Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
it seems to me that the only way to praise the Lexus LS430 and the Lexus brand is to attack my own personal purchase. I've purchased German and Japanese vehicles and i can certainly see through the smoke and mirrors that is marketing. one thing that i have never been fooled by is the smoke and mirrors of Lexus. they have 4 and only 4 specific vehicles. how on this earth an automobile manufacturer could actually be compared to MB with such a minuscule car line is beyond me. Audi maybe...MB never.
as for the E class taxi cabs....they are still E classes aren't they. they are a true E class. so what's the problem. they could be "decked out" if the buyer wanted them that way. keep in mind they are not re badged in any way. because they are being used as taxi cabs in some way diminishes them form being a true Mercedes Benz. i don't think so. talk about reverse snobbery and desperation! oh by the way are "European taxi cabs" a brand of automobile?
the RX330 is a Toyota Highlander and vice versa. go across the street and save some money at the Toyota dealer....then you are a true "thinking man"? the breadth of the MB lineup whether it be the A class or the S class....guess what..they are still MB's....not re badged vehicles. if MB wanted to be like Lexus all they would have to do is re badge a Dodge Durango and they would have a larger suv in their lineup. well...MB doesn't do things that way. they have a brand new G class (designed from the ground up) that will be released this fall that will serve as their full sized suv. and you guessed it...it is a true MB...not re badged with a little wood here and there and the price jacked up. what is the Lexus full size suv?.....a Toyota Land Cruiser masquerading as an LX470.
can you say with 100% certainty that the Celsior is usually equipped to the levels that the LS430 is in the US? from what i've picked up on other boards it is usually sold in a more spartan form.
would the A8 i purchased be diminished as a luxury sports sedan if it had the VW logo?
not in practical terms but in business terms..yes it would. all you have to do is look at the struggle that VW is having selling the Phaeton. the Phaeton is a beautiful automobile but is left hanging mainly because of brand perception. as Lexus was once considered an oddball but persiveered...VW will have to do the same.
one difference in the Audi lineup of vehicles in comparison to VW is the use of high performance engines that
are not available in every VW. the similarities
of Phaeton and the A8 are the awd and the engine. after that they are completely different animals. Aluminum vs Steel. the Phaeton weighs about 1000lbs more. VW and Audi are similar in nature to Lexus and Toyota when it comes to sharing platforms. the main difference that i can see is that from Audi and VW to Lexus and Toyota is this.... the German brands reach much higher with their luxury flagship. one thing i received when i purchased my A8 was a truly unique vehicle. the only production sedan made completely of aluminum. might not mean anything to you but to me it makes the car special...unique.
hey for 55k the LS 430 is a fine car that is limited in what it offers. at this point in time one fine automobile does not
make a luxury brand...especially compared to MB. no comparison what so ever.
You are stretching and clawing at straws now. Seems you cannot see that a luxury brand seller of the *prestige* and status and cache (throw in as many adjectives as you'd like here) of MB has their goods being used as sherpas, diminishes the brand status. That's cool tho'....
For me, Lexus is a brand I like. They make cars and trucks that fit my lifestyle, at this particular time of my life. Maybe when I turn 50 or something, I may change my lifestyle and go with a Bentley or a Kia.... Who knows ??? Enjoy your A8, it is a testament to your hardwork and success. The A8 is a very fine automobile with a task that may be slightly different from the LS. But both are extremely good and capable cars.
thanks for the compliment.
for all the pro MB stuff i've posted
i should get a free trip to Germany!
i still don't see how the use of MB's as
taxi cabs lessens their brand. and do
taxi cab drivers only use MB's? are E classes
used as taxi cabs in Japan? if not what
is used? on a side note last i checked MB was the worlds largest truck manufacturer. does this diminish their image as a luxury automaker?
The new Chrysler 300 uses new parts and parts from the previous Mercedes-Benz E class.
"the RX 300 was created....get this guys off of the Corolla platform!!!". In that same post you declare the " the LX 470, GX, RX....all re badged and underpowered Toyota's. they are in and of themselves not a bad vehicles....but is this a "Luxury Brand"....rebadged Toyota's????"
In post 8056 (this reply) the RX is now the Highlander.
Even more oddly, you said the new Audi A8 is made "completely of aluminum". What kind of hyperbole is that? It's got an all aluminum space frame - but does it have an all aluminum engine, gas tank, jack, headlight lenses, windows, seats, CD player?
World class baloney and a trail of hyperbole.
There's a big difference between luxury brands and luxury things. Luxury brands work as intended by the seller, while luxury goods work as intended by the customer.
Remember, Rolex and Mercedes. One great jewelery and a so so watch. The other great jewelry and a so so car. Luxury brands, not luxury goods.
It is too inexpensive (you would say cheap)
it only really has 4 specific models,
It is related to Celsor,
it doesn't make stripped down Taxi's for volume,
It doesn't have 4 Wheel Drive
It is not made in Germany with all those fine engineers, Mechanical and Electrical....
YET...IT OUTSELLS MERCEDES IN THE LARGEST LUXURY CAR MARKET IN THE WORLD...How can this be?
The Lexus LS does get you from A to B...Which compared to some of it's competition is a huge plus in itself...since that is it' primary purpose.
It is Special in it's Smooth, Quiet ride, Ultra Luxury appointments, Trememdous sound system, comfort and Safety...All in a package that is well priced compared to it's competition and without question the most dependable Luxury machine on the road.
I am sure you meant to say all of that to be totally accurate in your discription of Lexus Mr. xkss but just assumed we would all know the rest of the story.
1) This whole thing about the value of "rebadging" cars makes no sense at all. The reason that Lexus can take a Toyota, and turn it into a class leader in comfort, ride, and reliability is in part because Toyota makes a great car to begin with. Whether or not you think it's "cool" or "sporting" enough, is purely subjective, and not relevant here. MB can't take a chrysler and turn it into a MB because most chrysler's are crap. Once a pig, always a pig, so don't start talking about how MB doesn't "rebadge" cars. Would it make a difference if Toyota made the LS430 and didn't call it a lexus? Would it no longer be a great luxury vehicle? It would still kick the S430's butt in all the comparison tests whether it was called a Lexus or Toyota.
2) Making 20 different cars (A, C, E, S, G, ML, CL, SL, SLK, Smart) doesn't make you the "best" luxury car maker. Nor does making the most expensive car in every segment either, which MB certainly does. Nor does taking a single platform/class and putting 10 different engines into it and marking up the price logarithmically. Jaguar has for years made beautiful and expensive vehicles, but I don't think they qualify as a "great" luxury car maker, and their cars aren't top-flight luxury vehicles- overpriced, unreliable, eccentric, cramped, etc. They get crushed in every comparison test published.
3) If you really believe that if your A8 or S430 would somehow be an objectively inferior car if it was a VW or Chrysler then you have been completely blinded by the marketing gurus at Audi and MB. You'd be paying a premium for what? Badges? Tradition? A policy of non-rebadging? What?
4) IMHO, the only reason that MB can still sell the S430 is precisely because of people like denaliimpa, who can't see a car for what it is beyond the badge on the hood. And there are plently of people like him, who would gladly pay an extra $15-20K for an, at best, competitive car compared to the LS430. It ain't faster, quieter, sportier, more luxurious, reliable, higher tech, etc than the LS430, but there are plenty of people who are more than happy to give their money away. Which is fine with me, but don't come back here and start telling intelligent people who can make objective decisions about how the S430 has more tradition and has thicker sheetmetal and that MB doesn't rebadge cars and therefore is a "better" luxury car maker and is superior to the LS430.
To me, what defines a great luxury car maker? A manufacturer (regardless of country of origin, tradition, years in the business, etc) who can make a luxurious, attractive, spacious, safe, w/all the "bells and whistles" and supremely reliable vehicle for a competitive price. You want to spend $15-20K more for a similar car by another manufacturer- no problem- but just admit you spent it on prestige, looks, tradition. Not on a "better" vehicle made by a "better" manufacturer.
As for value and reliability, I think the Lexus wins hands down. If the MB was as reliable and priced similarly, I would have gone for it.
The S430 was also missing some nice components that a car at that price should have: Xenon lights, wood steering wheel, blue tooth. I couldn't get over having a car at plus 70K that was a bit stripped down and I wasn't ready to jump to the S500 for the proper bells and whistles. But in the end I went for the LS based on quality and value and the ride is excellent.
Did you have a chance to test the LS ultra..with the settings of sport handling and power...
A little stiffer steering, less lean, Quicker out of the blocks...
If you didn't and you get a chance to give it a try I would love to hear your comments.
I'm not a german auto basher, or lexus aficionado. But my wife and I have owned several of these vehicles- '95 LS400, '97 M3, '00 CLK430, '01 CLK55, '01 M5, '01 A8L and now a GS400/RX330/Boxster S- and while I enjoyed the driving characteristics of the M's and Boxster, I'd be a moron to say that BMW and MB is somehow "superior" to Lexus. Each does things a bit differently and focuses on different buyers, and each does a fine job in their own way. But in terms of a pure "luxury" vehicle, I still think the LS430 is unmatched at it's real-world price.
55k compared to 70k
means a lower car payment.
no matter how well a car is
manufactured the label that is
placed on the hood of that car
will in most cases dictate how
well the car sells in the short
term at the very least.
if i can't see beyond the badge
on the hood why am i driving an
Audi instead of an MB? i buy cars
that i like. i don't live in a jdpowers
manufactured fear when it comes to
purchasing my vehicles.
and if you think for a second that
re badging vehicles doesn't limit and
diminish the Lexus brand then you are
only fooling yourself and being a
Lexus fanboy.
I will come out on top...Mine will be faster ...more reliable...and have more luxury features.
not good vehicles.
how does Lexus do it...i think i pointed
that out in several posts.
aren't most LS430's being discounted
about 7-8k now?
This kind of logic Just makes a guys head spin.
As far as your Audi is concerned...LS is faster the your A-8...and it costs less and it has as many or more luxury features. Ahhhhhhh..Maybe that is why it sells more Luxury cars in the US then Audi...My Head Has Stopped Spinning.
do you really feel that your rwd LS
is the equivalent of an awd car?
and...you feel that your Lexus
is better equipped? really?
so the US market is all that matters?
isn't that a little
egocentric and self serving.
Audi sedan. my argument and opinions
when discussing whether Lexus is the
equal of Mercedes Benz in not biased.
in my opinion yours is. still...
i apologize for using the words fanboy.
it was inappropriate and unnecessary.
have some advantages. in the
northeast it enables you use your
sedan all year round without
having to worry about weather.
Yet since these items have been on cars from MB and every other brand sold in the U.S. there has been no such reports of anyone ABS, ESP or Brake Assist or anything like these items not working as they should. ABS has been on every car under the sun for at least 10 years or more, yet nothing has ever been shown it failing.
Again, if you have proof of such a failure, I'd like to read about it, otherwise you're just speculating endlessly about much of nothing, its called hype.
M
The "problem" is that he gave the proof and as usual when it doesn't show Lexus in a good light it is glossed over and isn't important.
"None of you acknowledge that being first in innovation isn't enough to generate profits. Prestige does not equal profits as clearly shown in the MB case. You fail to see the point that no one cares WHO built the thing first.. This is the point you all miss repeatedly.
Very important word missing here, "you". More correctly you don't care about these things yet MB owners right here on these very boards like the fact that Mercedes was first with a lot of things, along with Volvo and other European cars that pioneered safety in modern cars. These things are part of their lure, like CR and JDP reports are a part of Lexus' twist. Its understandable that you won't care about the safety or prestige viewpoints because they don't apply to Lexus.
What you miss that nobody here or anyone else walks into a showroom caring what Toyota's profits are. That is absurd to even suggest that. Who cares what a companies profits are as long as they aren't in danger of leaving the market and the buyer with an unservicable car, a postion MB isn't even close to being in.
Don't no buyers care about profits of the car company they're buying from. They do care about reliability and reputation of a brand, especially a luxury brand. No you can debate which is more important to whom all day long, but people don't care squat about no profits.
M
Well we don't really "agree" on anything except the SL being a better car. The SL is a lot newer than the SC430 also.
"So let us extrapolate. If the S430/500 are better cars than the LS430, regardless of their higher prices, would they not sell better COMBINED than a single engined Lexus LS430 ? But we all know the reverse is the case, right ? So, it must tell you something about the incredible car the LS430 is. That it can single-handedly BEAT all S-class cars COMBINED in units sold. The LS, whether you'd like to admit it or not, is the most popular, most DESIRED mainstream full-size luxury car money can buy. Its higher sales bears this point out. If the MBs were $20K, $30K better (as currently priced), they should clobber the LS in sales."
I'm sorry but this is bass-ackwards. It completely the 56K sticker of the LS and the 70K+ sticker of the cheapest S-Class. You have no idea what the most "desired" car in the class is, all you know is the best selling one. If price were equal, at least one Lexus fan I've seen would have bought the S, not the LS. You're ignoring price having an effect on sales like all the others here. You're trying to tie that in with whether or not the S-Class is worth the premium, which wasn't my argument.
BTW, I don't think the S-Class is 20-30K better than the LS430, not at all. Never stated that, someone else may have, but not me.
I have yet to understand what in the world does profit statements and other corporate matters that are matterless to a buyer factor into this. You mean to tell me that a LS is such a boring, insipid car to the point where you have to bring up profits about a car company to make a case for it? That really gets me excited, thinking about Toyotas profits, if I happen to like their new IS250350 model.
M
Who declared this to be fact or even true? The saving lives part is so far fetched and so far into the future to the point that it shouldn't even be argued here, yet. This is all guesswork. There should have been a big IMO at the end of this. Lexus has yet to even sell a single hyrbid vehicle and the Prius hasn't sold in enough numbers yet even make the smallest most minute difference any air quality anywhere at anytime. I'm surprised by all the guesswork here that you're trying to pass off as facts. Most unusual. The part you really don't want to acknowledge is that all the safety work done by MB, Volvo and others have saved lives now for over 30 years in some cases and most of this has been documented, unlike your hybrid theory.
M
You seem to be under the assumption that Mercedes is just can't do anything right and on this board, reading these posts its understandable. My first response to this would be that Mercedes pioneered these things during another era when even the JDP and CR survey/chart chasers would have been pleased with Mercedes' performance. My second response would be that these very technologies are not Mercedes' exclusives and haven't been since after the first year they were introduced. In other words they are proven technologies and to imply that such things like airbags and ABS won't because they're on a Mercedes is pure hype and not based on anything in reality. If you have proof of anything like that happening I'd like to read about it.
M
That's why this battle can never be won, nor can anyone be swayed to one side or the other. We in fact probably all agree on the objective factors, we just disagree on their relative importance."
Exactly! This is what what I was trying to say at the outset of this latest melee which has gone on for about 3 weeks now, much longer than any fallout from anything I've ever stated.
M
I for one hate rebadging of cars, but in Lexus' defense the LS430 or whatever it is called in Japan is a luxury car by "specification" no matter which baged it is sold under.
If the badge determined the stauts then the VW Phaeton wouldn't be a luxury car either, and we all know it is. Pure luxury car, period.
Rebadging to me is what GM is forcing upon Saab with the 9-7x and 9-2x models, see other forums for specifics. Rebadging whether Lexus fans like it or not is the Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus LX470, other than a few equipment changes they are the same truck. Lexus does at the very least attempt to seperate the GX and ES from their 4Runner and Camry bases. To buy a LX470 is pure badge stuff at work, just as bad any anyone buying a Mercedes because of its badge.
Saying a A8 is a rebadge Phaeton shows who reads the specs and who doesn't. They don't even share same construction techniques or frame, hardly a "rebadge".
M
Thus, if a car gets a ton of black dots the seed is planted in the mind—maybe the car's safety features—the airbags—will fail. Dum, da dum dum. It may have little to do with reality but it is probably in the mind of many buyers and I am sure it is what people around here are alluding to.
Risk management is a big part of today's mentality and black dots are synonymous with risk.
My point about safety on the LS is that the tests show it to be marginally worse in rear end crashes. It hardly qualifies the LS as an unsafe or shoddily built car as some have said here. The testers admit these rear end impacts rarely result in serious injury. Basically for the typical crash (front, side) the LS performs as well as everyone else.
You are correct to say Lexus owners value JDP, CR more than prestige. I don't think it's fair to say we don't value safety. The LS performance is comparable, but not superior. My favorite Jaguar (The XJ8) doesn't have many of the features that MB does, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.
I agree with you on the profit part. What I meant to say the strength of Lexus is shown in the profit side of things. You can't argue with success. I wasn't trying to argue that the majority of buyers look up balance sheets. My point was that buyers also don't care who is first to market with various safety measures. I don't even know who invented ABS (MB?) nor do I care. Who was first to market isn't going to influence my decision.
The reason I almost got the S430 was the sleek profile of the car. Also, after driving a LS for 13 years, I thought it might be worth the change. Like many though, I didn't think the 13K premium was justified. Had it been 2-4K then I would have done it. The clincher was the current quality issues. Once they've cleared that up, I probably will get one, should Lexus continue with these insipid designs. Lexus had it right with the original LS and SC...Why did they change it?!
I remember in the late eighties, MB used to dominate the JDP surveys. To fall to 31 is quite shocking for a celebrated brand like Mercedes. Was it cost cutting that led to this?
Sitting in all of these cars (LS, S Class, 7 Series) I feel that they aren't designed to the same specs that their predecessors were. I still see shining examples of original LS400's, 80's S Classes and BMW's all over the place. Somehow with all these electronic gimmicks I don't think these cars will fare as well. Normally I don't trade my cars frequently, but I feel really uneasy about owning a car outside the warranty perioid with such gadgetry. I think the marques are focusing too much on the electronics end at the cost of long term reliability.
SV
My point about things like ABS is that a lot (not all or majority) fans of the Benz marque know these things about their innovations because it is part of MB's heritage. This is part of their lure, just as Lexus will do the same in the history books if and when this hybrid things takes off and they're leading the way. See? The thing I disagreed with you on was "who cares" attitude about such things as who invented/pioneered what, yet German car fans are supposed to care about Toyotas profits and JDP and CR reports instead or the fact that they came up with hybrid tech first.
The two views don't mix. Never have, never will.
M
But on safety I think most people really don't care, when they are shopping for a car, who was FIRST with a particular safety feature. They do and should care about WHAT CAR IS THE SAFEST NOW.
If a buyer really cares about safety foremost and is trying to decide between an S and an LS, the objective data available are:
1. IIHS insurance injury loss rankings look better for the LS
2. IIHS has not crash tested the S, but in comparing the E and GS, the E does better on rear impacts
3. The LS has rear side curtain airbags but lack rear side door-mounted airbags
4. CR shows S-class brakes to be less reliable than LS brakes (the S looks average, the LS looks very good/excellent in brake reliability)
The final point is where reliability may indeed impact safety. Does the buyer want the extra rear airbags, or does he want brakes that are more reliable?
IMHO looking at all the available objective data, one can't say that the S is safer than the LS. It looks about the same.
Again I don't see why it should matter to the buyer that MB invented ABS or whatever, as long as the LS has it too.
Do you still use Visicalc because it was the first spreadsheet? Or do you instead use the best spreadsheet for the purpose?
Do you pick a brand of cellphone based on who was FIRST with various innovations? Or do you pick based on who offers the best cellphone NOW, based on whatever criteria are important to you?
Five years from now, if I'm in the market for my second hybrid vehicle and MB makes what in my view is the best for my needs, I'll buy it. I won't care that they weren't first with the innovation.
Can we talk about something else?