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Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable Sedans Pre-2008
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Comments
Or, to put it another way, I could buy 4 '96 Taurus wagons, and if one is still running in 2007 I'll be ahead.
There is also the issue of looks. Obviously, this has nothing to do with more important attributes of a car, but I just cannot abide by the exterior styling of the current Camry. I know this is illogical(I am generally a logical person, being an engineer) but I cannot help it in this case. The rear end is too wide looking, the trunk lid too flat on the trailing edge, and the belt line too high. The low hanging exhaust pipe I cannot abide, it looks like a design error/afterthought. The pseudo "fastback" rear roof line leaves me cold and cuts into the fore aft accessibility to the trunk.
I cannot comment on the new Accord, as I have yet to see one on the street and it is hard to judge pictures. They certainly haven't sold many in the Milwaukee area to date. I've seen more Hummer H2's!
VW Jetta and Passat do look nice, however. Nissan Altima is not bad except for the boy racer tail lights. Impala is marginally acceptable, as is Grand Prix now that they are dropping some of the cladding. Buick is OK in a classic understated sense, but has been around too long.
From the GM product line, the Intrigue had the best styling, but it is now gone.
I think the current Taurus styling is quite classy and well integrated. The only thing I might do different if I was designing it is some minor mods to the C pillar shape (the doors and side glass carried over from the last generation), but it is by no means ugly. The previous generation Taurus, while innovative, proved just a little too ovoid, and I was glad to see the 2000 restyling come along.
My neighbor has an Accord, a 2000 or 2001, and the transmission went in the Fall at 30K. Covered under warrenty but she was stranded by it. Also, a week or two back said her heater died -- not sure what caused that, might have only been a thermostat, but pretty nasty when you live in New England and it's snowed for 12 of the past 16 days.
Now I'm sure that others can tell horror stories of S/T's, but just sort of by the seat of my pants, I feel I'm still in the running with my Sable. I'm sure I'll have some problems with it down the road, but perhaps no worse than what other car owners have experienced, and at a minimum I'm saving a few hundred on basic maintenance.
Duratec has actually two chains (because has double cams over each 3 cylinders). You can see that chain if you remove oil filler cap.
Still arguing about cars I see. Well let's see if I can create a stir by adding one to the mix. Anybody checked out a Hyundai lately? Look out car industry - Hyundai's getting better and better each year - and for THOUSANDS less than domestic or other imports. After all, the trick is to get the most for the least, isn't it?
By the way, I am a Sable owner, but while having my oil changed at a dealership the other day, I strolled the Ford dealer's lot and glanced at the Hyundai's he also sells. Based on the price tags, I was quite impressed ! So much so, I went into the showroom to find out what was wrong with these cars. Sorry, again I was impressed. They're well built cars - especially the top end models. I was particularly attracted to the mini SUV Santa Fe. What a long list of standard features in the basic model, culminating to "everything" in the LX version. And for a city/highway driver like me, the fact that the Santa Fe is mounted on a Sonata chassis makes it even more attractive since the ride is more car-like than truck-like. Edmunds says the 177 HP V-6 is underpowered. Haven't driven one yet, but at only 23 HP less than my Sable, how underpowered could this 3600 lbs vehicle be?
Edmunds also doesn't like the body styling. To each his own. I like it because it doesn't have the "boxy" features like other SUV's. Edmunds DID like the it's value, however. Who wouldn't?
Here's some other features to nibble on. How about that warranty? 5years or 60K bumper to bumper, and 10years or 100K on the drivetrain? Who compares with that? And when you're in for service, Hyandai believes you should have a loaner car of equal value. So what do they do? Well they provide the dealer with factory fresh cars that are designated as "Factory Loaner", meaning they're not for sale - period. Saw the loaners, and they say exactly that. So, if your new Santa Fe goes in the shop, you get a new Santa Fe to drive until yours is done.
And all for THOUSANDS LESS !! Tempting? I'm going to drive one, and if that 177 HP is O.K., I'll have bought that second car I've wanted.
O.K., let's have the cons, but they better be good. Convince me to spend thousands of dollars more on a vehicle that will be driven less than 10K per year.
I wouldn't put much stock in Edmunds reviews since the purpose of this site is to sell advertising (hate those pop up ads) and the quality of any content is purely accidental!!
badgerfan: don't happen to agree with some of your points this time. i did notice the way the exhaust pipe hangs low on the camry though. it does look strange. something i may have never noticed if i didn't read about it here. what checked this car off my list when i first saw it was the design of the gauge cluster.
The rental Taurus I had in 2001 I found to be a really good car as well.
What Taurus lacks right now is some market credibility. Folks know the car has been basically the same since 96. They need to generate a buzz and build some brand equity in creative ways. Ford ought to drop the Vulcan engine....make the Duratec 200hp motor standard and develop a higher output version like they did with the Contour....the same motor, just add some free flow intake tricks and timing mods, etc. Pump it up and offer it as optional at about 240hp. I think if then they upgraded the interior (nicer leather and a more driver oriented dash) and some performance options or models......some special editions, then they would be in business again. keep the good prices.
It wouldn't hurt to try to get some sharper definition in the character lines of the car.....replace the fenders and door skins with a crisper looking design, that can't be too hard.
I keep wishing they'd bring back my v8 pumped up to 275hp in the current body with a manual tranny and other goodies, but that ain't gonna happen i bet. I'd settle for a Taurus 'SVT' with a pumped up Duratec v6 of about 230-240 hp and a 6 speed. Tart up the interior with nice leather but lay off the gadgets and keep the price low, under 25g.....sign me up.
I doubt if they have the manufacturing capacity to insert Duratecs into every Taurus/Sable.
Duratec is kind of modern 6 cylinder, high revving engine. Not much people need so much power or ready to pay for it.
Believe me Mazda knows how to make engines. Try Duratec with Mazda developed variable cam head in Mazda6.
I agree the Camry and Accord base 4 cylinder engines perform smoother and with better mileage than the base Taurus Vulcan V-6.
The acceleration numbers 0-60 for the 03 Accord are pretty impressive for the four and the V-6 also has impressive 0-60 times, with impressive mileage numbers.
It also must be noted for every day driving these absolute 0-60 numbers are nearly meaningless, and the Duratech Taurus is more than adequate. Much of the horsepower race going on today between Nissan Altima and Honda Accord is in the upper RPM ranges that most people rarely attain in everyday driving.
No doubt, in recent years, Ford has been concentrating most of their US development efforts on trucks and SUV's. I would expect you eventually will see more competitiveness in cars now that Bill Ford is straightening out the mess left by Nasser. Note, for instance, Focus all along has been rated at the top of the heap by most reviewers. The recalls and reliability for the first two model years has been the only rap on Focus. From a design and performance standpoint, Focus does show that Ford can design state of the art cars.
Remember when Ford introduced Taurus in the mid 80's, it was pretty much a state of the art vehicle. It can happen again. Look what strides Nissan has made in a few short years when the leadership from the top was straightened out.
And yes, be sure to make the Taurus/Sable smaller. I've wanted a reason to switch on my next vehicle, and now you've provided it. Without the Duratec and the roominess of the present body, I'd still be driving a Grand Marquis.
But plans are always changing, I am sure only about 500 and cheap new Taurus.
Our other "car" is a short wheel base 3.3L V-6 '96 Caravan, and it is really hard to beat it
for overland cruising. Smooth, quiet, panoramic view, comfortable upright seats. I would take the Caravan any day over a Grand Marquis for freeway long distance trips.
Finally saw an 03 Accord sedan this morning on my drive to work. My first reaction from a styling standpoint: Nothing particularly objectionable, but nothing particularly exciting either. Looks better live than in pictures. I think it has Camry beat in the styling department. Taurus, in my opinion has them both beat on exterior styling.
I like the design of the new Accord. Honda makes a nice 4 cylinder and that engine is more than sufficient for everyday driving. I think the same can be said for the 4 installed in the Camry.
What are the torque and horsepower #s for the proposed 2.4 that will be installed in future Taurueses?
Taurus: 375,219
Sable: 106,633
Total: 481,852
Camry Sedan US: 311,610
Camry Solara: 42,044 (Canada)
Total: 353,654
Honda Accord US 336,231
Honda Accord (Mexico) 42,404
Total (includes Coupes) 378,635
I do not know how many Accords and Camrys still come from overseas.
Still, Taurus+Sable totals are not too shabby!
http://www.bonforums.com/powertrain/engine_newsmallengines.htm
I've always avoided small engine cars that used the descriptions, "peppy", or "spunky" or otherwise. To me that means you're surprised with what you get, but in reality, it isn't really enough when your foot makes the call for that raw horsepower.
Even the Duratec I have doesn't get it in higher speed situations. Having owned bigger block V-8's, there's no comparison when you lay down the hammer at 60 MPH to get by a vehicle quickly. Unless of course you have a very light vehicle, which means you need a rubdown after 4-6 hours of constant driving.
Actually, the current V-6's perform quite comparable to many of the old V-8's of the 70's and early 80's. More power per cubic inch and less vehicle weight.
Even the Vulcan, when it came out was very good compared to most of what was out there. I was pleasantly surprised at the performance of the Vulcan in my 90 Taurus, after having driven a Chevy Celebrity with the old "Iron Duke" 2.5 Litre 4. The Taurus ran rings around the Celebrity and had more room and better mileage.
this is simply not true of the new accords and camrys. just over 2000 rpms doesn't sound buzzy to me. you'll have to go over 80 mph to get any kind buzziness. that said, if i get an accord it's going to be with the v6.
I guess it is a matter of personal taste. While you state "it is simply not true" I feel it is. Please state where you found a 2000 rpm estimate at 80 mph on any Accord or Camry ever made? To run at 2000 rpm on a 4 cylinder engine you would need a pretty high final gear ratio that I doubt you will find in any automatic transmission. In general 6 cylinder engines are smoother than 4 cylinders and 8's are smoother than 6's. You do not appear to be a Ford supporter so do you honestly think that Ford will invest enough money and manpower in the design of a 4 cylinder engine that will rival Honda or Toyota and still power the next generation Taurus? I'm a Ford supporter and I don't believe they will. It is my humble opinion that the Duratec should be made the standard engine and a tweeked version with variable valve timing the upgrade. To me a 4 cylinder in the next generation Taurus is a step backward that is sure to be exploited by other car makers. If we here on this board notice Honda offering a 240 hp V6 Accord and Nissan offering up a 255 hp V6 Maxima and Altima then Ford must surely know that keeping the 200 hp Duratec as the "upgraded" powerplant and reverting back to a 4 cylinder "base" engine will do nothing to hold or reclaim market shares for this car class.
Now any German and Japanese 4 cylinder is smoother and is MORE EFFECTIVE than cheap American V6 like Vulcan. Technology is moving on, it is already 21 century man. What makes the sence continue to use engines from 60s and loose market share every year.
And Ford already designed the line of modern I4s in cooperation with Mazda. And they are going to use flexible platforms and manufacturing like Honda. Most of the people don't care about I4 or V6 under the hood. They are happily buying 4 cylinder cars from Japanese and Germans in ever increasing numbers.
Now I got to disagree with you on the Vulcan being cheap and ineffective. For most people and the day to day driving they do the engine is fine. It has modern pollution controls, fuel injection, distributorless ignition etc. Just because it has push rods doesn't make it a dinosuar. Is the Duratec a better engine and more modern design? absolutely.
One other thing. I keep seeing references that there were significant changes with the 2k Taurus. Don't think much changed besides styling and a bump in power for the Vulcan and the loss of dual exhaust for the Duratec. Car and Driver barely reviewed it. Way too early to talk about reliability improving; hasn't been out long enought. Everyone that I know or spoken to has had good luck with 96s on.
It is a little less easy to figure out what Ford wants for a Duratec now as they have rejuggled the option lists and you cannot break out the price of the Duratec alone.
I did just recently go through the numbers for buying an equivalent '03 SES, and with the current $3000 rebates, it appeared to me I could buy a nearly equivalent(actually slightly better equipped) '03 SES with Duratec for about $1000-$1400 less than I paid 2-1/2 years ago! This would buy it for probably less than $17K. Certainly an attractive price.
I thought I read that Duratec engines make up approximately 15% of Taurus sales. So how fast could Ford convert manufacturing to install that engine in all Tauruses? Is there that much of a demand for that engine, given the average consumer has no idea what he/she is buying.
Whenever you talk about why certain engines are standard and other's optional, you also have to understand manufacturing considerations. For example, several times during its lifetime, Ford has had 6 cyl Mustang specials because the builds were going too far to the V/8 side and they were running out of production capacity.
2004 Mercury Sable: Recent indications are that the Sable will separate from its Taurus fraternal twin, instead evolving from the new Mondeo or the Mazda 6. Either choice offers a more dynamic vehicle available in multiple body styles.
2005 Ford Taurus: Taurus goes its own way without sibling Mercury Sable. Next-generation platform may also spawn other vehicle types, such as sport wagon and sport/ute. And the well-regarded Volvo S80 may be the platform donor.
FORD FUTURE PRODUCTS
Ford's task: Revive products, pinch pennies
By Mary Connelly
Automotive News / August 04, 2002
Ford Five Hundred
The five-passenger Ford Five Hundred, with optional awd, is scheduled for the 2005 model year.
The Five Hundred is a premium sedan scheduled for the 2005 model year.
The car will be derived from the new platform underpinning the 2005 Ford CrossTrainer, a vehicle described as a cross between a sedan and a sport-utility. The car will feature styling and engineering features not seen before in a large Ford sedan. All-wheel-drive, for example, will be optional, and the interior will be trimmed with wood and brushed aluminum.
A six-speed automatic and a continuously variable transmission will be offered. Ford's next-generation 3.0-liter Duratec V-6 will be standard.
The five-passenger Five Hundred will be slightly smaller than a Chevrolet Impala but is expected to have more interior room. Ford will employ a high package design, creating a roomier, taller passenger compartment than the current Ford Taurus, for example.
Ford Taurus, Mercury Sable
The Taurus and Sable are likely to remain fairly untouched through the 2005 model year. Beyond that, Ford's mid-sized strategy remains up in the air.
One scenario moves Taurus to the Mazda 6 platform. Another keeps the model on the existing Taurus platform, primarily as a fleet vehicle. A third has the car based on the Ford Mondeo, which is sold in Europe.
All three scenarios are aimed at the 2006 model year, sources say.
The Sable will be replaced in the 2006 model year when it moves from its existing platform.
The company has said Mercury will rely on existing platforms from other Ford Motor Co. brands. But what underpinnings the replacement model will use and what type of sedan Mercury will put into the mid-sized segment are not clear.
One scenario draws a Mercury sport wagon off the Ford CrossTrainer and Ford Five Hundred mid-sized platform. Another has Mercury choosing a smaller, "high-package" sedan based on the Mazda 6 platform.
Automotive News reported this week that Mercury will get versions of both the Ford 500 and the Mazda 6.
The Sable will be around through 2006.
what's the point then?
The Taurus now is a nice size. But I could see a car line in addition to that that is as big as say, a Deville in interior space.
I say make the current Duratec standard, and make a VVT version optional. If the next redesign had a 4 cylinder as standard thats ok. The current car is long in the tooth so they have to sell it on features and value now.
Also, invest in improving the handling, suspension, a new interior, some styling tweaks.....that ought to keep the Taurus selling ok till a major redesign.
The point to Ford is, invest SOMETHING in improving the product. HOW BOUT an SVT Taurus for all us SHO owners looking to buy a performance Taurus again?????? Stick too, please......if you did it for the Focus you can do it for the Taurus, Getrag makes many manual trannies just sitting on the shelf.
I don't need YAW control or NAVIGATION. Just a Taurus, with a high hp hot rod motor, a stick, grippy seats, grippy tires, and sunroof and really good sound system. Leather too.
If Ford is going to keep the current edition around until 2005 that means this style will be in production since the 1996 model year. That is a long time for any model and it doesn't help the Taurus.
I believe the 3.8 GM motor was developed in the early 60's with a major revision in the late 80's. So the Vulcan isn't that old.
It indeed was new in 1985 for the new Taurus and Sable.
The Vulcan may be lower in HP than some engines, but it has decent low-end torque, something four cylinders (especially multi-valve 4s) do not usually have. The Vulcan has around 170-180 pound-feet, which is decent and comparable to many competitors. Car ads always trumpet HP, but they never mention torque. I'd much rather know what the torque output is, and at what RPM it's delivered. HP is needed to maintain speed/overcome wind resistance. Torque's what gets the car moving. If I get torque when I mash the gas (i.e., at fairly low engine speeds), I'm much happier than if I have to rev the spit out of an engine to get power. The rush of acceleration (and the haze of tire smoke...:-) you get out of a big block V8 is from its torque.
(Note that the Vulcan and 4.0 are not related--the 4.0 is a German design that is actually older than the Vulcan. Remember the Capri--not the Mustang-based car, the one from '70-'76. That car's 2.8 L V6 is the basis for the later 2.9 and 4.0 OHV Ranger/Bronco II/Explorer engines, and also the 4.0 SOHC).
As for the GM 3.8, it's ancient. I think it's the oldest engine design still out there still using the same displacement and basic layout (pushrod, etc.). This assumes that Chrysler has finally ended production on the 318 V8, which dates to 1963 as a 273 V8 and itself began in '66--though a 318 with a thicker block casting and different heads existed back as far as 1959).
The GM 231/3.8 was an odd-fire V6 from its start in the early 1960s (Buick Special and Skylark), and they used it for a few years.
By 1966 or so, design and tooling was sold to Jeep when Jeep was part of Kaiser (prior to AMC). When AMC bought Jeep in 1970, they began switching to AMC straight-sixes. GM wanted the V6 back during the fuel crisis, and AMC needed the money. So, when GM's new intermediate cars came out in 1976, the 231/3.8 was back as an even-fire engine. Then it was re-done in the late 1980s, as stated above, with the switch to modern fuel injection. They've kept tweaking it. Proves it is a basically sound design. It too has decent torque at lower RPMs.
Anyway, that ends today's lesson. Thank you for attending... :-)
Yes, Accord and Camry are good cars, though Camry has slipped lately in the CR ratings, and the jury is still out as to whether the newest generation Accord is up to their historical quality levels. But to get their V-6 versions, they will tend to push you up to at about $23K or more (negotiated price, not list). A Taurus with Duratec will run you an actual negotiated price of about $17-$18K. That is a very significant difference. If you look at the overall package of price vs features, for a family sedan Taurus is hard to beat, and I believe the quality is nearly a wash these days.
You can check the Ford web site, and if I remember right, they have a section listing factory incentives once you get into the Taurus area. The Edmunds area for rebates, I have found does not usually keep up with what is really available, as things change too often.
If history is any indicator I'm going to bet that the majority of Tauruses will be sold with the Vulcan. Ford is still using the 3.8 and look at the head gasket problems with that engine.