and/or evidence that buyers are monitoring the corporate health of a company and/or it plays a role in their buying decision I'd like to read about it. Not the reliability surveys, I'm talking about the balances sheet, CEO changes and corporate health stuff so often hyped here, making a difference in actual buyers decisions. Where is the proof of this mattering so much? It surely isn't in the 2004 sales totals for BMW or MB.

     

    If this were so true then buyers would have ignored Audi, Nissan, and now Chrysler's newest products to the point where they wouldn't have been able to turn themselves around or at least start to do so.

     

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    imho both side here have some valid points. I mostly agree with merc1 that financial performance has little impact on most people's current buying decisions, except in those cases where one might question whether the company will be around in 5-10 years to service your car, which isn't the case with MB. However, there might be a very few potential buyers who might wonder, "if I buy an MB now, will corporate profit pressures somehow affect me down the road? Might MB find some way to cut costs/increase revenue in a way that hurts me after I buy the car?" For instance, what if MB raised parts prices significantly in order to shore up the bottom line, and I needed some replacement parts?

     

    It is also true, as others have pointed out, that near-term profitability issues may impact what happens, product-wise, down the road. For instance we could see cost cutting in R&D, or fewer product variations, or more parts sharing with Chrysler, that might not be welcomed by MB buyers.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    you stated: This thinking that buyers are incorporating some type of corporate health check into their buying decision is a pure fantasy by Lexus owners/fans on this board. All made up with no basis in reality.

     

    To the ultra-high end buyer, maybe the financials don't matter as much bcos what they are buying is the name and the cache recognition. Afterall, how practical is a Bentley Arnage or a Ferrari Enzo for everyday driving ?

     

    But the 99% of the market that all MBs play in has a lot of savvy buyers who spends time checking out the facts about the car they are buying and who is behind the car. MB is losing market share because the savvy buyer has wised up to the over-priced and loss of shine of the MB badge, hence the poor financials. When the buying public rejects MBs for Lexus, Audis, BMWs, or whatever else meets their needs, then MBs financials reflect that. And if you cannot see the direct correlation in that simple fact, then I guess this debate is truly pointless.

     

    Companies that produce goods to the market live and die by their products' acceptance in the market. When the market sours on a product, that's its death knell. Mitsu and Isuzu are in trouble bcos their products suck (except for a few), no one wants them, and they've got bad management. If MBs follow the trails blazed by these aforementioned companies, it will go the same route. That simple.

     

    How difficult is that to understand ???
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Let's just be basic about this ok. First - The type of buyers we are talking about indeed monitor businesses and how they are doing because many are business people in the first place. It's in the news and in your face and unavoidable as often it's on the front page. When you read those things you give a lot of thought to a business' financial health before you pluck down $70-100K on a vehicle. Second - The reliability that you have such a hard time dealing with has hurt your brand enormously. Third - As another poster pointed out so well, many of MB's 1mln car sales are much lower end cars with thin profit margins that they wouldn't even bring here. So the loss of momemtum in the US market is a killer for them. Last - financial problems severely restrict future movement. At a time when competition is about to go worldwide from an incredibly strong company that surpassed their US unit sales and profits in less than 10 years with half the bandwidth that is a serious issue to have to deal with. It's worse when you have the costliest production in the world and are putting out a product that gets poor reliability ratings that are sinking lower and lower each year. It's worse still when that company has targeted you, is very wealthy and is about to get quite aggressive scaling up what had been a narrow bandwidth attack.

     

    You look to the past and a handful of performance cars and think MB will hold its status icon forever because of who they are. I look at the future and view it from a business angle and see a totally different picture. And as I said earlier business is littered with former number 1's that have dropped many notches. It was well over a year ago that their sales started to drop and both of us said let's see if it continues. It's worsened in unit sales and in the fact that they have had to drop prices to keep the sales from slipping even more. They haven't dropped MSRP's but that's like looking at the Prime rate as a true business interest rate. It's easy to prop up dollar sales - you do it with subsidies that show up as expenses and a P&L that then overstates revs and expenses. The proof of the pudding of the real problems here show up in the type of leadership now sought and a barely profitable business.

     

    I am hardly saying MB is going bankrupt. They will recover at some point but it will take longer than anyone thinks. It always does. But when they recover it will be at a lower point than their height and they will lose that number 1 mantra - in my opinion. Unlike the long path to recoverability, losing a number one spot almost always happens quicker than expected and as a surprise to many. Don't count me in that last group when it happens.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,268
    that you are wrong about the typical high-end buyer... Maybe your view is tinted by being here on Edmunds..

     

    I think most buyers of any make, do little or no research on the car they buy, and have no idea how the corporate parent is doing...

     

    Other than Mitsubishi, I can't think of a single car company doing business in the U.S., that I would be worried about...

     

    regards,

    kyfdx

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  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    i find it odd the vitriolic responses directed at MB and the other German automakers. MB makes great cars. for anyone to claim that MB is on its last gasp and that Lexus...a brand that basically only existed in the USA until this past year is going to surpass MB in desirability is just crazy. Lexus has made some great strides in the USA. they are the perfect Buick. when it comes to luxury, technical innovations, progresses in safety and design MB has nothing to fear. oh wait i almost forgot...Lexus does have water repellent glass!!!

    like i said earlier....it seems to me that the people who purchase a Lexus need MB to fail so they feel validated in their purchase.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Quite to the contrary - it seems you need to put down Lexus to feel a brand supremacy. Just go back and read your last post. Where did you see any of us put down the cars that MB is building other than to say they have done badly in reliability studies. What is being said here are factual results, unless of course you think the Financial Times, The NY Times, CR, JDP etc are lying to all of us. Many of your points in your posts are purely your subjective opinion.("Lexus is a perfect Buick" - give that nonsense a rest Puhleeze).

     

    By the way were you one of those who said IBM had nothing to fear? Big difference between saying someone is on their last gasp and saying someone's days as number 1 are numbered.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    I agree with ljflx. People who put down Lexus are those who are jealous of its better built cars. They spent more but get less (including prestige). I know because I used to be one of them.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    If Lexus owners wanted this sign of so called status they would buy a Mercades or BMW...

     

    I think Most lexus owners would care less if you notice their car or not...I actually like a less noticable car...

     

    The LS is not stunning but it is not ugly...It is just right for those of us who buy them...and that is just one of their advantages...the fact that are the cleanest running of the Gas V8s, their incredable durability and dependability, their superior crash test ratings, the great (but pricy) service...the smooth, quiet ride, the great sound system....THE PRICE...It is just an awesome machine.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Yeah, IBM had nothing to fear ! So did Xerox, HP, Kodak, Microsoft, etc... These are companies with rock-solid reputations and clout, but now face severe competition so much that some have lost their lofty positions (Kodak, Xerox), or are struggling to hold on (HP, Microsoft). Arrogance is always one way to sink the ship. MB fans are sure excited about their cars, so much that MB now is #4 selling lux-mobile in the NA market. How far does MB need to fall before its fans wake up and smell the coffee ???
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    As I said business is littered with former No. 1's. You'd have to be a fool to think nothing is ever going to change. That's why heritage isn't worth what many think it is. Being able to read the tea leaves in advance of the cycle change was a big part of my job and it's why I always loved big deal-making and strategy.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    Well, most of the MB fans on this site don't own an MB. But, I think it is safe to say that a significant number of past MB owners made the choice not to buy an MB again after the crap car they were given...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You make a very good point. Most of those I know switched out of MB to Lexus recently because of the problems and in the past because of the price/value equation. Back then MB's were made the way they are supposed to be made - bulletproof relative to time period - so the pricing and not the quality was the cause of the switch. Today it's both. But the fact that so many Lexus people are former MB people makes these Buick claims by MB fans look all the more bad.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    I've got idea.

     

    lets pretend that Lexus is the WORLDS number one luxury auto manufacturer. would that make the LS430 a nicer luxury automobile than the S class?

    would it offer more options and drive-trains? would it carry more patents? and even if Lexus was the WORLDS number luxury auto manufacturer...would they sell more LS430's than S class's? well...what do you guys think?

    would you feel more secure in your purchase?

     

    MB has a heritage that is born of time and hard work. wish all you may but i doubt MB or any of the other German big 3 are going to role over a cede to Lexus or any other brand their very tight grip on the WORLDS luxury car market.

     

    like I've posted before.....Lexus is a nice car. a car built to a price point. a price point specifically undercutting the German competition. this instantly helps it's sales but

    also is it's Achilles heal when trying to bring the Lexus brand up market. the car is instantly limited.

     

    one more thought....i've owned close to 20 Japanese made vehicles. why am i not driving a Lexus?....no matter how affordable or reliable they may be...i would still have to look at it everyday and ask myself....how exciting is this?

    but hey...maybe i would be able to say to myself....well their balance sheet looks good!!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "when it comes to luxury, technical innovations, progresses in safety and design MB has nothing to fear"

     

    1. luxury. What do you mean by luxury? Does a marque need to be number 1 in status in order to be luxurious or something? If so, you can't really expect a new brand to catch up in status to a 120-year old brand in just 15 years, can you?

     

    2. technical innovations. No doubt about it, in 120 years MB has contributed more technical innovations than Lexus has in 15. So?

     

    What has MB done for the industry in the last 15 years? Do any of its RECENT innovations even begin to compare with the importance of hybrid powertrains?

     

    3. safety. Yes, MB has managed to do more here in 120 years than Lexus has in 15.

     

    4. design. If you mean styling then I'll grant that, FOR ME, MB wins on styling. But beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

     

    "MB has nothing to fear"

    Judging by what has happened in the last 15 years in the U.S. market, I'd say they have quite alot to fear. Do you find it meaningless, in a competitive sense, that a brand has gone from nonexistent to number 1 right under MB's nose? Sounds like you're in denial.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "MB has a heritage" - That and five bucks will get you a Big Mac, fries and a soda. I am afraid you just don't get the business angle. But if the European nameplates are so great why the heck did you buy 20 different Japanese cars?
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    i purchased Japanese vehicles when i was younger. as my income grew along with my interest in automobiles i switched over to German automobiles....and i have never in anyway

    regretted that. if the LS 430 is the most attractive and versatile luxury automobile that the Japanese can offer.... I'm just not interested. i truly believe if you are an automobile enthusiasts the German brands have so much more to offer than anything currently coming out of Japan.

     

    everyone thinks than I'm dumping on Lexus. i cross shopped Lexus every time i shop for a new car. they manufacture a good vehicle. but when you compare them to the German competition they are still more than a step behind. and guys i know they do well in the automotive surveys...and that's great but if you think there is such a dramatic difference between Lexus quality and German quality you are hanging your hats on such a small difference that in the end to me it is a non issue.

     

    you know what guys...i also drive an 04 GMC Denali and an 04 GMC crew cab. both of which have been trouble free. go figure....American scrap iron!!! and I've had many GM truck products so the reliability and satisfaction i am having with these 2 particular vehicles is not out of the ordinary. like i said all cars are built well. if you as purchasers need that little bit of an edge while you purchase a car that's great for you. keep in mind you are excluding many more exciting vehicles that...by most peoples measure are more attractively designed.

     

    as for MB worrying about Lexus I'm sure they do. i would think they worry about Audi and Cadillac also. don't forget though...the S class is still the worlds luxury king and i really don't see that changing anytime soon.

     

    as for being number 1...in the US? everybody keeps pointing to this as if this is the definative measure by which an automobile manufacturer is to be judged. Lexus is non existant in Europe. the overall sales figures for the A8, Sclass, and 7 destroy any sales numbers from Lexus. is it completely insignificant...no not at all. Lexus is to be congratulated but in a proper context.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They haven't set up shop for Europe, other than to throw a seed for the future in there so what would you expect? That's all about to change in the next two years though. By the end of the decade the landscape will be very different in Europe and that will be just the beginning. You act like they have a broad distribution base and can't sell a car there. Just wait till the effort is increased mightily in the next few years.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    OK, denaliinpa, MB is the greatest auto manufacturer since sliced bread. Lexus is crap, looks like crap, and drives like crap, and will never amount to much. Satisfied now ?

     

    Time to move on...

     

    Merc1:

     

    Can you provide your views of the Chicago auto show ? I am sure you'll have a lot of interesting viewpoints at what's going on in the auto world. Looking forward to reading your report.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    MB has had a great run in the automobile business. They have many patents because they were there when the technology was originally being developed. They are no longer the leader, either in total number nor new issues. Toyota has been for some time.

     

    Unfortunately the company evolved, as do many early leaders into complacency, arrogance, and wrong-headed customer attitudes. "Vee know vat the customer vants and neets".

     

    Failing to stay current in modern technologies, the company has begun to make products that are over-priced, rapidly rushed to markets, and problem prone. Their salesfolks got lessons in how to frame sales arguments based on 'heritage' and 'exclusive pricing' and spent a lot of time on the phone trying to stimulate more sales through rolling over the installed base. The ratio of lost customers to new customers is very high and very expensive. The cost of marketing as a % of revenue skyrockets.

     

    It's the standard story of many companies. Arrogance with respect to your customers and ineffective participation in new technologies is a death knell thats killed many, many companies.

     

    Mercedes was an important part of the automobile's industry history just like Ford. Both are struggling to survive and remain relevant.

     

    Times changes. Smart sales folks left DEC and went to Compaq and Dell. It's where the customers went. It applies here too, folks.

     

    Market share growth shows that in the car business in the U.S. the customes are going to Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura and leaving Audi, Mercedes and BMW.

     

    Audi sales FELL 10K units in 2004 in the U.S. VW FELL 40,000. Infiniti outsold Audi by 52,000 vehicles. Jaguar FELL 10,000 unites, Landrover fell 3,500 - 10%. EVERY BMW car model FELL in the U.S. in 2004. Sure MB had a 'record year' - they were up a whopping 1% in the U.S. on the 5% sales increases of the C and E class sales, even though the C was outsold by the Infiniti G35.

     

    German car companies are being handed their heads here in the U.S. The trade press is on them like a hungry snake on an ageing field mouse. Gobble, gobble.

     

    It's like watching one of those old WWI movies where the 'advanced' tri-plane sputters and finally spirals earthward after being taken out by a more nimble French or British fighter. This time, though, it's from Japanese competitors.

     

    Get used to it.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Agree with your post re the Europeans except for BMW. That's why I fully believe MB's number 1 spot is finished in 3 years. Don't know how BMW car sales went exactly but the X3 is a hit and canibalized the 3 series to a degree. So if you are purely counting cars, you have to take that into consideration. There are of course people on the board who only want to look at cars even though car sales are in the minority of the equation right now. VW and Audi are in horrendous and worsening shape and MB is getting there fast. The business side of things is horrendous for the Europeans right now except - again just my opinion - BMW. They have some price elasticity left and their build costs are significantly less than Mercedes though a lot higher than Lexus. No one has the price elasticity that Lexus has and that will help them weather any exchange rate problems as well. Remember all of MB's euro hedging protection just expired, which is another reason why their results will worsen. BMW has protections in place for 2 more years though not at the level the Euro is currently at.
  • jvcnjvcn Member Posts: 50
    Perception into the future is the important issue. MB has benefitted from its long history of great cars and has been forgiven many quality glitches by its adherents and those seeking status from car buying. Most MB sedan buyers don't read the car rags. But they do read Forbes, Fortune, and (last week) the Wall Street Journal which have all run negative pieces about MB's quality, reliability and profitability. If this continues it could really damage their reputation to the point where they will have to work twice as hard to turn things around.

     

    As a Lexus fan, I sincerely hope that MB does turn things around soon though. I don't want to see Toyota get too fat and happy without competition. Besides I do have Daimler Chrysler stock...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "But the 99% of the market that all MBs play in has a lot of savvy buyers who spends time checking out the facts about the car they are buying and who is behind the car. MB is losing market share because the savvy buyer has wised up to the over-priced and loss of shine of the MB badge, hence the poor financials. When the buying public rejects MBs for Lexus, Audis, BMWs, or whatever else meets their needs, then MBs financials reflect that. And if you cannot see the direct correlation in that simple fact, then I guess this debate is truly pointless.

     

    This whole notion as to why every buyer who doesn't buy a Mercedes, BMW or Audi and buys a Lexus or some other Japanese luxury car instead is pointless and more importantly it is totally unfounded. Where is the proof of this? How do you know what every single buyer or at least ninety-nine percent of them were thinking when they bought their Lexus? There is no possible way for you to know any of this.

     

     

    Please don't try to link lower sales with lower profits and tell me that is the reason why people didn't buy an Mercedes or Audi in the first place. The average buyer couldn't care less about Mercedes or any other company's balance sheet. Now if you have concrete proof, not theories or what you believe, that shows this I'd like to read about it.

     

    "Mitsu and Isuzu are in trouble bcos their products suck (except for a few), no one wants them, and they've got bad management. If MBs follow the trails blazed by these aforementioned companies, it will go the same route. That simple.

      

    How difficult is that to understand ???"


     

    This is the thing on this board, hype. No one ever said that anything couldn't happen to Mercedes or any other company, problem is that you're trying to pass off what Lenn said about 3 years as being a fact. Its all speculation. People said the same thing about Nissan too I bet. Quit trying to pass off speculation as facts. The key word is if Mercedes goes down the path of Mitsu or Isuzu, and guess what Mercedes unlike either of those companies has a slew of new product and they're in no where near as bad a shape as either of them. A one model company with no presence in the U.S. like Isuzu being compared to Mercedes, come on now you want me to take this seriously?

     

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My basic point with you is that there is no way everyone is into the business side like you are, otherwise Mercedes, Audi, VW, Chrysler or Nissan back when they were dying would have ever sold a car. Just because you yourself read these things doesn't mean everyone else does. Secondly what "loss of momentum" are you talking about as far as Mercedes here in the U.S? They just had their best sales year here ever. You're letting balance sheets crowd the reality of most buyers experiences because if this were all so important to everyone that bought a high end car Mercedes, Audi, Land Rover and others like Jaguar wouldn't sell anything.

     

    The financials are a seperate issue from reliability. Even still just like last year this time there were predictions right here on this board about MB and BMW falling off, yet both of them just wrapped up their best sales years ever here in the U.S. Buyers don't care about a company's balance sheet and who their CEO is that big fallacy that is only valid on this board.

     

    Do reliability surveys keep some people out a certain brand of car? Of course, no argument from me there. Does who the CEO is or what they earned last quarter do? Heck naw. Solid proof of anything different is eagerly awaited, not theories or what a particular circle of friends does. Aren't people in market like Cali (Semi Valley) into business stuff too? Mercedes' biggest market in the U.S. it remains.

     

    I've said since 2001 that you're right about the business end, I've never said you weren't anything but right, but most buyers couldn't care any less otherwise all this demise long-predicted would have happened already. I mean really look at the posts from this time last year and it was the same thing, especially about sales and how they'd fall. They didn't.

     

    "Today it's both. But the fact that so many Lexus people are former MB people makes these Buick claims by MB fans look all the more bad.

     

    Interesting since most MB bashers here have never owned a MB either, yet the Buick references have been brought up by the press, and no Lexus buyer bought a Lexus for performance or dynamics either. There are people on these boards who left Lexus because of the driving experience was too boring so the Buick reference is valid, when talking about dynamics - not anything else.

     

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Can you provide your views of the Chicago auto show ? I am sure you'll have a lot of interesting viewpoints at what's going on in the auto world. Looking forward to reading your report.

     

    In the middle of all of this I've almost forgotten what I saw there!!!!

     

    Well I must preface this with the fact that Chicago isn't what Detroit is in presentation or brands represented. Chicago is however a much larger show, physically.

     

    This year Chrysler and Dodge had an indoor driving track. The Chicago Sun-Times had everyone hyped up because they reported that people would be able to drive the cars themselves, but nope. DCX officials drove the cars while people simply rode in them.

     

    Naturally the only Chyrsler I wanted to ride was the 300C. I must say it is about the best American sedan I've ever been in. Solid build, quiet and a nice quality to the interior. I didn't think you'd be able to see out of the car, but visibility is pretty good, if not great. Add the 300C and especially the 425hp SRT-8 version to my likeables list.

     

    Bentley had the Arnage Drophead Coupe (a convertible) there also. Picure the old Bentley Azure convertible with the 2005 Arnage front end and you'll get the picture.

     

    For some reason I got the same invite from Maserati like I did last year. This year though I got to see Mario Andretti! I mean how cool is that. He was looking at a Quattroporte. I didn't want to be rude and gawk for a picture so I didn't say anything to him, I should have though. The Maseratis were also always stunning.

     

    Mercedes, Lexus, BMW and Jaguar pretty much all had the same cars that they had in Detroit. Production and concepts.

     

    Mercedes did however this time have a CLS that you could actually sit in. For this car to be based on the E-Class it is really low the ground and has the typical drop into type seating position, real coupe like for real. Love the CLS, I know a complete about face from when I saw the concept in 2003. Oh well. The S-Class' last hurrah model - the S65 AMG was there also. It will have a brief run from March to Jan 06' until the new S-Class arrives.

     

    Lexus finally has GS cars that you could get in. This is a large car from the outside, but not that big inside, at least relative to its exterior size. All of their concepts were there too.

     

    International, the truck maker has a new line of trucks for the private businessman. When I tell you that these things are ridiculous I mean ridiculous. They make Hummers look like regular trucks. I couldn't believe the prices, like 90K to 190K. They look like minature semis or something.

     

    Disappointments: Infiniti M34/45. I was truly hurt by this. I still like the car, but after sitting it in for a while (less crowds than Detroit) I'm not all hyped about it anymore. That center console is just too in your face with large ugly buttons for me. There seems to be too much going on, wood, aluminum and leather all jocking for attention. This car along with the new GS seem to scream more expensive Nissan Maxima styling which is unfortunate because the GS had the look first, before the 2004 Maxima came out with the 1998-2005 GS' look.

     

    Thats about all I can think of right now...I'll post more when it comes to me.......

     

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi Merc,

      I know this isn't exactly a Lux nameplate, but did you get to see the Buick Lucerne? I've seen a few pictures from the show and it looks like an interesting car..The back of the rear looks like a Phaeton, and I'm not sure where the front came from..It seems GM is getting better at building nicer interiors. Not quite Lexus standards yet, but not bad at all. It has an optional FWD Northstar 4.6L V-8..I wonder how the torque steer is on that. Any comments on the GM Offerings?

     

    As usual we have the typical Lexus vs Germany debate going on here..I think it's unfair to label Lexus as "inferior" (You haven't said this recently, but others have) for simple prestige reasons..At least for me, it's not one of the criteria in my purchase.

     

    For it's age, Lexus has done plenty to earn it's good reputation..After all the division is only 15 yrs old. You expect a young car company to have some growing pains in terms of a design theme.

     

    I'm not an MB basher at all. I just think their offerings in the 1980's were much better in design and quality than what they have today. If they were to put out a retro-(Not sure the right word) Wl26 I'd be willing to pay the MB premium for it. That was one of the reasons I didn't get the S430..It didn't exude the same feel the 420SE did when I drove it all those years ago. The new car seemed to be a diluted version of the great eighties cars. Maybe the new S-Class will feel more like those "Classic" Benzes..

     

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Buick Lucerne - I'm still trying to pronounce the name correctly. I really didn't look at any of the GM cars this time around, since in Detroit GM has like more floor space than anyone else. I do agree about the styling as the rear looks much better than the front.

     

    image

     

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    I do remember seeing this car for a brief moment and only from a distance it kinda looked unbalanced in its styling to me. Didn't go near it to see the interior. It sort of looks like an ES330 from the side.

     

    Those classic Mercedes' were overbuilt and nobody can physically build a car like that anymore, especially in interior fittings and the way the switches and controls operated - too costly to do now. The Maybach is about as close as you'll get to that now and even it doesn't click and thack like the old W126 S-Class and W124 E-Class from the 80's. Stlyewise of course I think Mercedes' have never looked better. As far as "feel" is concerned if a basic Mercedes doesn't give you that feeling of sitting in the middle of road, locked in place like the older models did (they weren't too agile either) then try an AMG model like the CLS55 or E55. They had to lighten up on the controls to give them more agile handling since BMW made a point of it. You seem to want the old "bank vault" Mercedes in both styling and dynamics.....

     

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi Merc,

      You pretty much hit right on..I really liked the older Benzes. You still see shining examples of those cars everywhere. It's what got me interested in Luxury cars to begin with..(I was a former Buick Park Ave driver!!) I remember driving a friend's 420 SE..It drove like a tank and felt like it was built to last forever. Absolutely solid car. And for the price you got something that really looked grand..The car STILL looks great today.

     

    By the time 1992 rolled around I wasn't too impressed with the successor to the W126..So there was the Lexus LS400..It had a nice flair to it and sitting in it invoked the same feel I had sitting in the 420 SE..(No surprise considering the LS was based off of it!) Thirteen years later, it still looks and drives like new..It's been the best car I've owned..I feel that even the new LS430 doesn't have quite the solid feel of the original. Even the Lexus Service dept told me "They don't build them like they used to...Hold on to that car!" I guess times are changing..I understand the need to make a profit, but I miss the older cars that would last 20 yrs no problem..With all the electronic gimmicks in all of these cars, I wonder how trouble free they'll be in 13 years..

     

    SV
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That Lucerne is as vanilla as it gets, but is minimal and extremely well executed nonetheless. There isn't one detail that is mis-proportioned. Giugiaro influence. I wish something like that would come out of BMW instead of those harlequin designs.

     

    Yeah Merc, both the Maxima and GS have that slovenly fatso look about them. I hope I'm wrong but I'd bet the next LS has the same countenance. Camp Lexus tends to think it will be the next coming of Marilyn Monroe. I guess it doesn't matter though—Toyota is well-capitalized.

     

    With all of this talk about sales etc., a lot of you guys keep forgetting why people buy German cars. I'm not going to utter the reasons again. But do you think for one minute that they don't consider reliability? Many of them do, it's just that they go with the risk. Some people would never buy stocks or lay a dime on a crap table. It's no different. If you get burned, you shrug your shoulders, walk away, and get the same night's sleep as if nothing ever happened. And if you can't then it's not for you. Reminder—reliability issues are nothing new with German cars.
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    "the S class is still the worlds luxury king and i really don't see that changing anytime soon."

     
    Haha, there's still RR's & Bentley's . . .

     

    Which car is the king of luxury cars is purely in the minds of each individual who makes the purchase. The fact that they sell more S class in the world than any other cars in it's class have as little relevence to it's status as the King of luxury as the case of Toyota blowing away everybody else in net profits have in relevence as the King of all cars.

     

    Don't tell me that a person that choose to buy a top of the line Jaguar XJ (which isn't a big seller anywhere with the possible exception of UK)over everything else in it's class & just spend $100K+ for it don't feel like they have picked the best & most desirable car in the world.

     

    Please drop this idea of MB, or any other brand as the most deirable, or being the King of anything.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Time to move on Merc1.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thanks for the report. It looks kinda scanty... or is it that I don't have my reading glasses on ?

     

    :)

     

    How 'bout Jaguar, Phaeton, Acura, Ferrari, AM, etc... And your favorite, Maserati Q... Maybe more details on these cars later as they come to you ???
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Very well said. Even in the DaimlerChrysler empire itself, S class has to bow to the Maybach. As for unit sales, I'm sure all the A-class and C class sales make the S owners feel very special; similarly, the gaggles of S320's sold as glorified taxis in the third world countries must make the S500 and S600 owners feel proud.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    MB needs people like you to keep the company aflow. So keep buying them. Real rich people don't need to drive MB to show off.
  • flyfisher1flyfisher1 Member Posts: 38
    I couldn't agree more with your comments. I have followed the auto industry from ~12 yrs old on (father owned auto dealership) and have graduated to German cars. My current car is an '05 Audi A8L. There is just something about German engineered cars. If you want that rock solid good handling well put together feel - MB/BMW/Audi have it. If you like gizmos - the Japanese have it.

    As far as reliability. I owned a '00 A6 4.2 prior to the A8 and had zero problems. My "other" car is a '02 Denali XL and it, like yours, has been trouble free for 60K+ miles.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Hmm… Flyfisher, you did great except for the gizmo part. Evidently it’s chow time at Camp Lexus. They’ll be weighin’ in on that one after dessert.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    From Detroit News:

     

    "On Thursday, DaimlerChrysler said its fourth-quarter net profit fell 63 percent to 526 million euros ($712 million) from 1.4 billion euros a year ago as Mercedes, once its star division, struggled with quality problems and the dollar's weakness against the euro, which hurt its results in the key U.S. market.

     

    While once-troubled U.S. unit Chrysler more than doubled its fourth-quarter operating earnings to 386 million euros ($523 million) from 143 million euros a year ago, earnings at Mercedes nearly evaporated -- falling to just 20 million euros ($27 million) from 784 million euros.

     

    DaimlerChrysler CEO Juergen Schrempp called the Mercedes result "unacceptable" and announced a plan to cut costs and boost revenues that he said would improve the division's profit margin to 7 percent by 2007. It currently stands at 3.5 percent."

     

    This has about as much credibility as Bush cutting the deficit in half by 2009. Wink, wink.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    And you don't think that same feeling exists in a Lexus, specifically the LS430??

     

    Designman - Re last nights comment - I would tend to agree with your comment if you narrowed it from German cars to BMW's. I know people that won't ever go near an MB or Audi again. Never met anyone who said that about a BMW. Friends warned us to stay away from the 7 in the late 90's because they had some bad experiences and knew my wife and I would never put up with the problems they did. Yet they stayed BMW in cars although they did bring in the LX and RX from Lexus as SUV's. That's what is always so funny about this - so many multiple brand owners exist.
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