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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • charlienmr1charlienmr1 Member Posts: 7
    I don't drive an Audi or a Lexus, but I am highly amused by the belief that the US Steel information on steel versus aluminum is not just a bit of biased advertising. How about looking at the biased aluminum side of things.

    http://www.autoaluminum.org/crash.htm

    Oh my, aluminum is better in a crash than steel.

    Or how about a paper by some MIT engineers, who studied the two materials.

    http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0108/Kelkar-0108.html

    You can go on and on about this issue. Aluminum has advantages and so does steel. I won't bother to try to interpret the engineering data that one can easily find in abundance. Just don't try to give a totally one sided view of something based on just one side of the story.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Nope I've never disagreed with you about the business end. I've said from day one that you were correct about the aspect of this discussion as you continue to be. The only thing I disagreed with was the theory about the average buyer caring about such business dealing or that Mercedes would lose their ability to sell cars because of their corporate problems. They haven't lost the ability to sell cars for a premium over Lexus or anyone else. That is where I disagreed and still do. There has been no big sales drop or even a drop at all in the U.S. market. The car you said would be the start of the end, the S-Class is still more popular in its class than everything else, except the much cheaper LS. The new S-Class will be hugely popular so they haven't lost any selling ability like you predicted. That is where I disagree totally. The SL, CL, SLR and Maybach all still sell. Sure the Maybach forecast was way to optimistic, as was Rolls-Royce's. They misjudged the market size, but that is another issue.

    That they have a profit problem now I never doubted would happen. Honestly I thought it would have happened sooner considering the the three problem Mercedes, 1998 ML, 2000 S, and the 2001 C-Class have been on the road for a while and the warranty costs should have shot through the roof a few years ago. It's like you said it take time for things like that to catch up with a company and when they do....look out! I agree totally.

    But hey you know me I'm more into the actual cars than the business end, but not totally at the expense of the company or common sense like Ferdinand Piech and his VW projects. Even I realize Mercedes isn't healthy enough to go chasing Ferrari with limited production, slim-profit sports cars. See...lol?

    This new guy has made some tough decisions and I think he's right the ship. Never before has MB head ever stop development of a vehicle in order to examine cost. Mercedes always kept right on developing a vehicle no matter how much it costs in the past. I can only imagine what he is doing that German pride will never allow to be revealed. I say in 2-3 years you'll see a real difference in those things you keep up with, which on the car side certain new models are already being physically built better (SLK, CLS) and we'll just have to see how their reliability holds up.

    M
  • gs450gs450 Member Posts: 10
    Just curious as to everyone's thoughts on the COMAND system in the current mercedes models. What direction do you think Mercedes should take with their new models, interface everything through a touch screen like the new Cadillac STS, or go the BMW route with something like I-drive but make it so that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to use all the functions.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Good question and we will find out when the new S-Class is shown in Sept.

    I think I read somewhere where Mercedes plans to implement their version of idrive/MMI, but only for the Nav functions, not almost everything as in the BMW system.

    I personally think they should set it up more or less like the Acura RL. You can use the controller to do everything or nothing at all.

    That way you have a choice. No choice as with idrive is a mistake, imo.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    If I were MB, I will completely do away with those yucky buttons that litter the dash. Do a simple touch screen for the Nav a la Lexus. Use touch buttons that fits snugly with the dash like the ones in the new GS to control the audio, climate, etc.. The key is to keep the dashboard clean and uncluttered. IOW, make it simple, yet elegant !
  • gs450gs450 Member Posts: 10
    Merc1,

    I lived in the middle east for a number of years, and as im sure you know they have the S320 (now S350) there and its quite popular as well. One thing that always upset me about Mercedes was the fact that they offered these stripped down versions of S320s, and when i say stripped, i mean cars without even leather seats, let alone other options that one would expect on such an expensive vehicle. The shocking thing is that they still sell them by the truckload. Just curious as to what your take is on Mercedes selling S-classes so devoid of features.
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    My sense is that the Europeans think Americans are wierd with regard our equating leather seats with "luxury".
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    It's a cultural thing, several people in Europe prefer a nice fabric over leather. Cashmere after all is more expensive than Connolly leather... (not saying that they use Cashmere, of course not, but there is something to be said for the breathability of good quality fabrics).

    And sometimes, the less one has, the fewer things break. Popular with people that put many miles on their cars, they'd rather have top notch lumbar support than several gimmicky features...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I think they should sell what is popular in whatever market they're in. Here an S-Class without leather and all the goodies simply wouldn't fly and I'm not sure I'd want one like that either to tell you the truth.

    The thing I'd like to see from Mercedes and BMW, Jaguar and Audi are smaller engined versions of their flagship cars. You know like the S350, 740i (300hp V8), XJ6 and XJ8 (3.5L V8) and the smaller V8 version of the A8..I forget the displacement and hp ratings at the moment. Of course I'd love to see more diesels since BMW and Mercedes have really reached the pinnacle in Diesel engine development. The new 3.0L V6 CDI engine is awesome and BMW's new 3.0L I6 diesel kicks out 272hp and like over 350lb-ft of torque. More diesels will come after 2006, but the smaller petrol engine versions of their flagships I don't think will ever be sold here.

    These smaller engine versions would be a buyers only chance to get some of the features deleted (or made optional) on a S-Class/7-Series level car, they'll never do it on the versions they import here now.

    I noticed your handle, are you holding out to buy a GS450h or the updated petrol GS450?

    M
  • gs450gs450 Member Posts: 10
    Even though i am a lexus fan, like Oac and lexusguy i have been disappointed with the direction lexus has taken with the new GS. It seems that they still aren't gonna challenge BMW when it comes to driving dynamics and mercedes with the horsepower war. In an ideal world i would probably want to buy the new CLS especially with the new mb v8 next year, but with the direction mercedes' reliability has been going these last few years i can't bring myself to get one. Infiniti really seems to be catching my eye but they still have to go some way before i consider them on the same level with BMW, MB, and lexus.
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    if so, whaddya think? Even though it may not be a direct competitor to the RL, GS or M, many will compare it when looking for a new car in this price range.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Interesing, so then you're kinda stuck on a decision then huh? Of course of the cars mentioned I like the CLS the most, by far.

    The GS has always been a curious animal at Lexus. It was never sporty enough to challenge BMW and doesn't have the variants to challenge the E-Class. I don't think Lexus well ever change their beliefs about a car of this size to seriously challenge BMW's 5-Series. With Infiniti also playing the sport card very well with the new M35/M45 I think the GS will once again be an afterthought in the class.

    Now their new IS, due to be shown any day now may be a fundamental shift in policy because they already have the ES330 for the folks who couldn't care less about actual "driving".

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "... ES330 for the folks who couldn't care less about actual "driving"."

    Fortunately for Lexus, these are the real paying customers - the ones that butters Lexus' bread, so to speak. All cars cannot be the same to all people. It may surprise you Merc1, that there are far more people who love cushy, quiet, luxurious, ride than those who'd suffer through bone-jarring rides of your typical performance machines. The former overwhelmingly prefers Lexus, while the latter are dispersed among the other brands - MB, BMW, Audi, and now Infiniti.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think you took my post wrong and/or missed the point. Of course I understand that a lot like the ES type of ride, but I wouldnt' agree that they are the majority, in fact they're a dying breed as everyone is making their cars sportier and/or searching for a better ride/handling compromise with each redesign.

    I have older relatives, friends, neighbors who love their ES330s, DeVilles and everything else that isn't done up in the sports sedan theme.

    Your post illustrates my point perfectly though, Lexus and "sport" simply aren't used in the same sentence by most and thus their sportier cars are passed over by a huge margin, that was my point. Not whether or not cars like the ES330 have a purpose or market.

    I also wouldn't consider a M35/45 or 5-Series a bone jarring ride either. We aren't talking M5s or C55 AMGs here. There are cars that combine sport and luxury with plenty of each, but cars like the ES throw handling out the window completely. The ES is alone when it comes to import luxury cars, nobody else is even playing the same game, hence its popularity. Not a bad business.

    M
  • jovialanusjovialanus Member Posts: 5
    "What has MB done for the industry in the last 15 years?...Yes, MB has managed to do more here in 120 years than Lexus has in 15. "

    You must have been living under a rock for the last 15 years. Even if we disregard countless Mercedes innovations and only include those introduced since 1989 Mercedes STILL trumps Lexus by a wide margin. Virtually every safety feature in every Lexus car was pioneered and introduced first by Mercedes, if not Volvo or BMW. In fact, Lexus has contributed NOTHING in the way of safety. The LS430 flagship sedan doesn't even offer rear side airbags!

    Mercedes Safety Firsts (1989-2005):

    1989: Front Passenger Airbag
    1989: Automatic Roll-bar
    1992: Electronic Brake Proportioning System
    1995: Electronic Stability Control
    1996: Brake Assist
    1998: Rear Seatbelt ETDs and Load Limiters
    1998: First Crash Compatible SUV
    1998: Dual Stage Airbags
    1999: Side Curtain Airbags
    2001: First Electro-hydraulic Braking System
    2002: Pre-Safe I

    BMW Safety Firsts: (1989-2005)

    1994: Interlocking Door Anchor System
    1994: 4-Channel ABS Braking System
    1994: Dual Threshold Airbag Deployment
    1997: Head Protection Side Airbags
    1997: Battery Safety Terminal
    1998: Rear Side Airbags
    1998: Emergency Telematics
    2001: Driver and Passenger Knee Airbags
    2002: Adaptive Brake Lights

    Volvo Safety Firsts: (1989-2005)

    1990: 3-Point Rear Center Seatbelt
    1991: SIPS
    1994: Front Side Airbags
    1998: WHIPS
    2002: Roll Stability Control

    Lexus Safety Firsts: (1989-2005)

    *CRICKET*

    As far as safety is concerned Lexus has contributed absolutely nothing. Not only has that, but Lexus often trails behind several years before it adopts new technology. For example, it took Lexus until 1992 to adopt the front passenger airbag, 4 years behind Mercedes. Again, it took Lexus until 1999 to adopt Electronic Stability Control, 4 years behind Mercedes. BMW introduced head protection airbags in 1997, 2 years before Lexus. Volvo introduced side airbags in 1994, 3 years before Lexus.

    Even now, many Lexus vehicles lack the most basic safety features found in competing cars. For example, you won't be able to find a single Lexus model that offers rear side airbags. Mercedes provides rear side airbags as standard equipment and BMW as optional. The GS430 and IS300 don't offer rear side head protection airbags; a standard feature on all Mercedes, BMW and Volvo vehicles. The 1989 Mercedes SL was the first convertible to offer and automatic roll bar. 16 years later the 2005 Lexus SC430 doesn't offer any such system, even though the BMW 3, Audi A4 and Volvo S70 convertibles do for half the price. The LS430 and ES330 the only Lexus vehicle that offers rear seatbelt ETD and force limiters; standard features across the entire model line with Mercedes and Volvo and optional on most BMW.

    Face it, Lexus has never been a leader in safety innovation nor have they shown any particular dedication to safety. Mercedes on the other hand, has been concerned with safety as its top priority since day 1.

    "Do any of its RECENT innovations even begin to compare with the importance of hybrid powertrains?"

    Well considering that Mercedes’ pioneering ESP system alone accounts for a 56% reduction in fatal single vehicle crashes... I would say that just this single recent innovation easily trumps the importance of hybrid powertrains.

    "Do you find it meaningless, in a competitive sense, that a brand has gone from nonexistent to number 1 right under MB's nose?"

    Is it remarkable that Toyota managed to sell so many "Lexus" vehicles since 1989? Yes it is. But to say Lexus is "number 1" is your obviously biased opinion. By "number 1" I assume you mean number 1 in sales? If so, don't forget to account for cost. Lexus sells its cars for less money than does Mercedes, thus it is only logical that Lexus would sell more cars. Kia sells more Spectras than Lexus sells more LS430s... that doesn't make the Spectra a better car; it's simply a function of cost.

    Lexus is like that fat kid in grade school who was always copying everyones homework because he was too lazy/stupid to do his own.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm afraid I've been over this time and time again on this board, all you'll get is one of six responses:

    1. These things don't matter because they aren't easily related to a JDP/CR survey.

    2. They don't work as advertised, which goes back to JDP/CR and the whole reliability sermon.

    3. Mercedes profits aren't what they should be.

    4. You may even get a post or two saying that Lexus has the equivalent things on their cars. Not!

    5. These things pale next to Mark Levinson sound systems and Nav systems. Who needs rollover protection on a SC430 when the nav/stereo are so great? This was actually suggested before.

    6. Ultimate survey'd reliability is safety.

    All that technical stuff is simply matterless unless JDP, CR, FT, or the WSJ gives it the ok.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Seriously though looking at that list it is clear to me that European car makers focus more on the mechanical nuts and bolts tech innovations and a less on the interior/convenience features while the Japanese do without certain technical innovations, but concentrate more on things people can see and use more everyday, which is really why both camps have enjoy a wide following.

    Between Mercedes, Volvo, Renault, Saab, Audi and that other French company, the Europeans have always lead in safety.

    M
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    great post.
    let the Japanese finally spend some money on new technologies in the hybrid area. i won't be offended if the Germans copy it. turn about it fair play. the kicker is the Germans already make fantastic diesels that equal or surpass what is currently available in hybrid form.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    More of the same nonsense on this board...Who cares who built it first? Are you implying this makes the LS430 unsafe? Offer some proof in the form of percent fatalities per crash..Last time I checked the LS430 gets the same crash ratings as any other Lux car. If the LS430 were less safe you can bet the press would jump all over it.

    Yet again this is a lame attempt to deny Lexus the credit it deserves. Also, Jaguar has done none of the thing you've outlined above..Does this make the XJ a lesser car??

    It's Japan's M.O. to let someone else spend the R&D money and then copy the design, and improving it in the process. The Japanese didn't even invent the television, yet Sony and Panasonic dominate the market. The pattern has been repeated in many other markets. Get over it already. Do you think anyone cares who built it first?? This is a real desperate attempt to slam Lexus..

    Seeing that I've worked in the Engineering industry for over 30 yrs I see this in practice all the time. Xerox did most of the ground work for MS-DOS, yet Bill Gates got all of the credit. Do you think Xerox would trade the "Prestige of being first" for the Billions Microsoft is worth today?! Give me a break!!!

    Profits always take precedence over prestige. If you don't believe that, then I hope you're not running a company. It's smart business for Lexus to let someone else take the risk. I've never even seen this point made in any car magazine. Sorry pal, if prestige was the sole factor in selling cars, no one would buy a Lexus.

    Lexus prices for less, because their COSTS are less. No one can deny the superiority of the TPS system. It's not Lexus' fault that the German marques can't match their efficiency. As for who is the better car, read the Car mags. I always see the LS430 either first or in the top three..Not bad for an "unsafe" car...

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    These people don't wnat to understand the business side. They are purists and purists are always a tiny minority that doesn't understand the greater needs of the buying public. You can see it in sports if you look. The NFL and MLB know their market, hence more scoring, bigger crowds, big TV contracts and minting money. The NHL - run by purists who want to preserve hockey the way it is till it dies, hence no big revenue sources, little fan interest and nearly out of business. If there was a smart business person there they would have altered the rules in 1994 and be thriving now.

    Toyota spends $6bln a year on R&D but these folks think that they are doing nothing. What a joke. Meanwhile they have locked in tons of patents on hybrids and from past readings they are expected to be the leader in hydrogen fuel cells. No one on here seems to understand that the best capitalized company is always the leader in the areas of major change. Instead we have a nice bunch of penny-wise/pound foolish stuff to look at that is pages long. The smart business takes care of the major innovations and let's the niche player develop the small stuff. That is the way it is most of the time not just in cars but in everything.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    1. If you look at my original post, I never claimed that Lexus has out-innovated MB specifically in SAFETY since 1990. I did claim that, since 1990, Toyota/Lexus innovations IN TOTAL are at least as significant to the industry as MB innovations.

    2. For all of MB’s 120 years of safety innovations, does the S-class actually end up safer than the 15-year-young LS? Actually, not according to real-world data. Check the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety website:
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm
    and you’ll find that the LS has 16% LESS personal injury losses than the S (46 vs 55 based on 100 equaling average injury losses…both are very safe, but the LS is clearly SAFER).

    "Mercedes on the other hand, has been concerned with safety as its top priority since day 1." Maybe so, but it seems Lexus has done a better job of it, based on real-world hard numbers.

    3. “Well considering that Mercedes’ pioneering ESP system alone accounts for a 56% reduction in fatal single vehicle crashes... I would say that just this single recent innovation easily trumps the importance of hybrid powertrains.” I have to disagree here. You seem to take fatalities as the measure of a carmaker’s worth to the world. What about fatalities due to pollution? Do you recognize that hybrid powertrains, once more widely adopted (including by the Germans, once they “copy” the technology), will save many many lives due to fuel savings and hence lower emissions?

    From the Washington Post: "The researchers examined the health effects of reducing greenhouse gas emissions by focusng on four cities: New York City, Mexico City, Santiago in Chile and Sao Paulo in Brazil. They found that using readily available technologies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions would also cut emissions of pollutants, because both are released when fossil fuels such as coal, oil and natural gas are burned. And those reductions would avoid 64,000 premature deaths, 65,000 cases of chronic bronchitis and 37 million person-days of restricted activity IN JUST THOSE FOUR CITIES over the next 19 years."

    The quote isn't particular to hybrids and is only intended to show that reducing pollution saves lives just as surely as incremental airbags. Exactly how many lives might be saved by hybrid technology over the next couple of decades I don't know, and don't have the time to try to calculate.

    Now I know that someone is going to mention diesels and my response is, diesels have been in cars for almost 70 years, they aren't exactly a recent innovation.

    4. By "number 1" yes I did mean U.S. vehicle sales. To your point that "Lexus sells its cars for less money than does Mercedes, thus it is only logical that Lexus would sell more cars." I would respond:

    a. MB's U.S. product line actually starts LOWER in price than does Lexus'. If you eliminate all of MB's models at price points higher than Lexus' highest price point, Lexus still outsells MB in the U.S., only by a wider margin. MB product is available in the entire Lexus pricerange, and then some. Why can't MB outsell Lexus if price is the barrier?

    b. Some value needs to be accorded MB's higher prestige. If a Timex watch were physically IDENTICAL to a Rolex, except for the brand name, don't you think Rolex could still price somewhat higher, but sell the same number of units as the physically same but lower-prestige Timex?

    Since MB has more "content" in the form of prestige, it follows that consumers should be willing to pay a little more but still buy it in the same numbers as Lexus. But they don't.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Syswei,
    Interesting Post..I looked over those numbers and found something quite entertaining. It seems all of the high end cars were stolen quite frequently. Don't you think for the price we all pay they could build a better security system?

    Now that I think of it, it's likely those who steal these cars are high end professional car thieves. I wonder if there is a low tech solution to all of this..

    SV
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Jovialanus:

    It is true..Lexus takes innovations from Mercedes and Volvo and others...They work with them to make them better and more reliable BEFORE they put them in their car....

    What is the value of a safety feature if you don't know for certain that it will work when you need it...Mercedes rushes their innovations into production, Lexus perfects them first...I like the Lexus approach..You will say you like the Mercedes approach...Different strokes.

    In a lexus you know it will work.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They stole Schrempps $400K armored S-class in broad daylight. It seems all the electronics failed on it. It was another laughingstock story that made the presses a month or so ago.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Every now and then MB fans get stuck on someone's list of MB technical accomplishments.

    It's always fun to find out if they are really true. Sometimes, it's interesting to go to the US Patent Office to verify or invalidate some claims.

    However, just using Google helps too.

    So, type in "Who invented air bags" and here's what you get from the about dot com website. They paint a different picture of the first item in the list above:

    "General Motors tested air bags on the 1973 model Chevrolet that were only sold for government use. GM later did offer an option to the public of driver side airbags in full-sized Oldsmobile's and Buick's in 1975 and 1976, Cadillac's were available with driver and passenger air bags during those same years. Air bags were offered once again as an option on the 1984 Ford Tempo. By 1988, Chrysler became the first company to offer air bag restraint systems as standard equipment. In 1994, TRW began production of the first gas-inflated air bag.

    Looks like to me, that MB was about a decade later than Cadillac. The American Allen Breek is generally considered the inventor of the modern automotive air bag, including those that 'deflate' as the bag is used to absorb energy from a passenger.

    One down, more to go.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc.

    The fact of the matter is as the Baby Boomers continue to age...They will want more Comfort in their cars...Good bye Hard ride and hard cornering. The ES is ideal for this population..That is why This Population continues to buy it in increasing numbers.

    It seems to me that based on your inside knowledge...Mercedes is pointed at the wrong market..Or has given up trying to compete against Lexus and is shifting it's sights to BMW and Audi and VW?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    The Japanese makers do not do without Technical innovations....They simply make them better after Mercedes creates them so they are sure they work before they put them in their cars...

    Not fair you may say...But it is good business...
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    Before we descend into yet another Lexus vs Germany bashing session....Has anyone come out with a really effective security solution for our cars? I looked at my insurance bill and my car is classified as a high theft risk..Obviously, despite the factory alarm system, the car is stolen alot..Has anyone come up with unique ways to safeguard the car?

    I had my wife's Camry fitted with a simple $50 kill switch hidden near the gas pedal. I don't think a thief would want to bother fumbling around for too long. It's simple yet effective, especially if placed where a thief would never guess..

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "The Japanese makers do not do without Technical innovations....They simply make them better after Mercedes creates them so they are sure they work before they put them in their cars..."

    If anyone here can give one example of this I'll be more than happy to read about it. Just one example in like 2 years of hearing this claim would be nice.

    I honestly would like to read about how any of these things that MB/Volvo/BMW brought to the market and how they didn't work, and then Toyota made them work. Does this claim include airbags, abs, esp or anything else on the list given earlier? Another very old claim with not one shredd of proof ever given.

    syswei,

    Hybrids save lives? Fatalities due to polution? I'm surprised at that notion. Sounds awfully desperate to me. Projected lives saved vs. those at least thought to already to be saved? Why just estimate how many cars are on the road with airbags and count all those being as having their lives saved too?

    It seems you and Ljflx just cannot give credit where credit is due. Mercedes, Volvo, GM, BMW and others did all the work so your Lexus would be a safe vehicle. Yet these innovations don't mean anything but in the same sentence hybrids and their associated patents are supposed to mean something? One group of innovators and innovations don't mean anything because Toyota didn't do it? Yet we're supposed to hold Toyota is such esteem because they have finally found something they can do original work on, hybrids?

    Sound like a double standard to me.

    Footie,

    I knew you were going to catch that about the airbags. My list of innovators would definitely include GM too, specifically Cadillac. GM was first with an airbag, but Mercedes and Chryler brought them to market before GM, but you are correct GM had the idea first. The GM cars with airbags in the late seventies were never sold the public.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There is no double standard on my end. I do recognize that MB has innovated. I'm just saying that Toyota/Lexus have too, something that some German car fans don't seem to credit.

    The score just isn't MB 1, Lexus 0 when it comes to innovation.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "These people don't wnat to understand the business side. They are purists and purists are always a tiny minority that doesn't understand the greater needs of the buying public.

    Yet European cars have a huge following. There is nothing tiny about it. To say European car makers doesn't understand the needs of the greater buying public is to imply they don't know their market. Totally false. Beside Suvs and hybrids, all relatively new things, they've hit every other market segment they've entered. If there is anything most German car companies know it is their respective markets, well except VW which seems confused about its status.

    But your first sentence does illustrate why this debate will never be settled. Each side has different criteria, and I think I touched on that in my post #7919. This is really pointless because each side has it set in their mind what makes the brand, though I still strongly disagree that any buyers care about the "business" side of a car company. Sales numbers don't agree with this notion, because if they did certain companies including Mercedes, VW and Audi wouldn't be able to sell anything. People don't care about no business side when they go to buy a car.

    "Toyota spends $6bln a year on R&D but these folks think that they are doing nothing.

    You turned it around. Nobody said they weren't doing anything, just that they didn't do what the original poster claimed. I just read where Toyota spends about half of that on hybrids, hence their dominace there. Dominace there, lacking little things to you elsewhere.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok, fair enough. The score isn't 1 to 0 either, I agree. Its more like 10 to 3 or something like that. I'll even go you one more, Toyota's TPS system is very innovative. I've read quite a bit about it too.

    I think the fundamental difference here is what Lenn stated. Each side has their own criteria and the opposite side will probably never measure up in the repsective eyes.

    A older guy (about 90 or so) told me that:

    "Karl & "Gotleeb"(Daimler and Benz) invented it"

    "Ford (Henry)show'd the world how to build it"

    "Cadillac show'd em how to make'em quality"

    I laugh every time I think of they way he said it. You had to be there I guess.

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    This is discussion is borderline childish..

    "Mercedes, Volvo, GM, BMW and others did all the work so your Lexus would be a safe vehicle. "

    Who cares who brought it first to market?? If any of you have taken a single business class you'll see First Mover Advantage isn't a guarantee of being the best..I'm willing to bet Toyota has made a fortune licensing their hybrid technology, more than Mercedes has being first to market with safety innovations.

    Last time I checked, these companies are in the business of making money..Prestige doesn't pay the workers or build factories, profits do..

    "Hybrids save lives? Fatalities due to polution? I'm surprised at that notion. Sounds awfully desperate to me. "

    Umm, yeah, pollution is a serious problem. Have you ever been to Delhi? I just read an article saying that emissions cause 20K deaths in LA alone. Here's the link:
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/22/diesel.pollution.ap/

    Granted this particular article focuses on diesel only but the argument follows to normal emissions. You're correct to say Air Bags are a great innovation by GM...But how many people actually care that their Toyota's airbag was originally designed by GM? I doubt they even realize it. Does anyone care who invented the seat belt? No...

    If you're going to try and argue MB is better why don't you try something tangible like Handling or original design? Your argument would be much stronger there. Those qualities is what almost made me buy the S Class instead of another LS.

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "Hybrids save lives? Fatalities due to polution? I'm surprised at that notion. Sounds awfully desperate to me. Projected lives saved vs. those at least thought to already to be saved?"

    How many lives did various MB safety innovations save in the very early years of their adoption cycle? Not as many as they have saved once the technologies became widely adopted. But that shouldn't diminsh the value of those innovations.

    Just as you should not diminish the value of hybrid as an innovation, merely because it is early in its adoption cycle.

    BTW, there might be EPA data that estimate the number of lives lost per unit of each pollutant (except for carbon dioxide, whose contribution to global warming is still debated by some), and in theory one could estimate the life-saving contribution of hybrid technology.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If nobody cares who first brought these thing to market then what makes you think people by the same token care about how much money Toyota has made? For a person that doesn't care about any of this, both facts are lost on them. However these innovations are in everyones cars today and probably wouldn't be if weren't for MB,BMW,GM and others. Or at least they wouldn't be as advanced as they are today. The same exact things will be written about Toyota and Hybrids in the future.

    The point the orignal poster was making (I think) is that Toyota/Lexus shouldn't be seen in same light because they haven't worked nearly as hard compared to the others.

    Buyers don't walk into a showroom asking how much money Toyota is going to make off a Hybrid.

    I agree pollution is a serious problem and its one Toyota couldn't even hope to build enough hybrids to offset the number of trucks, busses and other pollution spewing things of the world. I'm sorry but I find the argument of Toyota saving lives based on projections compared to live already saved by various safety innovations from various other carmakers, to be ridiculous and beyond reaching.

    Hybrids aren't on the road yet in sufficient numbers to do anything yet, but cars with all the above safety equipment is in your driveway and everyone else's on this thread..right now.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "How many lives did various MB safety innovations save in the very early years of their adoption cycle? Not as many as they have saved once the technologies became widely adopted. But that shouldn't diminsh the value of those innovations.

    Good point. Never thought of it that way, there is some real meat to that.

    "BTW, there might be EPA data that estimate the number of lives lost per unit of each pollutant (except for carbon dioxide, whose contribution to global warming is still debated by some), and in theory one could estimate the life-saving contribution of hybrid technology.

    True, but this is basically guesswork compared to hard data on ABS, Airbags etc. that we know have saved lives already. Not saying it isn't true, only that it hasn't been proven yet.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I wasn't referring to the car makers, I was referring to people on this board. I simply gave the NHL as an example as what can happen if purists don't expand their ideas to broader needs.

    I agree with your comment about sportier styled cars but not at all about sportier handling. Most people want adequate handling and nothing more. Cars that accent performance are seeking a niche crowd, always have been, always will be. I hardly think the American public is ready, willing and in many cases able to pay higher prices for performance cars or the high insurance costs they bring with them.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    > ..Prestige doesn't pay the workers or build
    > factories, profits do..

    If you're talking luxury industry, prestige is everything. It is a paradox that you make more money by ignoring engineering-for-cost as the only priority, but that's the way it works with true luxury products. Prestife is crucial, and if one neglects to nourish that image very carefully at all levels it is going to become a huge problem for a luxury brand.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Just curious, since the existence of the A series in Europe is seen as such a blatant problem in MB's perception as a luxury brand, whether BMW's very successful introduction of the 1 series is seen as something that poses a threat to the BMW image. Personally, I don't think so. Luxury brands do possess more elasticity than people realize. The luxury image suffers when a product is garbage. But one can leverage the luxury brand name into a lower end market, provided the product commands a significant premium and measures extremely favorably against products in the same market niche.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    My 2 cents are that while going downmarket may not destroy a brand, it can dilute the brand image. Part of what a luxury brand offers is exclusivity. If the brand name is overdistributed by going downmarket then the exclusivity aspect and the associated prestige is diminished.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    If you look at my original post, I never claimed that Lexus has out-innovated MB specifically in SAFETY since 1990. I did claim that, since 1990, Toyota/Lexus innovations IN TOTAL are at least as significant to the industry as MB innovations.

    Really? Would you please provide a list of Toyota/Lexus innovations, in total, since 1990 that make them "at least as significant" to MB innovations?

    For all of MB’s 120 years of safety innovations, does the S-class actually end up safer than the 15-year-young LS? Actually, not according to real-world data. Check the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety website...you’ll find that the LS has 16% LESS personal injury losses than the S (46 vs 55 based on 100 equaling average injury losses…both are very safe, but the LS is clearly SAFER).

    Wow, this is probably the most inaccurate and misleading post I have read in a long time. First of all, you can't compare numbers for cars in different classes. Notice how the S class is rated as a "very large" car and the LS is a "large" car. Secondly, the injury loss rate is of little to no value when determining the overall safety of a car, ESPECIALLY when the numbers are so close as is this case.

    Driver demographics, location demographics and a certain degree of randomness all affect these numbers. For example, I think it would be fair to assume that the LS is more likely to be driven by older, more experienced drivers. The S on the other hand, has greater appeal to hotshot young males with money, who like to drive fast and recklessly. Who would you expect to drive into a tree more often and with greater force?

    And you still haven't been able to explain away the following, since Lexus is such a safety conscious brand and all:

    -Lexus doesn't offer rear side airbags on ANY of its vehicles. (Standard across MB line)
    -Lexus doesn't offer rollover protection on its SC430 convertible. (Standard on the SL since 1989)
    -Lexus doesn't offer rear head airbags on the IS or GS. (Standard across entire MB line)
    -Lexus doesn't offer head protection airbags on its SC430 convertible. (SL does)
    -Lexus doesn't offer standard ESC on its IS300 (Standard across entire MB line since 1999).
    -Lexus doesn't off rear seatbelt ETDs or load limiters, except on the LS and ES. (Standard across entire MB line).
    -Lexus doesn't offer emergency telematics on any vehicle. (Available across entire MB)
    -Lexus doesn't offer battery disconnect/fuel shutoff. (Standard across entire BMW line).

    These are just a few of the safety features that Lexus lacks in comparison to MB vehicles. Not to mention the fact that the safety features that Lexus does have, were all introduced several years after MB.

    I have to disagree here. You seem to take fatalities as the measure of a carmaker’s worth to the world. What about fatalities due to pollution? Do you recognize that hybrid power trains, once more widely adopted (including by the Germans, once they “copy” the technology), will save many lives due to fuel savings and hence lower emissions?

    Well, I guess if a 56% reduction in single vehicle fatalities due ONE of Mercedes' countless innovations isn't impressive to you, I don't know what would be. I can't discredit Toyota/Lexus for their work with hybrid technology, but this technology is still in its infancy and isn’t even an economically sound alternative to regular fuel engines. I’m not sure that hybrid technology really qualifies as a “safety feature” more like an environmental feature. When the IIHS issues a report that hybrid technology accounts for a 56% reduction in fatalities, let me know.

    MB's U.S. product line actually starts LOWER in price than does Lexus'. If you eliminate all of MB's models at price points higher than Lexus' highest price point, Lexus still outsells MB in the U.S., only by a wider margin. MB product is available in the entire Lexus price range, and then some. Why can't MB outsell Lexus if price is the barrier?

    I’m not sure where you got your numbers from, but all I had to do was visit the Lexus and MB website to disprove this theory. Here are the following BASE prices for competing Lexus and MB cars:

    S430: $77,970
    LS430: $56,225

    SL500: $92,020
    SC430: $63,575

    E350: $50,770
    GS300: $38,875

    ML350: $38,670
    RX330: $36,025

    C230: $29,970
    IS300: $30,280

    With the exception of the IS, every Lexus vehicle is significantly less expensive than base Mercedes vehicles with no options. As soon as you upgrade the engine or add some options, the price difference soars exponentially. So essentially, yes there is a price barrier… a HUGE price barrier.

    Some value needs to be accorded MB's higher prestige. If a Timex watch were physically IDENTICAL to a Rolex, except for the brand name, don't you think Rolex could still price somewhat higher, but sell the same number of units as the physically same but lower-prestige Timex?

    No I don’t. First of all, Timex watches and Rolex watches aren’t identical, much the same as MB and Lexus aren’t identical. Second of all, even if Rolex did price its watches “somewhat” higher than a Timex, it still wouldn’t sell as many as the lower priced Timex. The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product, as is the case for watches or cars. I’ve already shown you that MB vehicles are much more expensive than Lexus, so this effect is only magnified.

    Since MB has more "content" in the form of prestige, it follows that consumers should be willing to pay a little more but still buy it in the same numbers as Lexus. But they don't.

    Again, consumers aren’t paying “a little more” they are paying on the order of 10k-30k more for BASE MB models compared to loaded Lexus models. Adding options and engines to MB models only exacerbates this difference.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I think this "innovation" argument is one of the more pointless and certainly one of the tiredest that goes on here.

    For the most part ... the *most* part ... most of you agree that the Germans have come up with more innovations and Toyota/Lexus has refined (copied, whatever) those innovations to be more reliable than the Germans presented in the first place. I don't see a general disagreement about that and am not sure that it makes any sense for anyone to be "keeping score" about who did what first. Why does anyone care?

    And I sure don't see the point of doing all the stretching that some of you do to continue to argue about some aspect or another of this concept.

    It's all good, don't you think? Every time some new innovation comes along from someone, it's a step forward even if it involves tripping over a log every now and then. Every time someone else figures out how to get rid of the log, that's another step forward.

    Isn't that a good thing all around?
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    It is true..Lexus takes innovations from Mercedes and Volvo and others...They work with them to make them better and more reliable BEFORE they put them in their car....

    Oh really? I'm not sure I have ever seen a study that suggests that Lexus ESC is better or more reliable than Mercedes ESC, or that Lexus ABS is better than Mercedes ABS. What I do know, is that Lexus offers fewer safety features than MB and that MB builds its cars to withstand not only crash tests, but also the infinite number of untested, realworld accidents. MB even has its own accident investigation team (so does Volvo) that analyzes real world accidents to make their cars safer.

    What is the value of a safety feature if you don't know for certain that it will work when you need it...Mercedes rushes their innovations into production, Lexus perfects them first...I like the Lexus approach..You will say you like the Mercedes approach...Different strokes.

    So how did Lexus perfect the ESC system that MB introduced 4 years before Lexus? How did Lexus perfect the side airbag that Volvo introduced 3 years before Lexus? How did Lexus perfect the head protection airbag system that BMW introduced 2 years before Lexus? Lucky for me, BMW's pioneering head protection system didn't have any problems working properly when my '98 528i was broadsided by a drunk in a speeding mustang.

    In the end, Lexus takes a reactive approach to safety whereas MB/Volvo/BMW takes a proactive approach. If Lexus thinks its sales will dip because MB model X has a safety feature that Lexus model Y doesn't, it may or may not decide to introduce said feature several years later. If MB sees an opportunity to enhance the safety of its vehicles, and ultimately all vehicles, it will. This has been proved time and time again going back to the early 20th century.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    Offer some proof in the form of percent fatalities per crash..Last time I checked the LS430 gets the same crash ratings as any other Lux car. If the LS430 were less safe you can bet the press would jump all over it.

    Unfortunately, no such statistics exist. However, knowing that MB is always on the forefront of safety gives me more reason to believe that an MB vehicle will protect me in a real world crash than a slacker like Lexus with a non-existent reputation for safety. Pretend you had no knowledge of either the Lexus or MB badge, and only knew about company history. Would you feel safer in the sedan from company A, who not only has more safety features, but has introduced cutting edge safety advancements for over a century, or the sedan from company B, who has fewer safety features, hasn't introduced any features, and is consistently several years behind in adopting new technology? ... Yeah that's what I thought.

    Get over it already. Do you think anyone cares who built it first?? This is a real desperate attempt to slam Lexus..

    Well considering the fact that how much interest a company shows in autosafety is probably a good indication of how safe it engineers its cars, yes, I think everyone should care. You may think this is a desperate attempt, I would call it a revelation of truth, the truth that Lexus tries to hide.

    Lexus prices for less, because their COSTS are less. No one can deny the superiority of the TPS system. It's not Lexus' fault that the German marques can't match their efficiency. As for who is the better car, read the Car mags. I always see the LS430 either first or in the top three..Not bad for an "unsafe" car...

    The inside economics of Lexus pricing doesn't matter in the least. The only thing that matters is the bottom line. People can buy Lexus for less money than they can buy Mercedes for, thus more Lexus is sold. This is a simple principle of economics.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    More nonsense from the German fans in here..

    First of all if you've look at the demographics of High end Lux car buyers, you'll see we're Middle Executives in our late 40's-50's earning in excess of 175K per year...The young hotshot probably represents the minority buyer..I don't think MB specially designs their cars for juvenile deliquents who don't know how to drive. That's got to be one of the most absurd things I've heard.

    NO prestige does not sell cars solely. If that were the case Toyota wouldn't be the most profitable car company in the world, Rolls Royce would be. I don't know what planet you all live on, but the board of any company demands profits bottom line. I think DCX would trade some of that prestige for $12Billion in Toyota Revenues..

    As for the safety argument...You have NO real world data to back up your claims..Number patents is great, but the Lexus hasn't lost a SINGLE crash test rating to the Germans..It always earns top marks in any crash test I've read.

    Lexus isn't hiding anything, in fact they're laughing all the way to the bank.. You offer opinions, I offer facts. I've taken a nasty 35 MPH side impact in my LS400 and the car barely moved. I heard a faint thump..That's about it..

    If you did any research you'll see that you can't even get a LS430 base model anywhere. The typical car is the $62,700 model. The S430 I was thinking of buying was $78K. The LS beat the S430 in all the last few Car and Driver and Road and Track comparisons.

    We've been through this..Lexus sells more cars at a higher price point than Mercedes does. Go read the last few pages of posts..Here's a basic lesson in economics: If a producer sells a product for 15K more than their competitor how come they make less money on the same car than their competitor? Why is it that Lexus makes more money on each LS430 than Mercedes does on their S430? Here's another another fact from Econ 1a: The most efficient Producer is the most profitable producer....Gee, I think we know who wins the profit game.

    Following your logic, I shouldn't feel safer in an Airbus A340-600 than a 747 because they a) haven't been in the business long, b) Haven't introduced as many safety features as Boeing, c) They price it lower than the 747...Yet Airbus is wiping Boeing's nose in the dirt in the marketplace..Why? Basic economics. To this day, no one has proved that the Airbus is not as safe as the 747...The same logic applies to Lexus. I use this analogy because I've worked in Aircraft Related industries for over 30 yrs and hear the same sort of nonsense all the time..Boeing's attitude towards Airbus was strikingly similar to what MB was towards Lexus..Who's laughing now?

    SV

    You can argue this snob attitude all you want, but profits are the telling story. It's like I tell my kids, no one cares how smart you think you are, it's the grades that count..The attitude on this board is of the English style Country Club thumbing their noses at the young upstart.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Great points on Economics 101. Efficiency v Productivity. Ugh.... who would have thunked that ?
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    First of all if you've look at the demographics of High end Lux car buyers, you'll see we're Middle Executives in our late 40's-50's earning in excess of 175K per year...The young hotshot probably represents the minority buyer..I don't think MB specially designs their cars for juvenile deliquents who don't know how to drive. That's got to be one of the most absurd things I've heard.

    Well again, your point regarding the IIHS injury claim data is completely moot anyway because the cars are in different classes of measurement. But I’ll go ahead and humor your false assumption. You said yourself that MB has more prestige than Lexus. Who is going to be more concerned with prestige, a 70yr old grandmother or a 28yr .com yuppie? The fact of the matter is, no matter how much of a minority this type of buyer represents, it still influences the numbers.

    NO prestige does not sell cars solely. If that were the case Toyota wouldn't be the most profitable car company in the world, Rolls Royce would be. I don't know what planet you all live on, but the board of any company demands profits bottom line. I think DCX would trade some of that prestige for $12Billion in Toyota Revenues.

    I never said it did. What are you talking about?

    As for the safety argument...You have NO real world data to back up your claims..Number patents is great, but the Lexus hasn't lost a SINGLE crash test rating to the Germans..It always earns top marks in any crash test I've read.

    Yeah except for the following where Lexus lost to the Germans:

    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96031.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99006.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98022.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98022.htm
    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0129.htm

    Oh and lets not forget the countless Toyota vehicles that have performed poorly.

    Lexus isn't hiding anything, in fact they're laughing all the way to the bank.. You offer opinions, I offer facts. I've taken a nasty 35 MPH side impact in my LS400 and the car barely moved. I heard a faint thump..That's about it.

    You have offered absolutely no facts, mostly just side stepping and rambling on about profit margins. On the other-hand I have provided valid points which you have been unable to disprove. You want to talk facts? What about the fact that Lexus refuses to offer the most basic side impact airbag for rear seat passengers on its flagship sedan? What about the fact that it’s $65k SC430 luxury convertible doesn’t offer the rollover protection system that’s been available on the SL since 1989? What about the fact that Lexus is always LAST to market with new safety features relative to the European competition? What about the fact that Lexus is perhaps the least safety conscious high end brand as shown by their inability to innovate? What about those facts?

    If you did any research you'll see that you can't even get a LS430 base model anywhere. The typical car is the $62,700 model. The S430 I was thinking of buying was $78K. The LS beat the S430 in all the last few Car and Driver and Road and Track comparisons.

    Nor can you get a base S430 anywhere. Even if this were true, the loaded LS430 still costs less than the base S430… thank you for proving my point :) Oh and the funny part about that Car and Driver comparison you refer to is that the LS430 scored DEAD LAST for skid-pad, road-holding, braking distance, and other driving dynamics. It only won because it was the best value… but don’t assume best value means best overall.

    We've been through this..Lexus sells more cars at a higher price point than Mercedes does. Go read the last few pages of posts.
    BUZZZZZ. Wrong, every Lexus vehicle (except the IS300) sells for a significantly lower price point than comparable Mercedes vehicles, as I already proved. Looks like you need to do some more research.

    Here's a basic lesson in economics: If a producer sells a product for 15K more than their competitor how come they make less money on the same car than their competitor? Why is it that Lexus makes more money on each LS430 than Mercedes does on their S430? Here's another another fact from Econ 1a: The most efficient Producer is the most profitable producer....Gee, I think we know who wins the profit game.

    And profit margins matter why? You aren’t very good at trying to twist the facts. I never said MB made more money that Lexus and I could care less if they did. All I said, and proved to you, was that Lexus sells vehicles for less money than Mercedes and thus sells more vehicles.

    Following your logic, I shouldn't feel safer in an Airbus A340-600 than a 747 because they a) haven't been in the business long, b) Haven't introduced as many safety features as Boeing, c) They price it lower than the 747...Yet Airbus is wiping Boeing's nose in the dirt in the marketplace..Why? Basic economics. To this day, no one has proved that the Airbus is not as safe as the 747...The same logic applies to Lexus. I use this analogy because I've worked in Aircraft Related industries for over 30 yrs and hear the same sort of nonsense all the time..Boeing's attitude towards Airbus was strikingly similar to what MB was towards Lexus..Who's laughing now?

    Again, you resort to vague logic and economic theory to attempt to prove your point. What does the “Airbus wiping Boeing’s nose in the dirt in the marketplace” have to do with the safety of each respective aircraft? And for what its worth, aircraft safety designs are inherently similar, so the difference between an Airbus and a Boeing safety wise isn’t measurable by features or test results.

    Just admit it, when it comes to safety MB offers more features, offers new features earlier, and offers more comprehensive crash protection than does Lexus. I can admit that Lexus build a more reliable car, and I can also admit that Toyota/Lexus is on the forefront of hybrid tech. I can admit both of these things because they are obvious. The question is, how come Lexus fanboys can’t admit when their precious Lexus lags behind the automotive market in safety, hasn’t innovated a single safety feature, and refuses to provide basic safety features on its models?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Ok - you win. Only problem is MB comes in 31st out of 32 brands in Germany in relaibility and can't even get a poor rating in CR's figures. They get full black circle everytime on every car. Translation - abysmal. I'll take a very safe car and no.1 reliability rating over your sick statistics any day of the week.

    Your price issue is absurd. Lexus allows you to opt for the things MB forces down your throat. Opt for them all and you're in the low 70's. Try to keep price affordable and you are high 50's. No LS is built at the MSRP without any options so throwing up a mid 50's price is pure BS. But I thought choice was good not bad. I guess when it comes to options and pricing its bad but when it comes to derivatives of cars its great.

    By the way with MB's horrendous integration of electronics I hope all the safety iems work when someone needs them.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    BTW, did you change your moniker to tiag_m5 today to distance yourself from the incorrect claim that airbags were an MB innovation?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "Would you please provide a list of Toyota/Lexus innovations, in total, since 1990 that make them "at least as significant" to MB innovations?"

    Oh, so we should do this by number of innovations rather than their importance to the industry? OK, let's play it your way. Just visit the USPTO site and see how many patents have been issued to Toyota vs MB since 1990. Answer: Toyota 4906, MB 1998. (The search strings I used were "AN/(mercedes or daimler or benz) and ISD/1/1/1990->2/24/2005" and "AN/toyota and ISD/1/1/1990->2/24/2005". There is a limit on message length on this board, so I can't list all 4906, but you can get details on each at
    http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-adv.htm

    "First of all, you can't compare numbers for cars in different classes. Notice how the S class is rated as a "very large" car and the LS is a "large" car."

    In fact, larger size should help not hurt MB's S injury rates...as can be seen in the data, where the average "very large" car does better than the average "large" one.

    "For example, I think it would be fair to assume that the LS is more likely to be driven by older, more experienced drivers. The S on the other hand, has greater appeal to hotshot young males with money, who like to drive fast and recklessly."

    Don't you think that "hotshot young males...who like to drive fast and recklessly" are more likely to end up in a BMW, SL, CL, E55, SLK, CLK, etc, rather than an S?

    Your statement might be true if the average age of an S driver were 22 and the average for Lexus were 40, but I think you know better than that. You can't come up with hard numbers and neither can I. My guess is that average for both cars would be in the area of 45-58. IF it is higher for Lexus, do you realize that this would imply a greater number of people over, say 65, who may drive slower but also have slower reaction times and hence might be more accident-prone?
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