High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · April 2005

Now reliablity has "tempered" the enthusiasm for a car that hasn't even been revealed yet, along with poor styling and the increase in size. Nothing but wishful thinking on your part.

What you fail to realize is the Mercedes, unlike Lexus knows how to make a larger car appear smaller. The new ML is larger than the old one, yet it doesn't look it. Ditto for the current E-Class compared to the 1996-2002 model. How in the world is it a mistake to make the S bigger when the 7-Series, A8 and Phaeton are all bigger than the current S? Do you think its a mistake because you think it will look like the 1992 S-Class on the outside? Its not Mercedes' fault that Lexus doesn't know how to get space out of the LS without making it look like a box. When they do try to "style" a car right there is not much room as those have complained about in the new GS.

Mercedes would be very foolish not to make the car bigger in order to at the very least match the competition in room. Lexus gets to make a stretched version of the new LS, but the S-Class is supposed to stay the same size. Only in Lexiland.

M

syswei · April 2005

Personally, I'm all for more roominess in sedans and SUVs...and that's one reason I took a look at the specs of the GS and RL and CLS...but didn't go any further (though with the CLS it was also lack of AWD and the reliability factor).

However I'd like to point out that whatever the exterior dimensions (which I haven't checked), the current E is less roomy on the interior than its predecessor. IMHO the MB designers may have prioritized exterior looks over interior space.

merc1 · April 2005

However I'd like to point out that whatever the exterior dimensions (which I haven't checked), the current E is less roomy on the interior than its predecessor. IMHO the MB designers may have prioritized exterior looks over interior space.

I haven't found that to be the case at all. There a few deminsions that are smaller than before and some are larger, some exterior, some interior, point being the car doesn't look as large as the previous model while it doesn't give up more than a few tenths of an inch here or there and in some cases its larger, all without looking like it. They're basically the same size and yet the current one looks much smaller on the road was my point.

M

syswei · April 2005

My recollection is of reading an MB press release of the E...probably the wagon...and thinking it odd that they put in the release something like "almost as much interior room as the previous generation"...and thinking that if I were the PR person and those were the facts, I wouldn't even mention interior room in the release.

But I do understand your point that visually the new model looks less massive. I think that all the criticism MB got over the old S's massiveness might have influenced this design direction.

ljflx · April 2005

"But I also think MB reliability has tempered the enthusiasm the S would have normally had and I also think that new S will not be as good looking as the current car. As well I think MB is making a big mistake going back to the mammoth size of the old S-class car and putting in that i-drive equivalent technology. That is going to be a car that turns off the better half of many families - in my opinion."

That's my opinion, just like you have an opinion on styling - which often I disagree with. In my circles I don't know anyone who is eagerly awaiting this next S-class and typically these are people that have owned or in some cases still own/lease MB's and would have eagerly sought info about it in the past. I think MB's poor reliability has caused a "hurt" beyond what you think. I've heard it first hand pretty often and it's written up all over the place. Lastly I said nothing about a poor design. I think the current car is a gorgeous car - but from the styling direction MB seems to be going - the creased line on the side ie - I think the new car will be a dropoff in looks. It's an opinion, not fact. Nor is it wishful thinking. Why would I want MB to fall off? They make the type of lux cars I seek. BMW, Audi, Jag and Infiniti don't cut it for me.

merc1 · April 2005

"In my circles I don't know anyone who is eagerly awaiting this next S-class and typically these are people that have owned or in some cases still own/lease MB's and would have eagerly sought info about it in the past. I think MB's poor reliability has caused a "hurt" beyond what you think. I've heard it first hand pretty often and it's written up all over the place. Lastly I said nothing about a poor design. I think the current car is a gorgeous car - but from the styling direction MB seems to be going - the creased line on the side ie - I think the new car will be a dropoff in looks."

Like I said in Lexusland I guess. Sure MB's reliability standings have cause a lot of hurt for their current cars, but people in your "circles" really don't think anything of MB anymore anyway (according to you) so.....I wouldn't excpect them to get excited about anything from MB. I'm sure your ranting about how perfect Lexus is has more than a little to do with them not awaiting news on a new Mercedes. I thought all of them had left MB anyway, which is the way your posts usually read.

Despite what you and "circle" thinks, when a new Mercedes comes out its a big deal, especially a new S-Class.

M

merc1 · April 2005

Sorry, you'll have to produce that one. Until then that sounds like complete nonesense to me.

"But I do understand your point that visually the new model looks less massive. I think that all the criticism MB got over the old S's massiveness might have influenced this design direction."

Of course it did, which is why I find it funny that one could possibly think that it would be a mistake to make the S-Class larger considering that they know how to make the cars appear smaller while being larger and/or the same size as before.

M

syswei · April 2005

I find it funny that one could possibly think that it would be a mistake to make the S-Class larger

Wasn't me that said that...I said I was all for more roominess.

oac · April 2005

Interesting how you are so totally oblivious of reality when it comes to MB. Wake up, man, and smell the roses.... The current single-engined LS430 which is 5 years old is outselling the current S (430+500+600+55) and 7-series (745/760) COMBINED ! Does that get your attention ? Maybe it doesn't, but Germany is certainly concerned. Add the now very public issues of reliability and quality as opined by Cordes himself, and who can forget the recall of millions of MBs at a gigantic cost exceeding a BILLION dollars. All of these will hurt MBs bottomline (something you don't care about, but is real), hurt their image, hurt their brand, and cause MB to struggle even more as they try to over-compensate for their fall, yes, I said fall from grace. It is inevitable, Merc1, much as you would not acknowledge the obvious.

Oh, in Lexusland, we are realists....

syswei · April 2005

Sorry, you'll have to produce that one. Until then that sounds like complete nonesense to me.

OK, I can't find the release. But the EPA data do back me up:

current E320 wagon: 96 cu ft passenger, 41 cu ft luggage, 137 cu ft total

old E320 wagon: 98 - 44  142

So in the case of the E wagon (not sedan), it does appear that room was sacrificed for style. 5 cu ft may not seem a lot, but for example only 10 cu ft separates a 2005 S sedan from a E sedan, and only 10 cu ft separates an E from a C

stroudman · April 2005

I think the recall was for over 1 million cars worldwide, but not millionS.

-You know, I've only been posting here for maybe a month or two, and I've already seen this battle of agendas and googling skills cycle itself through at least once or twice. This is like arguing politics or religion, it's endless. I bring a huge bias of my own to the table, but even I can recognize the character and value of almost every car out there, despite the fact that one (MB) is not only my favorite, but it puts bread on my table as well. Who's less slanted, FOX or CNN? Who was really the master - Jesus, Allah...Yoda? We don't have to be RIGHT about everything just to talk about some cars, do we?

-and it just might be that because the LS sells at a much lower pricepoint, depending on how it's equipped, a larger segment of the market finds it financially accessible. Also, toyota builds a lot more of their car volume-wise. You can almost count on your toes how many 600's and AMG cars are even made, they're practically hand crafted. And MB sells every one they build...

michael_mattox · April 2005

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Do I want a long big turning radius LIMO of a Mercedes...OR....A Smaller LS with more head room and ample leg room front and back with a 20 cu. ft. trunk to go with its very short turning radius?

Hmmmm Easy to park...More spaces to park in the big city...My wife can even wear her hat in the car....A trunk full of two sets of Clubs and all the luggage I will ever need....All of that or do I just want a Pretty Really Long car?

michael_mattox · April 2005

Perhaps they sell every one they build because they don't make many (as you stated) or is it that they are very poor business people and just don't want to sell a bunch of S Class Cars?? even though they are wanted by the masses crowding into the Mercedes Dealers with money in their hands

ljflx · April 2005

"And MB sells every one they build"

But so does virtually every other manufacturer of everything they produce in any industry you want to pick. So what's the point. The real issue is did they build and sell as much as they expected and as profitably as desired. The answer to that is NO. The reasons are many.

merc1 · April 2005

Talk about looking through Lexiglass.

"Wake up, man, and smell the roses.... The current single-engined LS430 which is 5 years old is outselling the current S (430+500+600+55) and 7-series (745/760) COMBINED ! Does that get your attention ?"

No it doesn't because as always you and all the others here forget that price would prevent a S55 or S600 from even coming close to putting the S-Class on the same sales level with a car that sells from 60-63K on a regular basis. Not to mention that the S430 and S500 start a much higher price. Amazingly you write this every year or so like all these cars cost the same. Tell me how a 760Li is going to add up so many sales in order for the 7-Series overall to outsell the much cheaper LS430. Talk about not seeing reality. Price doesn't count in Lexiland I guess.

"Add the now very public issues of reliability and quality as opined by Cordes himself, and who can forget the recall of millions of MBs at a gigantic cost exceeding a BILLION dollars. All of these will hurt MBs bottomline (something you don't care about, but is real), hurt their image, hurt their brand, and cause MB to struggle even more as they try to over-compensate for their fall, yes, I said fall from grace. It is inevitable, Merc1, much as you would not acknowledge the obvious."

Who hasn't acknowledged this? I mean really who said anything about this not being true or that it hasn't hurt Mercedes-Benz? No one here. The problem is that you can't seem to understand that not everyone lives in Lexiland.

We were talking about the future S and styling and what not, yet it always reverts back to this same tired bs about the corporate side and the even more tired more sales=better car, things most buyers (except ljflx's "circle") couldn't care less about. Talk about inevitable and predictable. Yawn.

M

merc1 · April 2005

"So in the case of the E wagon (not sedan), it does appear that room was sacrificed for style. 5 cu ft may not seem a lot, but for example only 10 cu ft separates a 2005 S sedan from a E sedan, and only 10 cu ft separates an E from a C"

Unless you know why Mercedes did that you're just guessing. Forgive me for not looking at a wagon when sedans are what we normally discuss here.

M

syswei · April 2005

Could be that those brilliant MB engineers felt that consumers really want less interior room in a wagon, and just gave it to them.

Someone over on the Luxury Performance Sedans board said "German companies design cars to please German engineers. Admittedly, I do not know their pricing strategy or approach to change. But, tell a German engineer that something does not work properly and the response is either "you are wrong" or "we need smarter buyers". Can you say I-Drive?" Maybe a gross overgeneralization, but I found it amusing.

Anyway you are forgiven for overlooking the wagon. I think I originally looked at the press release because I am always thinking about what comes after the LX for my wife.

stroudman · April 2005

speak for yourself. I've never had anyone do a locked-wheel, complete circle in an S-class car and complain about the turn radius. On the contrary, they are usually pleasantly surprised, unless they are long term MB owners who know what to expect. Now, before you google the specs for the diameters of the two cars in question forthwith back to me, don't waste your efforts. People don't buy full size luxury sedans soley on the turn radius spec. As has been said ad nauseum, you find the LS, and /or toyota in general, to be a superior product, for your personal reasons, and hey - that's great. If you feel this strongly about it, maybe the local Lexus dealer could use another fiery salesman, but not everyone's buying it.

merc1 · April 2005

"Maybe a gross overgeneralization, but I found it amusing."

Yeah I'd say it is, and a little ridiculous too.

M

stroudman · April 2005

...and once again, mass appeal is not what Benz is trying to achieve with the S. You are comparing Hershies to Godiva. A small group of people gladly pay three times as much for a morsel of chocolate than a whole bar, because TO THEM, it tastes better. Toyotas are made to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but they are more certain to bring "the masses crowding into" their showrooms. Egos and arrogance, and maybe some cultural differences notwithstanding, some people like the way the Germans build a car - just let them.

michael_mattox · April 2005

We are in agreement...Turning radious is only one small reason to buy a Lexus as is trunk space and head room, Bigger reasons would be reliability, Ecology (lexus has the cleanest V8 engine in the market meets all California standards without modification the only gasoline car to do so)...Safety...Value ...
Other reasons would of course be looks and prestige...

oac · April 2005

Toyotas are made to appeal to the lowest common denominator

And MBs are not ? You are looking through the rose-colored MB USA glass here. There are literally millions of MBs worldwide, majority of which are low-level C, E and even S-class sedans built for the masses... you know the ones with vinyl seats, no moonroofs, barely an A/C, buttons galore, wheel covers, manual windows and doors, etc.... In many cases, these are found on the roads of Europe used as sherpas for transporting people. Talk about appealing to the lowest common denominator....

oac · April 2005

Who hasn't acknowledged this? I mean really who said anything about this not being true or that it hasn't hurt Mercedes-Benz? No one here

Really ? Maybe I missed something... but its good we are finally admitting the obvious.

We were talking about the future S and styling and what not, yet it always reverts back to this same tired bs about the corporate side and the even more tired more sales=better car, things most buyers (except ljflx's "circle") couldn't care less about...

Merc1, you may not do this deliberately, but when you refer to Len's circle of friends, your tone (to me) comes across as condescending. If I read you wrong I am sorry. Regardless, the new spy pictures of the new S looks terrible, and I will agree with Len here that the new style doesn't look as beautiful as the current S, and was something I was refering to in my previous post, that MB will try to over-compensate and screw things up even more. I guess, time will tell.

michael_mattox · April 2005

LS430s are hardly mass market cars....they compete directly with Mercedes S class and the BMW 7series and outsell them both combined....

We both know that the Mercedes/Chryisler is not making a profit...So why do they build the S class as a show piece for the Chrysler lineup? That is the way Lexus started as a show piece for the Toyota line...and to compete with Honda and the Acura line and it just grew from there leaving Acura and Mercedes and BMW in it's dust (at least at the high end).

You are right again, Some people still do like the way Germans build a car. As has been said many times we all buy our cars for different reasons.

stroudman · April 2005

You can use the products that either Daimler or Toyota make for heavy/commercial worldwide industry to try and make a point, if you wish. I thought this thread was about high end luxury cars as they pertain to the American market?

ljflx · April 2005

But isn't that exactly what you just did with your point about Toyota?? We are not talking Corolla here we are talking LS430, a car hardly made for the lowest common denominator. Let's get real.

OAC - what I said about the MB S is what I feel personally and what I am hearing from others. The brand has lost stature since 2001 when I was shopping. Does anyone think they are as high and mighty as 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago?? I certainly don't nor does anyone I know. It's funny this Lexus group of friends I know drive BMW's, Jags and Lexus and a few have old world MB's because that was when they made great cars. The ones that have or had the newer models were dis-satisfied and switched or are about to.. Does it mean they want a common car. Of course not but relative to what they paid they are/were not happy. But what the heck.

I'll say again I think a larger car than the current car - whether it looks it or not - combined with an I-drive type of technology will not play out well with spouses and the I-drive doesn't play out well with anyone anyway. That's not an attack on MB, it's an opinion I have. When you have faulty electronics you should be looking to fix what is broken not add more tech inventory to go wrong.

stroudman · April 2005

Actually, my point isn't to include corollas. When your flagship car is at a $60-65k pricepoint, there are more people able to buy it, than if it were priced in the high $70's on up. Whether you think the pricepoint is justified or not in either case, is your opinion and mine. Japanese brands are selling their flagship cars at much lower pricepoints than the Euros, so, within the luxury "denominator" it will sell (appeal) to the largest audience. It's vanilla. Because you could pay more for a car and choose not to doesn't mean everyone else has the same option. Some folks are maxing out their budget at the LS pricepoint, but would drive (or at least consider) a 7-series or an S-class if it didn't cost them any more. Every day I see people get very excited about a car only once they realize it fits their wallet.

-I do agree about the electronics. I think Daimler has made some bad decisions lately, and putting in an I-drive type control in the new car is among them. I think they should relinquish the tech war, and get back to simple solidity.

-More than half of the 7 cars I see driven in my area are driven by females, so they can't all be afraid of the technology, tho.

-The folks who are either mourning or musing over the recent fall of Mercedes are talking about cars whose problems took 2-4 years to make the front page. The suits at Daimler said by '06 they would have these problems corrected, and so far, they seem to be doing so. So it will take a while to get that word out, as well.

syswei · April 2005

Since you're an MB sales professional, I'd be curious as to your take on the JDP non-quality-related survey results. For instance, go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp and add the 2004 A8, 7, S, and LS to the list. Ignoring all of the quality-related categories and looking only at the categories of performance, comfort, features/instrument panel, and style, it really appears that S (and A8) owners aren't all that happy with their cars, after they've made the purchase, as compared to 7 and LS owners. What are your thoughts as to why that might be?

00boxsters · April 2005

Some folks are maxing out their budget at the LS price point, but would drive (or at least consider) a 7-series or an S-class if it didn't cost them any more.

Interesting supposition. Do you have any data to back up this claim? I have seen 'average yearly income of buyer' data on different models but not specifically for the three models you mention.

I believe that the same folks that can afford $65K for a car can afford $75K for a car. Those folks that make $150k plus a year place value very high on their list. Most of them become wealthy because of this mindset among others.

As to Mercedes telling their employees they expect by '06 they would have these problems corrected, well, what would the suits say otherwise? Certainly not the hard truth! "It may take us several years to correct the penny wise and dollar foolish path the top management chose so as to run up their sales stats and stock options in the short term."

blckislandguy · April 2005

I don't know the income stats for lux buyers, but lets get real. A buck fifty for family income in a major metro area is far from wealthy. The average family making 150K is stressed out to just pay the bills and given housing costs in no way do they have S Class disposable income. Two public sector employees (a policeman say working some overtime and a school teacher with an advanced degree) are quickly closing in on 150K for a combined family income. Over 20 Boston policeman and 35 Mass State Troopers last year made over $200,000. None of them are driving 7 Series, S Classes or whatever.

My insurance agent tells me that the lux cars he sees are almost 100% leased or bought by the owner's company. (As a related point, the dealer principal of the MB dealership in ME told me that he doesn't have a very profitable operation because the MB customers in ME all BUY their cars, not lease them. And the leasing is where the money is for a variety of reasons.) My impression is that here in the Northeast the lux market is not as large as it is elsewhere because a lot of people under 60 are in 55K SUVs. There was a statistic a few years ago that the Chev Suburban owner had the highest family income. He of course need the Sub to pull all his toys around.

stroudman · April 2005

I used to sell VW prior to MB, so I would bet the Audi people found their fit and finish honeymoon to be over quickly, and replaced with squeaks and rattles, and check engine lights as well: apple don't fall far from the tree.

with regards to Benz, not a lot of rattles or squeaks, but check engine lights, maybe. I think some of them are "new money" that go out and buy what they think is the biggest, most prestigious luxury car without doing any significant scouting beforehand. These cars aren't for everyone, and so maybe they found that out after spending 6 months in their car. I've heard a lot about how upset all these people are with their S cars, but in three years I've sold maybe 25 of them, both new and CPO, and NONE of them have had any serious issues. My entire owner body in that car are happy as clams. I also don't put a whole lot of stock in these surveys. I also sold Isuzu back in the day, and the trooper was a good, average SUV from the old school, but CR went after them and are probably one of the main reasons Isuzu is all but TU now. Otherwise, I think the folks who are most intolerant of the slightest inconvenience tend to kick up the most dust about it.

-the front seats on the S sit too high. Even when they are adjusted all the way down, it still feels like they should go lower. Unless you're really tall, though, it really doesn't matter.

-the cupholders suck. Bad.

-The nav system, while easier to use, is now mediocre rather than downright sorry.

-The S is long on back seat, but short on trunk. Some folks probably didn't learn just how much on the test drive.

-and I could go on about all of the S-class' inadequacies, there are some. But at the end of the day, I lose a little business to the Toyotas, but I also get people who come back after a while, and want another Mercedes. They always say the same thing: "It just ain't the same, nothing else rides like your car, and I want back in." That's good enough for me.

00boxsters · April 2005

Defining 'wealthy' is a fool's errand here but your knowledge of police income in Mass. is something I could use at a party. Who mentioned anything about major metro areas by the way? You admit 'I don't know the income stats for lux buyers' but then spout off extraneous information. Get real. Insert $250,000 if that helps you see the point.

The point was about those people wealthy enough to afford an LS are likely as able to afford an S or 7 series automobile but choose an LS for better reasons in addition to the $10K or so price difference.

If I am wrong, which is certainly possible, then I'd wonder -Do the super wealthy (those that buy the S/7 series cars over the just wealthy LS buyers) purchase old school for different reasons?

anthonyp · April 2005

That sure was a good post....I think a good salesman makes the buyer have more confidence in a car, even if the car has a few problems....I have had an inportant , serious problem in each Lexus I have purchased over they years---like the beginning-- A bit of trouble to get fixed, but the dealership and people were so nice that the problem is quickly forgotten....I wish you luck , and would think your customers are lucky people Tony ps I don`t think I would be buying any expensive car if I were making one hundred fifty.

00boxsters · April 2005

Income and educational levels of affluent consumers driving luxury cars
"Fixing Cadillac," Newsweek, May 28, 2001
If you wonder who is behind wheel of luxury cars, here are some interesting statistics:

luxury car median age household income % of college graduation
Mercedes-Benz 52 $186,236 71%
Lexus 50 $151,711 69%
BMW 45 $149,609 69%
Acura 48 $107,261 61%
Lincoln 59 $113,656 49%
Cadillac 62 $106,701 46%

Just found this on a google search. :shades:

syswei · April 2005

Interesting stuff, thanks!

sv7887 · April 2005

Hi all,
I see we're back to the same pricing point discussion again. I do think a lower priced car will sell in more volume. Anyone shopping a S500 vs a LS430 will certainly feel the pinch of the pocketbook. I think a better comparo would be S430 sales vs LS430 sales. But even then there is a significant difference. The typical LS sells for less than it's typical $62.7K price, I got mine for 55K. The S430 4 Matic I was shopping was 78K list and they were offering me around $73-74K to buy it. That's still a considerable gap for someone who is stretching it. At some point these prices are going to matter. I had to decide between a 55K LS430 and 74K S430...The price difference definitely factored into the decision.

Normally one would expect the lower priced car to sell more. I recall a funny case with Rolls Royce though. They decided to raise prices and oddly enough, sold more cars. I'd still maintain price is a big consideration in the purchase decision.

Of course owner experience does matter too. I've always liked MB but have been scared off by the horror stories and residual values as of late. Maybe I'll pick up one of those upcoming E320 CDI 4-Matics. As Merc said, MB is great at making a big car look elegant. They've done a great job on their sedans. I only wish they didn't adopt the I-Drive approach. As it is, Lexus routing all the controls through the touchscreen drives me nuts. I'd prefer the Volvo approach with it just popping up when needed.

SV

merc1 · April 2005

"Really ? Maybe I missed something... but its good we are finally admitting the obvious."

Yeah you missed a lot. My point about this was that no matter what is being talked about styling, engines or whatever it goes back to the same irrelevant and imo lame stuff about profits and what not, things that have nothing to do with anything being talked about. No one posting here in favor of Mercedes has ever denied that they have some corporate and reliability problems.

"Regardless, the new spy pictures of the new S looks terrible, and I will agree with Len here that the new style doesn't look as beautiful as the current S, and was something I was refering to in my previous post, that MB will try to over-compensate and screw things up even more. I guess, time will tell."

Yes time will tell because this is nothing more than hype imo, to draw a conclusion about a car you've never even seen before. Spy photos really mean nothing until the finished product is shown. All a spy photo can give is a general idea as to the shape and size of the car. I'm sure you and Lenn will call the next S ugly either way because the current car is so good looking to the point of shaming the LS in that department so naturally you'd want the new one to stumble in that area. Now that Lexus has come up with a lame styling theme L-finesse (yeah right) you've convinced yourself that the GS is a good looking car when its really nothing but a rework of the previous car with too much wheelbase and BMW hoff kink at the rear and yet poof new styling direction that gets killed by another Japanese car in the M35/45 let alone the E-Class or A6 in styling, of course IMO. You guys believe anything Lexus says or does, and can't see anything else.

M

iancar · April 2005

My business partner in Japan offered me a ride of a life time. His car, "Century", was a Toyota(?!) flagship in japan. The car looks classy and maintains an old Japanese car front and tail design. The side mirrors is built on the side of the over-hangs (another classy design that reminded me the old time). The biggest surprise come under the hood: a VVTi V12 (It is a shame that I forgot to ask how many horses it can produce.). Since i did not drive it, I cannot tell how it perform either. But even in the noisy Tokyo streets, the carbin isolate sounds like they never exist. My partner told me it is comparable with a Mercedes-Benz S600 with its horsepower, length, and room. He also told me even though its price tag is lower, Japaneses will respect you more because of it is "a domestic product". It will be hard for toyota (or lexus) to build the next generation LS to beat "Century"'s hospitality or its classic design. For me, its old look is an over kill. It will be the best if they can build me one with Left driver.

merc1 · April 2005

"I'll say again I think a larger car than the current car - whether it looks it or not - combined with an I-drive type of technology will not play out well with spouses and the I-drive doesn't play out well with anyone anyway."

I can understand why you would think this about the adoption of an Idrive like system, but why is it mistake to make the car bigger. Is the S-Class supposed to remain smaller than the Phaeton, A8L and 7-Series L models? This doesn't make sense. Up until all these newer cars came out the Mercedes was usually the biggest car in the class year after year, why on earth would they not offer more interior/trunk space if the competition has it?

M

designman · April 2005

Camp Lexus loves the GS so the next LS is a lock regardless of what it looks like. It could come out looking like Rosemary's baby. Doesn't matter.

"L-finesse (yeah right)"

Love it. They're learning to layer it on thick, as Bangle does.

ljflx · April 2005

The difference in length size of the competitions current cars is half or three quartesr of an inch right now. If that's all MB is going up by then no big deal. But I've read they are going back to the 209" length of the past and IMO that is a mistake. That is all there is to it.

Cheez - you are so worked up because we like the new GS. I haven't read a bad review of its looks anywhere except for a few posts on this board. I find it has a great balance of aggressive sport look and top notch luxury appeal inside and out, with the usual great Lexus build quality. I find it a very different car than the old GS. The pictures failed to show this but in person it was a different story. Plus the Mark Levinson stereo in this car is absolutely incredible. I prefer it's looks over everything else in the class but I'm a buyer in the next level up anyway, so what's the difference. But if you want to think that I feel that way because it is a Lexus then go ahead and think that.

merc1 · April 2005

"The difference in length size of the competitions current cars is half or three quartesr of an inch right now. If that's all MB is going up by then no big deal. But I've read they are going back to the 209" length of the past and IMO that is a mistake. That is all there is to it."

Yeah right. Nothing technical to base this on just the usual bias it seems, the new cars deminsions haven't been seen anywhere by anyone. You heard this and read that ok. Thats all there is too it? Seems like there isn't much of anything to this to me. How in the world you've come to this conclusion I'll never know. Do you really think they'll at 6 inches to the car overall? Really now. Even I'd be surprised if they did that and even if they did MB is a master at making a large car very elegant and proportioned, unlike Lexus. With them its either box cars or whales.

"Cheez - you are so worked up because we like the new GS. I haven't read a bad review of its looks anywhere except for a few posts on this board. I find it has a great balance of aggressive sport look and top notch luxury appeal inside and out, with the usual great Lexus build quality. I find it a very different car than the old GS. The pictures failed to show this but in person it was a different story. Plus the Mark Levinson stereo in this car is absolutely incredible. I prefer it's looks over everything else in the class but I'm a buyer in the next level up anyway, so what's the difference. But if you want to think that I feel that way because it is a Lexus then go ahead and think that."

Somehow I expected no less. You'll like anything Lexus styles because they said they have a new design direction. Worked up? Nah, try tickled because you all are so gullable when it comes to Lexus' press releases. The usuals about stereos and what not, but thats to be expected I guess. You're right the pictures fail to show how truly unnattractive the GS really is. Next the STS its the worst looking car in the class, imo. Too much wheelbase and a humped back that only a L fanatic could love. We'll never agree on styling it seems. Even I can admit when a German car (even a Mercedes) is looking its best, but you guys I tell ya.

Since when do you care what the "autorags" have to say about styling? All the years they said Lexus' were knockoffs they were wrong, but now because some of them like the GS and/or haven't called it ugly or a knockoff you agree with them now. Really now....

Don't change it'll kill me!

M

michael_mattox · April 2005

sv:

You make some good points.

About price, I find it interesting that people who own Lexus generally owned Mercedes S at one time or another (at least the people on this board) That means people with sufficent incomes to buy Mercedes chose Lexus...

I also find many Lexus Converts from Mercedes S but few from BMW 7 and rarely a Lexus buyer moving to/ back to, Mercedes S.

At least that is my observations from the posts of people on this board.

michael_mattox · April 2005

Merc.

I know the SHAME forces me to put a Bag over my head whenever I drive my LS.

The GS is a great looking car...With 4 wheel drive...Should sell very well in snow country.

oac · April 2005

You'll like anything Lexus styles because they said they have a new design direction. Worked up? Nah, try tickled because you all are so gullable when it comes to Lexus' press releases. The usuals about stereos and what not, but thats to be expected I guess...

And it is gullible to like a Lexus just because its a Lexus, but not when it comes to MBs right ? I submit that you are even more gullible than the rest of us since you can only pontificate about these cars. Try them for size... How 'bout that ? Bottomline is that you cannot bring yourself to like anything Lexus, and I don't mean the tepid likeness you spout about the old SC or 1st gen LS either. Let me remind you how abominably ugly old MBs were until the last decade. Timeless you'll call the oldies, but I'll call them ugly ! They were anything but aestethically pleasing. But today's MBs are distinguished MORE by their beautiful design than their quality and reliability, typical benchmarks of a marque brand. Living on borrowed times.....

oac · April 2005

Let's talk about pricing of these high end lux cars for a minute.

What is being insinuated here is that the reason for the LS's greater sales over MB + BMW COMBINED is simply that it is priced cheaper than these two. So, would it be correct to simply state that if priced about the same, all three will sell equally ? Nothing could be further from the truth.

What is pricing ?

Price for a product is a function of the cost of production and a desired level of mark-up. In addition, there is a price that the market will bear for a product, which is also a direct function of the demand for that product. Depending on the level of mark-up, the product may sell more or less.

If the S430 is priced 20% higher than the LS430, does it mean it is worth 20% more ? Is MB pricing of the S-class sedans based on what the market demands or what the market can pay ? How is Lexus able to price a high end luxury car at such an affordable price relative to the S and 7 ??? Put another way, why is the S430 priced that much higher than the LS ?

If MB execs believe they can sell MORE S-class sedans by lowering the prices, why haven't they done so ? Or selling MORE cars not important to MBs business model ? Assume the S430 price is lowered 15%, would that increase sales proportionally ? The next time I hear anyone defend why MBs sell so poorly based on pricing, I'd ask them to go back to their high school economics textbook and re-read the principle of supply and demand. The excuse of higher price meaning lower sales is hogwash, if MBs can be priced lower why aren't they ? Maybe it has something to do with the high cost of production of their cars, or should we say the inefficient production system ??? Conversely, the legendary TPS means the LS can have the same level or higher quality and refinement and yet be priced much much cheaper, at a HIGHER profit margin than the S or 7-series. Go figure....

stroudman · April 2005

please read my posts more carefully...I said just because you, and by you I mean the soldiers of the Toyota army who post here, can spend more on a car than the LS costs, but choose not to, doesn't mean everyone else in this market has the same option. A $60-65k LS can probably be leased in the $800's per month. An S430 average lease (36 months, 15k per year) is easily $400-500 more. I'm sure it doesn't take a genius to notice that some folks in our great country tend to live a bit beyond their means, and are stretching to get into an $800 a month car note, but can't even think about 4 figures. Just because you're living well within your means, don't assume everyone else is. Not everyone with a little money is as smart as you guys, believe me.

-With regards to the lower price/higher sales issue, there are lots of factors, it's not that cut and dried. Mercedes has, however, lowered the price of their car with good results. In 1994 the base price of a long WB S500 was $95,300, and the U.S. sales that year were 2,880 cars. In 1995, the price fell to $87,500 and the U.S. sales for that car in that year were 5,585 cars. Since then, needless to say, the base price is still lower, and the sales higher each year.

ljflx · April 2005

You really are over-reacting badly here. Go back and read my posts. Did I say the next S is/will be ugly. No - I said I don't care for the creased line they (and Honda) seem to like these days (every spyshot I saw has it) and I think the new car will drop off in looks - mainly because the current car is as close to perfect in looks as you get with cars this big. If you read a real negative comment in there - so be it. Then I say that I've read - several times - they are going back to the real large car of the past generations - which was a 208-209" car and I say it's a mistake - in my opinion. None of those cars ever looked anything but big to me. The ability to make a large car l;ook smaller than it is has only occurred - IMO - with the current S-class. But you read another condemnation into that, yet all I said was I thought it would be a mistake. On the other hand I, OAC and others are gullible because we like the GS - supposedly off press releases at that. Truth is none of us liked the car off the press release. We liked it when we saw it in the paint. It's selling well so there must be plenty of others who like it.

Lastly - I have always said I never trust auto rag comparos becaue the bias is toward handling and not the balance most people seek in a car, particularly when we are talking high end lux cars. I always said individual car write-ups are worthwhile.

ljflx · April 2005

When I was lease shopping in 2001 an S430 stickering at $76K and change was $185 more than an LS430 and an S500 stickering at $85k and change was $375 more. That is comparing it to a $62K and change LS430 at that time. The LS430 ultra at $71K and change actually had a higher lease price than the S430 but it was sold out for months.

stroudman · April 2005

Thanks, Tony. This business has been very good to me, and I have had great success by talking very candidly with my prospects and taking good care of my buyers. Without them, I'd have nothing.

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