High End Luxury Cars

oac · March 2005

I have an LS400 and it does hesitate oh so very briefly.... no biggie to me, personally... I don't zoom off at every stop light. I gently ease into traffic before my heavy foot takes over. And the big hunk LS obliges my heavy foot so readily,

But, back to your test drive. Can you describe its handling with the summer shoes. Was it floaty or sure-footed ? Any leans around bends ? How 'bout straight-line acceleration ? Any ride, handling, performing issues you'd like to share ? Surely, you cannot disqualify a car bcos it hesitates so imperceptibly ? It gotta be a lot more than that, don't you think ? So let's hear it....

hpowders · March 2005

If you are implying by your questions, did it handle like my BMW? The answer is easy. No.
It did seem floaty, sort of like riding high on springs. I didn't feel the road but that's the way it's supposed to be. That's the LS ride-love it or leave it. Apparently many love it. It did lean a bit around turns-not a lot. Better than I expected.
Steering is a little lighter than I'm used to.
Brakes are excellent-I floored it and stopped on a dime-nice and straight. The car accelerated straight too.
This car will never be a sports sedan. It is what it is-relaxing and comfortable. It is not a car that likes to be pushed and I am used to pushing my cars.
I accepted it for what it is and except for the hesitation found the experience quite relaxing.
The difference is that when I got back in my BMW, I was so thankful to be at one with the road with a real driver's suspension and perfect steering. I push it and the car responds.
For me, BMW's are just perfect but I respect you and everyone else here who love their LS 430's. Having driven it myself, I can appreciate where you all are coming from.

oac · March 2005

"It is not a car that likes to be pushed and I am used to pushing my cars."

Beg to differ.... The LS loves to be pushed. I certainly push mine every day, not being a blue-haired Floridian, you know

That car moves, especially if you put it into the "Power" mode. Much better acceleration, despite its almost 2 tons of weight. I recall C&D obtained like 6.3s (Lexus claims 5.9s) 0-60 for an '04, back in a Dec 2003 comparo of super lux cars. That ain't bad for a big sedan.

hpowders · March 2005

I agree. It is a good car-especially for its bulk.
But once you experience a BMW's driving dynamics, it is really hard to drive anything else. Absolute miracles of engineering.
Now if only they could get their quality control act together.

denaliinpa · March 2005

your test drive reminded me of mine.
the LS is a nice vehicle but something
was missing. it is a vehicle that is
good at many things but sporty driving
dynamics is not one of them. it all
comes down to what is most important
to each individual buyer. for
me personally i felt the LS was designed
for someone older...that i was not in
it's demographic.

hpowders · March 2005

Yes. I do see why retirees like the LS 430. It is conservative, cushy, insulating the driver from any road feel. Very light on steering. Very comfortable seats. Good brakes.
A lot of folks(not only retirees) desire exactly these things and Lexus delivers. This is the "luxury" experience that they have perfected.
To each his/her own. I wouldn't like or respect anybody less because he/she drives an LS 430!
I also drove the GS 430 and Lexus is more on target for me with this vehicle.
Steering very well-weighted. Excellent cornering. Good straight-line acceleration. Brakes stop on a dime. Probably the best handling Lexus ever created.
I would like to see the autorags do a comparison of the GS430 to the BMW 545 and the Audi A6. That should prove interesting!

merc1 · March 2005

"Well then that progress to produce a sporty design took a long time - 100 years or so."

Right, like other cars during those years, 4-door luxury cars to be exact had such swoopy designs. Like I said before this is all because Mercedes kills Lexus in design today so naturally the only defense is to reach back 30 years to knock Mercedes, when there was no Lexus to compare to because no doubt the Lexus would have looked far worse.

"Sales - it reverts back to sales because that is the ultimate barmometer that is indisputable. Much of your stuff is subjective to each person which is quite disputable and always will be.

Yep it sure is just like your theories about why people by and how they come to a decision about buying a car. You have no way of knowing anything about buyers reasons outside of your circle.

"Surveys - what a ridiculous statement it is to say we buy because of surveys. Where were the surveys about Lexus in 1990?? Didn't exist of course. But the brand skyrocketed right out of the starting gate. It's too bad that the surveys bother you so much and you have to resort to nonsensical BS to try and counter them."

Got me mixed up. Never stated that sir. Lexus didn't skyrocket at first either, they stayed behind Mercedes and BMW until the RX and the rest of their SUVs got popular. Sales, your favorite word, sales of their cars would put them behind MB, BMW, Cadillac and Acura if thats all they sold. They got lucky by catching the SUV wave while the Germans were not ready. Please stop pretending that all of their cars were stars before 1998. They weren't. The first ES250, GS300 and every edition of the GS and IS since have been duds. Lexus' only claim to fame before the RX was the LS400. Their other sedans were afterthoughts at best, and so was the original SC after Lexus left it on the market for 9 years with no real changes.

M

merc1 · March 2005

"I did go way way overboard. I just can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 kept saying MB's style (which is so subjective) is better than Lexus. Even if MB were the same price as Lexus, I think Lexus still beats MB in safety, value and reliablity (all objective criteria)."

Style is in the eye of the beholder for sure, but Lexus being better in safety? You're free to think what you want, but there is nothing to support that view. MB's do make Lexus' look like Maytags, very reliable but awful to look at.

M

merc1 · March 2005

"I just wonder how MB can sell vehicles in the USA when Consumer Reports comes out in its highly influential April 2005 auto issue on page 18 predicting from its accumulation of previously submitted data that 2005 new car reliability across the MB brand should be about 80% below average.

That is because you've been led to believe that CR should be the ultimate authority on cars for everyone and it cleary isn't. Believe it or not more than a few people couldn't care less what CR says. I think I ready where CR is used by about 40 percent of new car buyers, most of them clueless about other aspects of a car, that CR couldn't even begin to tell anyone about.

Japanese cars in particular need glowing CR reviews, well at least Toyota/Lexus products do because in Lexus' case they surely aren't selling based on performance or styling. Consumer reports caters to those on this board that actually think consumers care about Toyota's earnings last quarter and other irrelevant stuff about behind the scenes corporate matters. For people who want an Audi, Land Rover, VW, or Mercedes based on the car itself CR is only good for wrapping fish heads.

There are other factors when deciding on a car besides reliability. Not that reliability isn't important, but reading these boards every German car (except BMW according to one Lexus owner here) is just not capable of providing a rewarding experience. Yet there are satisfied MB owners on Edmunds, one of which owned a Lexus during the same timeframe as a Mercedes.

It amazes me that BMW is thought of to be more reliable, yet the 7-Series, 5-Series and 6-Series, X5 and X3 have all been very problematic. This is why I don't take surveys as being the bible as Lexus fans do here.

I suggested before that the BMW 3-Series is the model holding up BMW's score in the past, but nope that couldn't be possible to the survey chasers, though they sell over 100K 3-Series a year. Wouldn't they get the most surveys? The 3-Series has been out since 1999, so it should be pretty reliable, but here the finer points of these surveys are not even talked about. There was a Cadillac owner here some time back that said over and over how BMW was superior to Mercedes, yet they purchased a 2002 745i. A brand new model for which no survey could help them determine the reliability of a brand new car at the time. Needless to say that 745i was the worst car they've ever owned as far as reliability. Isn't CR the one that said a 1996 LS400 is more reliable than a new 7-Series?

M

denaliinpa · March 2005

the new GS is interesting.
not offensively styled or radically different. this segment will be a tough nut for Lexus to crack.
i suspect it will sell well for the first 18 to 24 months. mainly because people who like this size Lexus have not had a new car for 6-7 years now. what makes the GS different when long term sales are figured in is that the buyer in the GS's segment imo puts sport over luxury when making a buying decision. the exact opposite of the LS. this has never been a Lexus strong point. plus the German competition are getting all new more powerful engines in their base V8's by the end of this year. 300hp will be on the low end compared to it's direct competitors.

merc1 · March 2005

The new GS will be hot for about 2 years or less, just like the 1998 version was. When the new LSxxx arrives it will take the attention away just as it did at the end of 2000 when the new 2001 LS arrived. The problem is that the LS430's base price is too close to the GS430s and Lexus buyers as evidenced on this board don't care about sport, though some have convinced themselves that the LS can be "pushed" (right). When the typical Lexus buyer looks at the much bigger and more luxurious LS430 that only cost a little more than the GS430 the LS430 gets the sale.

I'm sure Lexus will correct this with a higher base price for the next LS model, if they don't the GS430 in particular will lag again. That and when it comes to sports sedans I hardly see it beating the 5-Series and newcomer Infiniti M45 in a pure "sport" contest. The GS300 on the other hand has always sold better, but with the Infiniti M35 standing on its neck it seems a little overrun too.

To be fair, they do have a GS450h hybrid coming that will get some serious headlines when it arrives for the 2007 model year, and the GS will no doubt get new engines for 2007 after the LS arrives so Lexus may keep the GS alive longer than 2 years this time around.

M

denaliinpa · March 2005

i wonder how high Lexus can really push
the price of the LS. imo there is a point
where most buyers will say ....i won't pay
that much for an overpriced Toyota". whether it
is fair or not i do think there is a ceiling
to what Lexus can charge for a vehicle. Merc1 i said in an earlier post that Lexus just can't look upward at the Germans. they now have to watch the competition coming up from behind.
it is strange that the brand as a whole can't support two 50k+ sedans. it is after all supposed to be a luxury brand?

merc1 · March 2005

We'll see, but I'm guessing next time around the LS will be priced way above the GS if they want the GS to thrive. I'd say at the very, very least 60K, but more like 65K as a base and about 75-78K at the high end. In typical Lexus fashion they'll wait to see where the new S-Class is priced and try to come in right under the new S450's base price for their top of the line LS. I have to give them credit for pricing the LS so smartly but it has been a dual edged sword because pricing the LS so close to the GS430 killed the GS430 years ago, like only 150 units a month in the last few years for the GS430. The current GS/LS price relationship would be like if BMW and Mercedes priced the 745i/S430 within 5-7K of their 545i/E500 models, not smart.

Long as they don't try to challenge Mercedes directly in price I don't think they'll run into too much price resistance.

M

oac · March 2005

That is really nice.... I am teary-eyed already, reading Merc1 and Denali talk about Lexus with such candor and interest.... Could it be .... ? Nah....

Talking of the new GS tho', two new engines and a hybrid are on the way - the 3.5L V6, that should put out 280+hp (due Fall 2006), the 4.6L V8 (due Fall 2006 on the LS), that should put out ~350hp, and the 450h with >330hp (due this year on the GS). Then, there is the 500GT, with a V12-like performance and a V6 fuel economy, in an LS500 LWB. And we don't know if they'll ever build the LF-A and/or the crossover LF-X. The IS gets a vert, coupe, AWD, sedan.... and a 300+hp 3.5L motor due here this Fall..... Hmmmmmm.... may be Lexus has a thing or two up its sleeves, don't you all think ???

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right ?

merc1 · March 2005

I am able to look at things objectively when others do the same...believe it or not. Its only when I read things like S600s and SL aren't luxury cars or that rear side airbags are a gimmick does the bs meter go into the red.

"Talking of the new GS tho', two new engines and a hybrid are on the way - the 3.5L V6, that should put out 280+hp, the 4.6L V8, that should put out ~350hp, and the 450h (3.5L V6 mated to a single/or dual battery) with >330hp, then you got a real killer line-up in this segment. All of these by MY2007/08."

This would be true if the others were going to just stand still. Lexus has better watch out for the Infiniti M35/45 lineup. It is just a matter of time before the E500 gets a new V8 and the 545i becomes the 360hp 550i, via the 750i's new V8. The hybrid will be an interesting car no doubt, but I'm betting on at least 400hp there if they want to be taken seriously by the performance crowd. While 400hp isn't going to even come close to the E55 or M5 or next RS6 it will provide an interesting alternative, mainly for being green. I see it more competing with the 440hp STS-V and Jaguar's S/XJ Type R's that that have around 400hp, but the German midsize tuner cars, 400hp isn't going to do much of anything.

"Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right?"

Of course not in every case, but I bet the demographic for Mercedes is younger, and I'm sure Audi and BMWs are. The LS and ES in particular are bought by more "mature" folks.

BTW, Oac I happen to like what I've seen of the IS so far.

M

tiag_m5 · March 2005

"Unbalanced Whale?" This is utter nonsense. They even admitted the car wasn't equipped with the 18" tires and Euro Sport Suspension and admitted it was not a fair test. You're taking everything out of context.

Don't try to twist the facts. C&D never said that the test was unfair. Why would C&D put together an article and then discredit themselves by saying it was an unfair test? Give me a break. The only thing C&D said was that the LS wasnt equipped with sport suspension and they only mentioned it in order to cover their [non-permissible content removed] and qualify the fact that they mistakenly awarded first place to the car with lateral grip worse than most trucks. Even though the LS was not tested with the Euro Sport suspension, it shouldnt matter by your logic anyway. After all, it wasn't fair for me to compare the more powerful S500 to the LS430 so why should it be fair for anyone else to compare the optioned out LS430 with Euro-Sport vs. a base S430? Talk about a double standard. Even if the LS430 was equipped with these options, it still wouldn't be a BMW... or even an S for that matter, especially given the Lexus interpretation of "sport" that translates to "slightly more consistency than Jell-O with a hair less body roll than a boat". On another note, it is both humorous and telling that Lexus advertises its cars with so much European flair in an effort to disguise its roots. The stodgy narrator on their commercials has an uppity European accent and now they try to market "Euro sport" suspension... why not "Japanese Sport" suspension? Sounds like Lexus is trying to be something it isn't.

Most every comparo I read says the car was competent but not very exciting. We've already had someone post the braking distance and the LS won by a foot. (hardly a win). And what exactly are the significance of skipad numbers? I take it we all race our cars somewhere on a track..Get real. Even the 0-60 numbers are pointless. Most of us just drive around town or to work with these cars. What's your point about a S500/600/55? It's not even a fair comparo to begin with. I would hope a 5.0L V8 or V-12 would run faster. You can only compare the S430 to the LS and not the S500.

You're glossing over the details. Not only is the LS "not very exciting" in every comparo imaginable, but it's also the worst overall performer every time. Wake me up when Lexus engineers a car that doesn't perform and handle like a bus. I don't have my Consumer Report library in front of me at the moment, but it would be interesting to see how the LS scored against the S430 in other performance aspects.

For 13K less, the LS430 has more standard features than the S430. I shopped for both and I know what I'm talking about. They wanted 73K for a S430 4 Matic with Nav and a few other things. My 62K LS430 has way more features than the S430, and there is not a huge difference in performance. The LS is more spirited and comfortable, whilst the S is a bit harsher in ride but better at high speeds.

For 13K less, you may get a better ratio of standard features, but once you add options to an S-Class you get more features overall. Besides, Lexus makes you pay for things like navigation and pre-safe, both of which Mercedes includes as standard. Anyway, something about your statement makes me skeptical. You say that you were looking at an "S430 for $73k" with "4-Matic, Nav and a few other things." Well that's very interesting considering that Navigation has been standard since the 2000 model year (optional with Lexus) and 4-matic is currently a no cost option (not available with Lexus).

The frame construction is probably the biggest factor in the equation here. Electronics as you've mentioned aren't going to make a huge difference. I've mentioned the Airbus vs Boeing Argument. And you've failed to realize no sane CEO of any airline would fly a plane that was not as safe as a competitor. No competent industry insider would dare imply an Airbus is unsafe since it has fewer safety features than a 747.

What are you talking about? If, as you say, an Airbus has fewer safety features than a 747, it is by default less safe... Hands down. More safety features = greater safety. CEOs pull this kind of crap all the time right under people's noses. The same is true in the auto-industry. The CEO of Lexus figures he can get away with skimping on safety features and waiting many years before adopting innovations pioneered by others because he knows that most people are ignorant sheep who can't tell the difference. Those loyal to the Lexus cult are eager to drink their special punch because they figure that Lexus can do no wrong, without even checking things out for themselves. For example, I think it was michael_mattox that didn't know that his LS didn't have rear side airbags... he just assumed it did. Assuming that a company wouldnt risk building an unsafe car is completely absurd. Companies do it all the time just look several GM and older Fords.

It's like putting PreSafe in a Kia..You think all those electronics are going help if the Frame isn't built well? I'm sure MB has a great frame construction, but so does Lexus. I've taken a real world crash in my LS400 and it barely moved despite being hit at 35MPH from the side. Granted there was 7K worth of damage to it, but it kept everyone in the car safe

Yes, frame strength is one aspect that contributes to overall safety. But Im not sure why you assume that Lexus has equally good frame construction. Personal anecdotes are nice but arent exactly the best indicator of vehicle safety. Im sure that more than one person has wrapped their Cavalier around a tree and lived to tell about it, but I think that both of us can agree that the Cavalier is probably one of the least safe cars on the road. Just because you got lucky one time doesnt mean anything. Now, Im not saying that the LS is unsafe per say, but I am saying that you can buy safer.

tiag_m5 · March 2005

Your Logic would make Chrysler and Mercedes the same company...Heck Chrysler is carrying Mercedes.

There is a HUGE difference between the Toyota/Lexus connection and the Mercedes/Chrysler connection. Mercedes and Chrysler were independent companies long before 1998 when Daimler-Benz purchased Chrysler group. Despite financial links, Mercedes maintains its independence as a separate entity from its corporate siblings. On the other-hand we have Toyota/Lexus. This isnt a matter of one company owning another company or one company merging with another company Lexus quite literally IS Toyota in every sense. In Japan you wont find a domestic Lexus LS430 on the road but you will see plenty of Toyota Celisors. Lexus was just re-badge stunt pulled here in the U.S. to lure unwitting Americans into paying $60k for a Toyota. So yes, Lexus and Toyota are the same company its been that way from the beginning.

All the Technology in the World is valueless if it doesn't work properly ..As I recall someone has already posted a list of often purchased parts that could effect the safety of the car.

There was so much wrong with that link Im not sure where to begin. He tried to pull a fast one on all of us by posting some sort of amateur e-bay seller site and then telling us that it was definitive proof of Mercedes reliability issues. Furthermore, he claimed that he didnt see Lexus on this oh-so-professional and accurate website which would make sense considering it was a European site and Lexus doesnt even appear on the radar in Europe. I countered by listing a news release that told of a recent recall of 150k Camrys due to defective side airbags. Furthermore, I linked to an insurance page that listed several safety problems with Lexus vehicles. The point is, if youre going to provide proof of Mercedes reliability issues, at least provide some credible proof. Also, if youre going to preach about the reliability, dont pretend that Lexus is invincible.

Rear seat airbags are of little value the Curtins that protect your head and the seatbelts are the essentual safety features...So Called safety features with little more value then bragging effect is worth how much?

Wrong. I am simply floored by this comment. I understand that you may want to mitigate Lexus disregard for safety by belittling the importance of side airbags, but you simply cannot. Side airbags are vital in any type of side impact. Side head airbags (pioneered by BMW) ONLY protect the head. Side airbags provide protection for the torso and pelvis that a seatbelt alone cannot. The presence of a side airbag can mean the difference between life and death. Just look at some of the side impact tests on the IIHS website and notice how cars without side airbags score extremely poorly and those same cars with side airbags score markedly better. Saying that side airbags are unimportant is just as ridiculous as saying front airbags and seatbelts are frivolous features.

They once did have a great reputation for safety and innovation...If I were buying a 60s or 70s or even 80s car it would be a Mercedes..Times change many cars now have learned from Mercedes and even helped move many of Mercedes safety innovations into the 21st. Century, The result is many cars now rival Mercedes in the area of safety.

The problem with this statement is that Mercedes STILL DOES have a great reputation for safety and innovation. You speak in the past tense, that they did have a great reputation, even though Mercedes has been churning out safety innovations throughout the 90s and into the present. Please, explain to me how others have helped move many innovations into the 21st century. Last I checked, Mercedes was the one of the only ones pioneering these advances and furthermore had all the latest and greatest features years before Lexus. Only Volvo and BMW come close to matching the sheer number of Mercedes safety innovations. Lexus has contributed absolutely nothing and continues to leach off the R&D of others to this day.

You constantly talk about cost cutting in the Lexus...That is true but far from the Negative you seem to want to project it to be.

It seems pretty negative to me that Lexus decided to skimp and save $100 on their flagship sedan by not including rear side airbags. It seems pretty negative to me that Lexus decides to nickel and dime its customers for optional safety features like pre-safe. It seems pretty negative that Lexus waits upwards of 4 years before adopting critical safety features on its models like ESC and head airbags, and even then makes some of these features optional / half-assed on lower priced models. Correct me if Im wrong, but these are just a few of the many instances of Lexus cost cutting that seem pretty negative

The cost saving results partially from Lexus perfected heavy use of robots to build cars...the resulting percision is one of the primary reasons for the Lexus Reliability EDGE....

Again, I already acknowledge that Lexus is more reliable. In fact, reliability is the only redeeming value of Toyota. Hopefully Toyota will force MB to make its cars more reliable, and then people won't have any reason to preach about the virtues of Lexus. However, for me reliability takes a back seat on my priority list when I shop for a car.

tiag_m5 · March 2005

Tiag, you wrote sorry but 0-60 times aren't the only measure of performance. Well, the existence of rear side door airbags or anti-rollover bars isnt the only measure of safety.

You're right, but they certainly carry a lot of weight when measuring safety. And please don't be mistaken, these feature absences are only two of many among the various Lexus vehicles where corner cutting has reared its head.

What you havent shown is how the absence of those safety features outweighs the less reliable brakes of the S. Last I checked, brakes are a safety item, no? CRs reliability data for the Ss brakes, 2000 to 2003 model year cars (-2=poor to +2=excellent) (sample size inadequate to generate ratings for other years:

Well first of all CR is a fraud. Second of all, "reliability issues" with brakes has a wide array of meanings. You make it sound like the brakes on the S-class will just stop working without warning. I assure you that this isn't the case or else there would be a massive NHTSA recall coupled with high profile lawsuits. The issue with S-Class brakes isn't with the brakes failing to work. I would guess that the issues reported to crackpot CR probably read along the lines of "pre-mature wear" due to soft high-friction pads, or the failure of a brake assist computer on startup diagnostic.

Now maybe more reliable brakes are more important than missing safety features, and maybe theyre not. I cant prove it either way, and neither can you. So why dont you just admit that there is no conclusive objective evidence that the S is safer overall than the LS, and give the whole safety issue a rest?

Please, if you have any data that suggests that MB brakes on the S-class simply fail without warning, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I wouldn't be concerned about false pad wear alarms. I would however, be concerned by the multitude of Lexus safety corner cutting found throughout their model line.

tiag_m5 · March 2005

I did go way way overboard. I just can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 kept saying MB's style (which is so subjective) is better than Lexus.

So you can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 are correct? Yes this is a subjective area, but in my opinion MB styling is much better than Lexus. Lexus has no design identity of its own. All Lexus does is mix and match design elements from other brands to form a bland mutt of a car. For years Lexus has been ripping off Mercedes, but I think the most blatant imitation has to be the current LS, which was heavily influenced by the S. The few times that Lexus has ventued off on its own without holding Mercedes' hand has been disasterous. The ES looks like utter trash and the SC430 is quite possibly the ugliest car on the road.

Let those people buy those European junk cars. They will learn except for those fanatics. I and all the friends and relatives did learn from mistakes. Does MB know that if Lexus didn't exist, they would sell a lot more cars? Again look at electronics. I used to own German TVs, but now I only buy Japanese.

No, you don't sound like a Lexus fanatic at all. Not one bit. In fact, it sounds like you have done plenty of research and applied much logic to support your "European junk" claim. :sarcasm: As far as your TV analogy is concerned...Apples and Oranges. Did you know that MB outsells Lexus around the globe and in America MB sells more cars than Lexus? The RX SUV (aka raised Camry) is the only reason why Lexus total sales in the U.S. are higher than MB. All that will change shortly with the new M-class

Even if MB were the same price as Lexus, I think Lexus still beats MB in safety, value and reliability (all objective criteria).

Reliability and value maybe. But definitely not safety. Please, I am interested in your logic as to why Lexus is safer than MB. Is it because Lexus never innovates in safety? Is it because Lexus is slow to adopt safety features? Is it because Lexus doesn't offer as many safety features as MB? That is a very interesting perspective indeed...

Especially considering that MB spanks Lexus in all three areas: Innovation/Introduction/Features

merc1 · March 2005

Yeah I too couldn't believe that about the side airbags being basically called a gimmick or just for bragging rights, yet Lexus will no doubt have them on the next LS. Imagine if a Mercedes didn't have a safety feature like that when every other car in the segment had it. Then you'd see a complete about-face on the subject.

Its the same thing about roll-over protection the SC430, all you'll get is that it has a better sound/Nav system. I couldn't believe that from what is supposed to be a logical thinking group of buyers of a 60K+ convertible!

When you read things like that you realize that all logic has gone out the window in order to detract attention from such obvious and glaring shortcomings.

M

tiag_m5 · March 2005

When you read things like that you realize that all logic has gone out the window in order to detract attention from such obvious and glaring shortcomings.

Exactly. I couldn't have said it any better.

sv7887 · March 2005

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety would probably disagree with you. You seem to ignore that frame construction is the Number ONE factor whether it be an airplane or car.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/06/pf/autos/iihs_side_impact/

It's funny, the New Beetle had all the side impact airbags yet it still did poorly. The Corolla did better (but still not great) with the airbags. Here's a telling quote:

"Four of the vehicles tested -- the Elantra, New Beetle, Forenza and Spectra -- have standard, head-protecting side air bags. But the institute's chief operating officer, Adrian Lund, said the cars had poor structure that failed to prevent injuries to the torso and pelvis."

Notice he's saying the same thing I am: Structure is key. Had any of you had an engineering background like I do, you might understand that. An Airbag isn't going to compensate for a lacking structure.

You've already read in prior posts that the LS430 structure is studied at various engineering schools. The LS430 scores equally well in every objective measure out there. You offer opinions, yet I have facts to back up what I say. Not that I wouldn't mind the extra airbag, but it's not going to make a major difference as shown in the results I've posted above.

You're still taking that comparo out of context. Go back and read the article. They did say it wasn't a fair comparison, and likened the LS430 to wearing slippery ballerina shoes if I remember the quote correctly. And No, the Lexus never scores dead last in anything. It's usually in the higher end of straight line acceleration and middle of the pack in other performance realms. You can bluster all you want but even the Autorags give Lexus it's due.

I've driven a S430 and no, the difference was not huge. The S430 was stripped of options for $78K (List price). The Navigation system wasn't close to that of the LS430. Lexus has been using a DVD based system since 2001, MB 2004. As far as electronics go, Lexus is much better no contest. The Benz looks better and feels marginally better on the highway at 90 MPH. The Lexus has better resale value and reliability. So why would I pay $13K more?

If you're going to consider Objectives, the Lexus wins every time. There is no refuting that one. You keep harping on about Innovation...My answer: We don't care who built it first. So as long as it works. Basically you're making the snob appeal argument, that's what it all boils down to. Sorry, I don't buy my car as status symbol to brag about. I think that perfectly illustrates the difference between Lexus owners and Mercedes owners. It's the same reason I wear a Seiko instead of a Rolex. Reliabilty is better and it does the same exact thing...So why spend $10K for show?

SV

merc1 · March 2005

There is only one thing wrong with your airbag rebuttal, you're using much smaller and far less well built cars in your example. Those cars have absolutely nothing to do with the cars mentioned on this board. They're not nearly as big or well built. Now earlier when tiag_m5 showed you results about various Toyotas you said they were invalid because they weren't Lexuses, so you can't point to an Elantra to make a point here either.

I don't think anyone said that an airbag would compensate for a lacking structure or that any car here had a poor structure. The point of paying more for a luxury car is to have all the latest safety features, especially compared to cheaper cars in this case that have those rear side airbags. Same thing about paying more money should get you a more reliable vehicle. You can't seperate the two because Lexus isn't a safety leader. The issue isn't even that MB or whoever had rear side airbags first, the issue is that Lexus still doesn't have them on what is supposed to be their top-of-the-line sedan.

I think tiag_m5 brought the airbags up at this point just to illustrate how things are glossed over and deemed unimportant by the Lexi who simply can't admit that even their LS doesn't have every base possible covered. Reading this board you'd think Lexus has thought of everything. To say that side airbags are in place for bragging rights is the most ridiculous thing I've read in the last few weeks.

Is roll-over protection on a convertible no big deal either?

M

sv7887 · March 2005

Merc,
You do have a point there. tiag_M5 has repeatedly said the LS 430 is UNSAFE because of the exclusion of a single airbag. No question all high end marques will fare better, but this goes to show the difference that an airbag will make using a common benchmark. You will agree all cars in the compact class have similar build quality? If so, then you will agree the marginal effects of such side airbags will also be accurately shown. The VW Beetle is a superbly engineered car, but the side impact airbags didn't make a difference. In the Corolla case, it made only a marginal difference. The key here is the structure is the No 1 line of defense in a crash. It goes to show that a single airbag does not make one car safer than the other.

No doubt Lexus is slower to adopt these measures, but I take issue with calling these cars unsafe because of the exclusion of a SINGLE device. ALL of these arguments can be used to call the Jaguar unsafe too. Will you accuse Jaguar of cutting corners as well? We all now know the Frame of the LS is used in classrooms for its design. The crash tests have shown that the LS has performed equally well.

In my comment to snobbery I was referring to the "being first in innovation, Prestige, history" and other arguments used to put down Lexus. I was not referring to the side airbag.

The only criticism which I think is valid is styling. Lexus doesn't market to the BMW crowd with the LS, so being #1 in the skidpad, Horsepower, and 0-60 aren't going to be expected. In the fifteen years of reading Lexus test drives the car performs somewhere in the middle. What Lexus' focus is Customer Service, Reliability, cutting edge electronics and cloud like ride. Despite this, the LS always places highly on Auto Rags reviews..

Don't get me wrong, Mercedes is a great car. Once they get their quality issues sorted I'd probably buy one. What I don't get is all this hype about their styling..Jaguar still wins that one hands down..BMW's look terrible these days and Audi is okay. Lexus needs alot of work in this regard, as I don't like their styling direction at all. But then again, I can't even remember the last good looking Japanese car I saw recently..(Mazda RX-8?) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and hardly a reason to slam a marque as being inferior.

SV

merc1 · March 2005

"You do have a point there. tiag_M5 has repeatedly said the LS 430 is UNSAFE because of the exclusion of a single airbag. No question all high end marques will fare better, but this goes to show the difference that an airbag will make using a common benchmark. You will agree all cars in the compact class have similar build quality?"

Well you and Tiag_M5 will have to debate the first part of that, I didn't claim that. My only point was that it seems that anything Lexus isn't leading in is deemed unimportant or irrelevant. A luxury car should have all the latest safety features along with all that other stuff you prize, is my point. Most cars in this segment probably do have a similar build in their structure, but there is no way for any of us here to know that. Just in my limited experience and looking at the specs I think the 5000lb VW Phaeton would be safer than any car here, but that is just my personal belief. It seems to be a veritable tank to me.

" If so, then you will agree the marginal effects of such side airbags will also be accurately shown. The VW Beetle is a superbly engineered car, but the side impact airbags didn't make a difference. In the Corolla case, it made only a marginal difference. The key here is the structure is the No 1 line of defense in a crash. It goes to show that a single airbag does not make one car safer than the other."

I don't really think this is a good example because the VW is a two door car and the Toyota is a regular 4 door, seems to me the Beetle is more at risk in a side impact compared a sedan.

Styling - you are correct way too personal to really debate, but we do. I too think Jaguars are beautiful cars, especially the XJ and XK, but I think Mercedes and Audis are more up to date in styling, while still being true to their heritage. Unlike Jaguar which seems trapped by theirs.

M

hpowders · March 2005

Yes. This could be a problem for Lexus.
A new GS 430 would cost me $53,400.
An equivalent LS 430 would be about $52,000.
You can take it to the bank that the 2007 LS will be priced way above the GS.

hpowders · March 2005

"For me reliability takes a back seat on my priority list when I shop for a car."
Wow! That sure places you in the minority.
I do believe most folks looking for a good new or used car place a very big premium on reliability.
Proof? This is why Lexus/Toyota/Scion has been so successful.
Let's face it people buy these cars primarily for their dependability. Any negative comments by their owners usually have to do with bland styling and not any mechanical issues.

hpowders · March 2005

"Well first of all CR is a fraud."
Wow! This is huge news. A scandal of mega-proportions!
Please list your proof of this in your next posting.
Inquiring minds want to know!

ljflx · March 2005

OAC - the age issue. Don't know about your area but I must have a lot of young looking 60's folk where I live. This 60's group also decided to have kids after they hit the double nickle I guess. Everytime I am in for service I see these real young looking 60's folks dropping off their LS cars. And in town the folks I know have young kids that play sports with my son. But what the heck - the people I know shouldn't count in merc1's logic but the people he doesn't know should.

denalipina - wrong again as usual on prices. Very wrong in fact. Lexus has the LS430 at 62-71K (most are sold at 62-66k), the LX 470 at 65-70K, the GX470 at 50-55K and the SC430 at 62-63K. I'll even leave out the GS430 for this even though it will easily command 52-55K. Some of the new RX hybrids, which has double the A8's annual sales before it is even available also will command 50-52K. But somehow all this adds up to just one $50k vehicle for you. The volune just from the Lexus cars that sell over $50K alone dwarfs Audi's entire US sales including all those cheap A4's. You really need to get your facts straight because they are so off the mark it's comical.

denaliinpa · March 2005

i'll make it simple. how many 4 door SEDANS over 50k does Lexus sell a year?
re badged Toyota SUV's is really what Lexus is all about.

"Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right ?"

you said this not me. does anyone know the average age of the LS430 buyer?

when it comes to safety inovation. if MB and BMW didn't pioneer new safety features for automobiles it seems very unlikely that Lexus would. to me that says a lot about what the brand stands for.

hpowders · March 2005

Yeah. Old bench sitters like Bill Gates drive the LS 430. I wouldn't mind that kind of company.

hpowders · March 2005

I read somewhere that the average age of the LS buyer is around 58. I could be wrong.

sv7887 · March 2005

Hi All,
Since we have been discussing safety alot, here's something to think about. This is totally UNscientific..

http://members.aol.com/sv7887/myhomepage/Cars/92_Crash.jpg

Now my car took a 30'ish MPH impact from a Honda Civic (of all things). The wheel and suspension took most of the hit. Amazingly the wheel was still straight when they tested it. However everything attached to that wheel had to be replaced. I still don't know where $7000 in damage came from. The engine mounts and coolant container also had to be done. All mechanical work was done by the Lexus dealer using OEM parts.

The fender didn't scratch (Amazing what five coats of polish and wax can do) and I felt it should have been straightened out and repaired instead of being replaced. Ditto for the moulding and bumper. I guess it's all racket from the body shop's perspective. They did a lousy job on the paint. You can see drip marks on the bottom on the fender and the bumper is starting to peel. The fender isn't aligned properly either. Totally unacceptable for a Lexus dealer approved body shop. I'll have a reputable Toyota shop I know fix it.

As far as impact goes, I heard a muted "Thump" and the car barely moved. It drove home and wasn't making any funny engine sounds. The suspension was clearly messed up and the tire was rubbing against the wheel well. (I don't know if you can tell that the wheel is slightly bent in)

This car doesn't have any side impact airbags, pre-collision, or any other electronic measures, but makes up for it in frame construction. I don't think this is an "unsafe" car..I'd take a hit any day in this car.

While many will disagree I think the old cars were sturdier than the new ones. My friend had a nasty accident in his 1988 MB 300SE and walked away. The car was in the shop for three weeks and was seriously damaged. Like mine, he doesn't have any of this new age stuff. But he wouldn't hesitate to hop back into his trusty 300SE and drive it around. (Mind you he has a '02 S430 but drives his 300SE more..)

SV

ljflx · March 2005

I didn't realize I said anything about Audi, MB or any brands age of buyer. Just inferred that the whole 60's thing is badly overblown. Last I checked in 2001 the avg ages of the S class and LS 430 buyers were real closs in the 50-55 range.

I didn't realize a lux or exclusive brand is defined only by how many 4 door sedans over $50K one sold. I must have been asleep for 40 years. Wow - that leaves out some of the most expensive car brands in the world - Porsche just to name one. How more narrow do you want to define your scope to try and leave Lexus out? You realize I hope that it is a fruitless attempt.

Since Audi isn't one of your safety pioneers I guess they don't count either. Personally this is the silliest argument I've seen yet. Pioneering safety defines lux brand. Volvo should have been there ages ago then.

I for one will never dispute the great things MB has brought to the table in engineering and in safety. Their problem is electronics, reliability, shoddier interior materials and build quality that isn't up to snuff with it's well heritaged past. To call them an inferior brand is wreckless and irresponsible. Yet your Lexus arguments fit those words perfectly.

denaliinpa · March 2005

nothing worse than your car getting hit. body shops today are much better than they used to be but there is still nothing like factory. you were probably better off replacing the fender. why have a filler used to remold it and fill it in. $7000 seems like a lot but the suspension components are most likely made of aluminum and probably very costly.

regarding the construction of your LS and the other cars of this thread. they are all unibody construction. they don't have the traditional ladder type frame as say a pickup truck. the exterior body is also called the safety cage.

300SE is a very nice car. imo a classic. i don't know if it has a traditional frame or not but my guess is that it doesn't. even though the 300SE was very safe for it's day i would bet that vehicles manufactured today...even the LS430! are designed to protect their occupants better.

michael_mattox · March 2005

Merc.

Yea...The best thing the people at Lexus can do is listen to the Germans...Take your advice...Learn how to treat their customers and build a real quality automobile...

Those German cars are real money makers...ROTFLMAO

hpowders · March 2005

According to Ann M Job of Associated Press, the median age of Lexus LS 430 owners is 62 and the median income is $178,000.

denaliinpa · March 2005

the reason i asked how many sedans they sell is this. to me ...Lexus is basically the LS430. most of the other vehicles they sell are imo filler.
re badged units from Toyota. the LS is fine automobile but how can 1 fine automobile be the equivalent of the MB brand and line of vehicles?

the only vehicle that MB manufactures that i feel uses poor interior design and materials is the ML. i know this because i have had 2 of them. the interior didn't match the ability and safety of the vehicle. MB deserved a black eye for that interior but if you have seen photos of the upcoming ML the interior terrific. i had an S and the interior materials are easily on a par or better than anything in its class. all of the MB's that I've seen lately have stunning interiors.

michael_mattox · March 2005

Tiag:

1)Chrysler and Mercedes...Toyota and Lexus...Very similar...In both cases Parent and child are very similar to each other...Chrysler and Mercedes are both unreliable and have difficulity making a profit.......Lexus and Toyota both make the best most reliable cars in the world and are both Blazingly profitable The most Profitable in the World.

The fast one was you trying to run links of 1990 cars and pickups by us including a chevy and not a single Lexus and claim they had anything to do with lexus...HUGE SIGN OF DESPERATION ON YOUR PART TO PROVE THE UNPROVABLE.

A reputation for safety gets tarnished quickly when the cars reputation for reliability goes down the tube...Others Specifically LEXUS/Toyota have safety features that you can be sure will work when you need them.

The ESC in LEXUS works...It is one of the highly replaced parts on the Mercedes...What does that say?

Your wrong...Lexus puts all safety features in their cars that 1) work and 2) make sense and provide function...

That is why they often will take a German engineered feature and have to work on it for a couple of years..So when it goes in their car it doesn't become something may not work when needed, something that often needs replacing because of mal-function.

The manufacture of the Lexus provides some cost savings but the Reliability and absentance of Warrenty repairs (because nothing breaks down) provide Huge savings...I know Caddy Budgeted $10,000 into the price of my old Allante for warrenty repairs...God only knows what Mercedes needs to budget for Warrenty...It has to be a very Big number.

kdshapiro · March 2005

But he also imported an $800,000 Porsche.

gs450 · March 2005

I agree with Merc. As much as people have complained about the GS not coming out with more powerful engines I think the whole idea behind delaying the release of the new engines was to ensure that the car continues to sell after 2 years unlike its predecessor. BTW Merc i went to test drive the 430 yesterday and although i am in agreement with you about mercedes designs in general being more superior to lexus (can't stand the ES in particular) i have to say that i have to disagree with you about the new 430. I think lexus has finally taken a step in the right direction designwise with this new car (finally!).

hpowders · March 2005

Yeah but which one does he drive to the office each day?

hpowders · March 2005

Right. The GS 430 is probably their best handling car up to this point. I was impressed.

gs450 · March 2005

"Well first of all CR is a fraud". until that statement, i was actually taking your posts seriously.

kdshapiro · March 2005

I heard he takes the Porsche out quite frequently. So that's the net, net out of the last 3000 posts. Bill Gates owns an LS430, (and probably millions of dollars worth of other fine Italian and German automobiles as well) and that's the benchmark for this conversation?

hpowders · March 2005

I would like to think that some thought goes into the cars Bill Gates buys.
All I know is that this guy who can own anything he wants, selected the LS430. The fact that he also has an $800,000 Porsche speaks volumes about the $65,000 LS. Why not just exclusively collect Ferraris, Porsches, etc; A $65,000 Lexus?There's got to be a reason, eh? Hear what I'm saying?

hpowders · March 2005

Nah! Much better off using the other "conversational benchmark" that I've been reading here ad infinitum, ad nauseum that goes something like "My Mercedes/Audi is better than your LS 430."
But then again that's the benchmark for the night-shift.
The fact that you got irritated and wanted to change the topic when presented with a simple fact that Bill Gates drives an LS 430 betrays you as a BMW, MB or Audi fanatic.
Why can't you fanatics accept facts? Who said anything about Porsche?
Just like the other fanatic who didn't like the facts CR presented about the German carmakers, so he calls CR a fraud!

kdshapiro · March 2005

Actually I was amused that you needed bolster a point by attempting to make a connection by the implication that rich person A drives luxo automobile B and therefore automobile B is the cats-meow.

Why can't you fanatics just accept the facts. I fully agree Lexus is a great boring brand of car, who has successfully reached their target market, much like MacDonalds. I would never drive one, but that's me.

BTW - I've been a CR fanatic for 20 years, but when it comes time to buy cars, I light the fireplace with the paper the annual surveys are printed on, like some others.

Those surveys don't get you reliable cars, as I found out first hand.

6_speed · March 2005

From what I know, he likes to drive fast. At one point, he had so many tickets that his license was almost suspended. So, what did he do? He bought a very old Mercedes beater - figured you can't go too fast in an old beater. I suppose he figured wrong. But a LS430 fixed that real quick. And THAT is the reason why he's still driving one.

hpowders · March 2005

I am not a fanatic even though I have had BMW's for 13 years now.
But since their reliability has gone down the toilet, I am prepared to dump them in favor of Lexus-either the LS 430 or GS 430.
If Lexus screws up, I will dump them too.
I always laugh at the fanatic mentality whether it's for a sports-team or an automobile.
After Tampa Bay won the superbowl, the fanatical fans who screamed their lungs out all season were rewarded the following season with increased ticket prices and doubled parking rates!
Until Lexus or BMW sends me dividend checks from their profits, I have no loyalty to them. There is no vested interest here.
It's a business relationship. That's it. They offer a product. If I like it, I buy it. If I don't like it, I don't.
I would just as soon sell BMW down the river. So much for my 13 year "relationship" with them.
You folks who spend all night defending Audi or Mercedes Benz, well I just don't get it and never will.
And as far as CR's reliability survey is concerned, there is nothing else out there to help the average consumer shopping for a new or good used vehicle.
JD Powers? I've been driving for 40 years and have yet to be asked to take one of their surveys.
At least CR sends the surveys to each subscriber every year.
The autorags sure don't address reliability. It's even hard to find anything about front seat comfort in most of them. All they care about is performance. Zooming from 0 to 60 mph in 5 seconds. Wow! Gotta have it!!
Ridiculous.

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