Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

dindak · October 2002

I think it's true, the L300 is very fast. The likely reason is the weight, the L300 is smaller with polymer panels on the doors.

fantascp · October 2002

Vc jumper and Dindak-Thanks for your responses,
still waiting for Bob to verify his statement.

I just got the RATED times for the 2003 Grand-Prix GT and the Saturn 2003 L300 from the Bonneville site of which I am a member.

PONTIAC GRAND PRIX- GT- 8.0
SATURN L300- 8.2

Not what I would consider EITHER vehicle "SPANKING"
the other one!!

Chuck

vcjumper · October 2002

Funny how much times differ between different magazines and manufacturers, and how two cars that are both rated ~8 seconds 0-60 can feel so different because of where they make their power.

streetracer · October 2002

I really struggle with how to objectively rate acceleration - without lining the two cars up and seeing who gets to a certain point faster at various starting speeds (assuming you are in cruising gear).

I often see numbers which do not match my personal experience driving one or more given cars, or engaging in a friendly test of speed:)

I like Daniel Heraud's times from Carpoint for relative comparisons with a few exceptions. The times are slower for all cars as compared to mags, but relative to one another seem to reflect my personal experience and that of others.

I have friends with various cars that on paper as faster or faster than my GTP. However, I was easily able to pull away from them (stock) from any speed to any speed. They also agreed after driving in both cars that mine was faster.

I think you have to really be careful about magazine 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. They may use launch and shift techniques that are unrealistic for most driving environments. Standing start acceleration also favors manual transmissions and rear wheel drive, more so then rolling starts or passing.

Plus 3800SC is particularly hard to launch in front wheel drive car given all the torque, while also prevents you from building up a lot kinetic energy in the engine through a high rpm launch.

I also believe offical 0/60 and 1/4 times are started from when the car begins to move not when you engage the clutch or press the gas/release break in an automatic.

A car with a high stall speed torque converter and sufficient traction may post better numbers than its useful performance. If you punch it at a light, the clock starts when the pedal drops.

A lot of real world stop light dual are also a few hundred feet. Hence 1/8 mile and '60 times might be more relevant.

Tires make a world of different too. The sports package on some euro sports sedans come with much better tires than the stock ones on their american counter parts.

The result is much better braking, acceleration, and skidpad numbers.

Now if you drive a car without this package, or just with lesser tires, it can be a world of difference.

Think about how much different better tires make on GTP.

I switched from Eagle RSA to Dunlop SP3000 in same size and it was a total different car.

regfootball · October 2002

the grand prix, of all the NA 3800 cars I have driven seems to have the best acceleration, and possibly the most aggressive tranny.

Also, in the Grand Prix the 3800 did seem to be more mannerly and behaved than in other cars.

My most recetn drive of a 3800 was in a 2k2 Bonneville and again it felt dull to me.

I recall the l300 auto I drove to feel very very snappy. Upon recollection It seemed as though it revved quicker and had a bit more upper top end than the NA GP.

Cars like the Regal, LeSabre, Lumina, Bonne etc. that I have test drove with the NA 3800 seemed to rev slow and not sound that great. Acceleration was decent, but not what I would term enjoyable...for some reaosn in the Grand Prix it seems a bit better.

The Saturn just seems more "good to go" as far as being a more willing partner.

As far as test times I know the L300 has had good 0-60's but don't recall what the passing times and street starts were.

fantascp · October 2002

Thanks for responding. I guess its how each of us individually get the feeling of driving various
cars. As I mentioned earlier- i just leased a new 2003 Grand-prix GT- NA3800, gave it a great run over the week-end- put on almost 500 miles- the car is (again in my opinion) faster than the L300.
Very fast acceleration.-

Chuck

b4z · October 2002

Different gearing may be what you are feeling.
My Impala LS has a 3.05 gear. But i think that engine is offered with gearing down into the 2.70's. I know there is a 2.93 gear also.

Incidently my Intrigue with the 3.5L and 3.29 gear was quicker than my Impala. On the highway the gap was even larger.

stubborn1 · October 2002

Hi,

I have a 2k GP GT. Has anyone had experience getting a car seat installed in this vehicle? I know a lot of new cars have built in "latches" between the seats in the back where the seat just snaps into them. I looked around and couldn't find anything like this. I talked to our local dealer and he was clueless. Does anyone know if I can buy this latch thing aftermarket and install it?

-Rob

montanafan · October 2002

2003 is the first year for the LATCH system in the Grand Prix. Because it is built in to the car, I do not believe you can buy the system to update a car built without it.

fantascp · October 2002

I got the new Grand Prix GT- put on over 500 miles this week-end- car was great EXCEPT for one little problem- I know its minor and its covered in full by the Warranty- but please- the AUTO down doesn't work on the Drivers side front window.I would think that someone at the Plant should check before hand that all windows etc work properly before shipping the vehicles to their destinations. Yes?- No?
Its the inconvenience that here is a brand new car and its back to the service dept already.

Chuck

montanafan · October 2002

It is the dealer's responsibility to check functions before delivery in their prep department. I also believe the salesperson should double check before delivery. Thats what the prep money GM pays the dealer covers. But what I see dealers do on cars they get from other dealers is to blame the first dealer since they received the prep money.
That said, isn't the GP a blast to drive. I always enjoy any chance I get to drive either of my Brothers' GPs. And to add to the engine discussion, it is the low RPM torque of the 3800 that makes it feel so much faster the then Saturn. Enjoy. (ps did you squeze into a 36 month lease or stay with the quoted 48 month?)

fantascp · October 2002

I stayed with the 48 month lease-I had to get the payments lower than what i was paying for the 2000 bonneville. I took out the extended warranty for about $8.00 more a month- I now have full coverage for the entire 48/60,000.
I also passed on the upsell nonsense- "ETCHED GLASS VIN- CUT OFF GAS ETC.- I told the Dealer thats what i pay insurance for and why would I want to put those things into a leased vehicle that more than likely I'm not going to purchase
thats how they really nail unsuspecting buyers.
YES- Its really great driving the car- much more
tighter feel of the road than what was in the Bonneville SE- this car has the Magnasteer etc package,full leather interior, heated drivers seat, sunroof, cd with the equalizer,compass/temp rear view mirror,trip computer,(the 1SC package)
traction control-
I got upgraded to the Cast aluminum 5 spoke(High Polish Wheels, the radio with the Equalizer, and the trip Computer- these were not in the original order- dealer could not find that car so to make the deal go he took the hit for the extra items-
in this car because of my wife changing her mind on the color.*no extra charge!*

Chuck

rjh3800 · October 2002

Hello everyone -

I just happened to pop across this conversation and thought that I would attempt to shed some light on many of the points brought up here.

First of all: I sell cars for a living... Specifically Saturn's, and I also own a Grand Prix GT and a GTP (Both 2000's).

First of all... ANY GM car with a 3800 under the hood will FEEL like it is faster than the L300 because of the displacement difference. as you all know.. the Saturn uses a 24 valve 3 Liter Dual Over Head Cam engine (four valves per cylinder) and the Pontiac uses a 3.8 Liter 12 valve Over Head Valve engine (Two valves per cylinder)

so: The Pontiac makes more torque ... which is the power you feel off the line, which also explains why the Pontiac will smoke the tires more effectively than the Saturn. Thus, you feel like your moving faster.

Because the Saturn's engine displaces .8 liters less than the Pontiac, It uses Four valves (two for intake, two for exhaust) thus allowing the engine to breath more efficiently, creating a "better burn" - which makes more power.

A good example of this would be to compare a 3 liter 12 valve Ford Taurus to a 3 Liter 24 valve Taurus... Same displacement, but the 24 valve one will blow the doors off of the 12 valve version.

Next... The Saturn uses a much newer engine design than the Pontiac. The DOHC engine in the Saturn eliminates MANY moving parts found on the 3800... Mainly the pushrods. The more Reciprocating movement there is, the more power it takes to make the car go.

This is why the Pontiac sounds more aggressive than the Saturn... Plus, the Saturn uses a timing BELT... not a chain like the Pontiac's 3800. There is a profound noise difference with that change alone.

When it comes to reliability, anyone that had a Z34 Monte Carlo from the mid 90's or one of the pre 1997 GTP's knows that the 3.4 liter DOHC V6 was NOT a cheap car to maintain ... because the technology behind that engine (like many DOHC engines...) is still developing, while the "pushrod" Overhead Valve design on the 3800 has been used in engines for over 30-40 years.

A lot more time has gone into perfecting the technology of the Pontiac's 3800 than the DOHC engines found in many cars (including the L300, Taurus SHO, etc etc...) so it will be inherently more reliable, and cheaper to maintain.

Finally, Gears... The transmissions in ALL Saturn's correspond to the powerband of the engine it's mated to... So no matter how fast your going, the car can deliver optimum acceleration no matter how fast your going.

This explains why the 182 HP Saturn VUE SUV (which uses the same motor as the L300) will outrun a 240 HP Ford Escape. (Trust me... I've done it) The Five Speed automatic in the VUE is designed for performance... (it will hit over 90 MPH shifting into 3rd, and wont feel anywhere near winded)

All things considered ... there about the same (unless you don't like the L's "Whine" or you own a GTP... Which will give the L a beating it will never soon forget)

My Advice... Saturn has addressed all of the "quality" and "reliability" problems of the DOHC engine it uses in the L. I wouldn't think twice about buying one... Plus they don't rust! A real plus in Wisconsin.

Hope this helps!

dindak · October 2002

I only wish the L300 was a little bigger. It feels pretty small IMO.

I like the new 2003 look though, big improvement!

fantascp · October 2002

Thanks for the info- as mentioned in my prior post- not knocking Saturn-its a fine auto- just that the Grand Prix GT offered more for the $$$$- when push came to shove- the Saturn Dealership could not match the Pontiac Dealers offer.
What Saturn was originally offering was a L200- 4 cyl in comparison to the NA3800 GT 6cyl- they did up the ante to the L300 but still fell short on extra options that clinched the deal for the Grand Prix.

Dindik- I got the same impression also- I can't remember the size dimensions of the inside passenger volume for each car etc however, I think the GP is larger inside.

Chuck

regfootball · November 2002

a) escapes only have 200hp
b) toyota and honda have built OHC motors reliably for years....even more 'complexity'
c) the GM 3.4 'twin dual cam' was a problem child motor because it was not a clean sheet design.....it was an attempt to morph a OHV design into OHC....they designed it that way so they could utilize existing tooling from the OHV family. That's probably why it was a bad design....it was half-assed.

hapguy · November 2002

Hello. I'm really close to making the purchase of a 02 GT and was curious how the insurance costs were for this vehicle. Can anyone let me know what their expierence has been with insurance costs. I live in the suburbs of Chicago.
Many thanks.

richm4 · November 2002

Overall, insurance for the GT is very reasonable, especially for such a sporty car. I live in Chicago proper, and on a 98 4-door GT, married, no accidents or tickets, full coverage to the hilt, and I pay under $900 a year.

fantascp · November 2002

Passing on info for anyone who didn't know- Recall from the NHTSA for Grand-Prix- built 03/1997 to 10/97. Effective date 11/06/2002- Campaign # 02V286000
Steering Gear-Rack and Pinion
go to site below my name for the info.

Chuck

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

montanafan · November 2002

Thanks for the post, because no one will know because it is not happening until January. http://www.media.gm.com Also includes some minivans, so look for the title in the release list for November 14th.

richm4 · November 2002

I had the battery replaced on my 98 GT today, and had to pay $70 just for the labor portion, supposedly due to the placement of the battery in the engine bay.

Does this cost sound reasonable to those who have had to have their battery replaced?

heng · November 2002

looks like the corner brace had to be removed and then replaced and maybe even the fuse box.

Yes, it looks like they charged you for an hour of labor, although it looks like 30 mins worth of work.

andyz3 · December 2002

I just turned my 2000 GTP back in after leasing it for 39 months, and 39000 miles. The experiences I had with this car were typical for a GM product. It had plenty of power and good looks. The engine and transmission gave me no trouble at all. I was a little leery on the supercharger being troublesome. The only dislike was the fact I had to use premium gas at .30 more a gallon.
But remember I said typical GM product.. so that means many trips back to the dealer for repairs.
First problem the dash lights would go dim then bright.an alternator
Then the CD player quit.
Next the interior door panels came loose.( plastic clips is all that holds them on)
Then the ABS light came on.wiring to left front wheel was worn through by tire rubbing it on right turns.
Left rear speaker died.
Next the car failed to start. Alternator they said. Battery I told them. The car ran fine after a quick battery charge at home to get it started. So they replaced the alternator again.
Failed to start again Alternator they said..Battery I told them..I ran all the electrical equipment for 20 miles its charging fine. They replaced the alternator again.
Failed to start for third time. They replaced the battery. No more trouble.
Driver side window fell down inside of door. cable broke
Water inside of both headlights. This is a problem with most GM cars. Water gets in the plastic chrome falls off and you might as well hold a flashlight out the window to see.
Thank god all repair were under warranty. Only expenses I had were normal maintenance items.
I also own a 97 GT my son drives. Only normal maintenance items, set of tires. Brake pads and a battery. 67000 miles. Knock on wood

aviatorman · December 2002

I found on cars.com that NHTSA is investigating GM vehicles with the 3800 Series engine. It also claims that so far 44 complaints and 8 injures. I have a 2000 GP and sometimes it smells terrible after running for a while. I'm taking it to get looked at tommorow.

dsm6 · December 2002

I've had similar experiences with mine (a 99 GTP). Many trips to the dealers for all sorts of things, including a tranny rebuild.

It makes it hard to like the car. Yes it looks good, and yes it has nice low end torque, but boy do those trips to the dealer get to you after a while. I'm contemplating getting rid of it when my 100,000 mile extended warranty runs out. I hate to waste money like that, but I's also hate to waste it on repairs. Too bad. I wish GM cared more about its customers.

ruski · December 2002

I leased a 98 GTP and did not have any problems. Well, once the steering rack needed to be replaced under warranty. That's it.

dsm6 · December 2002

Some questions for you folks in the know:

Will it be on the same platform as the current gen GP?

Am I remembering correctly that assembly will move to the Ontario plant where the sister car Regal is currently built?

dindak · December 2002

Production is indeed moving to the Ontario plant, they will be tooling up soon. I believe the platform is mostly the same but someone who knows more will have to back me up on that.

dsm6 · December 2002

Thanks for the plant info.

I seem to recall a rumor about the GP moving to the Bonnie's platform, but I think that plan was scratched.

mike935 · December 2002

stop talking about other cars in this board, you can go to a 300C board to talk about that car.

beach15 · December 2002

Yes, the 2004 Grand Prix is still on the same w-body platform, but is a slightly "refreshed" model of the current. Thus, same basic construction and design, just a little stiffer or better re-engineered in places. Nothing totally new though.

orwoody · December 2002

here is a link I picked up on one of these forums a while back on the new GP

http://www.gminsidenews.com/04GP.htm

dsm6 · December 2002

I'm glad they're moving to the Ontario plant. The Regal has always scored better on initial quality and reliability than the GP, inspite of their amazing similarities.

I hope they make the thing crash better. It isn't a bad crasher, but isn't near the top either.

If they take care of both my reliability and safety concerns, I might consider another one. My wife just loves the SC 3800.

aviatorman · December 2002

I took my GP to my dealer and they had it all day. They clam they replaced several gaskets. Although I am not to impressed with my local dealer.

smily1 · December 2002

You probably had the famous valve cover gasket leak. I need to replace mine as well. Even though I have an extended warranty, I want to put in some 1.9 ratio rockers while I have the valve covers off.

don129 · December 2002

WOOOOHOO!!! I just picked up my 2002 GTP Coupe from Potamkin in NYC. Found it on GMBuypower... almost the last GTP coupe in New York! Traded in my 1998 GTP with 97,000 miles for $4100 ($2,800 after payoff of old car) New GTP has every option except polished rims....$28,130 MSRP, Sale price of $24,500... less $4,000 cash back, $620 free leather, $1813 GM card earnings..... total price.... $15,267!!!! Not one dime outta my pocket in cash. Payments are $20 less per month than my 1998! I'm STOKED!!!!!!

built4drvz · December 2002

I own a GP SE 3.1L 45,000 kms. The Check Engine light came on under code P1404 for the EGR valve. The GM dealership said this is a common recent problem in GM vehicles (such as Montana) that will cause the PCM to fall out of calibration and trigger false codes. Therefore, they re-flashed the PCM and made the light dissapear. I was wondering if they'd just changed the trigger range so the light wouldn't come on that easily. Anyone familiar with this please reply, or email built4drvz@hotmail.com. GM says they trust their factory trained techs and advised me to contact the dealership, which I did, they offered the "out-of-calibration" explanation. Thanks a lot. Dan

montanafan · December 2002

Found this with a Google search, http://calid.gm.com/vci/ for check if there are calibration updates for you late model GM cars. Also The California Air Resourses Board keeps close check on manufacturers, and in the past has fined them if they program the systems to ignore a problem (Think it most recently was Toyota or Honda, didn't go recheck, so sorry if incorrect). Most likely the reprograming did make the trigger range higher, since there was no problems with the way the car was running.

built4drvz · December 2002

I entered my VIN there and it returned a small table like this (columns look misplaced in text mode):
Part Number Cal. ID # CVN Bulletin # Description
09361404 09361336 N/A N/A control module calibration
12205454 12205278 N/A N/A software change to control unwanted idle speed.
12207584 12207428 N/A N/A new calibration to correct setting of false dtc p0420
12211484 12211452 N/A N/A new calibration prevents setting of false trouble codes.
12214454 12214425 N/A N/A new calibration to eliminate false p1404 codes
12221844 12221685 N/A N/A new calibration to eliminate false p1404 codes

What is the Part number in the first column, is like a fix code or action ID? Second column is the calibration ID, I suppose. Seems that some P1404 codes are false indeed. I forgot to mention that my GP SE is 2001 model. Thanx.

built4drvz · December 2002

The help page says:
"The last line of each table indicates the latest part number issued for your vehicle....
In addition to the information in these tables, you also need to know the calibration ID(s) and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) currently contained in your vehicle to determine if there is a later calibration available. Service scan tools have the capability to read calibration ID and CVN values from the vehicle controller...."

There is a blank space after the word PART#: on my work order, although THERE IS an 8-digit part# printed for a door clip they replaced the same day, so I'm going to have a little Monday morning conversation with them ;-) Thanks again for the tip, Montanafan.

orwoody · December 2002

I was surfing and found these photos posted by someone who shot them at the 2002 SEMA show in November. There is a mix of cars but many are of the 2004 GTP. I posted on the 2004 subject forum also.

http://new.clubgp.com/sema2002/

dindak · December 2002

Great link.. interior of the new GP looks better than the current IMO.

2003carz · January 2003

It is now on the Pontiac website...

dindak · January 2003

Interior definitely looks better. Nice looking car!!

orwoody · January 2003

Here is a web site link that has Pontiac's specs/options... as they sit now with the 2004 GP. They update it periodically.
At the site click on Print Book, then select 2004 Grand Prix from the drop down.
You can chose by section or click on Print Model to get the entire document. You'll need Acrobat reader to open the document. Click on Print and it will open the document.

http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/vehiclesel.jsp?regionID=1&divisionID=7#

beach15 · January 2003

I just watched a full review of the 2004 Grand Prix on PBSs Motorweek. I wasnt aware of this car being reviewed anywhere else yet, but the car they tested was a fully loaded silver GTP Competition with charcoal leather. Up until now, I havent really had much of a liking to the new 2004 GP from what Ive seen in pictures on the net and in magazines, but seeing it in motion and on video in the real world, I very much like it now. After showing basic exterior views from different angles, the next thing they did was make a point of putting the camera down in from of one side of the new dual exhausts on the GTP and letting you hear the car at start-up and then as it was lightly revved. The car seemed to have a nice growl and sounded very sporty, though not loud by any means and clearly not very aggressive. They proceeded to show views of the car climbing hills and making sharp turns at speed and I was even more impressed with the look of the car in motion.

From there, they went on to explore the new, much improved interior with great versatility, saying it may now be possible to buy a very sporty sedan but still have the ability and flexibility to haul and carry large or long items, with the fold flat split back seats and new feature that allows the back of the front passengers seat to lay flat too, much like a PT Cruiser. That, and then they showed just how much room it had by being able to carry a long, rolled up area rug in the car with the seats folded and still be able to close the trunk. In addition, they opened one of the back doors to show how they now open at a nearly 90-degree angle and loaded a big box in that way and onto the backseat easily. The new TAP Shift was also shown, and I think its very cool, much like that in certain Lexus, BMWs, and Ferraris. Simply pull the shift lever back to the last position, and then lightly tap the paddle on the right side of the steering wheel to shift up or down. Information about the systems programming in relation to the way the transmission shifts was also given.

Overall, a very nice car and I can see it doing very well as a replacement for the current model. It also seems to be more of an import fighter, and the reviewer even said how it offers a much more unique and sporty, performance-oriented experience than the Accord or Camry specifically.

orwoody · January 2003

I saw the Motorweek review also, and was especially happy to hear them state that even with the Comp G package the GTP should come in under $30k. With all the equipment and performance it should be a very competitive vehicle. I'm really hoping they'll have one at our Auto show the end of January.

rayainsw · January 2003

I was also interested to see the Preview on Motorweek. I am still a bit disappointed that 1.) the trans with new TAP appears to be still essentially the same 4 speed unit I had in my '97 GTP and 2.) the trans. will not upshift at red-line, but rather bounce off the rev. limiter. This is a behavior I have experienced and find annoying - more annoying than a forced upshift at redline.

Cheers,
- Ray
Who might still consider a GTO WS6 - and will certainly at least drive one - sometime in the future . . .

beach15 · January 2003

Here's a link to tons of pics of cars unveiled at the Detroit Auto Show:

http://www.autonews.com/files/2003_detroit/03detroitshowart/

Check out the weird new Malibu, the new Traverse, the Caddy's, the S10 replacements and the GTO.

evandro · January 2003

Indeed, the new Malibu tops in the weird scale. :^) However, the interior looks like a nice improvement.

Overall, I had the impression that GM excelled in its sedans, from the Chevy SS and Pontiac G6 to the new Grand Prix. The new 3.6 V6 in the new Cadillac SUV sounds interesting too.

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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