Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable Sedans Pre-2008

danielj6 · February 2003

I am not a Ford die hard. I try to buy value and get the best for my money. I have no loyalties to any car maker. But considering the economy, vehicle price, etc. I have to forgo Toyota's so called refinement and reliability for reality.

I am not at all displeased with my Mercury Sable, and I've owned a Camry before. I can't see my self spending premium $'s for Toyota's features when I get more and pay less at a Ford-Mercury dealer. To me, shelling out $30,000 for a Camry just doesn't make sense if for quite a bit less I get a Taurus/Sable.

badgerfan · February 2003

Well, you do not always get what you pay for.

The concept of diminishing returns applies here. You can spend more, get a little more refinement and perhaps quality, but, you may not be getting it in the same ratio as the increased price. For instance, one can always get a better car by paying more. Start rationalizing paying $1000 more a year, soon you could rationalize $1100 more a year to get a slightly better car, and so on. If carried to the extreme, you could work your way up to a $40-$50k car. Tell me if the $50k luxury sedan is actually nearly 3 times better than the $18k Taurus? After say 7 years, would you rather be able to buy another $18K new car, and still have $14K in cash, or still be driving your 7 year old luxury car?

Sure, there is a market for luxury cars as well as affordable cars as disposable incomes vary widely, but don't forget the market Taurus is targeted at.

In my opinion, Ford shouldn't be criticized for positioning Taurus in the market as an affordable midsize family sedan, rather than taking the tactic of meeting or beating the competitors in perceived or real quality or refinement and thus pricing the car out of many people's budgets. After all Ford's heritage, from the Model T days was to provide vehicles at prices the masses could afford. With the current economy struggling along, maybe Ford's approach may make sense.

upsetter1 · February 2003

Toyota is not a top of the world to pay so much. Considering Camry I can say that it is the excelent car, but style and interior design is not strong point, you cannot ignore that, but also the car is not emotional. Then again it feels like Buick - you just don't feel the car, it is way too smooth.

Taurus is not an ordinary car, it is not just another middle class bland vanilla sedan like Camry. It has a strong heritage, daring style, history behind it of Shakespearian proportions. At least two passionate books were written about designing two generations of Taurus. This car changed the way how american company was running in early 80s, how American cars supposed to look and feel and saved Ford as a car company. For me it doesn't have "rental image", just opposite, more like classic car image.

BTW Ford Falcon also has classic car image these days, who could imagine it in 60s. Do you know any Toyota so famous, Toyopet may be?

regfootball · February 2003

The Taurus is a good value, but many do not know you can often buy a LeSabre for right around 20 grand new.

I own a Taurus (SHO) and know its not a top dog. For many though, its about room, ride, safety, etc.

Both a Taurus and LeSabre compare well as an alternative to Toyotas, for those who like the dull Vanilla of a Toyota. Toyota folks are looking for a soft ride, strong mechanicals, and a solid spacious car. I mean come on, no one buys a Toyota for looks.

The Taurus has more room and is larger, rides almost as well. A Taurus maybe doesn't feel as nimble. The Duratec matches well to Toyota's v6. The fit and finish of a Taurus won't match the Camry but has just as nice an interior, excepting the cheap leather Ford always has.

The Lesabre will cruise better than the Camry and have more space. It will be just as quiet, and nearly as smooth. Except its got a typical Buick style curse, barcolounger seats and mush for steering and handling. Buick needs a dose of lively.

The Taurus and LeSabre with a nip and tuck in some areas for not much more money could be more favorable overall competitors to Camry, aside from their nice prices you can buy them for.

pluto5 · February 2003

I agree the Taurus is an excellent value but if you have lots of GM Card earnings the Impala LS is hard to beat at well wll under $20K. And avoid the AARP stigma of a Buick.

iusecad · February 2003

advertises the Impala. I think he's listened to by a few AARP members.

But I just drove my dad's Impala ~500 miles, and I will say it didn't suck...

regfootball · February 2003

well, personally i wouldn't be caught dead in an Impala, Lesabre, pretty much any GM car. It just seemed to me a LeSabre would be something a Toyota intender might look at before an Impala.

iusecad · February 2003

it was alright... I wouldn't buy one myself, but I'm having trouble deciding what I would...

pluto5 · February 2003

Howabout a Corvette?

regfootball · February 2003

I meant GM sedan....sorry.

venus537 · February 2003

if you get a Camry you don't have to get the top of line model. you can get a well equipped v6 model for far less than the $30k. then again, why get a camry when you can get the "classic" taurus for less? why even give the passat and accord a second look?

badgerfan · February 2003

Venus537 couldn't stay away for long.

Toyota needs to gold plate that low hanging Camry exhaust pipe and add the Toyota logo on it, then maybe Camry could be called a "classic" as well!
:-)

libertycat · February 2003

I know it is available. I am thinking of buying a used one in a few years and was curious about how common wood was in Tauruses.

fdthird · February 2003

We've got a 2001 with just about every option but no wood. When was that available???

sculldog33 · February 2003

One thing you miss is that while yes you can buy a less expensive Camry, the goal would be to get one similarly equiped. That means leather, moonroof, auto climate control, 6 disc CD changer w/extra speakers and amp, heated mirrors, foglights, ABS, traction control, power adjustable pedals, alloys, etc.

So my guess is that cheaper Camry's won't have all that, and you'll need to therefore get an XLS with an option package or two. I based my comment of a 30.5K Camry on a recent R&T review which had a loaded Camry that MSRP'd for that price. Loaded Passat is also pushing high 20's, and Accord V6 EX's ain't cheap either.

Key thing you miss is that the Sable/Taurus represent an amazing value. Big roomy car, great safety ratings, average reliability per Consumer Reports, about every option you could reasonably want in a car, all for 18.5 back on President's day. Yeah, the Camry is probably more reliable long term, but at a considerable, and in my mind, unjustifiable upfront cost.

badgerfan · February 2003

You hit the nail on the head as many of us posting here have emphasized many times before-that Taurus may not be the class leader, but it is the price leader by a large margin when comparing similarly equipped cars. Also, it is certainly not a slouch of a choice, despite the many people who deride it because of it's perceived "rental car" stigma, without really giving it a fair evaluation. Anyone who drives one day in and day out as I do, especially Duratec equipped versions, will find this out. Mine is quiet, has a smooth ride but with still taught handling, (no boulevard float, which I detest) spirited acceleration which is more than adequate for a car in this class, comfortable seats, and in my opinion has better styling than much of the competition in the mid size affordable family sedan class. Taurus/Sable CR reliability ratings are not too shabby as well.

libertycat · February 2003

badgerfan, I agree that the Taurus has the best styling of any sedan in its class, maybe even of all sedans

riswami · February 2003

go again badgerfan. You can't make a post without differentiating a Taurus by mentioning Duratec.

Had to have a repair for my Vulcan this week. My mechanic says the Duatecs are junk. His words not mine. Referred to engine failures. He also has a brother that works for Triple A towing vehicles. So maybe he gets more info from that angle.

I don't have facts on the failure rates and maybe he has a bias, but I'll say again, for everyday driving there isn't much difference between a Vulcan and a Duratec!

venus537 · February 2003

intellichoice recently came out with their best values for 2003 and the taurus was no where to be found.

sculldog33: i guess it comes down to your priorities in a car. would one want to give up some features when comparing similarly priced cars in order to obtain superior engineering and driving feel?

riswami · March 2003

intellichoice isn't going to rate a new Taurus as a wise buy. They take the car from sticker and then factor in depreciation.(I'm guessing here) Since a Taurus doesn't hold its value like some other models it doesn't fare well.

The way to buy a Taurus is used. Then run it into the ground. Now tell me if it isn't a good deal?

zeen · March 2003

I have a 96 Sable LS with the 24V engine. Driving on the highway yesterday and the engine became a pile of junk. It's dead and dealer says it needs to be replaced. Cost exceeds value of car. Any problems with this engine? Car is out of warranty but does Ford do anything to help in these situations?

ezaircon4jc · March 2003

I have 115K miles on my 96 and it's running like it was new. I've got an oil leak that I have to take care of, but other than that, no problems. The Duratec has been a very reliable engine for ford. It is used in many forms in many models.

You don't explain what you mean by "the engine became a pile of junk". That could mean anuthing. Was the oil changed ever 3K-5K? Was the coolant flushed? Was normal maintanence done? Specifics would help.

venus537 · March 2003

"They take the car from sticker and then factor in depreciation (I'm guessing here)"

if this is the case (i don't know either), then their picks would be skewed. for depreciation, you should start from the purchase price.

zeen · March 2003

Car purchased in 1998 with about 30,000 miles. Oil changed regularly 3000-5000 miles. Coolant flushed a couple of times. My daughter was driving on the highway and oil light came on. I had checked the oil just before she left about an hour earlier. Then engine light came on and engine started bucking an chugging and losing power. She pulled off the road and shut off engine. Tow truck brought it to local Mercury dealer who said engine will likely need replacement. They are doing full analysis Monday and will consult with Ford as well.
Car had minor oil leak in oil pan. They needed to take off exhaust system to repair. I kept the oil topped off on regular basis. It never got below a quart low.

upsetter1 · March 2003

You then can call Camry junk too. They have to replace in some occasions almost new engines still under warranty. It was kind of class action until Toyota agreed to take care of so called sludge problem. Buying any used car is a gambling. Duratec and Vulcan both have the reputation of very reliable engines. Even Jaguar has kind of Duratec under the hood. Though this forum is not about maint. and repair anyway.

ezaircon4jc · March 2003

If it's a check engine light that is an emissions related problem. Sounds to me like the catalytic converter might be plugged. Your symptoms seem like a plugged exhaust. Of course, I could be VERY wrong!

zeen · March 2003

Thanks ezaircon. Hope you're right. But the oil light went on a few minutes before the check engine light. Will check the converter in any event.

zeen · March 2003

PS A number of years ago, I had a brand new 88 Grand Am and had the same thing happen. Broke down on the turnpike. Turned out it was the catalytic converter. Just remembered that. Maybe there's hope.
Thanks again.

badgerfan · March 2003

I have nothing at all against a Vulcan V-6 equipped Taurus-I drove one for ten years before my current Taurus. It is entirely adequate as a good base engine for this car. I would by one new in an instant if I wanted to buy a new midsize car and keep my costs to a minimum. The ads out in my area for LX or SE Tauri new list them about upper $14K to low $15k range, which I think makes a low end Taurus a very good value.

My only point in emphasizing the Duratec is the major value it also has compared with V-6 equipped Camries, Accords, Altimas and Passats which can easily push into the mid to upper $20k range.

As far as durability, for any brand you will always find a few owners with disaster stories, and any owners that have major problems will be more likely post their problems if they find Edmunds, producing perceptions of major problems which are in reality fairly isolated, and this applies to all makes and models

Much as I disagree with some of Consumer Reports survey procedures, it is about all the general public has for making general reliability comparisons, and in recent years, Taurus and Sable have been greatly improved-and you have to remember that all cars have improved greatly in the last 10-15 years, such that an average reliability rating now is a much better rating than an average rating just a few years ago.

fdthird · March 2003

My wife has a great 2001 SEL that we really love. Recently we rented a 2002 SES from Hertz and now have a question. On the rental car the cruise control buttons on the wheel were lit. ON my wife's they are not.

Is this something that happened in 2002 or has there always been a problem with my wife's 2001??

badgerfan · March 2003

My 2000 SES does not have lighted cruise control buttons. Perhaps they added them for the 2002 model year?

upsetter1 · March 2003

It is interesting to read in Mary Walton's "Car: A Drama of the American Workplace" (it is inside look to developement of 1996 Ford Taurus, so called DN101) how things were in late 80s and early 90s. Very similar btw. Camry wasn't competitor yet though (it was a compact econobox then) and main competitor was Accord. She writes that 40% of Accords were sold to fleets compared to 60% of Taurus. Not a big difference IMHO. I also resently noticed that Hertz actually is selling 2002 Accords (never saw it before). The price (it is fixed) is $14,600 - $18,000 for 4 cylinder with 25,000 miles. 2002 Camry - $15,000 -$15,500; Taurus/Sable - $11,000. In our area there are about 33 Accord available, the same amount of Taurus/Sable and twice as much Camries (55).

The price difference I can explain as Accord and Camry having more superior engine (even being 4 cylinder) and transmission compared with that damned Vulcan and AX4S on all rental Tauruse/Sables and having higher quality/ more reliable perseption blah-blah-blah. But that Accord is overestimated - there is no question about it. Now the point is that it is a myth that Taurus is a fleet car and Accord and Camry are not. They are and were (at least Accord according to Mary Walton was since 80s, 40% is a big number). She also writes about Accord owners. According to Walton they were 40 years old in average compared with 50 years for Taurus in 1991, kind a brainwashed yuppies who kept silent about problems with their cars, bought it because everyone else did and praise it because well you had to do it not to look stupid.

In Europe btw Accord never was popular and there was a reason why. It is kind of another stipud American cult. Everyone who drove Audi and then Accord will understand what I mean.

venus537 · March 2003

the Accord has never at any time approach anything close to 40% in fleet sales. the Accord didn't achieve its reputation and popularity because of brain washed yuppies either. do you really want to get into a demographic comparison between Accord and Taurus owners?

riswami · March 2003

is Camry and Accord are deemed to be better by a large enought segment of the population to demand a price premium. I personally didn't think it was worth the extra cash when I bought my Taurus used in 98.

Are they superior in engineering? Maybe, but I don't care; same as I don't care if their 4 bangers are superior to the Vulcan. I was interested in the bottom line. When I checked an Accord out in 98 it was going to cost me 300 more a year to insure, so I'm over 1,500 ahead at this point. And are you going to tell me that their fours are that inspiring to drive on a dailey basis? I could care less. I wanted something afforable, reliable and durable. So far I haven't been disappointed.

I wouldn't say that only yuppies buy Accords and Camries; but I will say that some people who buy those cars are clueless. They are surprised when they need repairs. They are good and have earned their reps; don't know if you get that premium purchase cash back.

upsetter1 · March 2003

"Accord has never at any time approach anything close to 40% in fleet sales"

How do you know for sure to make this kind of statement? Did you work for Honda in 80s or was industry insider or made a market research ?

I'm sure Mary Walton did some reseach before writing a book, that's her job man. BTW you can go to Hertz website and check for youself that 30 previous rental Accords, the same number as Tauruses are currently on sale in East bay area, it is a big number btw. Here is the link:

http://www.hertzcarsales.com/findcar/findcar_premodel.asp?cost=99- 9999&state=CA&city=%25&cartype=Car

Statement about yuppies is from book too. I tend to believe that yuppies drive Audi or other German cars, or at least Acura rather than boring Accord. I don't know any yuppie driving Camcord/Taurus. But who knows.

venus537 · March 2003

i would say no car manufacturer is exempt from having clueless buyers.

venus537 · March 2003

take my word for it, nothing close to 40%. not even 10%.

upsetter1 · March 2003

May be now. But Mary was talking about late 80s and early 90s. Fleet sales doesn't mean rental only. And why I have to believe you instead of Mary Walton, is there reason ?

collegecar · March 2003

I plan to buy a car for cash that I can drive for the next 5 years while I go back to school full time.
For $11K I could buy a 2002 Taurus SES former rental with about 28K miles, the standard engine, CD, ABS and power seat.
For $12500 after rebate I could get pretty loaded Elantra with even more equipment (except power seat).
The Taurus will be bigger, quieter, more comfortable and safer, but will only gave 8K miles left on warranty and will be showing the wear of being a former rental. It will also be $1500 cheaper. I'm not sure that savings is worth the future repair costs.
For $2K I could buy the Ford ESP plan with 100K mile Bumper to Bumper coverage and zero deductable. This now makes the Taurus $500 more and it is still a used rental compared to a brand new Elantra. I don't know if the ESP plan will provide coverage on the former rental because I won't have proof the scheduled maintenance was done by the rental company,
Which is the better choice? It looks like a new Elantra makes more sense.

upsetter1 · March 2003

Choosing the car is very subjective. Elantra is a good car, but you will discover pretty soon that it is a cheap car, it is just feeling that you get. Well I would choose used but more upscale car for the same money.

Elantra will have better fuel economy. But it is not a family car, it is not as safe as Taurus. Taurus is a family car in contrast and pretty safe and reliable. Okay because it is Taurus forum lets talk anout Taurus. I was in a situation to buy almost new used Sable and the best solution I found was the certified used Ford/Mercury. Ford gives extended warranty and that adds about $800 to the price. The idea is that only best used cars are supposed to be sold under this program. I was looking for Duratec engine and couldn't find Sable with this engine that match color and milage I wanted. Anyway Sable is more unique car than Taurus and more difficult to find, so I bought new Sable in the end.

I was shopping in Hertz too and Sables I tested had one or another type of defect, despite they asserted that they picked the best cars, fixed all defects and blah-blah-blah. It simply wasn't true. But anyway they don't have Dutatec. Well I believe that Ford sells worst cars to fleets. But I know also people who bought previous rental Taurus and are happy. Also go to Carfax (sometimes it is free on dealers website). Car's history contains a lot of hints, e.g. why someone buys the car and sells it only after 3 month.

I have Ford ESP on my Sable, driving a lot so 36,000 is not enough for me. It cost me ~ $1000 for 5/100,000.

collegecar · March 2003

I went to the Hertz car sales place and they had one that did look surprising clean and had a little less miles than typical. I looked at the service history and saw the maintenance and repairs that had already been done on it. It did have warranty repairs done and that made be rethink the purchase, but I decided to go ahead. I would never have known what repairs had been done if I bought from anywhere else, so at least I know what I'm getting. I test drove it for 30 minutes and it drives perfectly.
It was a 2002 SES with the standard engine (would have liked the Duratec for an extra kick for passing, but the standard engine was adequate). The car has 24K miles, power seat, CD player, ABS and alloy wheels. The price was listed as $10,995, but there is a special this weekend for AAA members for an extra $300 off. So I left a deposit and will come back over the weekend and pick up the car for $10695. TTL and the $0 deductible warranty that adds 5 years and 70K miles coverage starting from the day I buy the car (meaning it is covered till it is 6 years old or has 94K miles) made the out the door price $13K. Looks like a good deal.
I'm selling my "old" 2002 Accord EXV6 coupe to CarMax right before I go to pick up the Taurus in a few days. Then the Hertz salesperson will come and pick me up so I can collect the Taurus. CarMax already gave me a written offer, so I'm going back to take them up on it before the 7 days it is valid expires.
I tried going to another dealer that had several similar Taurus SES sedans that were also prior rentals to see if they could match the CarMax trade quote and the Hertz price so I could save the hassle of dealing with two different dealerships, but they wanted $11999 for their car and we didn't even get to the point of talking about the extended warranty.
$13K out the door with 5 years left of B2B warranty (minus maintenance items and a small list of exclusions) and no deductible feels like a really good deal for a good looking, comfortable and safe 1 year old car.

atcers · March 2003

I for one appreciate the info you provided on "fleet sales". I like supporting information not "someones word on it".

badgerfan · March 2003

I am just curious, but why are you getting rid of a 2002 Accord EXV6 coupe that less than 2 years old to replace with a Taurus that is also the same model year? I would think the Accord would last you the 5 years you are looking for also. Are you trying to get out from under a big car loan? Selling the Accord will no doubt also hit you with some large depreciation, as all but maybe a few collector cars depreciate highly in the first year or two of ownership. Hondas are not immune from depreciation either.

collegecar · March 2003

I am getting rid of it to get rid of the loan and the higher insurance. The Accord will also be a theft target in the areas where I am planning to move and park for college. I currently work in a low crime area and the car is garaged at home. When I go back to school, the car will probably be parked on the street or in some apartment complex parking lot in a so-so neighborhood.
Even though it is a 2002 Accord, I purchased it in Oct 2001 and the real world trade in value is only a few hundred less than the loan payoff at this point. If I had the time to sell it myself, I would get more than the payoff, so the depreciaton is not that bad compared to most other cars. I like this Taurus, but I am really glad I did not buy it new. I checked the prices for a new 2003 SES and even if I could buy one at invoice cost minus the current $3000 rebate, that is still $17,404 plus taxes based on the before-rebate price of $20404 (not even including an extended warranty) for a car that would only be worth about $9K trade in after a year. If I had bought a Taurus new with no money down, it would probably take nearly four years of payments on a 5 year loan before I would no longer be upside down in the loan.
I also want to replace the coupe for a 4 door since I'm planning to be carrying passengers and carpooling more often soon.

badgerfan · March 2003

I understand your situation now.

While I bought my Taurus new, I also keep them a long time, so depreciation is mostly gone by the time I buy again no matter what I would buy. Because I keep cars a long time, I like to buy new so I control all the maintenance. But, I must admit from a cost of ownership standpoint, buying a 1-3 year old model and getting an extended warranty with the deal is a very good approach.

Enjoy your Taurus. I happen to think it is a very good car for the price, new or used and does not deserve the "rental car" stigma so many people use to deride it.

venus537 · March 2003

well good for you. i'm too lazy to look up percentages of fleets sales from the last decade so i guess i have no leg to stand on. but 4 out of 10 accords to fleet sales just doesn't equate.

upsetter1 · March 2003

Whatever %% of fleet sales are, Accord depreciation is least compared to Camry and esp. Taurus. With Taurus problem is more in overproduction and aging platform than in fleet sales. Taurus still plays catch up with Accord and Toyota since 80s and I do not see the way how Ford (or GM or any American or European company) is able to make better engineered and higher quality product than Honda and Toyota for the same money. To outsell Honda and Toyota it has to be as good product, but bigger and with better style (actually it was motto of second generation Taurus team). When I saw first time new Accord I just couldn't believe that basic car can be so good built and engineered and has such a high quality interior. I mean they can threaten even Germans in the end, they already moving incrementally in this direction. It is interesting to see how Ford is going to deal with this threat taking into account that traditionally they are more busy with internal infighting on management level than improving quality. UAW too. Japanese don't have UAW.

riswami · March 2003

say over production is the reason for Taurus depreciation. Accord, Camry and Taurus all sell around 400,000 units a year.

The market is set by the price people are willing to pay. Camry and Accord are deemed superior by a segment of the population, thus they fetch a higher price in the used car market.

Don't get your point about the Germans. Besides the Passat, what cars do the Germans offer in the Accord, Taurus and Camry price point?

collegecar · March 2003

I just had my amps and subwoofer transferred from the Accord to the Taurus, so I will have better than stock sound while the car will appear totally stock by anyone peering in the windows. I also replaced the front door speakers.
I am satisified with the way the Taurus drives. It is smoother and slightly quieter than the Accord, but doesn't handle as well. The V6 engine is not even remotely as smooth and silky as the Honda V6, but it is not a problem since I would still prefer it to a 4 cylinder Honda.
I also noticed the body panel gaps are bigger and not as straight as on the Honda. Most of it is fine, but one is so bad around the trunk lid that I will take it to the dealer to see if the trunk lid can be realigned to make sure no water gets inside. I can almost get a finger through one side of the trunk near the top of the tail lights. Since this is exactly the type of thing that would not be covered under the extended warranty, I need to get it taken care of before the factory warranty expires or return the car for refund or exchange before Hertz Sales' 5 day / 300 mile return period lapses if it cannot be fixed.

upsetter1 · March 2003

collegecar, V6 what did you get on your Taurus is not real V6. It is old style unefficient pushrod, nobody in world anymore do this kind of stuff anymore. I think Accord 4 cylinder is better engine in all aspects except low end torque. The ral V6 is Duratec. Honda is famous for engine designs anyway and Ford is not.

riswami, you have to add more than 100,000 Sables. Two factories in Atlanta and Chicago are churning out Tauruses and Sables and it is too much, thats why Ford sells so many Tauruses to fleets, just keep plants running.

I was actually talking about Japanese entering succesfully luxury car market with good (and more reliable) cars. I would buy new Acura (European Accord) rather than Audi A4, because I heard horrible stories about Audi, e.g. A4 prematurely but postwarranty broken time belt and following very expensive overhaul of engine and Audi kept silent about widespread defect for many years.

Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable Sedans Pre-2008

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