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Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra
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Comments
This is an Elantra vs. Civic forum isn't it?
I'm not the one who started the forum but will step in when it gets one sided.
Someone said that Hondas are "overpriced".
This simply isn't true when the Total Costs of Ownership are considered!
If you prefer Elantras over Civics, great!
Just don't buy one for the wrong reasons.
1. The purchase price of an Elantra and a comparably equipped Civic;
2. Typical finance charges on the difference, that is on the amount by which the purchase price of the Civic exceeds that of the Elantra;
3. Typical sales tax on that difference;
4. Typical annual ad valorum tax on that difference, adjusted for statutory depreciation;
5. Typical insurance premiums for each car;
6. Typical repair bills for each car over, say, 5 years and 10 years, of course taking account of Hyundai's much longer warranties;
7. Lost interest on the additional costs after the loan has been repaid, or where cash is paid - at, say, the average yield of a T-bill, which is currently around 4% net per year for someone in the 15% tax bracket (rich people are not agonizing over whether to buy a Civic or an Elantra, much less which might cost more over a long period of ownership).
8. Finally, all of the above can be reduced by an estimate, based upon experience to date, of the resale value of each of the cars after 5 years and 10 years - this will of course favor the Civic, as Honda has enjoyed a better reputation than Hyundai in the past, though that may well be changing.
I strongly suspect that this analysis will show that the Elantra is cheaper than the Civic after 5 years, much cheaper after 10. If it shows otherwise, then I will of course stand corrected. But it is unfair to just repeat over and over again, like a mantra, that the Civic costs less in the long run than the Elantra without revealing the actual figures demonstrating that such is the case. Please now support your claim or, in simple fairness, withdraw it.
IMO the Elantra is far and away the best buy in this class. Hyundai wasn't even on my radar screen at first, but when I saw a few positive references in the press I thought, geez, at that price it's worth taking a look.
This car has some real zip (--and my last car was the beloved, much heralded Nissan Sentra SE-R, so I have some experience with top performance in this class), it handles well, comes well-equipped, fantastic warranty... I'm not saying it's on the same level as the SE-R (not quite), but I find it tremendously satisfying to find this much car for so little money.
I have great respect for Honda and the Civic (--it's the car I thought I'd be buying this time), and I fully expect them to come up to speed (pun intended) with their new version in 2001. But in the meantime, I challenge anyone to test drive the Elantra against comparable Civic models (EX and Si excluded since they're a helluva lot more expensive than the $11,300 I paid for my Elantra) and not admit that the Hyundai absolutely blows the Civics away. It's not even close. Looks to me like Hyundai's making the right moves, becoming a real player at last.
For me, the seat initial seat position was perfect. I really didn't have to adjust anything, except tilt the steering wheel a little higher. A couple of days after getting the car, I thought I'd just fool around w/ adjusting the seat height, lumbar, and angle. See how the controls work and maybe see if I can improve upon perfect, I guess.
However I quickly learned, as you found out, that the adjustments are all independent of each other and the controls don't inspire confidence that you'll be able to replicate a previous position. So I quickly stopped.
As you say, this is not a design flaw isolated to the Elantra, but it's still something one would hope might be addressed. I'm sorry to hear your adjustments have ended up putting you in such pain and spoiling your fun. I hope that continued noodling with the controls finally lead you to seat-position nirvana.
By the way, I won't even consider the generic civic. A good car but overpriced, underpowered and boring.
My friend test drove a BMW 330 (awesome car) a few days ago. I was surprised at how loud that engine was for a 40K vehicle. Maybe I should not complain.
Granted, I don't drive this car like I used to drive my Sentra SE-R. With that one, I once got three speeding tickets in a single day traveling from Detroit to Boston --including getting flagged over and lectured by Canadian officers for doing 120mph. I'm older and I don't like living on the edge of a license suspension all the time. Grubbs, I rather like the the other possibilities you mention (Sonata and Altima), but if you don't need the additional room and degree of refinement, I think you'll be very satisfied w/ an Elantra. You'll also have a few thousand extra dollars in your pocket to brighten your mood.
How noisy is the car at 65-80 mph? Does the engine seem to "strain" at high speeds?
How reliable is the roadside assistance?
Is it worth purchasing the 5-year extension doubling the bumper-to-bumper coverage?
Since in your profile you stated your looking for a new or used car under 10k, why don't you consider a Hyundai Accent? You can easily get one for under 10 k with air/cassete player and you can fit into those tigher spots with your dreaded NYC parking U still get the Hyundai of all warranties, and a good looking subcompact car I might add. Much better then cars in that class like the metro, swift, echo . Good luck
The Accent is a nice sub-compact car, but its too small and doesnt offer as much value as the elantra, IMHO.
Boltguy
Not a slam, just a fact.
Low resale vales equal low residuals which mean high lease payments.
A day in the life of Isellhondas...
7 am - Wakes up chanting "resale, resale"
9 am - First customer at the dealership.. they are undecided. Isell whispers "resale, resale" in their ear.
11 am - Closes the deal on another overpriced, underpowered Honda. The poor customer is crying immediately after signing the paperwork. "Mr. Isell, I can't afford $350 a month!" Just remember resale he says.
12 noon - gets on Edmunds board and cuts and pastes "resale" on every topic except Honda.
4 pm - Gets in his Hyundai and drives home..
Aaah, if only life could be so good, huh Isell?
The beehive looked like it needed some more stirring :P
Boltguy
I'm looking at a elantra gls wagon....can't imagine I could go wrong with it....
Comments???
1. The purchase price of an Elantra and a
comparably equipped Civic;
2. Typical sales tax on that difference;
3. Typical annual ad valorum tax on that
difference, adjusted for statutory depreciation;
4. Typical insurance premiums for each car (of course it costs more to insure a more expensive car, as the carrier's exposure is that much higher);
5. Typical repair bills for each car over, say, 5
years and 10 years, of course taking account of
Hyundai's much longer warranties;
6. Lost interest on the additional costs after the
loan has been repaid, or where cash is paid - at,
say, the average yield of a T-bill, which is
currently around 4% net per year for someone in the 15% tax bracket (rich people are not agonizing
over whether to buy a Civic or an Elantra, much
less which might cost more over a long period of
ownership).
7. Finally, all of the above can be reduced by an
estimate, based upon experience to date, of the
resale value of each of the cars after 5 years and
10 years - this will of course favor the Civic, as
Honda has enjoyed a better reputation than Hyundai
in the past, though that may well be changing.
When you do this kind of comparative analysis, you quickly see that the cheaper price of an Elantra - $4000 cheaper here in Tucson than a comparably equipped Civic - saves money not only at the outset but all along the way: on taxes (sales taxes, annual ad valorum taxes and/or registration fees), financing fees (including interest), insurance premiums, and opportunity cost (the loss of income on the extra money). When you also add in the cost of repairing the Civic after its warranty has run out while the Elantra still has years of warranty protection, the conclusion is inescapable: the Elantra is a much cheaper car to own and maintain, over the long term as well as the short term, than the Civic. In other words, isellhondas is simply wrong as a matter of fact, not opinion. (If he still thinks a Civic is cheaper to own than an Elantra, let him give us figures. If he just keeps repeating his resale value mantra, then we know it has no more validity than most things car salesmen say.
By the way, at 8 months and 6500 miles, my Elantra GLS 5-speed is still running flawlessly - one of the best cars I have ever owned.
George,
Your empiracal data assumes a lot!
At this point it's pretty hard to quanitify total costs of ownership over a five year period.
And...your wonderful warranty does NOT cover everything...read the fine print!
Anyway...cool your jets, guys. the pot needed stirring, didn't it?
And...there is much more to a car than a LIMITED warranty!
"At this point it's pretty hard to quanitify total
costs of ownership over a five year period."
Then how can he say, as he has been saying over and over, that in the long run, eg 5 years, the Civic is cheaper to own than the Elantra due to resale value? Obviously, his claim has no factual basis at all - as he now virtually admits. But the facts, that is the figures, are actually out there, and they show that the Elantra is much cheaper to own, long term as well as short term, than the Civic. As I have noted, a comparably equipped Civic in Tucson costs $4000 more than an Elantra. When you then add initial sales tax (7%, which comes to $280 extra for the Civic), finance charges, annual taxes based on price, higher insurance premiums for the Civic, loss of income (interest, stocks, whatever) on that extra money, and a much longer warranty for the Elantra, any proportional difference in resale value after, say, 5 or 10 years, fades into insignificance. As for the Hyundai warranty being limited, does isellhondas claim that the Honda warranty is unlimited? That's not what Honda - or any other automobile manufacturer - says. Of course the Hyundai warranty is limited, as are all car warranties, but the Hyundai warranty is much longer than the Honda warranty. Comparisons of the Civic and the Elantra are surely valid, and some people may prefer one or the other for reasons satisfactory to themselves, which is all that ultimately matters. I test-drove both, and I already owned a Honda Accord (now my wife's car), and I found the Elantra manifestly superior to the Civic in all aspects that mattered to me. Someone else might differ - many do, as shown by the Civic's sales figures. But no one can say, because it is not true, that the Civic is cheaper to acquire, maintain, or own. It is that kind of claim, directly contrary to fact, which makes car salesmen so untrusted, indeed the very symbol of untrustworthiness.
Once again , I'm not the person who started this topic.
What makes ownership costs hard to predict is the uncertain value for Hyundai.
Currently at trade in time, they DO NOT bring wholesale book. They get bid for much less than that even by Hyundai dealers.
They are a VERY hard sell!!
But, I admit that factor *could* change.
As for the "high quality" product?
I also agree that the latest offerings may represent a huge imporvement over the earlier offerings that I think all of us would agree were lackluster at best.
I am NOT bashing Hyundai...Just trying to express another opinion/viewpoint.
I could very easilly modify my opinion at some point down the road.
I dont think anyone will question the great value these Hyundai's car has (george00 provides a good models to see the real value of a car). Regarding the resale, we will just have to see 3-4 years down the road. Right now I'm pretty confident I made the right purchase.
p.s: I owned a 99 Corolla and 00 Elantra.
Service count for corolla=0
Service count for elantra=0
For the base elantra you get power steering and brakes, power windows, locks, mirrors, air conditioning, lumbar support in the seats, fantastic 100k warranty, and the ability to really haggle the price. Engine has 140 hp. i got mine with standard features plus rims, premium stereo and cruise control for $10,800
The civic standard features includes power steering and brakes and a am/fm radio. no air conditioning, or power packages. base model has 106 hp. starting price of a civic is about $13,000. I am sure isellhondas will correct me if i am wrong.
The point: I am not bashing the civic. Its a reliable car. I am just putting things into perspective. The elantra is a far better deal. People buy the civic for quality. Well, with a 100k mile warranty, i rather save 6 grand and use the warranty every now and then the elantra has a bigger engine, more features such as power windows, locks and mirrors, cruise control premium stereo, rims for thousands less then the bare bones civic. How can you go wrong? You question reliability. ive had mine for 4 months now, no problems yet and even if i did, its covered under warranty.
So what do you have to say about that Isellhondas? Ask anyone in here who owns an elantra, no one has had problems with theirs. Hyundai is back and kicking the civic in the [non-permissible content removed].
From Cars.com which got its info from Intellichoice (since I am not going to pay $5 for the intellichoice data from IC)
Depreciation
00 Elantra Sedan (not listed by model) 8,231
00 Civic EX (highest depreciation) 6,956
The DX was 4K and VP and LX were 5400, 5500 resp.
This was based on estimates fro 2000-2004. Here's the official Depreciation definition Based on the assumption that you keep your vehicle for 5 years, after which time you sell it in a private party transaction (not sold to a dealer). Also assumes that the vehicle is in good condition having been previously driven an average of 14,000 miles per year, and will be driven that same number of miles per year for the next five years.
here's the links...
Hyundai
http://Reports.IntelliChoice.com/reports/sponsors/NATIONAL/frameset.asp?SPON=national&DEFSPON=CV&PROD=&REPORT=027002&P1=0&TRID=&YEAR=2000&MAKE=Hyundai&MODEL=Elantra&rv=yes
Civic
http://Reports.IntelliChoice.com/reports/sponsors/NATIONAL/frameset.asp?SPON=national&DEFSPON=CV&PROD=&REPORT=026004&P1=0&TRID=&YEAR=2000&MAKE=Honda&MODEL=Civic&rv=yes
Apples and oranges...If an item is sold cheaply there is a reason.
Want to revisit the warranty issue...?
Hyundai HAD to do something! They had a terrible reputation and went to the limited ten year warranty in a desperate attempt to restore some confidence in the car. VW did the same thing for the same reasons a couple of years ago.
The BEST warranty of all is the one you never have to use!!
And...you *pay* for that warranty. It's figured into the price of the car!
But...If you really feel that the Hyundai is such a better value, good for you! Sounds like you are happy and that's what matters.
VW? Despite its many quality problems, VW offers the shortest warranty - only 2 years - in the entire industry, a fact which kept me out of their showrooms.
As for the price of the Hyundai warranty being "figured into the price of the car!" (isellhondas' phrase, including the strange exclamation point), everything you get in a Hyundai or a Honda or a Rolls Royce, is included in the price of the car, which is known among economists as the "no free lunch" doctrine. What is relevant to this forum is that, for your money, Hyundai gives you a much better warranty than does Honda (or GM or Ford, for that matter). Anyway, the point I and other posters have been making, and which isellhondas refuses even to address with actual facts and figures, is that a Hyundai Elantra is thousands of dollars cheaper to own and maintain than a comparably equipped Honda Civic - at the outset, in 1 year, in 5 years, and in 10 years. If you prefer the Civic, and are willing to pay the additional thousands, fine. But don't let any car salesman persuade you that you'll be saving money, because you won't.
Marketing, pure and simple, and probably a smart move on their part. Some people think a long warranty is everything. Isn't it a 10 year powertrain warranty? Everyting else is 3/36?
I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
And I think VW has the same warranty except they only give a 2/24 on everything non powertrain.
Which is the stuff that usually breaks!
As for GM...Well, they make marketing decisions too. As long as sales and profits are acceptable they aren't about to take on the exposure of a longer warranty.
And I'm glad you agree with me about the price of the warranty being figured into the price of the car. Again, it's just marketing.
I can't disagree with you on the resale point because it is true. I've found out firsthand when I traded in my '97 Tiburon on a '00 Tib. I was upside down almost 2K on my new car loan. But this was my own stupidity for trading in a car that was a little less than 3 yrs. old. There's no doubt that it will take a few years before majority of the American public will figure out what we already know. We're getting substantial quality for less price. The answer to this (for now) is to keep your car for at least the duration of your loan.
As for the basic Hyundai warranty it is as follows: 5 yr. 60,000 Bumper to Bumper
5 yr. Unlimited mileage roadside assistance - this includes accidents, lockouts, dead batteries, and running out of gas.
10 yr. 100,000 mi. Powertrain
3 yr. 36,000 Paint
Since we are indeed paying for the warranty, it's a testament to Hyundai that they can still offer such outstanding value.
Your big misconception here is that you think that if something is offered for less money, then it's automatically inferior. Why haven't you figured out that it costs less to produce a car in Korea than it does in the U.S. or Japan? Plus the fact that Hyundai builds their own ships to transport the vehicles and produces their own steel, and many electronic parts too.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why an equivalent vehicle can be produced for less money under these circumstances. I hope this clears up some of your haziness.
Boltguy