High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · March 2005

"I'll say it for the last time because you just don't get it. The statement was that the negative headlines - financial, quality, reliability etc etc are inescapable to any business savy person and many lux car buyers are exactly that. When those people read about the quality problems and then the financial problems that are following it they just file it away in their head.

And saying it over and over doesn't make is so for everyone either. You're trying to tie in negative press about reliability to financial status and they aren't the same thing. People do care about the former, but are basically clueless about the latter. Every luxury car buyer isn't on the same page as you are. I see no evidence of buyers caring one hoot about a company's financial status. Reliability of the car or brand they're buying of course they care, but what the company made last quarter, heck no. This is your opinion and it isn't based on anything but your personal view and/or circle of Lexus owning friends. There is no evidence to support any of this. You say that there won't be any show of this on the buyers boards then where does it show up then, besides in your mind?

Now tell me what percentage of buyers care about earnings of car company or what their CEO has done in the last 6 months? Unless you have something concrete on this thinking this is all highly IYO.

M

merc1 · March 2005

There is an article in the April issue of Automobile that you're just going to love. It is titled "Losing the Luster" and it shows a cracked MB star. It basically says what you've been saying all along and what I've been saying too. While quality is down, perception to the general public is still sky-high for Mercedes, especially in Germany which is where most of this article concentrates. This is why I've said since 2001 when you first started with your "fall from the top" theory about Mercedes, that it isn't going to happen as quick as you said it would and it hasn't, at least not yet. Am I saying it couldn't happen? Of course not. Will it happen? Yep, if they don't correct their issues before perception catches up with reality. The article also goes on about how good the Germans are at marketing their cars and that obviously reliability isn't everything because if it were "the world would drive Toyotas", another point I made in the beginning. I have never said that their reliability problems are not important or that they didn't have one, I take issue with the doom and gloom cheering that is posted here because it is silly. Like come March 5th the end will be here.

M

merc1 · March 2005

Since we've resorted to digging up owners to add hype to the board. There is a BMW owner on the LS board who took the LS430 out for a spin and brought it back in 10 mins because it was too lame in the driving department. Very interesting. Now they're telling him to try the "Euro" model like it will come anywhere near driving like a BMW. Wishful thinking at best.

M

iancar · March 2005

Back into 80s and 90s, people just wanted to get a ride in a MB because it was the class leader for quality ride, luxury, status, and reliability. For a generation, my family and i loved the brand for years and kept getting another 1. Wait till i got my S430 (2002), i finally realized the importance for the quality control and reliability. First the oil gauage were crying for hungry all the time. have it in dealer for 4 times, it just did not want to be fixed. After that, i had to count miles in order to make sure i will not sit in the city jungle without gas. Even worse, warning lights were flashing all the time. When i got to the dealer, the reply was just disappointing: they didnt bother to check to c if there were some problems in the car. They just put u in a waiting list (longer than 3 months) and let u drove around with warning lights on. The electronic qualities are also nightmares and some buttons feel losely fitted 2. The only thing i am happy about is the high resell value of the car?! I dunno who is going to buy my car, with over $4000+ fixing bill to pay within the first 3 years, but I know he should be blind and stupid.

sv7887 · March 2005

Merc,
Read post 6988 in the LS forum. It's from a 7 series convert. If you looked at my posts in the same forum, I openly said the dynamics of the LS will be lacking to a 5 Series owner. Most magazines deem the LS has "unexciting, yet competent." It's not going to drive like a barge, but not like a sports car either.

Our responses are linked to the base model. I would never buy a base LS. Most of the touted features are missing on the car. You maybe able to get "closer" to the BMW experience by getting the Euro or Air Suspension and 18" tires..My last LS was an Euro Suspension model, it definitely rode stiffer. (It's part of the reason I got rid of it..Too harsh for me)

Also what's the point of a Lexus without Mark Levinson and the Navigation System? It's like you say, it's their chief marketing tool. Even some of the more interesting things are missing like Backup Camera, Bluetooth, and Voice activated controls. (Note these are all gimmicks, but they are interesting ones). We all just wanted our BMW friend to get the same experience we all did. As I said in the previous post, every person has their different tastes. I can respect that..

In the Lexus LS forum, I've posted a few pictures of all the LS cars I've owned over the years. Which do you all think is the best? I still think the '92 was the best, but my wife thinks the '05 is better.

Jaguar on the bottom again?! I thought they were improving!! Argh, I was seriously thinking about buying one too..

SV

hpowders · March 2005

Yes but that BMW owner was impressed with the GS 430 which really came close to a BMW experience. Only this BMW owner wasn't born yesterday and he will have nothing to do with a 16% spread between invoice and MSRP, the latter probably being the selling price for the next few months.($8000 price differential).
Regards,
hpowders

merc1 · March 2005

"In the Lexus LS forum, I've posted a few pictures of all the LS cars I've owned over the years. Which do you all think is the best? I still think the '92 was the best, but my wife thinks the '05 is better."

Well your 1992 LS400 came in just one year short of the only LS I ever even remotely liked, the 1993-1994 model. Why you ask? Well 1993 was the year the car got standard 16 inch wheels and painted valances at the bottom, it really tied the car to the road better than 1990-1992 models. Thats styling wise. I'm sure your 2005 model is the best one of the lot engineering wise because after all it has 15 years of progress over than original 1990-1994 model and the 1995-2000 model was just completely forgettable to me, the blandest luxury car ever devised imo.

I'm afraid I've never been a fan of any LS. The only Lexus I really liked was the original SC400/300 Coupe. Now that was a Lexus I wouldn't have had a problem owning back in the day. One of my best friends has a 1995 SC300. This new IS is also promising, at least so far.

M

merc1 · March 2005

I knew you would like the GS better than the LS, my post about that was a just shot fired at the previous hype about owners and what not.

What markup on the GS are you talking about? How do you know this?

M

designman · March 2005

Although some of the Lexus owners around here use financial perspective to validate their purchases, this is not their impetus for buying. It's the luxury/reliability/bargain aspect that appeals to them, plain and simple.

You focus on marketing and financials because it is what you do for a living, just as I often focus on design for the same reason. But in the end we buy for more relevant and well-rounded reasons. I don't believe for one minute that financial-savvy people buy a car for any other reason than how the PRODUCT/SERVICE/BRAND appeals to them. Ditto for everyone else. You may say that the financial strength of Toyota/Lexus figures into your buying decision, you parse it a certain way and I believe you, but it is FAR from the top reason for owning what you choose to own.

You have admitted an affinity for the S, luxury and torque. However, I have to believe an S600 or S55 at twice the price of an LS short-circuits your personal sense of value. With the LS you believe you are getting more for less whether it is because of reliability, amenities or otherwise. The product and price hit your personal sweet spotand most of this has nothing to do with the corporation. You may hobnob with other Lexus owners with whom you share common interests and philosophies, but lets remember, the financial world is rife with people who traipse around in varieties of MBs, Porsches and Ferraris, cars that completely subvert the traditional concept of the savvy or rational purchase.

BTW, I don't know how tall you are but if you are going to test the GS keep an eye out for headroom. My head hits the roof and I am only 6' 0". I think this alone will rule it out for many. Can't believe how small the car is. It looked bigger to me in the photos.

merc1 · March 2005

Another way of putting it I guess.

M

designman · March 2005

Yep, I'm a member of the Circular Talk Society. I admit it ;-)

pat · March 2005

LOL!

There are others here being tapped for membership as we speak.

hpowders · March 2005

Well, I am 6'2" and the roof didn't bother me at all. People sit differently-some sit up straight and others (like me, I guess) slouch.
Everyone has to try it for themselves.

ljflx · March 2005

You miss my point. I'm saying negative press influences people, be it quality, financial or reliability and worst of all the combo of all three. It's that simple. Does it get them to change altogether - of course not. But does it get some percentage to change and a greater percentage to at least think about changing - of course it does. We don't buy blind - otherwise we are really a bunch of dodo birds. The other brands you list are as niche as it gets, some to the extreme, so they will never fit the profile I am talking about. I'm talking mass mfrs. here. Many of those I know are MB owners or former MB owners and there isn't one among them who hasn't noticed all the bad press, initialy quality and now inevitably the financial woes that are coming with it. Many have had the experience first hand so reading that makes them know its widespread and not isolated. Frankly if it wasnt for Lexus I wonder what I'd be driving. Absolutely I'd want the S-class, but would I trust it - no. The 7 has no appeal to me whatsover, nor does the Jag. The A8 would probably be my choice after the S-class but the sample on that car is so low and I know how often my ex-boss's car was in the shop too. The only point I make on financials is that any good businessman knows the well capitalized company can do what it pleases. That is hardly a reason to buy and I never said that in the first place.

Quite often the highly successful giant isn't a lux goods maker. But in this case it is and that has added weight here for certain people - particularly well versed financial people.

But think about what you guys are saying. Terrible press for one brand and great press for another, individually or worse still combined, won't alter anything!! You are kidding, I hope.

merc1 · March 2005

Nobody is saying that bad press doesn't alter anything at all, though "bad press" in general is not exactly what you claimed at first. Its the financial status and earnings that you started out with, saying that they made a difference to most luxury car buyers. What I'm saying is that you have no way of knowing how many people the press affects nor do you know how even most buyers feel about such things as financial status of a car company. You act as though ever Mercedes buyer cares about these things just because your circle of Lexus owning friends all switched and gush over WSJ articles about MB's troubles. You're trying to pass this off as fact and there is nothing to support it. I had made such a claim about MB buyers you'd be asking me for a chart or graph of some sort to prove it.

Buyers don't walk into a showroom caring about a car company's financial status. They do care about the car's reliablity and quality, which is why I said that surveys make difference.

Most buyers don't care about any of this financial babble because if they did every car company that has ever been in trouble from Nissan a few years ago to MB, VW and other now...would have never been able to sell more cars. Product drives the market first followed by the precious surveys for some people and even that is open to speculation as to what percentage. A company's earnings statement doesn't mean anything to most buyers of any brand of car.

M

ljflx · March 2005

Time to end this discussion as futile.

syswei · March 2005

What do people here think of the new IS? Coupled with the GS I think Lexus is finally making a little progress in the exterior styling department. Maybe neither is the prettiest in the world, but imho both are improvements over the outgoing models.

http://motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_05gen_lexus/index.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?intAsvPageCurrent=4&section_id=31&article_id=9254

flyfisher1 · March 2005

It looks like another japanese car to me. Nothing original.

michael_mattox · March 2005

Have you had a chance to review the new consumer reports...It is amazing at the top of almost every catagory is Toyota or Lexus or Scion...No wonder the company is turning a $20 Billion Profit.

Most Satisfying

1) Top 2 spots in Small Cars
2) Family/Large Sedan...#1 Avalon
3) Upscale Lux....LS430...no mercedes,bmw,audy VW in sight.
4) Coupes/conv. #1 Lexus #2 Mercedes SL..As expected.
5)Minivan...#1
6) Midsized Suv. #1
7) Large suv. #1 and #2
8) Pickups...#1

MOST RELIABLE:

1)Small cars...#s 1,2,3
2)hybrids...#1
3)Sport/Conv. #s1,2
4) Sedans #s 1,2,3
5) Pickup Trucks #1

Best Used Cars

Toyota and Lexus...Always there...German Cars almost NEVER there.

designman · March 2005

It's quite normal looking which is an accomplishment these days. Sure beats the fruit-cake look. Yes, there is a distinct Japanese style that seems to come with every Tom, Dick and Harry Japanese vehicle. However I find it to be very well-proportioned and acceptable with exception of the slabby, shapeless sides. Very nice Lexus interior as usual. Whats with the transmission? Is that a real automatic with slushbox or true sequential gearbox without torque converter? I havent poked around for info yet.

If the anatomy is right the IS will give the 3-series fits. On pure looks it blows the 3 away IMO, and I know people are drooling for those bigger engines. Hopefully this will light a fire under BMWs flaky butt.

ljflx · March 2005

Designman - I didn't get to drive the GS as it was out and two others were waiting. But I did sit in a showroom car and understand your point about entry. I do think it's a great looking car but I was in a rush and couldn't really checkout the space in rear etc.

Lexus has definitely nailed the IS. One of the few times the actual car is better looking than the proto-type.

oac · March 2005

"Whats with the transmission? Is that a real automatic with slushbox or true sequential gearbox without torque converter?"

According to the news release at the Geneva show, the IS250 comes with a 6MT, with an optional 6-speed slushbox with steering wheel mounted paddle shifters (neat stuff). Question remains on what the setup will be for the NA market ! That will be unveiled at the NYAS March 23rd.

merc1 · March 2005

This new IS does have potential, though there are 3-Series BMW cues all over it. On the Future Modles board there is a post of them side by side, the similarities are not a mistake. I guess Lexus sees imulation as a must when targeting a car to beat. While controversial this strategy has worked before.

M

blckislandguy · March 2005

There is an interesting interview with DC's Jurgen Schrempp in today's Financial Times. The tone of the article indicates that he doesn't really respond to market forces as much as focus on what would be good for Germany. While the DC market value is down 50% since the Chrysler "merger" and shareholders have been hurt, he has saved German pride, jobs and made DC "invulnerable to takeover". With this miserable market performance, how has he "survived in the face of disasters that would have claimed the jobs of whole management teams at any large US or British listed company?" Their answer is simple: his board of directors is made up of German union reps and large German banks who feel he is committed to German jobs. As a side note, two of the largest non-German shareholders are "secretive investment groups from Kuwait and Dubai".

oac · March 2005

This is not the IS forum, but I just gotta say this:

Here we go again... Another claim of Lexus copying a German car ....

For the past years, Lexus put forward 3 future design concepts - LF-A, LF-C and LF-X. What concepts did MB or BMW put forward ? None. The 2006 GS made its rounds all of last year. No German copy was insinuated. Now comes the new sleek and very good looking IS, and the German fans cannot give Lexus due props, instead its to start dissing Lexus all over again, as copying BMW. The IS is a baby-GS in style, yet different, but certainly NO resemblance to any BMW. If you, Merc1, can find a BMW cue in the new IS, kindly share it with us. I don't see any. Of course, I could have my blinders on.

merc1 · March 2005

"If you, Merc1, can find a BMW cue in the new IS, kindly share it with us. I don't see any. Of course, I could have my blinders on."

I think you just might. You are kidding about German car fans not giving Lexus their props right considering the last few pages of posts here right?

Anyway it really wasn't a diss against Lexus as you put it. I just said they look similar, now if you consider that outright copying then thats your view, I didn't use the word copy because I don't think it fits here. Whether you'll ever accept it or not Lexus does have a habit of making some of their cars look like the car they think is the number one target. I find the IS to be way more attractive than the GS actually. The GS looks like some sort of whale to me. The GS is badly proportioned and way to thick in the rear/side treatment to be good looking, imo.

What difference does it make whether or not BMW did put out a concept vehicle or not? At least BMW, when they do release a concept bring something to market that looks like the concept. Lexus has yet to do anything even close to their concepts and the new IS surely isn't nearly as ugly as that LF-C or whatever that concept was at Detroit last year. Not the sports car concept, but the sedan one they did last year too, the GS didn't come close to looking as good as that sedan concept, lf-a/s/e/de whatever it was. BMW did too put out a concept for the X3, and guess what the production X3 looked just like the concept, unlike Lexus' goofy concepts which don't translate into anything production.

Lexus in particular seems clueless about what concept cars are supposed to do, preview a product. Even Acuras concepts for the RL and TL are closer than Lexus' to their production RL and TL.

Also, Mercedes and BMW usually only put out concepts for a totally new vehicle, not an update of an existing vehicle. Unlike Lexus, Mercedes in particular doesn't need concepts to debut a new styling direction, and neither does BMW (regardless of whether you like their new look or not). Mercedes has put out the GST (R-Class) and Vison B (B-Class). BMW put out concept for the all new 6-Series (Z9) and the X3 before launch also so you're incorrect about them not having put out any concepts. There is no need for a concept to preview the new S-Class or 3-Series because they are established cars in their respective markets. Most carmakers use concepts to introduce the public to a totally new product or to drum up interest for a lackluster one already on the market. Hence Lexus' concepts for their GS and IS models, bet you won't see a concept for the next LS.

BTW, I happen to like what I've seen of the new IS so far, that doesn't mean it is original looking, imo of course. I'm not the only one that has said this about the IS.

M

michael_mattox · March 2005

Merc:

Here is what you said...

" though there are 3-Series BMW cues all over it."

Oac ask you what those Styling Cues were....As usual you did not answer the question and used a lot of words not answering it.

merc1 · March 2005

Once again, you only read and quoted the parts you wanted to. I clearly stated in my first post that there is a post of the two cars side by side in the Future Vehicles forum thread about the IS, if he wanted to see what I was talking about. It seems you prefer to join a conversation mid-stream, minus reading key parts of my posts, and then make ridiculous rebuttals.

Please let us not get into who gives answers because I've asked for answers from you for at least a year on your claims and have yet to get a single one.

M

footie · March 2005

"What difference does it make whether or not BMW did put out a concept vehicle or not?"

Maybe if BMW had put out a concept of the butt-ugly styling direction their customers would have told them to go back to the drawing board before they tossed their cookies.

So the 'difference' is rejection by much of the trade press and their installed base of customers.

I feel that Lexus puts out a concept, gets a lot of feedback from their customers and then puts out a vehicle that represents their input.

I think we all know that the German car companies actually asking their customers what they want and like is a very strange concept for them. "Vee vill tell de custover vat dey neet".

It's costing them market share here and I predict will do so in Europe.

Mercedes on the other hand copied the Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable styling cues as I pointed out over a year ago when they brought out the new E. So they took advantage of a very popular rental and fleet vehicle line here in the U.S. to base their taxis on.

Of course, the 32% decline in YTD sales of the E so early into its life indicate that a new 'concept' might be in order.

michael_mattox · March 2005

Merc.

I saw him speak to the side by side and he stated he saw nothing similar in the two cars...

Now you have spent even more words NOT answering his question ...WHAT ARE ALL THOSE STYLING CLUES YOU ARE REFERRING TO.

According to you there are LOTS of them.

vcheng · March 2005

Lexus has copied the following:

4 wheels and tires, four doors with windows, front AND back windscreens, the steering wheel, an internal combustion reciprocating engine, a transmission with gears........

See, the list goes on and on!

If Lexus had ANY innovation at all, they would stop copying all these clever features first invented by other companies.

merc1 · March 2005

Gee, talk about pointless.

If you read where Oac didn't see any similarities why are you asking me what they are, when you a)obviously don't agree either and b)wouldn't be able to follow what I said in the first place.

What I said was IMO, which of course is just that, my opinion. If you don't agree then move on.

M

michael_mattox · March 2005

Merc:

You were the one who brought up the issue...Oac asked what the Styling Clues clues were that you thought were similar ....I would also like to know, who knows I and maybe even OAC might agree with you...You said there were many now you can't seem to name one...Hmmmmm

merc1 · March 2005

"You said there were many...and now you can't name one...Typical."

Are we talking about styling here or the many claims you've made about Toyota taking MB and others innovations through the years and perfecting them. For that claim which is over a year old (from you) there has yet to be a single answer yet. When are you going to answer that?
When you can provide proof of such a claim I'll give you exact details of what BMW styling cues I see on the new IS. In short when you live up to your own standard of giving answers for claims then........

"I am asking what you think was copied, Who knows maybe I will agree, maybe oac will agree..."

Futhermore I seriously doubt you'd agree with anything you deem negative about Lexus because you don't seem to be able to follow a point about anything Lexus unless it is favorable and thus it is usually a waste of time even discussing anything with you. Also, I didn't use the word copy anywhere, that is your words not mine. Now keep posting asking for answers to something that really wasn't that big of a deal to start with, but I'm done with it and should have been a few posts ago.

M

oac · March 2005

"Lexus has copied the following:

4 wheels and tires, four doors with windows, front AND back windscreens, the steering wheel, an internal combustion reciprocating engine, a transmission with gears........ "

Hilarious ! Thx for bringing some levity to this. Which would mean that copying is an age-old tradition from the days of Henry Ford !!!! LOL !

oac · March 2005

"Lexus in particular seems clueless about what concept cars are supposed to do, preview a product."

And why should production be the concept ? If concept = production, then why put out a concept ? I work in a firm that puts out product prototypes. Trust me, the final product is often much different from the prototype. That is what marketing input and meeting market demand is all about....

"Also, Mercedes and BMW usually only put out concepts for a totally new vehicle, not an update of an existing vehicle. Unlike Lexus, Mercedes in particular doesn't need concepts to debut a new styling direction, and neither does BMW (regardless of whether you like their new look or not)..."

Read footie's response to this. Which goes like this: Germany doesn't think it owes its customers a right to decide what the style of their cars should be. Lexus, OTOH, takes the exact opposite route.

"BTW, I happen to like what I've seen of the new IS so far, that doesn't mean it is original looking, imo of course..."

Sigh ! Oh well....

oac · March 2005

Michael:

You are correct, Merc1 didn't answer the question. But that is OK. The answer to my original question seems obvious enough....

gshocksv · March 2005

Car and Driver has a long term Jaguar and other publications show improvment in Jaguar's quality control. I have a 2002 Jag S-Type without any major problem so far.

The XJ series sure look very nice.

merc1 · March 2005

"And why should production be the concept ? I work in a firm that puts out prototypes. Trust me, the final product is often much different from the prototype. That is what marketing input and meeting market demand is all about....

Here is the problem. It seems that all Lexus types like to equate the car business with other type of business and they aren't always the same. Carmakers use concept cars to gauge public reaction, very true. They also use them preview a new product and I know you know this, but for the sake of covering for Lexus' lame concept cars you have to spin it using a business angle. I don't care about what other businesses do. In the car business most car makers try to come as close to the concept as possible for their production vehicle. Don't think this is true? There are many examples of concepts coming to market looking more or less like their concept versions: Dodge Viper, Porsche Boxster, Mercedes GST, BMW Z9 (6-Series), BMW X3, Pontiac G6 and others. You mean to tell me that the concept Jaguar just made the auto show rounds with, the Advanced Lightweight Concept the precursor to the next XK8 is going to change wildly from concept to production. If you really beleive this about concept cars then you don't know the purpose of having a concept car in the first place. Its to get you ready for the new look or a new model. Why would they turn around and change this if the public reacts favorably to the concept? Unless you're telling me that Lexus customer hated their concepts so they changed it to produce the ugly new GS?

The Lexus IS looks nothing like that small 2-door concept they showed last year and like I said the new GS doesn't look anything like the sedan concept that all of you all were confused about last year. First it was the new GS and then it was the new IS, yet it turned out to be neither, now comes the excuse about what other industries do.

If I remember right the "reaction" to Lexus' sedan concept last year, the LF-X whatever it was, was very favorable right? So if Lexus listens so much why did the GS turn out looking like a whale? Guess Lexus went deaf after Detroit 2004.

"Read footie's response to this. Which goes like this: Germany doesn't think it owes its customers a right to decide what the style of their cars should be. Lexus, OTOH, takes the exact opposite route"

Are you serious? Lexus gives their customers a say in how their cars look? Is that why the current LS model has spent its entire life looking like a previous S-Class Mercedes? I'm sure all you LS430 owners wanted something more exciting than a 1992 Mercedes design. This is nonesense of the highest order and again an excuse to cover up the fact Lexus is basically clueless about styling in general and concept cars. The only concept that they have shown that will probably make it to market looking anything like the concept is their last one, the sports car shown at Detroit this year.

I remember it like it was yesterday all you Lexus folk got so excited about that supposed GS concept only to be let down by the GS when it finally showed up to be a whale of a car with none of the concept's sleek and airy appearance. Long time Lexus advocates on the other boards were even disgusted. Is this the example of Lexus letting their customers decide what their cars look like? Complete nonesense and reaching at best.

M

oac · March 2005

Now let's talk about styling. That, oh so subjective of all topics.... Haven't been through this before ? I bet. But I am happy to oblige you here.

Contrary to your negative views of the 2006 GS, a greater majority of those who have actually seen this car in person liked it much better than the pics showed. The new GS is better than any of the Bangled BMWs out there today. No contest there. MBs and Audis are always pretty sharp, style-wise, I give you that. But I have repeatedly told you that MB styling only got better in the 90s. The older MBs are stodgy, slab-sided, but highly functional, rock-solid build and of excellent overall quality. Its only in the '90s MB began the styling direction with their bug-eyed E-series. So, let's give Lexus its due props... The company is only 15 years in the Luxury car/truck business, unlike BMW and MB's long heritage of producing crappy-looking, but highly efficient automobiles until much recently.

I guess, the long-and-short of my post here is simply this: Lexus styling will evolve over time, and they'll only get better at it. The LF concepts (A, C, S, X) are all in the right direction. Watch Lexus take off by MY2007 with the launch of the re-designed LS. This will re-launch Lexus globally at a time of MBs greatest weakness and vulnerability. Trust me, you don't want to be in MB's shoes with a new look Lexus company, propped up with $20B of Toyota profits going against a weakend and highly vulnerable MB. The battle promises to be a lotta fun from here. Just watch and learn something about the business of car making....

merc1 · March 2005

Contrary to your negative views of the 2006 GS, a greater majority of those who have actually seen this car in person liked it much better than the pics showed."

But did you? What does the majority have to do with anything? Lexus buyers will adore anything Lexus makes regardless of how it looks, the LS, ES, RX prove that. You seem to imply that I haven't seen the car in person. I saw it over a year ago and again this year and now on the road, and its and ugly whale of a car, imo.

"The new GS is better than any of the Bangled BMWs out there today. No contest there. MBs and Audis are always pretty sharp, style-wise, I give you that. But I have repeatedly told you that MB styling only got better in the 90s. The older MBs are stodgy, slab-sided, but highly functional, rock-solid build and of excellent overall quality. Its only in the '90s MB began the styling direction with their bug-eyed E-series. So, let's give Lexus its due props... The company is only 15 years in the Luxury car/truck business, unlike BMW and MB's long heritage of producing crappy-looking, but highly efficient automobiles until much recently.

All highly IYO because while I won't pretend that MBs always looked as good as they do now, but they were far from crappy looking. Going by how 80s Toyotas used to look and that first ES250 Lexus' cars would have looked even worse than those slab-sided Benzes. I find nothing wrong with the looks of the 1981-1991 S-Class or the SEC coupe from the same years, timeless to me. The 1986-1995 E-Class also had a timeless Mercedes look, especially the 300CE/E320 Coupe from those years (1988-1995). Hardly "crappy" looking.

Toyota on the other hand has long been a the very bottom on the styling scale. Stylewise Lexus hasn't earned any "props" with me since the original SC300/400 and until I see this new IS in person...

Yes I'm one of the few that like the new 5-Series, but I still can't stand the 7-Series. My problem with the 5-Series isn't styling so I don't think the GS looks better in that regard.

Styling it seem as everyhing else reverts back to Lexus and Toyotas profits and how they're going to take over the world. Time for a new line as that one is past tired. All the money in the world doesn't always mean the best products, maybe from a reliability standpoint, but not even Toyota/Lexus has hit all homeruns with every product.

M

sv7887 · March 2005

Gshocksv,
I've researched the last gen XJ (98-03) alot and have noted a steep improvement in reliability. I'm pretty sure Jag is on the way up in this regard, but their ratings drop with every introduction of the new model. The new XJ is a disappointment. It looks too much like the X-Type, and doesn't have that classic Jaguar look to it. It's almost like the prom queen who's put on a few too many pounds. (apologies to any women on this board..) I'm strongly considering buying a 03 XJ8 once I get back to the US. I've seen so many in London and they look outstanding.

Merc,
I'd the first to agree with you on the styling argument. The only LS I like is the 92 that I still have. The 2005 is a significant improvement on the '02 that I had..Its' profile is not as sleek as I like though..It was part of the reason I considered the S Class before I got my new car.

The recent Lexus styling is even blander..I maintain that the original designs were the best ones. The GS looks "okay" and the IS does look interesting. RX, LS, SC are all just okay. The ES just looks really weird. I think the rear is elegant but the front look is like a smiling bug.

It's why I'm hot for the XJ8..It may have some issues, but it's still the looker of the lot. (At least the old one) I feel that manufacturers are compromising looks for aerodynamics. I haven't seen a real stunner from anyone in recent time. I don't think all of the 80's MB's were slab sided. I'd still buy a mid 80's SL in a second if they still made it. IMHO the 80's Benzes were quite elegant and looked solid.

SV

oac · March 2005

Let's see MBs styling trend from the '70s to date. Judge for yourself.....

1970s styling:

1971 280SE

1980s styling

1989 SL560 Coupe

1990 MB styling:

1993 MB 600SEC

1996 MB E320

2000-and up MB styling

2005 S500

pat · March 2005

Um, I think merc1's feelings about MB's styling have been well-established.

It is time for some of you folks to agree to disagree and move on.

Really.

oac · March 2005

Uhm, Pat... Has that "link" issue being fixed now ? I kinda think so, but want you to confirm. Remember my deal ?

pat · March 2005

To my knowledge, it has not - and that has nothing to do with the fact that it is time to agree to disagree on these issues which some of you keep beating into the ground. It is beyond obvious whose minds are not going to be changed no matter what is said by whomever else.

We are in an area where the comments are too repetitive and too personal and not doing anything but driving other members off. That's not what we're about here.

Let's move on.

pat · March 2005

Hmm, maybe the link problem has been fixed?? I've seen one link that I would have thought might be broken and it's not - but it wasn't long enough to make me sure. Guess time will tell.

iancar · March 2005

I think there is a reason for why Japanese cars look bland to you. The reason is many new cars are Japanese brands. For example, everytime i stop at traffic lights i will see either corollas or civics. For some occassion, i even saw 3 or 4 civics at once. Therefore, even the car with greatest style in the world will look bland after millions driving in one. After i got my LS i start to appreciate how Japanese put perfection and innovative ideas with carefully managed details. Everything you touch is polished and soft. The rear seats are filled with choices. (i loved the rear seat accessible cool box)My past S430 is a strip down car compare to that but it cost me at least 10k more.(not to mention the repair cost)

denaliinpa · March 2005

each and every photo is of a classic and unforgettable automobile. MB's styling is
head and shoulders above Lexus. it is original
and timeless. how many picture posters will be on college dorm room walls, teenagers bedrooms, or any place of automotive enthusiasm that contain a Lexus in them?.....none. Lexus has yet to put together a design that isn't forgettable the moment it goes out of production...in many cases even sooner.

when Lexus has any type of concept vehicle that the Lexus faithful become excited about the first thing Lexus does is.....scrap it. i don't know why but they then go back to the car they are replacing and make subtle changes to it and then call it new. just look at the GS. maybe it's not a bad idea to scrap their concepts because most of them are so outrageously styled and odd that i doubt they could give them away if they went into production.

people can harp all day long about CR's, JDpowers....blaw blaw blaw. MB can at least
correct any quality issues they may have. becoming creative and having original ideas is much much harder to do if not impossible.

michael_mattox · March 2005

merc:

The only big deal is that you would make such a comment and then not be able to back it up...

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