High End Luxury Cars

lexusguy · June 2005

Well, I think what Lexus is trying to prove is the old "anything they can do, we can do better". For the LS to be more attractive than the S-class would be quite a victory for them.

merc1 · June 2005

Well, I think what Lexus is trying to prove is the old "anything they can do, we can do better". For the LS to be more attractive than the S-class would be quite a victory for them.

Well if something like that happens it will be a two firsts. An attractive LS and a LS that looks better than a Mercedes.

The new S would be so much better looking without the swollen wheel arches... :sick:

M

ljflx · June 2005

Interesting how both cars look similar in that angle but when you look at the rest it's hardly a copy job.

Merc - the arches and the trunk design both have to go. The car would look great without both but that is because what is left is more of a replica of the current car. The interior looks a lot better (material wise excluding the BMW copying) and more fitting for a car like the S. Maybe they should have just focused on that interior. That, updated tech changes and improved reliability is what the car needed. Messing too much with re-styling should have been the low rung on the totem pole. Do you know the length of the LWB and SWB models?

LS - Way too early and it's only a sketch. I dislike the notchback - it's as unnecessary as the wheel arches on the S. But I like the direction its going in.

maxhonda99 · June 2005

"Well we'll see. I asked about the tranny because they seem to be following Mercedes in more than one area, not anything to do with the shifter location. "

I would hardly calling adding gears in a transmission, *copying*, which is what you are implying.

loslobos71 · June 2005

Is AWD (4MATIC) going to be on the 2007 S Class? It isnt mentioned anywhere in either Edmunds's review or automobile mag's.

jstyle · June 2005

Why did Mercedes copy the 7 series interior so blantently!!???? Look at the door panels not to mention the dash. Also the photos that show the stitching around the panels is probably the all leather/alcantera S600 top model and per MB lately the main production models like the S500 will have plastic panels and not the leather (or it's a $5000 option.)

Finally I hope someone puts the Maybach and this car side by side. It looks you are paying $200K for nothing but a better interior with the Mayback now. Even though I never liked it in the first place. Take away the tacked on wheel wells and I can't tell the difference.

Anyone seen a AMG version yet. Perhaps that will make it look better??

ljflx · June 2005

Maybe they want you to think you are getting a great value here, hence Maybach linkage. Of course that would destroy the Maybach - which from what I can tell isn't doing so well anyway. Maybe another intent is to re-design the Maybach in the near future. But you can't have a car like an $85K S-class masquerading as a $350K Maybach. Similar designs may work at the C-S class levels but to link it all the way to the penthouse level of the Maybach is sick. People aren't that foolish.

blckislandguy · June 2005

Excellent point. Different strokes, different folks. What do the lawyers say, "if you can't win on the facts, then argue on emotions?"

oac · June 2005

The most distinguishing feature to me, so far, looking at the new S pics are the hollowed out headlights. That, and the ugly wheel arches... yuck ! But overall, methinks the new S interior is actually a beautiful work of art. Well laid out and clean. Like everyone else have noted, its got some BMW copy in the dash design. Spartan.... just like the new e90. Is this a new design trend towards *simplicity* ? I would take a *normal* arched/curved dash meeting the shifter column, rather than a disconnected design as in the new S (and new Bimmer).

LS sketch is going to be close to the original with a few touches left out. What is intriguing is if Lexus were coming out with 3 models - LS460 (base), LS500, and LS600h. That would appear likely in the plan, but I am not sure if this is going to happen. Imagine an LS460 with no S430/745i to compete against. I don't suppose MB wants to put up a 6-cylinder S350 against an 8-cylinder LS460, or would they ? The LS500 will go head-on with the new S550/750iL, and the LS600h going against the S600/760iL. And of course, the Lexus GT with the V10 motor (LF-A concept) will battle it out with the SL roadster. Cannot wait for 2006 to come for the battle royale ahead for this class of luxury sedans....

merc1 · June 2005

Merc - the arches and the trunk design both have to go. The car would look great without both but that is because what is left is more of a replica of the current car. The interior looks a lot better (material wise excluding the BMW copying) and more fitting for a car like the S. Maybe they should have just focused on that interior. That, updated tech changes and improved reliability is what the car needed. Messing too much with re-styling should have been the low rung on the totem pole.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with you on the fender arches. I didn't like them on the M-Class, and still don't unless you get the 19-inch wheels, but on the S they are more than likely a mistake, unless you get the car in a darker color, which looks a lot better. An age-old trick, darker colors hide flaws and until now Mercedes' designs weren't ever color dependent. If a Mercedes doesn't look good in their signature "Brilliant Silver" we have a problem. Yeah the interior detailing is amazing. There are posts on GCF in which some say a former Audi interior designer now works for Mercedes. I don't know if that is true, but the interior detailing of the new S simply trounces the old car. I guess they took the complaints about interior quality very seriously.

The dimensions, new vs. old:

Vehicle length:
5076/5206 mm = + 33/43 mm

Vehicle width:
1871 mm = + 16 mm

Vehicle height:
1473 mm = + 29 mm

Wheelbase:
3035/3165 mm = +70/80 mm

{Source Article}

They stretched the car a bit in every which way. It will be a while before all the details are out about the AMG versions and the S450. I probably won't get to see the car in person until Jan. at the Detroit Autoshow.

M

merc1 · June 2005

I would hardly calling adding gears in a transmission, *copying*, which is what you are implying.

I didn't try to or say anything about copying. My statement was about direction of the technology in this market, that Lexus follows Mercedes there is nothing to bring up, everyone knows this.

M

rgsw · June 2005

The fender flares on the new S remind me of the Dodge Durango....

merc1 · June 2005

Of course that would destroy the Maybach - which from what I can tell isn't doing so well anyway.

I suspect the Maybach will be folded back into Mercedes-Benz, like "The Maybach by Mercedes" and/or given a totally different look when the redesign comes around. The S-Class' rear looks better than Maybach's too, imo.

M

merc1 · June 2005

Imagine an LS460 with no S430/745i to compete against. I don't suppose MB wants to put up a 6-cylinder S350 against an 8-cylinder LS460, or would they ?

Nope, the new S450 will compete with the LS460 and the 750i/Li. It will be just like before. Lexus will split the difference on power between the two V8 S-Class models, while most likely getting real close to or matching the 360hp 750i/Li. The S450 is supposed to have anywhere from 325-345hp from a 4.5 or 4.6L V8. Nobody knows for sure yet.

M

merc1 · June 2005

Anyone seen a AMG version yet. Perhaps that will make it look better??

Well this is pic floating around now. It wasn't included with the rest of the official pics so I think its a very good photoshop, because the bottom half (around the doors) is way too busy looking and looks like an existing AMG kit was just added on.

M

lexusguy · June 2005

Yeah the sideskirts are a mess there, but otherwise thats a sharp looking car.

rroyce10 · June 2005

.... Hmmm, looks kinda like the old style Infiniti M45 .......

Terry.

ljflx · June 2005

That makes the car 205" long. Wasn't the 99 exiting model 209"?. There were some reports that this would be the same size as that older car.

ljflx · June 2005

You need to go wake up the S-class board. No one has even posted the new model.pix there.

Love this quote from your post:

"If a Mercedes doesn't look good in their signature "Brilliant Silver" we have a problem."

If that doesn't show your team staus with MB, nothing ever will. By the way, I completely agree. The current S looks great in that color (incredibly so with sport trim) and it was the color I likely would have taken in 2001.

michael_mattox · June 2005

Merc:

I think it is almost undeniable...Lexus does watch as Mercedes developes new Teck..and then they test it on their customers....Next Lexus improves that Technology , makes it dependable and sells it to their customers...

ljflx · June 2005

comon guys, let's not go there again

If a luxury garment worker starts to use a different style and/or different materials and the market reacts favorably then the other competitors follow suit. It's business and it's no different with cars. Lexus just joined this club in the last 15 years. They were not looked at to be the leader of innovation. That will change in the future though (it already is in process with this whole new motor technology) as they have emerged as a highly recognized lux brand now. On the other hand they made reliability their turf and as a result that is where everyone will always expect them to lead until the day they don't, assuming that day arrives sometime in the future. As for innovation, once the first guy commits and others follow, then everyone including the first guy tries to improve what has occurred. The mistakes happen, and it has happened to MB with electronics - when you try to rush things too fast or you just do them for reasons that are not apparent or not needed (the whole I-drive stupidity). In the case of the Germans, engineering, not electronics are their forte. They were bound to stumble in this area.

sapparo · June 2005

Well electronics is engineering. Oh gawd. Pray tell if Lexus or any Japanese premium or high quality builder like Honda has to wait for the germans to develop something new in the electronics arena. (They really have NO advantage mechanically that I can see though they make you believe they do). Durability is something foreign to them as is reliability. Go ask the guy on the S board who's superduper new SL hard top was stuck half retracted and drove home embarassed like that and compare the SC coupe, the car with the lowest problems of any make who's better in quality and electonics..

Hell will freeze over and back if I were to believe that they do electonics and micro-level mechanisms better than Tokyo. Not even close! Let them continue to develop useless frivilous things and rush them to market like clockwork and they will continue to keep the service boys paychecks fat and Lexus dealer lots full of unstable electronic headaches for the new owners. Germany is not even in the same ballpark or league as Japan globally and their cars are are pretty much inferior products from VW to taxicab maker Benz.. The next Lexi LS supersedan will leave them in the dust quality, technology ,design wise and still be cheaper & better built.. Mercedes can't even copy a decent looking clock they took from the trademark Infiniti clock.

merc1 · June 2005

Yeah the sideskirts are a mess there, but otherwise thats a sharp looking car.

I agree. That picture has been floated on other sites, but it isn't official. Mercedes always waits a while after the initial introduction to show the sports package on cars like the S.

M

merc1 · June 2005

Hmmm, looks kinda like the old style Infiniti M45 .......

I don't see that, but which Q are you talking about, the 1990-1996 model or the 1997-2001 model?

M

merc1 · June 2005

That makes the car 205" long. Wasn't the 99 exiting model 209"?. There were some reports that this would be the same size as that older car.

The old W140 S-Class (1992-1999) was 205.2 inches long, but that does make the new car basically the same size, with a 7 millimeter difference in favor of the old car.

M

ljflx · June 2005

Somehow I got stuck on the old car being 209". Don't know where I got that from.

Merc - just to clarify - it's only the sport/AMG pix that is un-official, right? Everything else came from MB as I also saw a story on CNN online re this new S with one or two of the same pix you posted

I'm trying to figure out how this car will look good in AMG styling. Those wheel arches don't lend themselves to a sporty athletic look at all. Maybe the AMG guys will just get rid of them.

designman · June 2005

"Maybe the AMG guys will just get rid of them [wheel arches]."

Would be nice but it ain't happening. Major redesign with costly production ramifications. Those front arches are visually and physically integrated with too many sections.

syswei · June 2005

I'm just curious...do you find Bangle 7-butts or S fenders more offensive?

I personally don't like the fenders but don't find them so devastatingly bad that the car is ruined. In fact I think the overall look of the car is good, at least in pics.

paldi · June 2005

I'm looking for someone to manufacture replacement front fenders and rear quarterpanels. The photoshop below is indicative of the concept. Just smooth the sharp edges a little bit. Perhaps a little body shop would be willing to take the project on?

carnaught · June 2005

Side view especially lower door panels looks too much like an STS.

ljflx · June 2005

Could it be they were thinking they wanted a massive look and went with wheel arches that are more befitting of an suv? I saw a Durango on the road today and its' wheel arches reminded of the new S. Click on those second and third pix.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/dodge/durango/100407558/photogallery.html?pg_type=SUV&imgs- - rc=&tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.photo..1.Dodge*

designman · June 2005

I'm just curious...do you find Bangle 7-butts or S fenders more offensive?

Good question, but to tell you the truth I have no answer because it would mean dignifying one of them, and that is hard to do.

lexusguy · June 2005

Actually he was talking about the very short lived first generation Infiniti M, aka Nissan Gloria. I can see it a little in the rear, but otherwise not much. The Infiniti was very much a traditional "3 box" car, where as the new S has a much more sweeping shape.

merc1 · June 2005

Merc - just to clarify - it's only the sport/AMG pix that is un-official, right?

Right, its a photoshop from GCF. Designman is right about the fender arches, AMG doesn't have the budget to do something like that.

M

merc1 · June 2005

I'm just curious...do you find Bangle 7-butts or S fenders more offensive?

Well the jury is out with me about the fenders until I actually see the car in person. The Bangle butt of the 7-Series is terrible as it is on the 6-Series, but I still like the 6-Series anyway. The 7-Series I'll never get used to this time around.

M

merc1 · June 2005

Actually he was talking about the very short lived first generation Infiniti M, aka Nissan Gloria. I can see it a little in the rear, but otherwise not much. The Infiniti was very much a traditional "3 box" car, where as the new S has a much more sweeping shape.

Yeah I re-read the post, he did say M45. Well of course I don't see anything in common between it and the new S other than them both being automobiles.

M

merc1 · June 2005

There is one spy drawing/photo that came out about a year ago:

that really was right on the money. This guy usually is. Makes me think he saw the finished product beforehand.

Now a real treat. Since everyone is on those fender arches, there is a photoshop on GCF without the big fenders:

Looks very plain to me without them. The big fenders do add flair to the car, but at what cost to the overall design?

Lastly, remember that Autolies photo that they claimed was the finished product?

Well this looks to me to be the finished product, but without the fender arches. Look at the front end and the side mirrors and the grille/light relationship with an official photo:

Not the best angle, but you can see that the mirrors, grille, lights, fog lights and especially the lower fascia are the same as the Autolies pic. The Autolies pic looks to be some type of customer clinic viewing? Seem they may have had an early version of the car?

M

oac · June 2005

Let me put a placeholder here for future reference.

So far we have several pages dedicated solely to the new S. Let us hope that when the new LS or BMW or Audi or Jag comes out we should expect as vigorous and as tenous debate as we are currently doing for the S. Let no one complain that Lexus is dominating this forum when its the LS' turn. Just an FYI..... Its gonna come soon enough. And when we start, lets hope you'll all stay around for the debate and not hee-ho out of here to the other forum....

seminole_kev · June 2005

I'm sure you have your reviews already written, why not just post them now?

designman · June 2005

Oac what are you talking about? The LS sketch got attention. Even the IS and Quasimoto (ha ha) got attention here. The S is now and is getting killed on those fenders. Every car has its day in court. Do you think it will be any different with the LS? We are professional car yentas. Cmon man!

;-)

designman · June 2005

Looks very plain to me without them [S wheel arches].

Wow, not to me. That Photoshop with the five spokes in full profile looks real nice. Just tweak the scalloped headlamps to look less Infiniti-like, add a fillet to the C-column, maybe a more interesting character crease below the beltline and you have a winner. One more thing, I still dont like the pinched-cheek look above the rocker.

merc1 · June 2005

Somehow I knew you'd like that photoshop. I think that minus the huge fender arches they would have needed to do something else with the overall look of the car, but I guess it really doesn't make a difference now. I too don't like the "pinched cheek" look either, because like carnaught stated earlier it looks a lot like the STS, a car that I find at best as boring as all getout.

M

oac · June 2005

I'm sure you have your reviews already written, why not just post them now?

Still on page 3 of a very loooonnnnngggg review.... just j/k of course...

oac · June 2005

True enough ! Well... stick around my dear Designman, for the next LS prototype is going to hit the road this fall, debuting at the Tokyo Motor Show in October. Plenty to like, maybe equally plenty to dislike.... Boring or vanilla it will not be..

nvbanker · June 2005

Yes - check over in the 2007 LS-500 or LS-6006 forum for a spy sketch - Boring, it is not.......

ljflx · June 2005

And for the Japanese in general.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/26/automobiles/26AUTO.html?

nvbanker · June 2005

I used to be a big Infiniti fan, and still love the designs. I am also impressed with the Maxima design. I sold my last Infiniti this past year. I'm a little put off by Nissan's recent quality issues, and am not sure the French have the same obsession with reliability that the Japanese do, and while this article makes a strong case for the Japanese, based upon the performance of the new Titans and Armadas and QX-56s, I'm wondering just now Japanese Infiniti and Nissan are anymore, as much as European. I love the Q-45, always have. I love the looks of the M. I'm just afraid of Nissan right now.

kdshapiro · June 2005

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106175

ljflx · June 2005

Aside from KD - is anyone on the board intending to buy diesel if its available on their desired car? Me - no interest whatsoever. The only places I even find diesel fuel is on truck roadways.

seminole_kev · June 2005

In the midwest down through Texas diesel is easily available at almost any station. My last few purchases, I would have much preferred a diesel engine to the gas ones available. These newer diesels are great for the American market. Generally "we" like automatics and low-end torque so this is a great match up. When low sulfur diesel hits the market here, hopefully the manufacturers will respond. Apparently Chrysler has been very surprised with the response to their few mainstream diesel offerings, and these aren't really the "latest" in diesel engines. VW's only real hot models right now are the diesel versions.

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles