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One other observation: Most buyers of Chevies, Fords, Dodges, etc. only take their cars back to the dealer for problems or maybe oil changes, whereas a lot of foreign car owners follow the recommended regular service schedule religiously at their dealership. As a result, they become accustomed to paying out hundreds of dollars every time they visit a dealer. So you talk to a Civic owner who had to pay out $500 to replace a head gasket, and to him it's routine. By contrast, the Neon owner who never sees the dealer until he needs a head gasket says it's a piece of junk because it cost him $500.
Others include the "N" body [Skylark Grand Am Calais]all built in the same factory using the same parts same transmissions and engines, but the Calais was a "used car to avoid", The Grand Am average and the Skylark about the same.I even wrote to them and their response was:"the cars are built for different markets". HUH???
I have never heard ANY FWD domestic vehicle turning a corner that did that crick crick crick sound that you hear when the CV joints are going, even old beater Citations and K cars, but plenty of Hondas Hyundais and Toyotas that do that. It's all relative really. I think the idea of the head gasket in an engine blowing 'sounds' a lot scarier, even though replacing another item might cost the same.Emotion over reason?
The posts on the so called crash results and the ones taking Consumer Reports to task for it's less than reliable reliability ratings [though I read them like they're baseball scores and have since the early 70's]are great examples of why I keep coming back to Edmund's boards : more often than not you see some real common sense and rationality rather than partisan grandstanding for one make over another.
Also remember that everyone has a horror story to tell about the worst car they ever owned and how they'll never own another; and WHERE do you think they go to tell the world??? And don't think I wouldn't do the same.
Sorry to say all the bad press I read about the Neon and the head gaskets and poor workmanship nixed it as a choice for my first new car. As I've owned Mothra, my 63 Valiant Signet for 20 years now, it would have been a logical choice.
I think I may have been a bit of a savant myself......................
People who by Civics/Carolas/Sentras/Proteges are paying 1500 - 2500 more for their cars in the first place. So money is not the reason they bought the car. People who have an extra 2500 to spend also have adequate funds to make their payments and repair what breaks during the normal course of ownership. They are gladly paying more for their cars for the perceived superior quality.
Consequently, when their car needs a 250 - 500 dollar repair its no big deal. They appear almost giddy with joy paying for unscheduled repairs so they can keep driving their beloved cars.
Neon owners arent quite like that.
They are usually lured in purchasing their cars by the low price and amazing incentives (1500 rebates and/or 0.9% interest). So they are not the most loyal customer to begin with.
You dont hear Honda owners complaining "I only bought this car because my payments had to be under $200 a month. Now, 4 years and 60,000 miles later it needs a head gasket. I just spent $300 on tires last month and I am still making payments. I just dont have the money right now. I hate this car."
How much does anybody here want to bet that the average median income of a Civic owner is higher than a Neon owner?
Do I think that Neons are a higher quality car than Civics?
NO.
But they are not as bad as some would have you believe.
Unfortunately, it seems a lot of the disgruntled Neon owners used the 1500 dollars they saved on the purchase of their Neons to buy personal computers so they could post negative comments on this board to tell us how our cars suck.
To those who about to post negative comments here - Spare us the sad stories and just get an attorney, file a class action lawsuit, and win yourselves a million bucks.
10 years later or so my teenage son asked if he could yank the motor & trans and drop in a 360 and make it a cool street machine. I decided I would probably never finish the project, so I gave him permission. Well, it got as far as pulling the engine & trans and having them hauled away. Now the car sits forlornly on four flat tires, with no hope of my ever getting it going again, as I have even less time & energy now than I did 20 years ago. The car has a solid body, with only a very small amount of rust. I'd gladly give it to someone to restore if they'd promise me a picture when it was done. I suppose, since it has no running gear, I'd consider letting it go as an excellent parts car. If you or anyone else is interested, let me know; bring a flatbed and take my old friend. (I'm in Independence, MO.)
What is that everybody drives the same car, like everybody wears the same outfit in China. Forget about the car but owners attitude makes me puke. Especially EX owners, they think they have performance car.
Edsword: I don't aggree with you about
**You dont hear Honda owners complaining "I only bought this car because my payments had to be under $200 a month. Now, 4 years and 60,000 miles later it needs a head gasket. I just spent $300 on tires last month and I am still making payments. I just dont have the money right now. I hate this car."**
They hate it but they are in denial against themselves and their family/friends. If they say "I hate this car" then they will clearly accept that they made a wrong decision by buying overpriced xyz car. Of course this make them stupid. Clearly nobody wants to look stupid in the eye of others.
This is my theory. I think majority of Honda owners are in this stage. By bashing other cars they are getting relief and reaching internal peace.
They don't even have civil tolerance to listen what others say. Oh boy when I sampled out couple US brands to compare Japaneese vs US to prove my point, they replied to me that that forum is designated for Civic owners about Civic problems.
There could be another theory "Jelousy". They might get mad when they see other cars are performing well despite their sticker prices.
Personaly, I would not change our Neon to Civic and justify $3500 price difference.
Snowman: don't know if you ever saw the ad for some mid size four door in the mid 80s or early 90s. While the announcer kept reading off the features of the new and improved [Mitsubishi Galant?]the woman in the foreground kept saying: "I'm getting an Accord", "I'm getting an Accord"........you may be on to something.But then, I can't say. I felt the same way about GM and Chevrolet when I was growing up. And what do I have parked in my garage? A Chevrolet!!!
It's funny people think nothing these days of regularly shelling out 300 to 500 to have a timing belt changed and a water pump replacement every 60,000 to 80,000 miles and call it regular maintenance.To me that isn't something you'd call high tech, especially if it has the same potential to leave you stranded that a blown head gasket does.
Perception again I guess or a different perspective.
If this is true, are the two cars going to have different body styles or will it simply be a case of different badges?
Whether the bodies will differ is something only DaimlerChrysler's engineers can tell you; my guess would be yes, they'll be stylistically different, just like the Eclipse is different from the Avenger (now Stratus Coupe) and Sebring coupe, though the models are all built on the same chassis (the Mitsubishi Galant).
What irritates me are the relatively few who post moronic comments about how their car broke and they hate Chrysler and we better by something else before our cars brake too.
Give me a brake!
The last time I checked, Stratus sedans far outsell Galant sedans and likewise for the Neon and Mirage. Mitsubishi builds nice cars, but they just dont do much for me.
So the only cars Dodge and Chrysler will design and build are the Intrepid, Concord, and 300m full size cars? Perhaps they can get Mercedes to whip some full size cars for them so they be freed up to do other things instead of getting bogged down in those pesky details of trying to build a better car.
Is it safe to say that under their new Management team, Chrysler is just giving up the car market?
I have news for Chrysler management, the Minivans and trucks are about to get ultra competetive and they cant depend on those cash cows anymore.
The yankee can do spirit that pushed car designs from the '88 K-car and Omni to the industry leading designs of 2000 appears to be dead.
They still havent hit bottom yet.
They have some pictures (no cars yet) that are shown to some consumer groups for testing.
She sent me one of the pict. The car would be a possible replacement for the Neon, based on a Lancer hatchback.
If you are interested, it's at:
http://www.thehollywoodextra.com
Just scroll down the page to my link, in red letters. ( it's my roommate's site)
Every American make used to trounce the competition on this one because even the most reliable foreign makes tend to be more expensive to maintain than the least reliable of the American lot. E.g., an ’83 Ford Escort might have been in the shop five times as often as an ’83 BMW 325, but it was still a cheaper car to operate as the parts were so dang inexpensive. Apparently, CR didn’t consider this info valuable to its readers...
I do think body integrity is a helpful rating though. Nothing is more annoying than a car full of cheap plastic parts that tend to rattle around and fatigue - ultimately breaking off in your hand just to spite you. Perhaps if you ever owned a Pontiac, you would share this feeling.
The reliability of major components is important to me too, but the cost of fixing them if they fail is something everyone should remember to consider if they’re in for the long haul. At ~$1500 for a rebuilt one (installed), I can replace the Ultradrive transmission in my old ’91 Chrysler two times over before I exceed the cost incurred to rebuild the tranny in my sister’s ’93 Mitsubishi Diamante once.
I would love a new VW Golf TDI, but the Audi-like maintenance costs quickly calm that fire. Not only are the new Neons pretty reliable (new does not mean '95 or '96 for those of you who are chronologically challenged), they are some of the least expensive vehicles on the road to maintain (not to mention purchase).
BTW, GM drastically improved its 350 diesel by 1982. My uncle bought several big post '82 Oldsmobiles with this engine throughout the 80's and encountered none of the bearing problems people were having with the 79-81. He bought them dirt cheap and managed to break 200k with each of them (though they were highway miles). It's unfortunate GM was in such a rush to bring the engine to market (using consumers as test subjects) - perhaps we'd be driving American made diesels today if they hadn't screwed it up.
I drove a friend's 1996 Neon Expresso last week for a little bit. The first generation definitely makes the new Neon feel like a luxury car. I kinda like the tossable nature of the first Neon better though. And even though the new gen. uses the same engine, it does feel more powerful. Not too bad for the money.
I like the Neon (my roommate has a 2000), but the Protege is alot roomier inside. You can visually see it with the 2 cars side by side, and feel it when sitting inside of them as well. The Focus is pretty roomy too, but some people say the seat comfort sucks. As for the Prizm, it's the smallest of the bunch and very cramped IMO.
As far as reliability, the nod would go to the Prizm (aka Toyota Corolla). If it's a serious concern, leading her away from the Focus might be a wise idea. It was intoduced globally last year and Ford is still working out teething problems on this puppy.
As far as Chrysler transmissions are concerned, unless she's considering a used '89 Dodge Dynasty, she shouldn't be too worried. Chrysler had a lot of problems with that PARTICULAR transmission (a completely different unit than the one it installs in the Neon) a decade ago.
The best thing for her to do is drive all of them and then make a personal decision. On paper, every small car seems about the same, but they do have distinct personalities. After she looks at all three, she'll know what's right for her.
Personally, I think the new Neon (I never did like the previous version) is the best small car deal out there (which is why I constantly post to this board).
It has the nicest small car interior (VW's notwithstanding), the roomiest back seat (it's Buick-open back there), the best factory sound system (a Chrysler staple) and the jazziest exterior styling (a personal judgement) all at a very reasonable cost.
BTW, if she goes the Neon route, don't let the dealer pressure her into making an abrupt decision because "the rebate offer is about to expire." It hasn't been lower than $1000 for the last four years and as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, it will be extended once again.
If it is the latter, I would wait until Dodge releases the four speed Neon before making the choice. I suspect there will be quite a difference in the driving feel between the three speed automatic Neon and the four speed Neon.
To compare a three speed Neon with a four speed car of another make would not be oranges to oranges and your mother would be doing herself a disservice, potentially.
If she wants to know about passenger room, she needs to take the three largest people that are likely to ride with her and go for test drives. I say three and not four because the salesman might go along on some of these test drives. And if the salesman does not go along on the test drive, she should still make her friends ride in the back seat.
Hope these suggestions help.
If you read the fine print in any rust warranty you will notice that it only covers you against rust-through corrosion. I.e., surface rust doesn't count - there has to be a hole in the sheet metal. This isn't just a Chrysler policy either.
I hate to defend auto manufacturers, but this policy is quite reasonable. It's virtually impossible to find a six year old car here in the Minneapolis area that does not have some surface rust (one can usually locate at LEAST a little on the bottom-inside of the door near the drain holes where salt "hangs out" for the winter and proceeds to rot the car from the inside out). Auto manufacturers can make a car more resistant to rust, but they can't make it rust proof. Preventing auto rust is ultimately an owner/maintenance issue.
I like the cab forward look especially the Neon and I am really saddened by the news.
http://www.lemonaidcars.com
There are many, many Dodge owners complaining about paint peeling problems. Some have gotten their car repainted at no cost -- even if their warranty is expired. Seems Dodge used a cheap paint from '95-'98 that has a tendency to peel.
I'm currently in a battle with Chrysler over the second blown headgasket on my '96 Neon. That Web site has been very helpful. The gasket blew in '98 and was repaired under warranty. It blew again a month ago and I had to pay for it. Lots of people are getting them replaced for free or for $100 deductible. I expect the same treatment.
If you are thinking of buying a Chrysler product, I highly reccomend that you don't. Their products are poorly manufactured and their customer service is very shabby. I'll never buy a Chrysler product again.
Perhaps something you might consider if you are only interested in an automatic transmission... factory repurchased (i.e., rental return) 2000 Dodge Neons in my area (Minneapolis, MN) are currently being listed in the paper for $9995 with 15-20k miles on them. I assume they are comparable to other parts of the country in price. This would be a far wiser choice if reliability is a concern to you.
Likewise, don't automatically assume that all cars wearing a Japanese nameplate are more reliable than other makes. Mitsubishis, Isuzus, Mazdas and Suzukis are not Toyotas or Hondas - which, unfortunately, tend to be a little bland (particularly the Yota). I got a new Isuzu when I went to college and can attest to the surveys. It was a blast to drive but had quite a bit of "down time".
The Protege ES is "the other fun to drive compact", but it's relatively expensive for the class, and the highway mileage is worse than a Chevy Impala (the LX gets better mileage, but is less enjoyable to drive). Unless you're of a shorter stature, you might find the Protege a tight fit for leg room too.
Finally, if you're in the market for a small used car at a firesale price, whatever you do, don't fall for a Kia - even if the dealer is selling them for half-off and throwing in free mudflaps. God has a way of punishing the naive ones, if you know what I mean...
While I am here, I will be honest. I have been having my fair share of trouble with my 2001. I had a 1999 before, and it was great. Not sure what the problem is, but a couple people in Edmund's Town Hall Protege sedan forum have been having some problems. You might wanna wait until the 2002 models come out before considering the Protege again.
All this said, I don't expect everyone to have the same pleasant experiences I have had with my Neons. But go to any of these forums, and you will read the same complaints from owners about their Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, Mazdas, and VWs.
And whoever suggested going to Neon.org a few posts back gave all of you good advice. You will find everything you need/want to know about these cars. That site will even tell you how to get on the Neon owners list at Neon@iastate.edu where you can learn and discuss even more.
Sorry for what seems to be a rant and long post...
officeroz
I'm commenting on the leg room in the back seat of both the Neon and the Protege when the front seats are set in a comfortable position. When I adjusted the front seat in the Protege I was looking at and immediately got in the seat behind it I found it to be substantially tighter than that of the Neon. As far as I can tell that's about half due to the "cab-forward" design, half due to the back seat in the Neon being lower. It's definitely noticeable to me, however. If you own a 99 or 2000 Protege, sit in the back without moving the front forward (if you can get in!) and I think you'll probably agree.
Of course, for a single driver or a small family, it's a non-issue.
I'm not "knocking" the Protege - I do think it's a very nice little car. My 4 fave small cars are (in this order): the VW Golf, the Neon, the Protege and the Sentra. And although some might find it shocking (it certainly doesn't correlate with the stereotypes of some in here), the 2000 Dodge Neon was rated the highest among these four for problems encountered during the first 90 days of ownership (a study designed to measure the number of factory defects) by JD Power.
I try not to offend others whose tastes may differ from my own. Unless, of course, they own Toyota Echoes. Although I used to think the unique tastes of others were something to be respected and embraced, these people really need to be hauled in by the fashion police. These cars are so indescribably ugly, I find their presence on the road both distracting and dangerous to surrounding traffic.
Officeroz:
Considering how many Neons were sold in 1995, the number of vocal disgruntled owners in here doesn't seem too extraordinary to me. These cars have now been on the road for more than 6 years. The people complaining about these vehicles and seeking blood from Chrysler either got the real lemons (Chrysler does make them on occasion) or are just difficult people to satisfy (nature makes plenty of these).
Some people just aren't happy unless they can find something to complain about.
If you REALLY want to see some nasty posts, go to one of the Kia boards a few years from now.
Honestly, I am surprised I don't see more complaints about Neons in here. There are a ton of the old ones on the road in my area.
On a different note, I would like to say that I can't figure out why so many people doing the one-person commute are buying the big 4x4 passenger busses today. There are a ton of little nice cars out there - literally something for everyone! For those without brand loyalty, the options are mind-boggling.
Oh, and has anyone else here seen the 2002 Mini Cooper? This has to been the best looking small car ever produced. It is GORGEOUS!!! Too bad it's going to be a low volume toy for rich old bald guys trying to pick up collegiate women. Oh well...perhaps I should shut up now...
I really took a hard look at the Neon, but safety and reliabiliyt are big issues with me so I went with the Echo.
I pull an enclosed trailer to competiton events, (not for the Neon, but for my C Prepared 65 GT 350 look-a-like Mustang)and found the 'burban great for towing compared to the Grand Cherokee I had owned previously. So, I have changed my mind regarding quality on (some) GM offerings. My spouses' previous car was a Toyota Camry, an excellent car, but boring...The Regal GS with it's stiffer suspension and supercharged 3.8 V6 is a much livlier car, has lots of torque and HP, and even though it's mundane styling turns a lot of folks off, it's a blast to drive in "spirited driving" mode.
As for the Echo, it's kinda grown on me as small cars go, but the gawd-awful looks of the Aztec, and overdone Isuzu SUV that Joe Isuzu is hawking, will never grow on me! Sorry if I offended anyone who owns either of these...
officeroz
I went along with my parents when they picked up their 2001 Olds Intrigue from the local GM dealer this past February and I started talking to one of the guys I knew there about the Aztek (they had three on the lot). He told me they only time they'd been moved in the past two months was for plowing. Well, I stopped through again last week and the SAME three Azteks were still there! My God, at this rate they'll still be "closing-out" the '01 Azteks in '05.
I've always had a love for Oldsmobiles (when I was a kid, the cool-person's car was a Cutlass Supreme). I have serious reservations of purchasing a GM car in the near future though.
What kind of company cancels the devision "most likely to succeed" in the future (Oldsmobile) and then pours millions into marketing what is obviously the most undesirable vehicle on the planet (the Aztek) during the most popular show in States (Survivor)?
The management at GM is so ignorant, so oblivious, they honesty thought the reason this vehicle wasn't selling was because no one had seen it. These people couldn't BUY a clue if Kmart had 'em on blue light special!
GM is in serious trouble, IMO. The current management has only been trained in methods of losing market share and it seems to be self-perpetuating.
I used to clip them out of magazines for my Ad and Promotions class in college. Everybody loved the concept: a human metaphor for the car with a smiley face. It wasn't just a car, it was your happy, scrappy little friend!
I haven't seen a Neon TV ad here for nearly a year! Apparently, Chrysler figures the new ones sell themselves...
Does anyone know what changes Chrysler is making for the 2002 model year other than the 4-spd auto yet? I have this awful feeling they're going to swap the standard ES 5-spoke wheelcovers with an uglier design to provide an incentive for purchasing the alloys. On that note, does anyone else here find the standard ES wheelcovers better LOOKING than the upgraded ones (I realize the alloys are larger and provide slightly better grip)?
Also, does anyone know yet if the cinnamon color is going to hang on for the 2002 year? I fear the introduction of the new almond color means the cinnamon goes down in the history books.
Later!
My ex-roommate (he moved out Saturday, so no more Neon) has a 2000 Neon with the alloy wheels. I told him he should have gotten the car with the 4-disc in-dash CD changer rather than the wheels, because the money would have been better spent.
You might - MIGHT - be able to get a better deal on an aftermarket changer, but it isn't going to fit in that little hole in the dash like the factory unit does. And the only thing more annoying than constantly changing CD's into and out of the head unit is popping the trunk and shuffling handfuls of jewel cases while standing behind the car.
The factory disc changer and the power funroof are must-have options IMO. I don't see the need for aluminum wheels unless you find them more attractive than the wheelcovers on the steel wheels. The other option that doesn't turn my crank is the leather seating.
It amazes me how many people order leather for car interiors nowadays (they aren't living rooms you know). I do think it looks better than cloth when the vehicle is NEW, but it invariably cracks and gets that shiny look after it soaks up enough UV radiation and butt sweat. And few things in life are more unpleasant than sitting on ice-cold leather on a dark winter mornings. Give me velour any day of the week.
This board is so silent it's eerie.
Anyone see a 2002 Neon in the flesh yet? I want to know what's changing.