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A true end high luxury marquee as you state would only apply to Rolls, Bently, etc. if you use your logic. Again, you fail to see my point. A true luxury marquee must have a world presence. Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America. World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it. Come back in ten years and then start your discussion.
As far as I know, Lexus is only beginning to set up a dealer network in Europe.
Audi's worldwide presence is not a luxury marquee at all. Nearly 3 out of 4 Audis sold worldwide in 2004 were A3's and A4's. These are not luxury cars. You can't have it both ways, claiming world presence for Audi as high marquee definition then discounting plebian A3 as not relevent to the marquee because it's not yet sold in the US. Worldwide presence is quite irrelevent, it would be hard to deny Cadillac STS and DTS or Toyota Crown as high end luxury marquees even though they are only offered in their home markets.
If you really want to talk about world-wide, MB and Audi are not lexury brands at all. The majority of their cars compete with Toyota, Ford and GM/Opel.
German cars are inferior to what Japan makes today, I dont care what price range high-low they are inferior in build, electrical and robustness. They are moody, unpredictable, overcomplicated just like just like the people who build them. 2nd rate quality priced like Tiffany. Germany is a washed out second rate country and power globally. Their even mocked by our own defense secretary. Their high cost socialist welfare state and labor rate makes them all the more disadvantaged globally along with making cars that are delicate and break easy. Just remember Asia is where it's happening Europe is soon becoming irrelevant. The Euros are envious like you of the Asians because they work harder are more disciplined people and have the highest performing kids in schools learning to make better Lexus's.
Audi's are the saddest case of all, not bought by hardly anyone here and made to look purdy on the outside but internals that matter are garbage and 3rd rate. The LS430 is many times better than the dismal selling, low resale value overweight porker A8 clad in aluminum. Any advantage the A8 might have now will be history when they try to benchmark the next LS like they did the bigger disaster Phaeton. The germans are clueless about quality and it shows year after year. Take your potshots at Lexus I got many more in store for consumption.
Puleeeaze! Enough American bashing already. Europeans have plenty crap cars like Fiat, Citroen and Rover that simply could not make it here in the most competitive market in the world: North America. VW/Audi may be on the brink here again soon. European bureacrats and governments provide a safety net as buyers of last resort to their domestic car brands; talk about shoving mindless cars down taxpayers' throats. Lexus moving beyond their core competence in pursuit of design and performance goals simply because they want expand their product range to conquer more market segments.
World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it.
Worldwide, an average Lexus is much more luxurious and at a much higher price point than an average MB or Audi.
My engineer brother hates Germans cars because long ago he had an Audi A6 that was a true piece of crap that had many electrical problems and parts failing early on. Thats why I still love to pick on Audis because they to this day still continue to make designer duds as does Mercedes which is a bigger issue than irrelevant small time Audi. The only thing missing on the new Audis is the loud back up buzzer beep, beep, beep
semi backing up.
Another point is that some of posts in here are getting too personal. If you don't like someone else's opinion, that's fine, but debate the opinions presented and keep what you think of the poster out of it.
In the US, we have more money to spend on cars than anywhere else in the world (generality) Companies like Audi and Benz with the A3/4 and A,C and stripped E classes only do that because they have to in order to surivive. Also, a lot of the streets are smaller in Europe. I really don't think that I would buy a BMW or Audi over a Lexus. Lexus has them creamed (in the US) just because the cars are comparable but a bunch less. Not that I don't like Audi, but that's just because of the technical problems they all seemed to have a while back. Trust me, I hold grudges, which is perfectly normal for a comsumer. (Consuming cars, eh?)
Here's my list of true luxury marques:
Bentley (my favorite)
Rolls-Royce (gaudy, but oh well)
Mercedes-Benz (cachet! woohoo!)
Bugatti (woot woot)
Audi (to an extent, but I'm not buying one)
Lexus (Traaditional luxury, and no doubt about it)
I'm done
Chris
Gets hotter and hotter in here !!
Designman must be enjoying that rocker chair soaking all of these in, eh
Whoever said Audi wasn't a lux brand? It's just last on the totem pole and many don't give it serious consideration. That's the way it is and that's why it sells so few A8's and most of its sales are skewed to A4's. Lexus will outsell it by 30K units with the RX alone and just from that vehicle will sell at a higher average sale price than Audi's whole car line in the US. That's the reality of the situation. Nothing wrong with loving an A8 but to have to justify buying it because of a racing heritage is way too far out for me.
Posted this once before but even though the A8 got the most wanted label in Edmunds, it scored lower than the LS by Edmunds itself, as did all the other German marques. So much for racing heritage.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/audi/index.html?tid=edmunds.n.maininde- x.content..0.*
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/lexus/ls430/index.html?tid=edmund- s.n.mmindex.content.num6.0.lexus*
Oac Designman is doing what Japanese carmakers should be doing—designing! I’m also putting out a ton of fires you know what it’s like. Eventually he will leave to go home, at which time he will make love to a Martini or two (or three), and if time permits (doubt it) he will read the details of this mess and add to it! This place is funny. It’s dormant for two months and then it explodes. Must have something to do with the return of the Prodigal Son Merc. He’s a legend in his own time.
;-)
On the lease issue my point is there are LS430's that cost more to lease than an S430, a 7 or an A8 in some cases despite stickering 10-12K less. The point there is comparative prices is not having an effect and if anything people are passing up a lease sale of the German cars. The lease game is frought with variablility tied to residuals, interest rates and hidden subsidies. Secondly I think because of reliability issues people who go the European route are skewing more and more to leases. But the other thing is the business deductibility issues and the fact that often, if you do the math, it's barely more expensive to buy at lease-end rather than buy up front. So why not take a 3 year trial for a nominal fee? Me - I will always lease one car at least because of business. I'll probably go one more round on an SUV lease and then either buy a new one after that or buy that next one at lease end. I'm wed to SUV's for at least 7 more years because of family.
Answer: Exactly one.
Question: Can you find two identical Rolls-Royce?
Answer: Highly unlikely because every Rolls is uniquely made to order.
So, I am pretty sure that you won't find two identical Rolls-Royce, even though there is only one 'version'.
If you want to play that game then let's do it:
Have you ever heard about 'S'? That's the internal special equipment division of Audi (like AMG for MB and M for BMW). They let you specify everything on your car. If you want to have Mark Levinson sound system (I don't really know why the Bose wouldn't be good enough) they'll put it in. Plus your little fridge...that's a piece of cake! And while you're at it why don't you order the leather in the same color of your wife's favorite dress...
But I am sure Lexus will have that next year, so so...
I am so sorry if this comes as a shock to those who think the automotive world revolves around Germany, but MB DID NOT create the luxury SUV market. The ML was introduced in MY1998, and a number of others preceded it:
1997 Infiniti QX4
1996 LX450
1996 Acura SLX
1994 Land Rover Discovery
1970 Land Rover Range Rover
Now, maybe some of these don't qualify as "true luxury"...but then, does the ML?
So exactly what category of SUV's did MB "create"??? Surely not the category of "luxury SUV" as was claimed. Maybe a category called "wannabe luxury SUV with shoddy reliability and cheapo interior"?
This board has got to be the liveliest, most informed and intellectual on Edmunds.
i almost don't want to go to work...i miss too much!
first i have a question. how many Lexus dealers are there in the USA?
it's nice to see a poster [reality2] have the passion that he has. the German brands do have a long and rich racing heritage. my guess is Europeans expect more from an automobile than just top billing in reliability surveys. right now Lexus is non existent in Europe.... not because they haven't tried [approx.200 dealers] but because their offerings are just not being accepted by the buying public....which i am sure is for various reasons...styling, performance, brand awareness.
right now Toyota is selling what they usually badged as Toyotas.... as Lexus's in Japan to build some brand awareness. this isn't a dig but isn't it really strange that Toyota didn't launch Lexus first in Japan? i understand the US market is huge but why not market the cars under the name you build them .....in the country you build them?
Lexus's hold on the JD powers top rating is admirable. has anyone given any thought to the fact that the other car makers that are not "no.1" make pretty nice cars? and because they are not "no.1" does not instantly exclude them from being interesting and viable alternatives if not even better vehicles? when i look at purchasing a new vehicle jdpowers is not the one and only source of information nor is it the definitive answer on what is "best". i am perplexed that such emphasis is placed on a one part of a survey that clearly shows that many quality vehicles are manufactured worldwide today.
a lot has been made of Audi selling many A4's. if Lexus sells 280000 cars a year in the US and only roughly 30000 of them are Ls's...isn't it like the pot calling the kettle black?
what i feel differentiates Lexus from the German 3 is their lack of true upper end flagships, using re badged Toyota's to fill showrooms to inflate sales, no high performance models, and no brand identity in their design. now that i pissed everyone off i want to say this....Toyota corp. assembles automobiles terrificly. and every once in a while they even design an automobile that is a real attention getter(original LS400). the future looks great for Lexus(all that Toyota cash can't hurt!). ....but...i would really be surprised if they duplicate their success in Europe. i just don't see boring and bland designs selling that well there.
also...while most of the Lexus faithful are rabidly enjoying any problems the Germans maybe having...they better look in their rear view mirror because Infiniti is on the move. my guess is that Infiniti will steal many more sales from Lexus than the Germans brands. reason....price point. just as Lexus has undercut the Germans i expect Infiniti to undercut Lexus. not by much.... but enough of a difference along with more sporting designs to give Lexus some fits on the soil that made it successful. they will have to fight to preserve market share in the US and at the same time try to convince rigid European buyers to give their product another chance. not an easy job.
full text:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/62b860d0-808a-11d9-bd50-00000e2511c8.htm- l
Now to MB: They always had the C-class (last 20-30 years or so). They started the A and will introduce the B because they want to capture a younger market. They had problems in the past with they customers getting older and this was a logical move (strategically).
Please DO NOT compare Mini with Scion!!! The Mini is a great car (driving+looks+image), but Scion gets 'the ugliest car in the world' -award!!!
RR, Maybach, and Bentley are the top of the line, however remember that Bugatti is coming and topping everythign that has been there before!!!
lx450.....aka....landcruiser
slx.....aka.....trooper
the other 2...heck i don't know.
MB created the mid size luxury suv category.
from scratch....from the ground up.
if i wanted a Toyota or a Nissan or an Isuzu....guess what....i would buy one because they are the exact same vehicle!!!! and guess what...i would save some money! why would a person purchase a true "Wannabe" re badged vehicle. what's the upside.....saying i have an Infiniti or Lexus when actually i have a Nissan or Toyota. to me that's "wannabe"!
Although this is the wrong forum for it but I'll carefully mention to you that on CL, their are rave reviews of the new 2006 GS300. Looks like the initial coolness and reservations to the exterior skin of this new Lex sport-sedan is giving way to a lot of excitement about the car. Many of these are from hard core tuners and performance-inclined drivers. Turned out that seeing the car in person is a whole lotta different than all of these pics flying around. Me: I have seen it in person and do like the GS, although it ddn't move me like, say an e39/e59. But I am waiting to actually sit in the car and get it on a freeway.
Side-view (with the 18" wheels):
Rear-side:
I have to agree with you even though I think you are a little harsh in your form of expression. Lexus makes solid cars, no question about that, but what many people here fail to understand is that world-wide it doesn't come close to 'the Germans'. And people who want to tell me that Japanese design is cutting edge really need a reality check. Japan is not avant-garde in anything that requires good looks. If I am wrong please give me an example I would be happy to change my mind. German car design is cutting edege...if you like it or not!!!
Eeeeeoooooooowwwwww !!!
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/62b860d0-808a-11d9-bd50-00000e2511c8.htm
Today I was driving down the Garden State Pkwy in NJ and there in the right lane barely ahead of me were a GS (current model, of course), the new 5 and new E. I had never seen the three lined up in sequence before on a road. It was in heavy traffic so they were close together as well. But the 5 just stood out because it is just such a plodding odd looking car. I just looked at it and wondered what Bangle could have been thinking with such a mis-proportioned car. My second thought was how could my cyber buddy - You - possibly start to like this thing. The E was by far the best looking car of the group - until this new GS comes out. It's a winner.
I'm starting to get a kick out of our German car lovers posts. It's amazing how they can't handle Lexus ruining the German party. If I was a German cvar lover I'd thank God every day Lexus was around. Ten years ago an MB S500 cost $10-12k more than it does now. If Lexus doesn't come to the party the $85K you now pay would have been over $110K. There's your damage measurement to MB's bottom line and the gain for those who depise Lexus for causing it. Sometimes people don't know who their friends are.
I don't know the sales of Lexus/Lexus sold as Toyota in Japan, however I remember seeing a documentary about Luxury cars in Japan and most people intervied said that they like European cars, because they are 'different' and NOT-Japanese...kinda makes sense to me.
In my opinion, why Lexus can undercut MB, BMW, etc. is one, definitely because of their production (that is what they are really good in), and two their financial situation. Totyota makes a lot of money and Lexus can just break even without being hurt financially. The same is true for Acura and Infinity.
MB and BMW are not really set up to do that because they have to operate at higher margins in the upper classes. That was one VERY important reason for the merger with Chrysler, who was the most profitable car company in the world in profit per car. BMW can't do that because the closest to a volume model was the last 3 Series. I can't prove that, but I don't think, due to the corporate governance, that Audi recieves financial support from VW.
It changes the picture dramatically if you HAVE to make a profit compared to just needing to break even (or maybe less).
The result: Japanese Cars are cheaper than German cars. FACT! Americans, even in the higher market segment buy their cars depending on price! The problem I see with this is that most people read quality and 'being better' into those higher sales.
That's my whole prestige issue in a nutshell. Paying a big price for high quality is, and always will be prestigious. Story of MB until about a dozen years ago. Paying a big price for poor quality that even cab drivers won't put up with is downright embarrassing. That's why their hold on the top prestige spot isn't going to last much longer.
this idea that the Germans will be forever fighting uphill in the jdpower quality surveys is a false and misleading sense of comfort. to think that they will roll over and die is ridiculous. the next 5 years will be very telling...not only for the Germans but Lexus as well.
Now, unless they screw up the marketing (MB didn't do a very good job at that with the E320cdi), this might take a considerable part of the market.
Consider this:
BMW 535d
3 liters
2 variable turbos (small=low RPM, large=high RPM)
270 HP
almost as much torque as the 760
better MPG than a 325
Why would that NOT be appealing? I really want some reasons because I can't see any...
Of course there are differences. RSX drives very different from a Civic. Heck even a Civic EX Coupe exhibits more driving difference from Civic DX Sedan than the difference betwen Golf and Beetle. Get real, of course there are differences. You can feel difference when you change tires or suspension components yourself. Yet the sharing of platform is obvious. There is nothing intrisicly wrong with sharing platforms, however the way VW is doing is leaving Audi with nothing unique in the drive train at all. Audi not only share the upper end VW platforms, but also heavily the cheapest platforms. That makes debases the Audi brand just what Acura using Civic platform for high volume RSX.
Now to MB: They always had the C-class (last 20-30 years or so). They started the A and will introduce the B because they want to capture a younger market. They had problems in the past with they customers getting older and this was a logical move (strategically).
Get your own facts straight: there was no C-class 20 years ago. A 4 banger 190-class, maybe. Introducing cheaper cars for the youth market must be the oldest joke in the industry. Cheap models like A-class usually finds retirees and working stiff as buyers. The youth who care about brand cachet usually buy 2nd hand big pimp mobiles as their first cars.
Please DO NOT compare Mini with Scion!!! The Mini is a great car (driving+looks+image), but Scion gets 'the ugliest car in the world' -award!!!
Scions are not quite as ugly as A class variants. tC is positively an elegant alternative to the C Coupe.
RR, Maybach, and Bentley are the top of the line, however remember that Bugatti is coming and topping everythign that has been there before!!!
Considering that the existing triplets are having a tough time in sales, it's doubtful Bugatti would succeed, or ever see the light of the day for that matter. My suspicion is that VW will eventually decide to can Bugatti altogether as another of Ferdinand Piech's follies. We live in a world where the lastest Civic platform cost $4 billion to design and engineer. The expected $300 million revenue (300 at $1m apiece) will probably result in another over-designed and under-engineered expensive car. It's relatively cheap to design swoopy lines and tag new gizmo onto marketting propaganda. It costs a heck lot more money to engineer out the nitty-gritty details. IMHO, that's the fundamental reason why German marquees are having so much troubles. They are simply under-engineered. The Civic platform shows the result of what $4 billion can do in working out the details. The S class, 7 and A8 each involved only about one tenth the amount of money in the design and engineering process. Having numerous variants spread the meager resource even thinner. Little wonder things start to fall apart when the vehicles started moving.
Ahhhhhhhh...German IRON...
Audi A-8 336 HP...O-60 6.3 sec..No bad for a big car.
Lexus LS430 290 HP...0-60... 5.9 SEC...and it gets much better gas milage.
ENOUGH SAID.
I agree that Toyota has one of the best production systems around. Have you ever been in a car factory? You don't see many people in there any more...anywhere!!! That is not the Toyota advantage. Besides have you ever heard of kaizen, lean manufacturing, JIT...Taiichi Ono??? THAT is the Toyota advantage!
Now...the 'German' advantage is innovation, design, motorsport...engineering.
Compare: manufacturing (Japan) - engineering (Germany/Europe)
AND PLEASE to EVERYONE: reliability DOES NOT EQUAL quality!!! In my book reliability has to do how often somehting breaks and quality has to do with the materials and how it was built. Compare cars after 20 years...
Truckish SUV's selling for high price were available in the form of Land Rovers, Humvees and Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited long before ML came along. There's nothing luxurious about any of them with their horrendous ride quality and spartan interior. RX was what really started the car-based luxury SUV segment, like X5, FX, XC90, SRX, X3, etc., even the upcoming new ML.
I would note that one of the most advanced technologies to hit the auto industry ...Hybred Tech is about to take over the market ...Especially the Luxury market...why..BIG POWER...Little fuel consumption....
Chrysler was not doing well when MB bought it.
We have gone through this numerous times, with the lease subsidies going on by MB, BMW and Audi, there is very little cost difference in leasing a Lexus vs. leasing the Germans. About half of those high end cars are leased. Lexus out-sells all of them by a factor of 2 or more! So there you have the simple math, even assuming not a single MB, BMW or Audi is purchased due to price difference, they still lose to Lexus on the lease front, where there is no price difference.