High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · May 2005

Great post.

People sometimes are hypnotized by things that come undone or change before they even realize a change has started. They are at stage 1 and the event is already past stage 10. In my business experience - I have seen it happen time and time again. And all the time people later wonder how it happened and when did it start.

mbzlvr · May 2005

I've had enough of this. If you don't like an MB, don't kill it. Go ahead and buy your Toyota. Yes, a Lexus is a Toyota just as a Chrysler is an MB. Give it up and don't be such sour grapes. Move on.

merc1 · May 2005

If Lexus promises a BMW fighter, but delivers an E-class competitor, as long as the product delivered makes them money (profitable), that's all that counts. I would think that is plainly obvious !

I think what is even more obvious that the meaning of a sports sedan is totally lost on you. It is truly amazing that you seem completely oblivious to all the talk from Lexus about the GS being a BMW fighter, after the car failed to do so.

Again, are you going to hide behind sales and profits if the IS doesn't measure up as a sports sedan also? This is a new level of denial I've not yet seen here. I thought the many conversations about safety, innovations and everything else we've debated were one thing, but this round takes the cake. Lexus says BMW fighter, doesn't deliver that, but its all good because they're selling.

Every car maker sets out to make money and sell cars, but here on the luxury side we're supposed to be able to discuss the nuances that make these cars unique. We should be able to discuss whether or not a car lives up to its billing or not. Profits are made on Corollas and Focuses, but there isn't much else to talk about with those cars either. Yet here we're reverted to the most basic reason for the car industry to sell cars, to make money....all to cover up the fact Lexus missed the target as a sports sedan. We can't even discuss how a car drives or reviews without a sales lesson and the usual (irrelevant to this discussion) analysis of the numbers from syswei. All the sales numbers in the world mean nothing behind the wheel, a very lost point here. Here if a car sells it must have met the main goal of its maker. Classic response to everything, not matter what.

M

merc1 · May 2005

"So what was that about the GS not been sporty enough ? It is beating the M where it counts, and is getting close to the 5 (with a zillion variants). Oh, the LS sales wasn't bad either against the S and the 7-series. I threw in the Q45 sales just to show that lower-priced or *value-priced* product in this space does not necessarily translate to success, as MB fans often state about the LS... And of course, I expect Merc1 to dismiss all of this as hocus pocus !"

No, actually I've finally got it. This is the default reaction when Lexus is mentioned in a less than favorable manner. Mention sports sedan, response is sales. Mention sports sedan again, repsonse is sales of a totally different model. Mention sports sedan again, mention sales of a dud from another brand. I guess this can't be helped when there is no way around the truth about the GS missing its stated target as a sports sedan.

M

merc1 · May 2005

The blame lies with BMW not C&D. 525 and 530 far outnumber 545 on the road. For the amount of money involved, 530 not 545 was the only thing BMW was willing to sell you. C&D explained as much. It's either boneheaded of BMW to charge too much for 545i, or boneheaded of the reader who glosses over the explanation.

Yes it is true that the 525i and 530i outnumber the 545i on the road, but for them to cut off the price of the comparo at 55K when the correct V8 models were only a few more thousand was beyond stupid. Buyers in this segment aren't going to balk at 3-5K for a V8. Classic case of a car magazine knowing how to test cars, but utterly clueless about the "market".

These are not sports sedans, I'm sorry if you are not able to understand that. These are sporty luxury sedans.

Again, you're correct these are luxury sport sedans and some are sportier than others. The problem here is that you're making excuses for Lexus not having made a 5-Series fighter like they said upon showing the new GS. We can debate what we think or consider a sports sedan all day long, but that isn't my point here. The point is that the GS isn't a 5-Series competitor in the sport department. If you going to finger a competitor like BMW and mention sport in the same sentence than a car like the M45 is more of the way to go, of course Lexus didn't do that.

Different people have different takes on their preference on a sporty luxury sedan. By the simple ratio of 525/530 : 545 sold, it should be obvious that most BMW 5 series buyers are more interested in luxury than sportiness.

First sentence is correct and I'm not saying the GS isn't sporty. It is by most accounts, but again their said target is what they missed. Second one is a major assumption. Why because of the hp difference? The 5-Series doesn't need the V8 to be a sports sedan, neither does the M35. Actually a I6 5-Series would probably be sportier than the V8 545i in most areas outside of acceleration so you really can't say what all those I6 5-Series prize the most. I hardly think a luxury biased buyer would be a 5-Series in the first place, their are better riding cars than the 5 in this class, if luxury is higher up on your priority list.

M

merc1 · May 2005

Am I reading those figures correctly? You mean to tell me that a Lexus actually had a sales drop. Oh my. The Lexus sales machine never stops. Never. Expect those numbers to be spun into the positive somehow.

Seriously though and in fairness I hardly see a GS taking away sales of the ES, with the ES being the ultimate blue-hair set ride. If that is truly the case then Lexus really didn't make the GS sporty at all because people I know that have and/or like the ES are as far removed from "driving" as possible. It would a truly awful endorsement of the GS (purpose and image wise) for the ES crowd to like the GS. That would mean the GS isn't a drivers car at all!!

We all know the current IS300 was way past dead even before the new model made the magazine/auto show rounds. Even the few people interested in the current IS probably won't buy it now because the new model has been shown.

The GS430 might take a LS430 sale here and there, that is definitely possible because of their relatively close sticker prices. I'm sure ole Lexy will fixt this for 2007 with the new LS being taken of the 60K mark in base form.

Also, I can't see Lexus repeating the 1998-2005 GS neglect again. They've already stated that BMW (again) is also the target as far as staggering engine introductions to keep the GS fresh. The German brands have done this since day one, but it took "Lexis" a while to catch on. Expect a GS350 and GS460 for 2007 which should give them some added buzz, but they'll have to keep the intro seperate from the new LS of the same year.

M

oac · May 2005

The mid-range luxury-sport sedans of the GS, M, 5-, A6, E350, etc... have different xters. Some are very sporty, some are more luxurious. No car offers everything to the buying public (we've said this before), so each buyer picks what appeals *most* and makes compromises..... The GS is luxury-biased, yet tuned to be sporty as well without compromising the former. The M is sporty-first and has enough luxury features to be at par with the competition. The 5-series is equally sport-biased, and the luxury features are sometimes afterthoughts.... So did Lexus miss with the GS ? I'd say NO. They delivered a car that its target market wanted, a very sporty car, with no compromise on luxury - quietness, refined, build quality, and a gorgeous style to boot. What is not to make the GS successful ? Next year, the GS450h arrives, and maybe the GS350. In MY2008, the GS460 will debut after the LS460 arrives here in MY2007. The staggered releases (a la BMW) will keep the cars fresh, and interest high.

It appears that we just see things from two ends - you are a purist in the car, while I see the total picture, and yes that includes the business end. While you want to bash the GS for not meeting its intended promise from Lexus execs, you fail to acknowledge that the car is successful within its intended target buyers. That's what I am saying with sales - the car succeeds. The old M45 was a dud. It bombed so badly, but I give Infiniti kudos for learning their mistakes and coming out with a better product in the new Ms. But, Infiniti is no Lexus. Lexus does not need to beat BMW to be successful, while Infiniti does need something to hang their hat on, and *sporty sedan* is it. Regardless of how well the Ms succeed in the market, they will never dethrone the 5-series in sales volume, unless they increase the variants to match the Bimmer. Neither will the GS, imo, for the same reason.

merc1 · May 2005

Much more balanced. Where we disagree is on the question is who are the GS' intended buyers? Lexus stated that they wanted the 5-Series crowd didn't they? If that is the case the haven't succeeded and aren't even close. Is the GS a success in its own right? Of course it is. Problem is it seems to appeal to the typical Lexus buyer and that didn't carry it far last time. It basically fell off the map after 2 years. You guys like to talk about bad PR, yet the fact that Lexus bascially dated their own cars, especially the GS300 is of no matter. The Germans have always done this staggered engine/model thing, but Lexus felt the need to make mention that the GS will get an engine transplant down the road, at the time of the GS' introduction. Kinda bass-ackwards to me.

You mention sales like the car has been on sale for a while, but the truth is that it is far too early to draw any real conclusions about sales so soon after the car's introduction. Strong sales and especially initial sales don't mean that the GS is selling to its "intended buyers". I would say that without a doubt its overwhelmingly selling to existing Lexus customers, not BMW converts.

M

brightness04 · May 2005

> Yes it is true that the 525i and 530i outnumber the 545i on the road, but for them > to cut off the price of the comparo at 55K when the correct V8 models were only > a few more thousand was beyond stupid. Buyers in this segment aren't going to > balk at 3-5K for a V8.

IMHO, not including the 545i probably save BMW from some embarassment, since the 545i does not handle as well as the 530i. In any case, they had to draw a line somewhere. Considering that the Infinity M starts at $40k, and Q starts at $56k, the $55k cap is eminently reasonable for "spoilsport sedans." As to whether buyers in this segment balk at the extra $5k for a V8, the overwhelming sales of 525i and 530i show that your assessment is not valid.

> The problem here is that you're making excuses for Lexus not having made a 5-> Series fighter like they said upon showing the new GS. We can debate what we > think or consider a sports sedan all day long, but that isn't my point here. The
> point is that the GS isn't a 5-Series competitor in the sport department.

The bulk of the 5-series sales is in 525i and 530i. The GS430 beat them quite handily, in comparos. 545i doesn't even handle as well as the 530i . . . Lexus delivered a 5 series fighter as promised, beating 530i (by extension also 525i) in various comparos; that is the bulk of the 5 series sold. I haven't seen a 545i vs. new GS430 yet. The new V8 550i is not offered yet, and Lexus obviously can not offer a competitor to something that does not exist yet.

> Actually a I6 5-Series would probably be sportier than the V8 545i in most areas > outside of acceleration

That I actually agree. So what does that say about GS430 beating the 530i?? Lexus has done its homework . . . seems to be the obvious answer, that is, if you have any objectivity left.

> I hardly think a luxury biased buyer would be a 5-Series in the first place, their
> are better riding cars than the 5 is luxury is your first priority.

The highest concentrations of 5 series in the US are to be found in the concrete canyons of the two coasts, not exactly places for exhilerating driving. What the real estate agent wants is the marquee value while carting clients around town in 20mph stop-n-go traffic. BMW 525/535 serves that up in spades.

merc1 · May 2005

Considering that the Infinity M starts at $40k, and Q starts at $56k, the $55k cap is eminently reasonable for "spoilsport sedans." As to whether buyers in this segment balk at the extra $5k for a V8, the overwhelming sales of 525i and 530i show that your assessment is not valid.

But you don't know how many just don't want the V8 or see the need for it as opposed to those who feel that the 545i is too expensive.

The bulk of the 5-series sales is in 525i and 530i. The GS430 beat them quite handily, in comparos. 545i doesn't even handle as well as the 530i . . . Lexus delivered a 5 series fighter as promised, beating 530i (by extension also 525i) in various comparos; that is the bulk of the 5 series sold. I haven't seen a 545i vs. new GS430 yet. The new V8 550i is not offered yet, and Lexus obviously can not offer a competitor to something that does not exist yet."

Who cares what the bulk of sales are in a comparison test? A comparo is for comparo alike cars, not V6s and V8s. That is silly and we'll never agree there. The 545i beat the GS430 handidly in the June issue of Road and Track. Read it and weep. They clearly state that the real contest of sport is between the M45 and the 545i, not the GS430. Here where sport is the thing they're looking for the GS430 is last.

I don't remember mentioning the 550i, but of course that is coming and Lexus will try (and miss) again with the GS460, but this is just my biased speculation of course.

That I actually agree. So what does that say about GS430 beating the 530i?? Lexus has done its homework . . . seems to be the obvious answer, that is, if you have any objectivity left.

It says to me that you need to read the article and see what they said about the BMW not having a V8. I don't have the magazine in front of me, but I clearly remember them mentioning power as one of the main gripes and that they may not have ranked the 5-Series where they did, if it had been a V8 model. In most cases a car that is underpowered relative to the other cars in a test isn't going to win, usually. There are exceptions to this of course, but a 6 compared to an V8, you know that wasn't fair and pretty silly considering that none of the cars in the test are "cheap" in the first place.

M

brightness04 · May 2005

> They've already stated that BMW (again) is also the target as far as staggering > engine introductions to keep the GS fresh. The German brands have done this
> since day one, but it took "Lexis" a while to catch on.

Dosn't this sound just a bit ridiculous? BMW historically had to stagger product introduction due to resource limitation and the need to extend product cycle (to recoupe R&D cost). And that was mostly in the 3-series compact cars, not the mid-size, which historically were usually introduced all at once, with a mid-cycle refresh, which shall we argue was copied from Toyota and Honda mid-size cars?? What's are our Deutschphiles to spin next? If Lexus reliability drops in the future, are we going to hear the Germans did that first too and Lexus only learned to make crap cars to fatten the parts department? ;-)

merc1 · May 2005

BMW historically had to stagger product introduction due to resource limitation and the need to extend product cycle (to recoupe R&D cost). And that was mostly in the 3-series compact cars, not the mid-size, which historically were usually introduced all at once, with a mid-cycle refresh, which shall we argue was copied from Toyota and Honda mid-size cars?? What's are our Deutschphiles to spin next? If Lexus reliability drops in the future, are we going to hear the Germans did that first too and Lexus only learned to make crap cars to fatten the parts department?

Dosn't this sound just a bit ridiculous?

Yes the above does and it really didn't make any sense. Not really response worthy.

M

brightness04 · May 2005

> But you don't know how many just don't want the V8 or see the need for it as
> opposed to those who feel that the 545i is too expensive.

Don't want or not seeing the need for is the marketting equivalent of "balking at." With the flood of free money from the FED nowadays, anyone with a paying job can afford to ride in an LS, S or 7 nowadays, whether people actually do it is all that matters as far as the companies are concerned.

> Who cares what the bulk of sales are in a comparison test? A comparo is for
> comparo alike cars, not V6s and V8s.

Bulk of the sales is all that matters: the bulk of 5 series sales is 525 and 530, so a competitor to 5 series has to be able to compete against these two models. What more need to be said? Porsche fields 6-cylinder in comparisons to other manufacturers' V8 all the time, and those comparos are often far more loaded on sports as opposed to luxury. Comparos should be about comparable price level. If BMW thinks its I6 cars can compete with other makers' V8 at the same price level, let them.

> The 545i beat the GS430 handidly in the June issue of Road and Track. Read it > and weep.

What's there to weep? Didn't you just say 545i is better handling in 530i in just about any category aside from linear accelearation? So R&T biased towards linear accelearation, big deal . . . NOT.

> I clearly remember them mentioning power as one of the main gripes and that
> they may not have ranked the 5-Series where they did, if it had been a V8
> model.

You only have BMW to blame for pricing the 545i at a level comparable to Q and LS. With the coming end of existing currency hedges, BMW is going to face even more difficult competitive issues in the coming months.

brightness04 · May 2005

> Yes it does and it really didn't make any sense. Not really response worthy.

Then why did you respond at all? Oh, yah, thank you for admitting that your initial post made no sense.

merc1 · May 2005

Don't want or not seeing the need for is the marketting equivalent of "balking at." With the flood of free money from the FED nowadays, anyone with a paying job can afford to ride in an LS, S or 7 nowadays, whether people actually do it is all that matters as far as the companies are concerned.

I'll be awaiting some of this "free money". You're grasping here, really. My point about the 545i vs its cheaper siblings is that you don't know for sure what the reason for its lower sales are. I'm sure price is a factor for someone looking at a 525i. We can only guess, but my point is that C&D isn't a market research firm, they're auto testers and they should know better. If you aren't going to compare similar cars then whats the point. The market prefers the ES330 and 3-Series in huge numbers too, doesn't make them "competitors".

Porsche doesn't offer a V8 sports car and their situation relative to their competition is like totally irrelevant. Sports cars like the 911 and its competitors line up even worse when looking at price. Totally irrelevant bringing up Porsche.

What's there to weep? Didn't you just say 545i is better handling in 530i in just about any category aside from linear accelearation? So R&T biased towards linear accelearation, big deal . . . NOT.

Plenty. It proves my point about the GS430 not being the 5-Series competitior as a sports sedan, like I stated at the beginning. Read the article. No I didn't say the 545i was better in handling over the 530i. You've got it backwards. I clearly stated that the 530i is likely better handling than 545i because of less weight. Please go back and read the post. You tried to imply that it made no difference as to whether the 530i or 545i was compared to the GS430, yet when the right car is compared (545i) to the GS430, the GS430 gets beat, when sport sedans are the topic. Kinda destroys that extension theory. The R&T article isn't biased towards acceleration either. They looked at far more than just acceleration and I think you know Road and Track isn't that type of magazine. You know they use a scoring system and a car could do 0-60 in 3 secs and still not win overall. I suspect you know this. You stated that you hadn't seen the 545i vs. the GS430 yet so you should probably read the article first.

M

brightness04 · May 2005

> I'll be awaiting some of this "free money". You're grasping here, really.

When I was talking to my banker last month making IRA contributions, he was trying hard to push a quarter million dollar line of credit on me, absolutely no collateral required. Practically anyone with a job can ride in an LS, S or 7 nowadays if having a luxury car is his/her highest priority in life. Credit is indeed that easy nowadays. For most people however, whether a feature in a car is worthwhile is the deciding factor whether they are getting it (including V8); there is hardly any car that is truely unaffordable any more. People cross shop cars in a general price range after they decide how much they can spend. You'd be surprised at how many people cross-shop ES330 vs. 3 series, with the TL in between. They are all competitors. Four years ago, I cross-shopped the three myself, plus the one I ended buying, the Saab 9-5. For what it's worth, last year, I cross shopped the tall wagon versions of the two, Highlander Limited 3.3 vs. X3, and came home with the Highlander. BMW lost me on both occasions due to lack of engine torque and useable interior space.

> Porsche doesn't offer a V8 sports car and their situation relative to their
> competition is like totally irrelevant. Sports cars like the 911 and its competitors > line up even worse when looking at price. Totally irrelevant bringing up Porsche.

911 vs. Corvette is the classic high end sports car comparo. It's been done numerous times. Your assertion of irrelevence is quite irrelevent.

> It proves my point about the GS430 not being the 5-Series competitior as a
> sports sedan, like I stated at the beginning

Hardly relevent. 545i does not equate to 5-series, which mostly consist of 525i and 530i. GS430 is very much a competitor to 5 series as far as being a luxury car with sporty pretensions are concerned. That's all people are buying those cars for. How many people race their $60k commuters on weekends anyway?

> No I didn't say the 545i was better in handling over the 530i.

That was a late night typo on my part. From the context, both of us actually agree that 530i outhandles 545i due to better weight distribution. So now we have a GS430 out scoring 530i on more than one comparos, losing to 545i in one. Yet enthusiasts like ourselves consider 530i outhandling 545i . . . Looks like all three are quite well matched depending on the buyer's priorities. i.e. Lexus hits the market quite well.

merc1 · May 2005

911 vs. Corvette is the classic high end sports car comparo. It's been done numerous times. Your assertion of irrelevence is quite irrelevent.

My point about Porsche is that they only offer a 6-cylinder engine in their sports cars and the price hardly ever matches up with any of the cars they're compared too, mainly because sports cars on the 911's level are few and far between. The Corvette is another car that is virtually alone in its segment. Neither of these circumstances apply to the mid-size luxury car market which is bursting with choices, all with either a V8 (except the RL) or 6-cylinder engines. Meaning you can can compare cars with the same engine type at prices that line up far more consistantly than the 911 does with its competition like the Corvette.

Hardly relevent. 545i does not equate to 5-series, which mostly consist of 525i and 530i.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. The 545i is not a 5-Series? WHAT? That sir is the ultimate in spin. I haven't heard anything like that since I read that the S600 and 760Li weren't luxury cars. Totally absurd. Now only the best selling models make up the "series" of a particular model? Lets apply such a ridiculous theory to the GS then, that means that the GS430 isn't a GS either because the GS300 outsells the GS430 by a huge amount. I don't believe that the GS430 is not a "GS", but this is how it would work under your theory.

So now we have a GS430 out scoring 530i on more than one comparos, losing to 545i in one. Yet enthusiasts like ourselves consider 530i outhandling 545i . . . Looks like all three are quite well matched depending on the buyer's priorities. i.e. Lexus hits the market quite well.

Wrong. Lexus' hit their own buyers priorities all along, but you seem to forget that they stated that BMW was the target and they didn't hit that target with the GS as a sports sedan. Sure the average Lexus owner is happy about the GS as they seem to be about any Lexus producut. Problem is that Lexus' GS didn't hit the mark as far as a BMW 5-Series competitor. You can try to gloss over this forever, but this truth remains. When sport is the priority the 545i and M45 are the choices not the GS430. BTW, the GS430 didn't beat the 530i based on handling. Read the C&D article! When sport is the criteria and the correct 5-Series model is involved the GS430 lost. There is no way around this.

M

denaliinpa · May 2005

from what i've seen on the road the 6 cylinder GS's seem to dominate. same goes for the E class and the 5 series. imo it's almost always about price.

it does seem to be an unfair and odd comparison to have V8's and V6's competing against one another. they should have used all V8's. price should be secondary when trying to compare such similar sedans.

car and driver's recent issue has an editorial about the hybrid market. they state that the expected demand for hybrids will not exceed 3%. also another article which i believe was in R & T discussed how Honda is really the green company while Toyota window dresses with the prius and the upcoming hybrids while at the same time putting larger and more gas guzzling pickups and suv's into the market.

as for the hybrid GS adding sales. sure it will add some but in the next 2 years i believe GS sales will fall off again just like the prior version. right now there is a strong demand amongst the GS faithful but when that is satisfied sales will slow. too many players in this segment for me to believe that the GS will stand out for more than a year or two.

whether you like it or not the 5 is the benchmark in this category. imo it still is but the competition is catching up.

merc1 · May 2005

Yeah that theory is pretty far out in left field. I've never read anything that was such an obvious attempt to disregard the real test between the V8 models. The 545i isn't a 5-Series?!?!?!? OMG. Yet we're supposed to care what the GS430 does in a test when the GS430 itself doesn't represent the bulk of GS sales? Whamo, doubler Lexus standard being implemented...standby for spin and takeoff.

M

mariner7 · May 2005

You're right, merc1, lexus fans are spinning like crazy trying to justify the stats. Because to them, Lexus can do no wrong!

Production capacity? Gimme a break. You mean Lexus can't increase production any when a new model comes into the line. We all know Toyota is very proficient at flexible engineering.

merc1, ordinarily a GS class would not cannibalize ES sales. But consider ES clientele. Most are not young professionals making car payments from their paychecks. Many are wealthy retirees who could afford more expensive wheels. It's true Avalon probably is bigger factor in this cannibalizing game.

LS & ES taking big dips, Infiniti cars closing the gap on Lexus! And I thought Lexus is almighty!

merc1 · May 2005

Well I saw that post about production capacity, but I decided not to post on it because it was just more of the same, and I found the GS430/5-Series argument more interesting. Yes, that really is interesting that the most efficient car company in the world is suddenly held up by production capacity all of sudden this year. Yet on any give day you'll get a sermon about Toyota's amazing production capacity, ability and techniques. Yet the drop in sales of the LS, IS and ES is capacity problem?

Don't bring up the larger, way more powerful Avalon because it isn't a "Lexus" and doesn't provide the same experience as the ES according to the logic present here. I mentioned that the Avalon really puts the ES330 in the shade and got complete silence, well except for the better dealer service angle. We all know the ES330 is itself just an upgraded Camry as the Avalon is. Problem is that the new 280hp Avi has been upgraded to such a status that it really doesn't make sense to buy an ES330, imo. Now watch dealer service get mentioned, because Avi provides the same isolated/nav/stereo/leather experience that the ES does plus its much bigger and faster. I mean you never see anything mentioned about actual driving from the Lexus camp as its always those things. That is the Lexus experience. So why a similar Toyota isn't capable of delivering the same experience is beyond me and in the case of the new Avi its clearly more car for the same or less money than the ES. It even looks like a Lexus to me, both it and the ES are battling for the worst looking sedan crown.

Lastly, on a different note I thought you were a big Lexus fan unless I'm getting your handle confused with someone else??

M

pat · May 2005

The sarcasm and the derision in here is out of place and needs to stop.

You who persist in arguing with each other about these two brands know that there is no way you are going to let others convince you of their beliefs - why would you think that if you just yell louder and louder and get more and more sarcastic that you can convince anyone else to change their view when you know those tactics won't convince you to change your own mind?

Don't you have anything else to say other than snide and sarcastic comments about one or the other manufacturer (or about each other)? We have some newer participants here who have different perspectives on other things related to the high end vehicles we have the pleasure of enjoying - even if from afar. If a few of you would stop beating each other over the head with opinions that will never change, we might could have an enjoyable discussion.

We are here to talk about a broad subject called High End Luxury Marques. This entails far more than sniping at each other about two specific makes.

The sniping and derision of each other needs to stop and we need to find some other ground to plow.

syswei · May 2005

You're right on the mark as with Infiniti, they are doing great.

But implying that Lexus cars are running out of gas ignores what is happening in the overall luxury car marketplace. It just wasn't that healthy in April. Yes Lexus unit car (ex SUV) sales in April were up "only" 7% (12,425 v 11,573). But BMW car sales were down -19% (14,970 v 18,587) and MB car sales were down -5% (15,414 v 16,239). So yes, Infiniti is doing great, but Lexus is still gaining share of the overall luxury car marketplace.

syswei · May 2005

The GS has beaten the 5 and M in some comparos, and not in others. I don't see why you continue to rail against Lexus for "missing the mark". If the GS lost in most or all comparos, that would be another thing. But it didn't work out that way, did it?

Again I'll ask, where did Lexus promise that the GS would out-handle a 5? This seems to be your criteria for being a proper luxury sport sedan (where you tend to downplay acceleration, for example)...though apparently not every autorag reviewer shares your exact priorities.

designman · May 2005

"BMW's success, for a time being the most profitable car maker in the world (per unit car manufactured), stems from the consistency of its marketing message and image control. It found a market niche building ordinary cars for ordinary people who think they are different and are willing to pay the premium for the expression."

Brightness04... You have the temerity to accuse BMW owners of buying performance marketing hype, yet you measure Infiniti and Lexus performance against BMWs? C'mon man, who do you think you are kidding?

This goes to all of you luxury lovers. Don't be downplaying performance and then use it to your advantage when, by your own admissions, you don't like performance cars. If you love a true luxury car and that car beats a BMW on performance then, guess what, you are not going to like it either. Think about what you are saying. Really.

ljflx · May 2005

Spinning what? You look at a month of data and think the GS sales are cannibalizing a 300 unit sales decline in the LS and an ES model that is such a different car, bought by an entirely different demo? As I said look at comparable inventory days and you can see if a real problem exists. If they've gone up, maybe. If not - it's pure production. Let's have some business common sense here. Toyota car sales jumped 36% in April Do you think that didn't tax their TPS? Do you think they or anyone budgets a 36% jump in sales in a month.- in a mature industry and at a time when they are transitioning hybrids into the picture? Let's get realistic. Intel is worrying about production meeting demand for chips the rest of the year. These things happen when your sales are hot.

oac · May 2005

So what do we know is FACTUAL ? Lexus is going global this year (August). BMW and MB are already global players (to an nth degree !). In this case, Lexus is an upstart despite their 15-yr success in the NA market.

Books and classroom studies abound about the Lexus story in the US. Lexus threatens to duplicate their 1989 episode all over again in 2005. That will be something if they can pull it off. We all know TMC has the $$$ to do anything, including BUYING the entire GM lineup if they so wish

Rumors are flying that GM is talking with Toyota about hybrids, yet mags like R&T are downplaying the importance of hybrids in the market as no more than 3% of demand. Hmmmmmm.... Think we've heard this before.... In the very early days of computers, didn't the IBM CEO once claim that the market for *personal computers* was like 3 !!!!! Yeah, he was sooooo right, wasn't he ?????

Out here in So Cal, I know so many people already thinking about buying a hybrid. And which particular hybrid car comes to mind ? Of course, Toyota's Prius. Foresight..... It wasn't that long ago that GM and DCX were being touted as collaborating on a different hybrid system. Whatever happened to Hydrogen-powered cars, eh ? Seems that idea is, at best, a pipe dream.... Toyota is racking in so much money that they are thinking of raising their prices just to save GM and Ford. Now many people may not think this is significant: But one auto brand trying to help the other survive by pinching itself is rare indeed. Typically, Toyota should be doing everything it can to annihilate GM and take over the #1 spot, but they are actually trying to help GM. That is outstanding....

So while we await the LS460 to go head-to-head with the new 750iL and S550, we can speculate that the battle-royale will be grand, indeed ! 3 new cars all released to go head-to-head, and buyers will have plenty to talk about these cars. If MB fails to reverse its fortunes against the new LS, it may be a pretty tough road ahead for them in this sector, of course, imo. BTW, the new 750iL looks much better than its 745iL it replaced, but that rump....uhhh !!!

What I am really anxious to see are first spy shots of the new LS. It's only 16 months to release and no one has even a snippet of what it looks like. This secrecy is killing me....

stroudman · May 2005

I would have to call myself a European Car Fan, in general, with a heightened interest in the German varieties. When I speak of tradition, I should wish to include jaguar, bently, rolls, SAAB, even volvo. I happen to think the Euros make the best driving cars, the Germans in particular. If business is your angle, and that's how you want to rate the success/effectiveness of a car, that's fine. Personally, I think a Volkswagen golf is a more engaging car to drive than a lexus LS, regardless of which one sells more or to whom.

I don't remember bringing up the M-class...cars, cars.

I am only 35, so maybe as you all say (ljflx) that the whole thing's passed me by, but I don't remember the crown being a car sold here in North America. Of course they may have built something super nice for the folks back home in Japan. If it wasn't, then I don't think it's relevant. I also don't think the TLC is relevant...it was purely an off road, jeep-type vehicle until a few years ago when they added leather and fake wood and started charging double the money for it.

When I was a kid, my family had a cressida. Nice car, but if you compared it to a 300E, xjs, or even a cadillac of the same model year, there is no comparison.

I am well aware of the isetta and the motorcycles, but can we please agree that for the last 30-40 years they (BMW) have developed into a full luxury car line that puts a very strong emphasis on handling and performance? Toyota, honda and nissan have all given chase to this end of the market most recently by comparison, and a great number of buyers have flocked to their cars. Good for them. It's been a very shrewd business move, but it hasn't produced a single vehicle I would trade a Euro drivers car in on. I'm in the minority, and that's how I like it.

syswei · May 2005

What do you think of the fender flares and overall design pictured here?
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=4481

brightness04 · May 2005

> Lets apply such a ridiculous theory to the GS then, that means that the GS430 > isn't a GS either because the GS300 outsells the GS430 by a huge amount. I
> don't believe that the GS430 is not a "GS", but this is how it would work under
> your theory.

I never said the GS430 is not a GS. You are certainly correct however in extending my logic to that GS430 does not equate to GS. The typical GS is a GS300, which is quite competitive to the most common 5 series, the 525, and to a degree also the 530. GS does not have to beat 545i or M5 to steal sales from BMW; beating the 525i and 530i, the overwhelming majority of 5 series out there is plenty good enough for the first model year. Then bring on the hybrids next year.

brightness04 · May 2005

> from what i've seen on the road the 6 cylinder GS's seem to dominate. same
> goes for the E class and the 5 series. imo it's almost always about price.

Price is indeed extremely important. That's why comparing at a set price point is more important than comparing based on equipment. The comparison is for mid-level sporty luxury sedans. BMW and Merc price their V8 mid-size offering at price levels closer to the Q and LS than to the V8 M and GS.

mariner7 · May 2005

Let's suppose new 5 or E comes out, sales of 3 and 5 or C and S promptly drop at least 15%. Everybody would scratch his head and scream cannibalization. Check it out, that's what happens to LS/ES sales since GS came out. I posted April stats clearly showing that.

ES is FWD should have nothing to do with it. Because it's Lexus main competitor in the entry luxury segment, due to IS being a non-factor. And to Lexus owners, Lexus quietness and reliability are foremost, not RWD/FWDness.

Bringing up where in the cycle the models are doesn't explain anything. G35, reportedly in the last year of its cycle, actually is peaking after M comes out.

docnukem · May 2005

I agree (with what I think you are saying). When I suggested cannibalization, I wasn't suggesting that most Edmunds readers cross-shop the ES and LS with the GS. However, I believe that there is a large population of buyers (and non-Edmunds-readers...Gasp!) out there who either want a Lexus because of either: its reliability, luxury, and quietness; its prestige, or (most likely); a combination of the first two. So this group of buyers with their minds set on a Lexus walks into the dealership with a budget. They may have plenty for an ES but not enough for an LS, or they have barely enough for an LS, but a GS is slightly more reasonable.

Sorry, I don't have stats or articles to back this up. This is just a hunch.

stroudman · May 2005

I think it's only a slight indication of what will be sitting on showroom floors a year from now, but not enough to make a final judgment on. The overall design can still be affected positively or negatively by the details, and maybe even different colors. We shall see...

ljflx · May 2005

If you've convinced yourself that is the case (and would be in the other scenarios as well) then go on believing it. Just don't try and sell it to wall street or any business pro - thet'll give it zero crecedence. You could e-mail a wall street analyst who covers Toyota and get his/her opinion of course.

rl81 · May 2005

Dear Warriors of the Religion of the Rising Sun...and...Dear Warriors of the Religion of Walhalla

this is such an entertaining forum to read becuase everyone tried to argue the impossible and there is no way to give even an inch of unterstanding to the other side. Come on give it an inch!!! Only an inch!!! I don't know why you guys don't have anything better to do (but hey, don't listen to me...I don't want to ruin my entertainment)

Anyways let me fix some gaps in your history: BMW in the 50's and 60's
'51...The six-cylinder 501, called the "Baroque Angel", makes its debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show. :surprise:
'54..."Luxury cruiser" from the ISAR River: prototype of the BMW 502 Baur convertible with a new V8 light-alloy engine. :surprise:
'56...the Isetta was introduced...

'59...they were considering a merger with Daimler Benz...kinda funny...

'61...A new class of car: the 1500, BMW's first sporty family sedan
'64...BMW flexes racing muscles: Hubert Hahne wins the German Circuit Championship in an 1800ti, taking 27 out of 28 races.
'65...No more airplane engines for now: BMW's engine plant in Allach, founded in 1955, is sold.
'68...the BMW 1600 convertible is produced in limited numbers and quickly becomes an collector's item.
And by the way...the BMW logo has more resemblance with the bavarian flag...I know the story with the rotor...

Toyota in the 50's and 60's
'47...Toyota released the 1-Iiter engine, small Model, SA Sedan in 1947 (looks like a bug rip-off to me :lemon: )
'53...Toyota came out with a 1,500cc model - the Toyopet Super. This Series featured increased power of 20hp, representing an exceptional improvement in performance. :surprise:
'55...The Toyopet Crown RS was released in 1955. From the beginning, the RS was designed as a family car.
'55...The Crown Deluxe Model RSD came equipped with a radio, heater, electric clock, tinted windows, whitewall tires, fog lights and other amenities, making it Japan's first domestically produced prestige car.

'57...American branch of Toyota and introduced the Crown. Since it lacked power and maneuverability at high speed running, it was hard to be accepted into American market.

'60...Cedric became famous for its 71ps G-type engine, which gave a maximum speed of 130 km/hr. :shades:
'1967...Century...It weighed more than 1.7 tons, had a high-performance, 2.9-Iiter V8 engine and was capable of reaching speeds of 170km/hr.

What does this mean? The two companies had different paths in their past...nothing more, nothing less...I'll let you fight over it, now...

blckislandguy · May 2005

Tony, great post. IMHO this was the way life was say up to the early '60s. Then a lot of us went off to VN, came home to start businesses (that thrived because of the new Interstate System!), and here we are today.

I still think that, assuming the lifestyle and income, a used Arnage for 90K would be preferable to a new S Class. Neither one would be driven during ice and snow conditions but at the end of three years with the Bentley you would have something more than an S Class coming off lease to be auctioned off to wannabe real estate developers. Stroudman, what say you?

merc1 · May 2005

The GS has beaten the 5 and M in some comparos, and not in others. I don't see why you continue to rail against Lexus for "missing the mark". If the GS lost in most or all comparos, that would be another thing. But it didn't work out that way, did it?

All I'm saying is that when sporting qualities are the topic of the review the GS430 doesn't make the cut. Of course it would beat the 5-Series if the reviewers are looking more for luxury, that has been my point all along. Edmunds and Automobile comparos back up that position. However it is also clear that in the Road and Track review what they were looking for, Sport. In the Car & Driver review also, but they tested a 530i, not the true GS430 competitor, the 545i.

Again I'll ask, where did Lexus promise that the GS would out-handle a 5? This seems to be your criteria for being a proper luxury sport sedan (where you tend to downplay acceleration, for example)...though apparently not every autorag reviewer shares your exact priorities.

I have to ask if you've read any of the press releases concerning the GS and/or Clements statements. I'm am far from the only one stating that this was said. I don't have time to go back an read every Lexus press release and/or statement the Lexus chief made. I'm sure you could find them, if you wanted to. Also, Lexus didn't state that they the GS would specifically outhandle the 5, but they did state that they were aim for the 5-Series in general, which means a sports sedan. It would be different if they said E-Class or A6, but they said 5-Series more than once. Please don't put words in my post about me saying that they stated the GS would specifically "outhandle" the 5-Series.

I'm not sure where you got it from that I down played acceleration, never downplayed acceleration. I stated that it doesn't automatically equal a winner in a comparo. Of course its important, but the fastest car doesn't always win either.

M

merc1 · May 2005

What do you think of the fender flares and overall design pictured here?

Good question. Personally I'm not sure what to think anymore. There are other boards that show much greater detail pictures and some of the have those fender flares and some don't. Those flares are more appropiate on the new M-Class, but on the S-Class...no way! There is quite a ruckus on other boards about the new S and its every changing appearance. Also, I posted some more pics here -> Here.

Very detailed I think. I can see the typcial Mercedes big sedan shape, but the trunklid is another point of concern as are those fender flares. There has never been a more anticipated Mercedes in the Benz community.

M

docnukem · May 2005

I don't think mariner7 or I think that Lexus sales are going to suffer. I believe that Lexus will continue to do well and probably sell more cars this year than last. My point is that the increase in sales of the GS might (just might) eat into some of the sales of the LS and ES. That is, even if their numbers go up, could the ES and LS sales have gone up further if the GS wasn't redone? It is, after all, a hypothetical question which nobody will be able to answer unless you unleash a horde of statisticians on Lexus showrooms. I believe Lexus would frown on that.

merc1 · May 2005

When I was a kid, my family had a cressida. Nice car, but if you compared it to a 300E, xjs, or even a cadillac of the same model year, there is no comparison.

We must have come up during "similar" years. That 300E you mention was a member of the greatest E-Class of all time the W124. The W210 didn't measure up imo. Now the current E I feel a lot better about, but well see how it does over its run compared to the W124. Mercedes still hasn't made a car like the W124 "E500". Well, maybe the CLS is as special. It certainly looks the part.

M

syswei · May 2005

That's interesting with the fender flares, there being as you said some pics with and some without. IMHO the flares are over the top and maybe are a bit of MB misdirection. Maybe its all a big MB plot to throw off the Lexus designers who want nothing more than to copy the next S! They'll be laughing if the S doesn't have them but the next LS does, hehheh.

...hey Pat where did the cute little car face icons go?

syswei · May 2005

they did state that they were aim for the 5-Series in general

I can buy that. But...let's accept that Lexus named the 5 as its "target" with the GS. If some comparo editors find the 5 superior, based on their own criteria (which as you suggest would presumably lean toward sport) and others find the GS superior based on their own criteria (presumably leaning toward luxury), doesn't it mean that Lexus has missed the target in the eyes of some, but hit it in the eyes of others? I'd call that a draw. How do we know whether by targeting the 5, Lexus was aiming more for the C&D editors' criteria than the Automobile editors'? We don't and they may not even think that way. My conjecture would be more that they aimed to have more sales success against the 5...i.e., to be able to steal some of its customer base. That doesn't necessarily mean beating it in every possible metric (which isn't possible anyway, as for instance there will be tradeoffs between sport and luxury)...it only means making it good enough in enough areas to be competitive with a part of their customer base.

ljflx · May 2005

Merc - I don't like that car from those pics, but who knows. Even if you had the real crystal clear pictures of the final version - a car like that has to be seen in the flesh to really be judged. The beauty of the current S is that it flows perfectly from end to end. The only thing I disliked was the old grill size on the 2000-2002 versions (too mousy for a car that big) but the re-fresh fixed that. But this - if it's the car - loses the graceful fluidity of the current car based on those pictures.

anthonyp · May 2005

Not to hurt anyone`s feelings, but I think the English(RR Bentley) German S and BMW 7 and Lexus LS are what I consider to be the luxury cars...As I mentioned from the old days our driving habits have changed so much that the titans RR Bentley do not represent what they were originally designed for..The Armage is a beautiful, unique auto, and I would think it to be a better value....Until It Broke--, or worse....Today with the Interstate we drive from point A to B, and then a bit about town...For me knowing someone is around that can come and assist me if I need it is what I consider luxury to be...For a passionate collector ( I guess where some of us came from) I would desire all of the above mentioned autos, but when I was there I couldn`t afford even one, and now I find it more difficult to justify one....What a shame...That is one of the reasons you passionate posters give me some pleasure, as you are on the same road as me Tony PS It is bad enough getting a speeding ticket....Just think how embarasssssing it would be if you were in a RR .

designman · May 2005

The fenders in the Autospies shot look like they could be masking. They're not apparent in the first series of pics Merc posted which also have different stuffing beneath the mask skin. I'll tell you one thing that is pretty clear to me though and I've said this beforeit looks like the RL. There are worse looking cars. But if it comes out with ML/Mazda fenders it will be pilloried, bank on it. It works on the ML but, heaven help us, not on a serious luxury car.

OacI also can't wait to see the 2007 Holy Grail ;-)

designman · May 2005

Come around more often. Your idyllic picnic post was a hit. We need more of that to temper this place.

;-)

merc1 · May 2005

...let's accept that Lexus named the 5 as its "target" with the GS. If some comparo editors find the 5 superior, based on their own criteria (which as you suggest would presumably lean toward sport) and others find the GS superior based on their own criteria (presumably leaning toward luxury), doesn't it mean that Lexus has missed the target in the eyes of some, but hit it in the eyes of others?

This is exactly what I've said all along. Sports sedan target missed, luxury sedan as always Lexus hits the mark. Seriously go back and read what I'd said at the beginning of this. This tradeoff is why Edmunds and Automobile put the GS in the top 3 or at the top, and it is why a publication looking for sport (R&T) ranked it last. My other point is that we know Lexus could build a luxury car, but this was according to Lexus not an E-Class fighter, but a 5-Series fighter. That to me says sport is a little higher up on the priority list this time around. Its the same thing they're doing with the new IS this fall.

This has nothing to do with sales we could go on about that for days as to why it sells and whatever else. I'm speaking purely about the cars themselves. We know its going to sell either way.

M

merc1 · May 2005

I don't like the car in those pics either at this point, but that same thing happened with the 1996 E-Class which looked truly awful in spy photos, but turned out the just the opposite. There will be day in August in which the real thing will be shown in pics and then the actual debut at the IAA in Frankfurt.

M

denaliinpa · May 2005

what is amazing about the spy pics of the upcoming S is that autobild had computerized photos more than 2 years ago that looked like the photos with the fender flares. i doubt the production version will have such a pronounced flare in the fender but i believe it will be similar to the revamped 7 series(especially the rear fender). i also believe the trunk line will not be RL like in appearance. similar but with the typical MB "luggage" look.

as for comparing 6''s and 8's. i still feel it should be apples to apples. price point is a factor but in the end most people want to the playing field level and a true winner chosen.

like stroudman my parents had a cressida when i was growing up. nice car...kind of like the current Avalon...but i never see one in my garage! for me it's teutonic all the way.

as for the hybrid's future. the costs out weigh the benefits at the moment. if you do most of your driving in city traffic then the equation is a little more positive. just because other automakers are looking into developing hybrids doesn't automatically make the hybrid case a success. only time will tell.

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