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Comments
But, I haven't heard anything from brightness04 that makes me think he knows much about it, either..
Because, if he did know much... we'd hear something specifically about the aluminum body panels on an Audi vs. steel on a Lexus.. and not some irrelevant babble about lower ignition temperatures...
So, I disagree that any of brightness04 claims have anything to do with the safety of the Audi A8.. Regardless if they are factual or not...
If you want to discuss the properties of aluminum vs. steel, perhaps there is some sort of chemical/metallurgical website you could visit.. Because, nothing stated about it so far, has anything to do with cars...
To sum up yours and brightness 04's arguments:
Lexus... GOOD
All others.. BAD
That should just about wrap it up for you... what are you going to talk about now?
regards,
kyfdx
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Ljflx... I always enjoy your marketing takes. What's your 5-year prognosis for all of the brands in question here?
Let's move on with other conversation.
I think that everyone prefers to buy something that has been made in his own country, right? But the real reason, IMO, why for Lexus it's harder to compete in Europe is that transportation from Japan to Europe is longer than from Japan to the US. Are Lexus built in the US (I don't know that they are)?
As for Marketing: what are the German carmakers offering in Europe? A completely customized product. They can do that because they can deliever a car in about a month, if there is no waiting list. They can't do that in the US because Transportation is about a month (or so???). The Japanese have done the only possible thing (I can think of), to offer an (almost) fully equiped vehicle. I give them credit for that. 'Z' Germans believe they can make more profit with their option 'book' (it's too long to be a list).
The other factor we shouldn't forget here is that the US is pretty much a primary market for Lexus (if not more important than Japan). For 'Z' Germans it's a secondary market. You can just see that at the limited product lines.
They dont even have a reclining / sliding rear seat which is available in many smaller Crossover Utility Vehicles like Escape, CRV, Equinox, etc. Such seat provides more comfort for the passenger.
After all luxury vehicles are meant for maximum comfort. Any comments.
As for MB's reputation in Europe, it's rapidly going downhill even without Lexus and JD Power to pound on them.
See for example:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/62b860d0-808a-11d9-bd50-00000e2511c8.htm- l
opening:
Visitors travelling by taxi to the DaimlerChrysler headquarters in Stuttgart used to have one choice of vehicle: Mercedes. The same was true throughout Germany. But on visits in the recent wintry months, the taxi rank has usually been headed by a Volkswagen, Opel or - worst of all - a Mazda.
Jürgen Geier, a Stuttgart taxi driver who used to drive a Mercedes before switching to Audi, explains: "Mercedes has really gone downhill in the last few years.
Other choice quotes include:
For Germany's taxi drivers, this comes as no surprise. "Opels [made by General Motors of the US] are half the price of Mercedes and the quality is now the same," says Anis Ahmad, a Frankfurt taxi driver with an Opel Zafira.
And finally:
However, secondhand sales of older, more reliable Mercedes models are booming in the German taxi market, says BZP - with the result that 70 per cent of all taxis still bear the famous star logo.
Brightness:
Thanks for this. You make my point better than I could make it myself, and backed up with some conservative estimates. Merc1's post is far more general and non-specific - more variants does not necessarily translate to more sales.
It will appear that Lexus truly is the numero uno luxury car seller than MB or BMW ! Lexus sells more lux cars/trucks than their competition (they are #1 in sales in the US 3 years running), despite the higher macque/cache/brand recognition of MB or BMW over Lexus. What MB has are niche cars (S600/SL/CLS/AMGs) not necessarily luxury cars, since these sell in so low numbers. The mainstream luxury car seller, at least in the US, is Lexus. The numbers bear it out, and numbers don't lie, or do they ?
Touche.
Hybrids will revolutionalize the auto industry within the next 5 years ! You know that already, right ? Just read an article where someone mentioned that the days of cheap gasoline are long over. Why ? Because of the HUGE demand from China and other fast growing markets due to their phenomenal growths. And Toyota has always been on the forefront of clairvoyance in the auto industry. They started the hybrids almost a decade ago, while the likes of Ford, GM, MB laughed and scoffed at hybrids. We'll see who'll be laughing in 5 years from now !!!
Diesels in the US as an alternative ? Get real !
More wannabes?
Quasimoto ? Would that not be the "Hunchback of Notre Dame" ? Are you refering to the GS ? (hehehehe... )
I will LOVE to hear/read of your test drive of the GS, if you can get one. So what am I doing wrong that my dealer hasn't called me yet ? I gotta find out and do my own test drive soon.
these are figures for year to date 04 vs 03.
04 03
Lexus
IS 9972 13559
ES 79916 67762
RX 106531 92366
GX 35420 31376
LX 9846 9193
GS 1348 2078
SC 9708 10298
LS 32272 23895
Mercedes 04 03
C/sedan 60107 52382
C/coupe 5584 9779
C/wagon 3560 3821
CLK 10120 9802
CLK/conv. 12346 9428
E 53886 53240
E/wagon 5068 2443
SLK 7360 6023
SL 12885 13318
CL 2683 3377
S 20460 22940
M 25681 30018
G 1491 1980
CLS -- ---
just think....10 different models. 15 total variations...not one re badged Chrysler among the bunch. convertibles, high performance coupes and sedans, all wheel drive versions, short and long wheel base availability,
and even wagons. this is a complete portfolio for the luxury car buyer. like i said earlier...re badging Toyota's to create a so called luxury brand just doesn't cut in my opinion.
That Criteria would make Ford as much as a Marque as MB...They sell Lincolns at all sorts of prices..Include Jaguar and Volvo and they are a bonafide luxury car maker..
Using your logic Jaguar would not be considered a high end luxury car maker, given both the lack of variety and the fact two of its models (S-Type, X-Type) share platforms with Ford products..(Lincoln LS and Ford Mondeo) How about the XJ6 having a Ford derived V-6 in it? Does that diminish Jaguar in anyway?..
Supermarket like variety isn't the basis for calling an automaker upscale..
We're all entitled to define a luxury brand in the way that we believe it should be defined. None of us are going to convince anyone else to change his viewpoint by saying the same things over and over again.
Everyone here has made his opinion very clear - it's time to agree to disagree where that applies.
Let's find something else to talk about now.
Thanks.
I've been reading an older issue of Jaguar World in which it talks about the furor of Jaguar owners after the release of downmarket cars such as the X-Type and X-Type Wagon..Buyer loyalty has fallen and Jaguar isn't expected to make a profit until 2009..
I've always maintained that Ford is making a huge mistake by taking Jaguar downmarket. It's better to focus on the high end. Why risk infuriating a potential buyer of a 80K car for a X Type sale? When I went to have a look at the new XJ I was bothered by the strong resemblance the X-Type had to it..Better yet, the XJ simply lacked the "look" of a Jaguar..It seemed like something that had come out of a Ford design committee..
So the question begs..Is going downmarket the answer to the Euro luxury car woes? What I've said above applies to Mercedes as well...With all the downmarket models what was the point of buying Chrysler? It doesn't make any business sense to me..
Your comments Please,
SV
Audi A8 a tiny bit behind the top 3.
even though i just purchased an Audi A8...Audi's brand awareness in the USA is not equal to the other German automakers. hopefully this version of the A8 will bridge the gap that now exists.
as for going down market with cheaper models.... i believe it to be a necessity of the auto manufacturing business in todays market. every automaker needs to take advantage of cost savings to be competitive. i believe that all of the brands we see today will eventually be cut by a third within 20 years. Honda and Bmw ...i believe are the only independents left. most brands have merged or been purchased by their competitors. debates like the one that has been raging this past week will even be harder in the future. brand loyalty will be harder to come by.
Oh my !!! We finally get an agreement !!!!! Who said we can't get along ???
Is it just me, or is this little story perhaps getting a little bit more coverage because it involves Lexus?
You recapped what I was saying very succinctly. Thank you for stepping in here. I was getting a bit frustrated with Merc's insistence on accusing me of making a statement that I never made.
I have more than a passing knowledge of industrial metals. In case you did not know anything beyond your soft drink can (hey, your own choice of reference, it's only fair, right? ;-) I supplied a link in one of my earlier posts:
http://ussautomotive.com/auto/steelvsal/mechproperties.htm
It's quite an informative site.
Obviously, the industrial insiders find it quite purposeful discussing the intrinsic metallurgical properties without referencing specific crash A/B tests; kinda makes sense, you don't need to build a full size cardboard A8 to prove cardboard is a bad choice.
Now what's the relevence to Audi, you ask, well, one of the Audi fans brought up that Aluminum (space frame) was what differentiiats Audi from VW. I was merely pointing out that the actual benefit from Aluminum construction in a vehicle as heavy as A8 is very questionable. Apparently the industrial insiders at the site referenced above concur; if you follow the link for a few pages you will actually see an in-depth analysis of the 2002 Audi A8 Space Frame Aluminum Intensive structure and its disadvantages.
I should also point out that aluminum construction only accounts for something like 3% of all Audis sold in 2004! That's hardly a marquee identity.
Just because you are not knowledgeable on a specific subject, don't assume others are equally ignorant.
No rebadged Chrysler necessary; Mercedes vehicles themselves are shoddy enough. I'd take a Toyota over any Mercedes, even at the same price point, much less Lexus. Look through your own list again. LS exceeds S by more than 50% in fleet representation. MB's volume leader is a sub-$30k compact (that's before the even more cheaply put together A/B class gets here; A/B class is the MB volume leader in practically every market that it has entered, at or below $20k base price), whereas Lexus' volume leader is a mid-sized vehicle close to $40k in base price. All the halo models only serve to spread the engineering resources extra thin. At about 35-40k units a year, Chevy sells more Corvettes than all the high performance models MB's combined, yet Chevy is not a high performance marquee due to its roster of low-end products. MB's claim to luxury marquee is likewise questionable when it has moved down market as fast as it has in the last decade.
One way to increase unit sales for a niche vehicle is prolonging the product cycle, but then the mfr ends up having an obsolete product line. MB seems to be trying some marketting trick with the Chrysler purchase: using the latter as some sort of life cycle extension program for obsolete MB platforms, so more unit sales can be generated. Exterior design is cheap, getting everything working together well inside takes real engineering budget, so it is a cheap trick to extend a platform's shelf life; every brand does that sort of thing with mid-cycle refreshes, but MB is trying to double the shelf life by giving Chrysler hand-me-downs. I wonder how quickly people are going to realize those hand-me-down "MB technology" on re-skinned Chryslers are little more than twice warmed left-overs. I will give it perhaps one year, before 300C piling up in the supply channel to multi-month proportions just like Crossfire has.
Information and pictures of the 300C SRT-8:
http://seriouswheels.com/top-2005-Chrysler-300C-SRT-8.htm
Information on the Chrysler/Dodge LX cars (the big rwd cars):
http://www.allpar.com/cars/lx/index.html
The Magnum is perhaps the first cool American station wagon that has sold very well (55-57 Chevy Nomad didn't sell well).
http://conceptcars.free.fr/images/Chronos_image1.jpg
http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/chronos.html
2005 Chrysler 300C SRT-8:
http://fast-autos.net/chrysler/srt8.jpg
http://www.allpar.com/cars/lx/srt8-chrysler.html
Now the 1957 Chrysler 300C:
http://www.allpar.com/cars/chrysler-300c.html
The grilles of both Chryslers (57 and 05) look similar.
Notice the lines in the middle of the 57 and 05 Chrysler's hoods.
Also notice the rectangular taillights of both cars.
The front end styling of the new Chrysler 300 is almost IDENTICAL to the front end styling of the 1998 Chrysler Chronos concept except for the slant of the new one.
The Bentley Arnage...
"Named for one of the most challenging corners on the Le Mans racing circuit, the Arnage was fittingly introduced at the French circuit in April of 1998." from autos.msn.com
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/images/04jagxjbody.jpg
http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/v8_performance.html
(the new aluminum XJR has a 4.2 V-8)
p.s. The 2005 Jaguar Super V8 is the flagship XJ and it weighs over 800 pounds less than the BMW 760Li.
"Cool" is in the eyes of behold. Magnum sales can not compare to Taurus wagon in its hey days, nor Focus wagon today.
That's certainly a very intelligent rebuttal. I will take it as you are unable to make any counter-argument to the points I made. Namely:
(1) Lexus has higher significantly higher price of admission than MB does, even in the US (the difference is far greater in Europe)
(2) Lexus average selling price is higher than that of MB, in the US and worldwide.
What does that say about which is the higher end luxury marquee??
(3) Halo cars sold in relatively small numbers compared to the rest of the lineup do not make a high end maruqee.
Errrr...American engineers don't know what they're talking about. Only German engineers do. Don't you know that? hehehe.
you post a link to US Steel!!!
now there is an unbiased promotion!!!!
is this the best you could do?
i read all of it. and guess what....they
complain that the last version A8 is
heavier than the "steel" LS430!!duh...it
has AWD? did it ever occur to you that any weight savings made by using aluminum afford an automaker the ability to ad more equipment that other wise might make the automobile too heavy?
even after reading all of the article which is
clearly biased....the
A8 is obviously one of the most advanced
automobile designs in the world. what a joke!!
tell you what...i will go to ALCOA.... find an article about "how aluminum is better than steel"
and post a link. don't you think it might be a bit biased? duh!!!
both steel and aluminum manufacturers are fighting neck and neck to supply the auto
industry. i read an article in USA today
about a year ago that was quite interesting.
i will try to find it. hopefully it will
have less spin and sales pitch.
Or trying to make up for inadequate engineering.
the
A8 is obviously one of the most advanced
automobile designs in the world. what a joke!!
The joke is on you. Obviously, each one of LS, 7, S and A8 is "one of the most advanced automobile designs in th world." Dah! You'd think after spending that much money it ought to be.
Biased or not, the steel side certainly has the material expertise and have a long list of disadvantages for aluminum. As far as I can tell, the only counter-argument the aluminum side expert witness can provide is weight savings, which in the case of A8 is quite removed from the spirit of the vehicle.
More to the point, A8 only makes up 3% of Audi sales. How can you argue that differentiates Audi from VW? "Nonsens and spin"?
here is a link to an article from Reuters about aluminum in automobiles. it is on a biased site that promotes aluminum but the article is interesting. there is also a sub article that discusses the previous generation A8....how it received 5 stars in crash tests.
for any person to believe that an ALL ALUMINUM A8 is not different than a an ALL STEEL Phaeton...."talking to you is like a martian trying to have a discussion with a fungo"{Bull Durham).
many auto manufacturers are using aluminum today to save weight in their vehicles. the current E class has an aluminum hood, trunk and i believe front fenders. only the Audi has taken it to the advanced technical level of a completely all aluminum vehicle. whether you like Audi or not what they accomplished is very advanced.
I don't see the benefits of aluminum unless the car weighs significantly less..The point about the Audi is that even with AWD, it shouldn't weigh more..Even Jaguar's offering weighs less than it's counterpart...It's comparable to Boeing's composite 787 jetliner weighing more than the aluminum 767 it is replacing. Another problem with aluminum is the hassle in getting the thing repaired..It might make a great marketing tool, but I wouldn't want the hassle..I'll stick to steel until Mercedes or Lexus goes that way.
What I find interesting is that the world leader, Mercedes, in safety hasn't adopted this technology. I don't feel unsafe in my LS430 (Especially after taking quite a hit in my LS400), but I feel MB is first to the market with alot of safety innovations..One of the things I was most impressed with in the S Class was it's obvious sturdiness. I wouldn't be too worried about surviving a crash in that car. The Mercedes salesman mentioned something about the frame being made from one metal block rather than being welded like other cars...Is there any real significance to that?
As for Jaguar..The latest XJ is a nice car, but the Jaguar purists are not happy due to it's design..Ford attempts at preserving the look haven't worked thus far..The concepts for the new XK look good..Only time will tell...
SV
When Chrysler neeeded help they brought in Zietche and Eberhardt who both knew the US Market, at Mercedes in the US, they took a company doing very well going in the right direction and brought in what has turned out to be sub-par manangement, who had never been in the US before and they have now managed to run in it into the ground and our stock will take the hit.
Maybe Kirkorian should run it.
"Lexus LS430 290 HP...0-60... 5.9 SEC...and it gets much better gas milage."
Why don't you tell the whole truth?
Where does the A8 reach its peak HP? at 6500rpm!
Where does the LS reach its peak HP? at 5600rpm!
Torque? about the same: 317 A8 vs. 320 LS
Is (18/25 LS vs. 18/24 A8) that so much better???
The Audi weighs about 300 lb. more (8%)
Now, the discussion between alu space frame and conventional steel is very interesting. I have seen the difference between the two in the production. I can tell you that much: the alloy spaceframe is considerably harder to manufacture. It takes a lot more people to put together a spaceframe than a convantional frame, which is manufactured mostly by robots. Audi has a considerable experience in alu frames, since they are the first who did that in large scale production, as far as I know. The new Rolls-Royce is an aluminum space frame, for example.
I am not a real knowledge Auto guy...Don't know how to fix them...or build them..Only know how to buy them...Question..
If the Lexus has Almost 16% Less HP...and slightly more toque..AND IS MUCH FASTER 0-60
What is the relavance of the LS reaching Peak HP at a lower RPM...ISN'T THAT A GOOD THING.
Does a welded body have any disadvantage over the uniframe design a la Mercedes? If you were going to get into an accident, is there anything conclusive on the merits of either design?
SV
when it comes to which automobile is quicker the A8 or the LS430....the LS is quicker. i have yet to see a 0-60 time for the short wheel base
version of the A8. the 6.3 is usually what i see quoted for the long wheelbase. keep in mind that the A8 in either long or short wheelbase is AWD and I'm sure that will affect the quickness of the vehicle. as for which automobile is safer i am sure they are both equally safe in accidents regardless of the steel vs aluminum nonsense that has been filling this thread.
having said that Audi should be commended for manufacturing a unique vehicle.
the two cars/ engines have totally different characters.
LS: comfortable and refined
A8: sporty and dynamic
Compare it to the M5/M6 engine: V10, 5liters, 507 HP@7750rpm, 383 ft-lbs@6100rpm
The A8 short and long wheelbase are supposed to be the same from 0-60 (6.3s), based on the audiusa website. Either that is a little too optimistic for the long wheelbase or too slow for the short wheelbase. Alright, after reviewing the German Audi website, I found out that the A8 SWB goes from 1-100kph in 6.3s and the LWB takes 6.4s. Because 0-100kph equals 0-62mph, in order to be fair, you have to take off 0.1 or 0.2 seconds off to get the 'real' 0-60 time. Also, don't forget that the A8 is AWD which will slow it down in pure acceleration compared to the LS. However AWD gives you better traction at the limit.
What does that mean? If you ask me? NOTHING. How many luxury car owners in here take their car regularly on the track? How many have driven their LS or whatever on a track? There is nothing to prove it, my opinion is that the A8 will be faster driven at the limit. And I don't mean pure acceleration. Speed in curves is more important on a track.
Really people, the way most people drive these cars, they only get the cars to 60-70% of their potential. It's more about knowing that you could if you wanted.
The uniframe design on the other hand is more like a skeleton. Conceptually it should be stiffer.
What does this mean in an accident?
Well it depends, the key here is that in an accident you have to bend as much metal as possible to take out the energy of the crash without hurting the people that are inside. Weight is also another consideration because the heavier car will be less damaged in an accident. Safety is a very hard thing to do right because it's not JUST that they try to make to frame as hard as they can. You want to absorb most of the energy in the front where the engine is (in a frontal crash).
Conclusion: safety depends more on how good of a job the engineers have done rather than how stiff the frame is. I personally don't believe that there are cosiderable differences between any serious lux car.
Don't forget, the stiffer the frame the sportier, therefore I assume that Lexus would be more on the soft side since they are more on comfort than sport.
when you look at the numbers...The LS is both comfortable and refined and Sporty and Dynamic...
How else do you explain both the faster 0-60 time and the slightly stronger gear ratio?? in the LS..As far as faster on the Road...Well you made a GUESS...But we don't have to guess about which is actually faster....
PS. Because of the Audi's greater Turning Radius and great weight I would GUESS it is not faster on the Road either. BUT, that is just MY guess.
Do Dynamic Sporty Cars generally have 4wd, how about Race cars? just curious...I do believe the Hot little Subury does have AWD ...Maybe Audi is in that catagory..Just isn't as fast.
All new Subarus are AWD...
You probably refered to the WRX, which is the street legal version of the worldcup rallye car. The WRX has about 300 hp and is very light. Sure it's fast. Same with the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, a Euro version of the Ford Focus...
Other race/sport cars with AWD:
1. Porsche 911 Turbo
2. Lamborgini Murcielago
3. Lamborgini Gallardo (built by Audi)
4. Audi Le Mans (the new super sport check it out at the Future Vehicles seciton)
5. Nissan Skyline (but this is not a 'real' super sport)
6. we might also add the one and only Audi Coupe Quattro
...I can't think of any more, right now...
Back in the early 80's Audi racecars dominated in rallye and touring cars...they were the first ones to do that. My point is that Audi has extensive race experience. I don't want to say that Toyota doesn't have any race, but not as much as Audi...
Acura? NO
Infinity? NO
See the answer here:
http://www.carpages.co.uk/audi/audi-a6-18-02-05.asp?switched=on&e- cho=154506977
You make a good point about Audi. But is AWD really needed on a Luxo-Cruiser that is likely going back and forth to the office? I'd definitely see the benefit on the S8 though. Like you said, it's not like anyone is racing these cars. I looked at your link and found something interesting:
"They rated the 36 candidates based both on objective criteria, such as product characteristics, and on their emotional charisma: the "wow" factor is clearly just as important an evaluation criteria as safety & environment or value for money."
I think this perfectly illustrates the difference between Lexus and German marque owners and maybe even US and European buyers..We discount the "wow" factor in favor of the objectives. This is not meant to diminish the Audi in anyway. I feel each brand has its' own personality cult. If you were to take an unscientific survey on this board you'd come to the same conclusion. Perhaps this is why Europe has always been hesitant towards Japanese cars. I think it's really the cultural difference.
SV