High End Luxury Cars

drew_ · March 2001

Don't miss the weekly MB Tuesdays chat at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10pm Eastern! All MB fans/enthusists/owners/potential owners are welcome to participate. Hope to see you there!

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pablo_l · March 2001

...they're a matter of taste and style. German cars never have gone for the most sumptuous and cuddly interiors. It's more about ergonomy and somewhat spartan functionality. "Ve zon't vant deeztrakshun in ze cockpit, schweinehund" is the philosophy there. But mind you, if you want to spend 11 hours driving on European highways, few interiors will keep you in better shape than Mercedes' or BMW's. And I say that despite my personal bias for Jaguar interiors (I'd go for an Aston Martin or Bentley, but hey...).

I think all of us have sat in LS400s, and I have 2 colleagues with LS430s, and I do not think that the Lexus sets such a clear standard when it comes to the interior, sorry. It is not a fact, it is personal taste and a mere opinion. I for one am not a big fan of the Lexus interior. The SC430 is another story - gorgeous, if a bit overdone, interior. The LS430 is great, no doubt about it, but not untochable. It definitely has its very cheap touches here and there. To claim it is head and shoulders above the S-class is, in my opinion, an overzealous, borderline silly comment. To me, the best interiors in this class are either the Jag's or the MB's.

drew_ · March 2001

is on now! (6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern). Hope to see you there!
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denniswade · March 2001

to characterize a subjective opinion about a subjective topic is a little silly too, isn't it? Obviously, there are those who prefer the relative sparseness of a German interior to the sumptuousness of a British, French or Japanese interior -- but that doesn't make their passion about it silly. They just have different criteria than you do.

I've driven Mercedes', BMW's, Jaguar's and Lexus' latest offerings back to back for over 6 years running, and my opinions of the cars' relative merits has not changed in all that time. Mercedes is solid, but cold and uninvolving; BMW is sporty, with a touch of softness in the interior that the Mercedes lacks; Jaguar is very sumptuous but confining, and a little vague in the handling department; and the Lexus is both ergonomically near-perfect and sumptuous at the same time. It also has a level of performance and handling that is rather startling, considering its emphasis on smoothness and comfort.

I've said before that I don't care much for the exterior of the LS430; but the interior is simply a work of art, and supremely comfortable. Call me silly if you must -- but that's my opinion, and it's shared by a lot of other people, including ALL of the magazine editors whose reviews I've read.

ljflx · March 2001

Perfectly stated! That is the exact way I feel about the LS430 - spectaclar feeling inside due to the luxury interior, extremely quiet with a great sound system, best ride of any car I've ever been in and very fast with far better handling than many of the auto mags would have the non-Lexus driver ever believe or understand. When those rare instances arise where the Lexus can't negotiate a sharp curve as well as the BMW I'll just slow down a bit. That's what I'd do if I had the BMW anyway and besides that's what the person driving in front of me is doing so I wouldn't have a choice in the matter. By the way the car's design - goofy headlight's and all grow on you every day. Now you still have to explain to me how you got away with that wife comment re the LS400.

flint350 · March 2001

I also defend the Lexus interior as being significantly better than the S-Class. Subjective, yes, but based on sound reasoning. As Denniswade says, most of the press agree that this is a strong suit of the Lexus, to the detriment of the S Class. Maybe "head and shoulders" just doesn't sound good to you, but I thoroughly believe there is a significant (not subtle) difference. Much of the criticism of the Benz centers on its interior and fit/finish. Its use of cheaper parts and the fact that just bringing it up to similar appointment levels as the LS costs big $$$ in options. Have you seen the prices of the designo upgrade? And what do you really get for that except a prettier interior (closer to Lexus) that you probably should have gotten for your original $80-90K. Sorry, but most Lexus folks are quick to accept where our choice falls ever so slightly behind (the German style handling), but the Benz folks seem not to accept that the S Class seriously lags in some areas - interior is one. Reliability is another. The latest Insurance Institute safety ratings, just issued, are another. I'm not saying the S isn't safe or very good, but the Lexus is rated in the highest category and the S Class isn't. So, to end, I must disagree when you say the Lexus does not set a clear standard in this area. Indeed, this is one of the areas where its advantage is crystal clear. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

ljflx · March 2001

Mercede's problem is a basic business one.They were forced (merc1 - I know you don't like me saying it but no one will ever convince me otherwise) to lower prices not just because of Lexus but because they were far too expensive relative to the other luxury cars. When they cut prices they cut quality to preserve profit margins. They also put a low mark-up on the dealer invoice price to the msrp so that the car could not be discounted. The cut in quality hurt a lot. Never would I think, let alone say, that the old LS400 was as good a car as the old S-420 or S-500. But Lexus made big moves in the interior design and quality of materials, tightened the ride and yet still made it smoother/quieter and significantly improved handling while introducing a Euro suspension and an expensive ultra model. But the base car price stays flat and the options are very affordable - $6k in options buys you a lot. So now the car to many, including myself, equals or surpasses the vaunted S-500. MB's problem is that it has been so successful in the past and remains the class leader with the highest prices by far - $18k-25k more for an S-500 over an LS430 is absurd. How are they going to maintain that price point or if not that price than the gross profit it brings in the face of stiffening competition the likes of which they have never seen? Plus they have to deal with the Chrysler problems. A tall order!

denniswade · March 2001

Now that Renault has taken over, Mercedes will have TWO premium Japanese brands to contend with -- Infiniti being more sports-oriented than the Lexus. God help 'em if Honda ever decides to make a real commitment to bringing Acura into the full-tilt luxury class.

I have a feeling they're gonna have their hands full.

remus26 · March 2001

The LS430 interior is better than the S-class interior, IMO, and in the opinion of the magazines also. But that doesn't mean the LS430 interior is head and shoulders above the S-class interior. Definately the S-class interior and Benz interiors in general have gone slightly down market. This is of course, due to the fact that Mercedes-Benz has realized in recent years that they can't charge whatever they feel for their cars. If any German carmakers interior is close to and/or even better than Lexus' interiors it is Audi's interiors. The A4, A6, TT, & A8 all have truly gorgeous interiors. Even Mercedes-Benz or BMW doesn't have equal interiors.

And as for Jaguar. The current XJ8 has a gorgeous interior, but I suspect that the next generation XJ8 will not have as sumptuous & as elegant a interior as the current one does. Why? Look at the S-Type interior and upcoming X-Type interior. The X-type interior is plasticky with very little wood trim and the S-Type interior is also un-traditionaly Jaguar.

drew_ · March 2001

"The latest Insurance Institute safety ratings, just issued, are another. I'm not saying the S isn't safe or very good, but the Lexus is rated in the highest category and the S Class isn't."

Um, FYI, the S-class has never been tested by the IIHS, and it probably won't since it is so pricey and not exactly selling in large numbers. As such, the above statement about the S-class not being rated in the highest category is moot. The internal MB crash test results (specifically the 40mph offset crashes) of the S-class are excellent though, just as they were for the C-class and E-class (which was categorised in the same segment as the LS430). All of these MB vehicles didn't even crack their windshields during the crashes.

Drew
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remus26 · March 2001

Yup, the IIHS or NHTSA usually does not test the S-class Benz because of it's price tag. Therefore their are no test stats for the S-class from either the IIHS or NHTSA for offset, side, or full frontal collisions.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Benz if looking for safety. They are all built like tanks.

pablo_l · March 2001

".. that doesn't make their passion about it silly .." Nor subjectivity or passion are silly, in fact they are utterly critical to a satisfying choice in this car segment. But utterly subjective statements that masquerade themselves as "facts" - *that* is somewhat silly.

I have never made a statement that goes "ABC is better than DEF" when it comes to these cars, because it's *all* based on subjective perception. But many people, you included, continuously rate these cars in absolute terms that I find unacceptable. It's great you love the LS430, it certainly has many aspects people can fall in love with. But become overzealous, and attacking other people's choices, does not add much value to the argument.

denniswade · March 2001

let's be clear about something here: I have NEVER "made a statement that goes 'ABC is better than DEF'," nor have I "rated these cars in absolute terms," nor have I been "overzealous, and attack(ed) other people's choices."

Matter of fact, I don't even "love the LS430" -- I consider it an old man's car (just like the S and the 7), and although I'm 53 I have no intention of acting like it.

Theng kyoo.

ljflx · March 2001

remus26 - I agree the A-8 does have a beautiful interior as well - a bit less showy than the LS430 but very elegant. Rear leg room is wonderful also. LS430 has plenty of rear space to sit comfortably in the back even when the front seats are extended as far back as possible for me - a 6 footer - but the A-8 allows you to stretch your legs as well as sit comfortably. But the car just doesn't hold its value well even though it is so well engineered.

The S-class interior is a good one - but given the price of the car it should be a lot better. It is definitely below the level of either the A-8 or the LS430.

pablo_l · March 2001

I am not sure why you and some other Lexus defenders are so passive-aggressive at times really. You unabashedly make very strong statements about Merc's S-class, basically trashing it. And I don't even own a Mercedes, so really, it is not because I have some irrational emotional stake riding on the S-class. I just think all of these cars are fabulous, and simply are different manifestations of the luxury sedan concept. As the French would say, "Vive le difference!" or something like that. It makes the luxury car world richer to have all these different concepts out there.

And I think *all* of us luxury car owners have to face to a basic reality: *all* brands are increasingly building cars to certain cost and margin targets, as opposed to simply building them to a standard that shies no cost. *All* of these cars have the cheap interior, shared switch-gear or whatever else touch if you look for it. MB and BMW and Lexus and, inceasingly, Jaguar. I for one have no doubt that Jaguar will be increasingly compromising their sumputous interior, it has already visibly started. I can't say my XJS' switches and such were "better" than my XJR's, but they certainly were more unique and not shared with anything else. It's a sign of the times, and if you want no compromises, you'll have to increasingly look at the way-over $100k segment.

While we argue about truly infinitessimal differences in subjectively relevant "interior quality", go check out a Bentley's interior. All of a sudden, a $200k+ pricetag does not look quite as outrageous, as the quality of the interior is at least 10x better than any of these $70-80k cars, really. No remote comparison.

Let's all really chill and smell the flowers, and stop trying to be missionaries about some specific car-brand. That is all I am trying to say.

I do own a brand new XJR, but you'll never hear me even remotely say it's the best car or anything like that. It simply fit my very personal requirement and taste list better. But I can totally see how people can utterly love their very own personal choice. But if any of these cars were truly measurably better, they would utterly monopolize the market. As a rule, people shopping around in this car segment are not utter idiots falling prey to simplistic brand image messages and buying garbage...

merc1 · March 2001

I agree with that part about the image being hurt, but I don't agree that Mercedes changed prices of the S, simply because of Lexus, because the S is still thousands more. For an S-Class to cost 18-20K more than a Lexus isn't absurd...the Europeans won't ever be able to match the Japanese dollar for dollar. I could say paying 70K for a Lexus is absurd. The S-Class has always been this or even more expensive. Thing is there was never a car that could compare for less money. So far they maintaing that "price point" very well. And the LS430 does not surpass the S500, it may match it but it certainly does not surpass it. A S500 admitedly with options is still above the LS430.

denniswade,

I do think Acura will make the next RL (2003) a real contender in the mid-size catergory, but it will be years and years (if ever) before Acura has an S-Class type of car. And if Infiniti's newest Q45 doesn't do it, they're done.

M

blehrlich · March 2001

how Lexus owners/supporters try to make their choice look better by constantly putting down MB, often with wrong suppositions (like crash test and reliability claims). It reminds me of my mother scolding me not to try to make myself look better by digging a hole to put everyone else in (even though my mother is certifiable).

I like the LS430, at least the interior ( I defy anyone to ay that the rear view doesn't look the same as a Toyota Avalon and the front like a Cadillac DeVille). I just like the MB better.

denniswade · March 2001

"You unabashedly make very strong statements about Merc's S-class, basically trashing it."

When have I trashed the S-class? The only negative thing I've said about ANY Mercedes is that I don't care for the driving dynamic -- hardly a "strong statement." And I've often said that I absolutely LOVE the SLK and CLK (two of the most beautiful cars on the road today, in my opinion).

You don't seem to tolerate disagreement very well. Please stop trying to pick a fight where there isn't any. It doesn't lend any light to the topic at hand, and it's unpleasant.

blerhlich: I agree -- the styling of the LS430 is derivative and uninspired. Hopefully they'll let Calty design the next one (not likely!).

flint350 · March 2001

Geez, it almost sounds like I'm not entitled to my own opinion! (and it was clearly stated as opinion). The title of the board suggests an ongoing comparison of the breed - hard to do if no one "champions" his/her personal fav. Of course fans and foes are expected to disagree (in a courteous and polite way). None of this lately has sounded particularly meanspirited to me, just energetic. No name calling and IMO no need to "chill". I'm not a missionary for my choice, but I will defend/explain it when faced with opposing views, especially views that I believe are unsound or flawed. I don't believe anyone is "trashing" Benz. You can point out a perceived flaw in a brand without trashing it. And as for "wrong suppositions", I disagree. True, the S might not have been included in the insurance test (which I didn't know at the time) but the reliability issue is real from what I read, even on the S Class board. We all agree that all of these cars are terrific. And they all have their flaws, high points and low points. Pointing that out is not trashing. And with no disrespect to anyone's mother, it's hard to claim the high ground and then "defy" anyone to disagree with your personal point of view. And, as always, that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.

wbwynn · March 2001

All these comments about the exterior are way over done. It's not about the exterior, it's about the superb overall package. The comments that it looks like this from this side or that from that side borders on a ridiculous waste of time and mentality.

The MB500 looks like a Taurus from certain angles....who cares!! The owner of an LS430 is not pre-occupied with others perceptions; he's having way too much fun and satisfaction from the ownership experience.

arcoates · March 2001

Everyone knows I only return when I strongly disagree with something. And this time is that exterior styling does not matter. On a car, that is the aspect that matters the most.

When bringing a new car to market, what part do you think the designers agonize over most? Of course the styling. It has to project the right image, because it is most important. If it's too daring, it will not be bought (i.e. Aztek), but if it is too conservative, it will blend too easily.

I agree that is is not the ONLY thing, but it is probably the most important. If you took a poll, people would say exterior styling is most important. When a car drives by you, you notice the styling. No matter how technologically advanced it is, if it's ugly, you will not take a second look at it. That is the problem the Aztek is having. It is so ugly, that people won't even consider it. Under that ugly duckling skin, it's not a bad vehicle, but people just cannot get past styling.

If a car company disregarded styling and just made their model purely aerodynamic, it would be a fantastic car. Why don't they do it? Because people would not buy it- it would look like a space ship.

To say styling is not a large consideration is ludicrous. Give me an Aztek, and I would sell it. Even if I was in the market for a cross over vehicle. It does not inspire any passion in me, and therefore I would not want to drive it around. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and "beauty" matters a lot~ A.R.

denniswade · March 2001

I wouldn't buy an S500 or A8 for the styling either. I don't think any of these cars (except perhaps the 7) are particularly creative or passion-inspiring. That's what I miss about the traditional Cadillacs -- they were flamboyant and elegant at the same time. Would that they rediscovered their heritage and stopped sending us plain-brown-wrapper snoozemobiles (the Seville being one notable exception).

As nice as the new S is, I now think I prefer the previous version, and I think the new styling cues look much better on the C-class. I also wish they'd rediscover the elegance of the late-60s 280. Now there was a beautiful car.

wbwynn · March 2001

NOT that exterior is un-important, I said the comparisons on this board were "overdone". Did you know that the exterior shape of the LS has a .25 drag coefficient...leading aerodynamics in class by far. Or maybe the shape helps it to be the quietest in class....virtually eliminating wind noise even at 70 MPH+.

Or maybe that the fit and finish is flawless using new manufacturing tolerances that are TEN times more precise than the industry norm (1/1000th).

I happen to like the new exterior better than the old, and it has a purposeful design and grows on you.

ljflx · March 2001

From my perspective it is the S-Class prices that have been bashed in recent days not the car. I don't think anyone in his right mind (unless such person got the ultimate lemon - which I would think MB would replace anyway) would say the S-Class was not a great car. What has been discussed is that the cars higher price doesn't bring better value. I know that when I buy a $500 suit I expect better wool and a better drape than I would get on a $375 suit. So why should cars be any different. What I read on this board is that Europeans are not used to being pampered in interior luxury therefore the S doesn't need it. That's a pretty lame excuse given that it is pampered Americans who the cars are being marketed to. The fact that the Lexus beats it in the place where you reside in the car seems to bother many Benzers. I don't know why - it doesn't bother me that the the Benz handles better. If its not that then you read that you are bashing a great car (the S) or defending your purchase (another great car the LS430). I can't imagine anyone who has to defend a car that is priced much lower than another car and yet brings you better things than the other car in the areas that are most important to you. And if a Benz buyer wants to shell out the extra cash he/she doesn't have to defend that either.

I think there is a different problem here for MB though. That being that the purchasers of the LS430 on this board most notably flint350, wbwynn, bigrichz and myself are probably representative of Lexus buyers in general and we are all S-430/500 buyers if Lexus is not around. How does Mercedes ever take us away from Lexus given that none of us buy the heritage/status nonsense? On top of that you have a company with much deeper pockets, lower labor costs and lower borrowing costs than MB turning up the heat and improving the car. No question that MB is still class leader but the lead is shrinking fast.

xjs5 · March 2001

I am willing to give Toyota the credit it is due
but even I am beginning to think that Lexus buyers buy their car by the pound- if the suspension is beyond RWD/ competent, acceptable, if it is beyond...then it was the redesign because the LS400 was just that. Does any serious person not think that it is demeaning with faint praise the BMW by saying that the Lexus handles almost as well or that the BMW handling at issue comes into play 5 % of the time? What has been talked about with Mercedes is the decline in fit and finish if not build quality- but if Lexus had to compete
in niche markets based on other criteria than RWD/ luxury sedan/ a limosine for your personal use-
and an experienced driver tested the Lexus against the BMW and the Audi- then we'd have to come to the realization that there is genius for building cars and lots of the available ability Toyota doesn't have. I think Lexus is great for building a high quality/ clean cars
but before we rationalize how Lexus is better than Mercedes and better than bread slicing- a serious person is not likely to mistake the Lexus for the BMW or Audi at any price.

xjs5 · March 2001

Here's what I really think of your LS430- I'm very jealous, actually. I can only afford a 40k car. For this I should be and I am made to feel like the kid at public school that wore hand-me-down clothes and payed for luch with welfare stamps.

But some thoughts- if you pay "the extra" for the Mercedes etc. seems to betray a kind of arrogance
that says that Lexus is "it"- Lexus beats everyone- Lexus king of the world! It reminds me of the Shakespeare quote "there is more in heaven an Earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy."

I have a feeling that if I didn't feel that the Audi with its best suspension (S8 not stock or L) performs better at high speed than any car due to its solidity and the direction stability of quattro and gives up nothing
in terms of "luxury" I might think that Lexus was the best and I would think that the rest of Toyotas cars were "building up to that"- but Toyota's cars are wretched both for suspensions and ergonomics. The flagship shows what Toyota can do - incopetent floating/ torture racks with poor seat design and non telescoping steering wheels and windshields bend on to your forehead they give to "the masses"- being one of the masses I don't appreciate it- "we have ways of making you spend money" . I drove many LS400's and I hope the new car is as well made.
It is not a sure thing that it is- time will tell.
Toyota made the Camry cheap in the 97 generation,
made the recent Avalon so cheap it is painful to look inside one, and the 2000 Corolla sounds like
a chain-saw as the engine shakes the car and occupents at idle. It is not just Mercedes that is making cars cheaper- not at all- so I'd give the LS430 the benefit of the doubt- but having watched what they've done to the Avalon, Camry, and Corolla (turn one on, listen, feel the seat vibrate violently and then talk about Toyota quality if you must), I'm keeping an open mind.
I'd like to hear more about the cars and less about why the decision was the best decision.

ejerod · March 2001

Guys we're talking about automobiles here. Not the national defense or the cure for cancer or anything as vitally important as that. I drive the 2001 S500 with the AMG Sports package and I'm happier than a gay man in the federal penitentiary! lol ( and no I'm no where near being gay guys..) I will not knock the LS430 because I was a half prayer away from buying it and saving the 15k or so I spent. But for the life of me, regardless of the drag coefficient and the nice toys and enough wood in the interior to panel a large motoryacht, I just couldn't force myself to like the exterior body style. I own a Lexus GS, and I'm seriously considering the new SC430 which I think is a beautiful car!! I think Lexus has done more to shake up the automotive industry in the last 10 years than anyone has done since Henry Ford started mass production changing the industry forever. But style matters to me as much as content and class. Like I said I own a 99 GS and may purchase the SC430 because they are gorgeous cars and they look like nothing else on the road. There is no mistaking a GS for an E class or a Jaguar S type. There is no mistaking the SC for a CLK or a Porshe. One thing I love is being somewhat unique. IMO the LS430 is a cross between the Avalon and old S class, but so what ? Who cares ? No one's life or livelyhood depends on it except the people who work for Toyota, MB, Jaguar,etc. These are all great cars and to be honest had Lexus been as unique and daring with the LS design as they were with the GS and new SC I would have given them my dead presidents instead of giving them to the Germans. Like Denniswade said, there are more important things to life than who drives the best car. I say let the manufacturers go at it. Let em slug it out until there's blood on the marketing battlefield and teeth and hair flying everywhere!! We the consumers benefit with automobiles that our progenitors couldn't even begin to dream of...whatever we choose to drive

pat · March 2001

I'm not sure that the comments you are making about gay people are particularly appropriate or on topic here. Why not just stick to expressing your own opinions in the respectful and relevant manner that is required by the Town Hall Terms of Use.

Thanks

Pat
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Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

ljflx · March 2001

ejerod - well said - at least on the car part of your post!! SC430 is gorgeous but from what I understand hard to get.

xjs5 - I, for the life of me, can't understand what you are talking about. I could'nt care less what a professional driver thought about a car. I purchase to suit my needs and test drive the cars I'm interested in beforehand. It's pretty easy to form an opinion after a few test drives. I hardly think Benz buyers are arrogant because of their decisions. I almost bought the S-500 and I'd be pretty mad at anyone who would call me arrogant had I done so. On the other hand I don't have any doubt that Mercedes markets status. I would to if I were them, they've been very successful at it for quite some time now. Lexus, BMW and Audi also market status so no big deal there. As for your Toyota for the masses comment - they'd be out of business if that was the case. I just bought my mother a Camry because it is so reliable. She's coming out of a 93 Camry with 93k miles on it. Never a problem with it. The Camry is pretty well made and much improved since 1993 from my viewpoint. Finally on your BMW comment - I drive 110 miles everyday and never encounter a curve I can't easily negotiate with the LS430. In this day and age roads are engineered without hairpin curves. My comment wasn't meant to belittle BMW cars, it was based in the reality of everyday driving.

xjs5 · March 2001

You don't have to be a professional driver to understand the difference between an Audi and a Lexus- I'm not a professional driver and the difference is night and day.

It is not arrogant to buy a car- it is arrogant
to think that one bought a Lexus and IN ESSENCE got a Mercedes and saved 15k. If that's true- the Mercedes is cheaper than I thought. The Lexus is
everything the Mercedes is and better for cheaper- except a slight difference in the way it drives is noted. Comparing a RWD luxury tuned Lexus to a RWD luxury tuned Mercedes isn't that different- maybe because Lexus copied so much of Mercedes.

There is a difference between a BMW 7 Series and any Lexus- do you think BMW enthusiasts
are car enthusiasts for nothing?
Yes, Toyota's cars are without ergonomics until you get to the GS. At least there you have a telescoping steering wheel- you can get that on a Jetta. The Camry suspension floats-
the seat is wrong- it's too narrow- it doesn't have enough or the right adjustments- it's holllow, the steering wheel is wrong- it requires the arms to be held up and streched out, the driving position is wrong- the steering wheel is too far away and the seat back has to be too far back to avoid the windshield. Drive an MR2 and sit on the floor with the roof in your forehead if you want to see how much Toyota could care less about it. I didn't say the Camry is unreliable but now that you mention it the Camry suspension has a big time problem going out of alignment and it can't be fixed- I've read 100's of Edmunds posts about it and I've looked at the NHTSA consumer complaints database. This is from the redesign.
All I'm saying is that someone could take a "my car is better, my car is good enough, what your car does well does not matter" approach to most of these cars and trash the others- what BMW owners think about Lexus would not be fit to print.
I really think you miss the point of the 7 Series with comments to the effect that with modern roads you never drive your LS430 off the road- I hope not!

denniswade · March 2001

Autoworld Weekly rated the 7-series best in handling, followed by the LS430 and Mercedes, then the Jaguar. Nice of you to choose the BMW to compare the LS430 with, but what about its other competitors?

And as for handling, I agree -- unless the differences are enormous, they are unlikely to be noticed in a car of this class. It's a luxury car, fer cryin out loud, not a sports car. And I definitely prefer the feel of the Lexus to the Mercedes. The Mercedes is just not driver friendly, in my opinion -- the BMW and Lexus are. Dunno about the Audi 'cause I haven't driven it -- but I imagine it's pretty nice.

ljflx · March 2001

I drove the Audi - its a very nice car. Handles well but its ride is behind the Lexus and the S-Class. Can't comment on a 7-series because I didn't drive one. I didn't find anything special about the Audi and dismissed it very early. I actually wanted to like this car because of the quattro. The Lexus LS430 beats the pants off of the old LS400 model in virtually everyway and the bodybuild is exceptional. If your comments are tied to the old model than we are not talking the same language here. The new model handles much better than the old.

As for your Toyota comments it sounds like you are pretty bitter about them for whatever reason. I have a Landcruiser and love it though I realize it is not a vehicle for the masses; My mom's Camry is very nice and friends of ours who have Toyotas praise them particularly because of their reliability.

pablo_l · March 2001

A strong statement like ".. The Mercedes is just not driver friendly, in my opinion .." At least this time out, the "in my opinion" disclaimer makes it clear.

Still, I think to say a Mercedes S-class is "not driver friendly" is one of those hyper-distorting arguments. I'd be happy as a lark in a Mercedes S-class, and I haven't heard of any ergonomy complaints from owners.

As to handling, the S-class does offer the sports package, and if utter performance is what you're after, they have something called the S55. Nor the Beemer nor the Lex stand up eve remotely to that package when it comes to performance. Fact is that Mercedes does offer far more idividualization of the car than any other brand, which I think a key advantage in this price range. Sure, it'll set you back even more money, but if that's a concern, Mercedes simply does not want your business in some cases. At least not yet.

Given the huge set of options and sub-models, I do think there is little doubt that Mercedes coul be easily labelled by far most driver-friendly. The only caveat is said driver needs to pack about 40 more bills in his wallet. But that's why they call this luxury segment, and if Mercedes can get people to spend more money than they would for other brands, hey - can't blame them. It's market economy at work. Luxury items, even more than others, are never priced on real cost.

wbwynn · March 2001

I do think that there is a dumb luxury segment and a smart luxury segment....

pablo_l · March 2001

Luxury is always dumb, period. It is utterly irrational. The very concept of luxury is utterly based on making cost irrelevant. The genuine luxury market does simply not care about cost, merely about perceived value.

That is basic marketing theory.

wbwynn · March 2001

I do think that there is a dumb luxury segment and a smart luxury segment....

pablo_l · March 2001

Care to elaborate what, in your expert opinion, falls under "dumb luxury segment"?

denniswade · March 2001

for a car you don't love. (Other than that, all bets are off!)

pablo -- look in the mirror, friend -- you're the only one here that cannot seem to tolerate any disagreement with your infatuation with Mercedes. Get over it -- these are ALL just personal opinions, and they have no more weight than what anyone chooses to give them. Why does it surprise you that some people feel as strongly about their brand as you do about Mercedes?

As for "driver friendly," what I meant by that was that ALL of the Mercedes I have driven for the last 6 years -- E-class and S-class specifically (haven't driven the SLK, but would love to) -- have had interiors that are hard and visually cold, steering that is nicely weighted but not particularly sharp or intuitive, and a suspension that handles rough pavement extremely well but doesn't appear to have that much ultimate grip compared to the competition (in this case, BMW and Lexus).

Now, it is true that you can tune the car to your liking -- and Mercedes is to be commended for that -- but that will cost you even more than the base car, which already costs many thousands more than the Lexus. So unless you REALLY LOVE THE CAR -- and obviously you do -- the Mercedes is simply not a very good value. To me, the BMW is a different story. It's dynamics are so great and the styling so sublime, I'd probably bite down hard and get one in SPITE of the price premium. The last BMW I really fell in love with due to its styling was the 850 -- and the 740 is as close to that as you can get nowadays.

pablo_l · March 2001

If I were even remotely infatuated with Mercedes, I would own one or two. I decided against a Mercedes. And in part for the reasons you provide: I find the interior rather clinical, like with all German cars. That does not make them "driver unfriendly", which is a generic put-down, even if it's just in your opinion. Unlike you, I do not go and say "the Lexus is a cheap Toyota, feebly diguised as a luxury car, in my opinion." Opinion or not, I personally don't go for generic statements that the market quite obviously proves wrong every day.

I'll aid your comprehension one more time: Personally, I own a Jaguar. It was a better subjective choice for *me*. I feel no remote need to defend my choice, nor to declare it superior. That is not polite.

You go on and on about "I am not against Mercedes", while publicly labeling the S-class driver unfriendly. Sure, everbody is entitled to their personal opinion, but if they express strong opinion, hey - if you can't stand the heat, get out of ther kitchen. Don't make it look like your being oh-so-unfairly attacked. Your posturing defines passive-aggressive.

pablo_l · March 2001

...I should point out that I don't mean to single you out. Many others, oddly mostly Lexus defenders, seem to fall prey to the same behavioral pattern: they say "These are all great cars" while the puppet on their lap says "Mercedes is overpriced and inferior and basically dumb", and then wonder why-oh-why some would argue back forcefully against the latter lapses in their argument.

I truly don't care. I just witness a blatant double-standard at work, and point it out. I am neither a Mercedes nor a Lexus enthusiast. And if you want to bash Jaguar as an outdated platform and whatever, be my guest. I don't mind the cars at all. It's the conveniently twisted argument I have an issue with.

denniswade · March 2001

you consider "not driver friendly" such a flame against Mercedes -- perhaps we have a different concept of what that phrase means. I thought I explained what I meant by it. In any case, this argument is neither enlightening nor pleasant.

Have a nice day, pablo. Please continue to share your opinions about cars with us, and keep your opinions about us to yourself.

pablo_l · March 2001

A car that is not driver friendly just utterly and totally seems to miss each and every design principle. I am for one totally amazed anyone could regard an S-class as "driver unfriendly". According to each and every car test I have read, it handles up there with the 7-series, and after just having parked next to one 15 minutes ago, I got to say that the interior is, by any standard, *very* nice. You can prefer another car, and put your own money elsewhere (which I have done), but arguing for it claiming the S-class is "driver unfriendly" is simply ridiculous.

This is all an opinion about the S-class.

wbwynn · March 2001

When I sat in the S500, the interior was just plain disappointing to me, and I knew that I would not part with 80M for this vehicle. Maybe I'm getting old at 48, but I just expected to be overwhelmed...and wasn't.

I took delivery of an LS430 today, and I really love this vehicle (including the exterior!). If not for the LS, I would be in the 500 or the 740...no doubt....because I've owned them before.
I could love an S500 AMG easily, but no more so than that new Silver LS430 in my garage.

I'm very happy and saved $20,000....part of the "smart" luxury car segment!

ljflx · March 2001

No one ever said the S had a disappointing interior in absolute terms. But relevant to its price is a different story. That's all that is being said here. On the other hand people attack the Lexus for being bland and Lexus buyers speak up and say that's nonsense. To you it means we are defending a purchase. That is hardly the case. We are merely refuting a bad statement because it is utterly untrue. The car is very engaged with the road and the only mag that seems to have gotten it right is auto weekly. The fact that it is very quiet and rides great at the same time are its attributes. It exceeds the S in both of those and in interior luxury in my opinion of course.

xjs5 · March 2001

The very concept of luxury is utterly based on making cost irrelevant. The genuine
luxury market does simply not care about cost, merely about perceived value.

Pablo, if this is true, Mercedes is not a participant in the genuine luxury market and no car on this list is a luxury car. Price points of suppliers, cost cutting, and market competition
are what result in buyers questioning the fit and finish of Mercedes and its quality relative to previous Mercedes.

Do you think it is passive aggresive to say:

Many others, oddly mostly Lexus defenders, seem to fall prey to the same
behavioral pattern: they say "These are all great cars" while the puppet on their lap says "Mercedes is overpriced and inferior and
basically dumb",

Is that passive aggressive? I don't know.

When I think of "ride" I think of my teenage neighbor's Nissan.

Am I right? The Lexus and the Mercedes sell at a mutiple of 15x as many units as the Audi?
The Lexus owners are like a gang that go around Edmunds beating up on you if you fail to see the superiority of Lexus? Oh, I see the superiority of Lexus- please don't beat me again lol.

pablo_l · March 2001

I, for one, did not base my purchase on what magazines said. They ranked the XJR dead last in the "performance super sedan" category every time. But based on what I read between the lines, I could sense my personal ranking would be different, simply because I value different stuff higher than the editors did.

Every magazine I have seen rates the dynamic behavior of the LS430 behind Beemer, MB and Audi. Check this very site, or the New York Times Automobile section (which, by the way, I think the most informative, because they simply praise the good aspects of a car, try to come to grips with the design philosophy, and never go for simplistic rankings). Then again, no one buys any of these cars for their lap times around Laguna Seca. But the fact remains that, when it comes to handling prowess, about every editor says the same [quote from New York Times]: ".. I have to acknowledge that after a week in the Lexus on the mountain roads of Santa Barbara County, it was a relief to go back to my own Nissan Maxima, with its tighter, more responsive steering and better road feel. .." To claim, as if being doen repeatedly here, that the Lexus is "class best" in pretty much everything is silly. They'd monopolize the market here.b There is nothing the remotely resembles "fact" to buttress such partisan views.

"Relevant to its price" is relative, too. I, for one, am picky about interiors, and must say I prefer the Mercedes' to the Lexus'. It's because of styling. I find the Lexus a bit too Detroit-like, noveau-epoque Lincoln-like. Nice materials, very comfortable, but subjectively somewhat old. I could say "I would expect more for the price", but I simply realize others love it, are more than entitled to their view and personal taste, which is just as valid. I do not try to come up with artificial "bang for buck" scales that are fake facts, badly disguised personal preferences that state that *I* find I'd prefer different execution.

And if I have a choice between a $5,000 Brioni suit, and a $6,500 Byblos suit, I'll simply buy the one I like best. Once I have committed myself to a somewhat irrational pricetag, I better get what I simply like *best* and suits *me* personally. It'd be stupid to think the $5k suit is a "smarter buy" if I simply like the other suit more. It's not. It is dumb to compromise once you've gone that far.

Sure, car handling is subjective, too. It's great the Lexus dynamic behavior suits you fine, and no one doubts it has a sweet engine, and that its ride is buttery. But you always go the extra step and make those points at the detriment of the other cars' merits. Merits that about every writing so-called expert has already established. And while they might not be as relevant to your choice, it is silly to try to re-define obvious statements.

I don't mind you making your point, of course not. I totally believe you are extremely happy with your car. But why do you have to keep on making value statements about the other cars, particularly some that can be proven wrong easily.

The interior of the S-class is not cheap. That is a ridiculous statement. Every car in here has one or the other cheap touch - it is a general automotive trend, sadly. About the only thing find somewhat cheap about the S-class is the little plastic drawers under the seats (which you never see), and the cup-holders (according to one owner, and cup-holders in car being a US aberration anyway that are ugly no matter what. Whoever tells me their cupholders are sumptuous will see me laugh at them). All cars cut corners.

pablo_l · March 2001

I have no idea what you are saying. If you happen to put a coherent chain of thought together I might be able to reply.

pat · March 2001

Recently, we have had mostly a very worthwhile exchange of ideas, opinions and thoughts, but it seems like a good idea at this point to remind everyone that the Town Hall Terms of Use to which you ALL agreed when you became members requires respectful and civil discourse in the event of a disagreement with other opinions expressed.

Let's all just take a deep breath and find a way to express our opinions and thoughts that does not involve going after other posters in a personal way. Surely we all are aware that opinions are just that - neither right, nor wrong and always arrived at by our own unique set of preferences and priorities. That's what makes us all who we are, and different from our neighbor.

Thanks.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

ljflx · March 2001

I know of no one, other than that NY Times reporter, who would want to own or drive a Maxima over an LS430. What a joke! I read that comment and wonder what on earth she was thinking or how on earth the Times let her write it. To put it in a different perspective it's as if a woman told you she preferred a fake cz over a certified diamond. I don't think anyone took that story seriouly much to the detriment of the NY Times - a paper I couldn't possibly live without.

By the way these are all great cars - no one is hustling you about that. It's you who are reading a double standard into things. What do you expect someone to say that car A is great therefore car B is not. I came damm near close to buying an S - in the end I walked because I didn't believe I was getting my moneys worth. I bought the LS430 because I felt I was getting more than my moneys worth. That's all there is to it.

By the way who ever said the S or Mercedes was dumb? I certainly don't recall reading that at least not about their cars. If you are referring to how they absorbed Chrysler thats a different story. As a businessman with lots of experience in takeovers I'll tell you that how they handled that was as dumb as you can possibly get.

scargo160quick · March 2001

As an owner of an '01 S500 I must say that it is odd that a disproportionately large number of LS430 owners feel the need to justify their purchase. I'm not going to waste my time on such an inane argument but it is odd.

By the way, the fellow (wbynn?) that said he just took delivery today of a LS430, also said he took delivery of a black cherry of the same model about four months ago.

Be happy with whatever you end up with, as all these cars are superb in some respect and there are a whole LOT of people that will never be able to enjoy NEITHER of them.

I agree with the fellow who issued the suit metaphor, at this price level buy what moves you most and you won't regret it.

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