Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

regfootball · May 2003

I have criteria for stylistic success in a car other than just seeing the blue GM 'mark of excellence' on some sticker on the door jamb or under the hood, or in the owners manual.

If Camrys ever came with a GM badge on it, I suppose you'd all of a sudden find those attractive as well.

orwoody · May 2003

I stated earlier that Pontiac's choice of cloth is not for my tastes, but there are auto upholstery shops than can recover the seats just like factory. So if the cloth pattern is tha only major objection.... I mention it as it is an alternative - negotiate the price down and then find a reputable shop to recover the seats in a better choice. My father in law somehow got a puncture in his Regal's leather - he found a shop that was able to match the leather and recover the seat cushion so it looked like it had never been damaged. Years ago I had a pickup seat(bench) recovered that was nicer than the original ever could have dreamed of.

oldsman01 · May 2003

While I'm a leather seat person, the new GP cloth is pretty bad. This seems to be a trend among all automakers with GM's cloth being the worst these days. Bad thing is, GM used to put pretty nice cloth in their cars. I actually preferred the ultra plush cloth seats of the some of their higher end Buicks and Oldsmobiles back in the late 80s. Now you can get cloth as a no cost option on most of those models, but it's not very nice cloth.

vcjumper, the new GP doesn't offer automatic climate control at all. In fact, the GP hasn't offered this in several years. I noticed this two years ago when I was seriously considering a GTP coupe.

gunit, I agree with you on the GP coupe although the GTO is what it taking it's place ultimately. The GP was redesigned in 97 I wanted a GTP coupe so bad, but being in college then I just could not afford one. Almost bought one two years ago, but the "de-contented" interior turned me off. I'm one of the rare who likes a good size coupe. The Grand Am/Alero and Stratus/Sebring are too small. A coupe the size of the Monte Carlo or GP is just right. The Monte is just not very good looking IMO and doesn't offer the supercharged V6 like the GP did.

dindak · May 2003

Reg : Hate the Camry, ugly. Don't like the Accord sedan much, love the Accord coupe though, beautiful. As I've said before, I've owned lots of other brands in the past so don't label me as your argument.

orwoody : I'm hoping Pontiac wakes up this year and offers better cloth for next year. I think the whole cloth thing is a plot to sell leather though.

regfootball · May 2003

it probably is a plot, that's a good point.

richm4 · May 2003

In the past couple of weeks, two different people have complimented me on the new look of the 2004 GTP, and they commented that it looked like a CTS. I thought that was rather strange.

vcjumper · May 2003

The 04 GTP seems like pretty much a full size vehicle, CTS looks small in comparison. They overlap each other in price though.

ruski · May 2003

the rear view has the same "shoulders" as CTS

oldsman01 · May 2003

As I mentioned before, many brands seem to be using pretty cheap cloth in their cars these days. My guess is it is a plot they are all using to get customers to buy leather. On the GP, my guess is somebody at the last minute noticed the cloth was pretty bad and decided to include the heated seats with the leather rather than making them an option knowing that in northern climates, many people do not want leather because of the cold. Come on Pontiac, some cloth that is as good as the previous GP's is all were(or at least some) are asking for.

dindak · May 2003

richm4 : Maybe these people had just seen the new Matrix movie which has about 50 GM cars in it including the CTS. I don't see any resemblance though.

oldsman : Heated seats are key with leather up here. I think I may go for it next time as it's easier to clean kid's messes (or dad's for that matter). I would not say the cloth is cheap though, it's just a matter of bad patterns.

hammen2 · May 2003

I'll never buy another car without leather. Easier to clean, feels better than cloth (no static zaps), etc.

Here's an article/commentary from the Detroit News, where Paul Lienert discusses the possibility of Opel coming back to the U.S., and he contrasts two of Opel's new vehicles (esp. interior) with the new Grand Prix and revised Sunfire:

http://www.detnews.com/2003/insiders/0305/21/insider-171179.htm

FYI,

--Robert

dan165 · May 2003

I am not wild about the cloth, but I don't mind it and the seats are EXTREMELY comfortable which to me is much more important. GP has about the best seating position and comfort I have seen in it's class. While leather would be nice, it's not one of the more important things. I'd rather spend the money on a sun roof or a better stereo.

The GP looks nothing like the CTS unless you are nearly blind.

montanafan · May 2003

Are we confusing "cheap" with "poor pattern" choices. I agree that the Sunfire interior is horrendous, probably the reason sales are off 25%+. Atleast you can fold down the rear seat to cover the back. The Grand Prix also is not the most hansome pattern. Never understood why the manufacturers felt there should be patterns and even more why the cloth needs names. And at least we know how much time Mr, Lienert spent inside the Grand Prix if he thinks the DIC is just an odometer.
Keep in mind the GM 24hr test drive for all you who are questioning the car. Take it and post back.

ab348 · May 2003

Mr. Lienert's impressions are exactly the same as mine. For a while I thought that maybe Canadian GPs were getting a different dash or plastic quality than those that have been reviewed elsewhere or seen by folks here. Now I know I my impressions of the poor quality GP interior are not alone. It is shockingly unimpressive for an otherwise good car.

As for the plot to sell leather, that is a risky strategy. This is a very competitive class and forcing leather on people may well cost them sales by making the price uncompetitive. No, I think the geniuses that run GM and design their interiors think that people actually like this stuff. How far they have fallen compared to a few decades ago when GM interiors were the class of the field.

dindak · May 2003

"shockingly unimpressive"

evandro · May 2003

The reporter just forgot to say that a sub-4m car as the Meriva would find very few, if any, buyers on this side of the Atlantic. And perhaps he had one too many schnaps stating the Signum interior is in any way more refined than the GP's... Then again, he might have driven a high-end version, as journalists often do, with faux-wood and a $2000 navigation system...

Having visited Opel's factory near Frankfurt last year where the new Vectra is made, I just can't understand the hype... I guess that some think that any junk, as long as from Europe, is fashionable... ;-)

sda · May 2003

Just looked and sat in a new GT2. It was garnet red (I didn't note the proper name of the color) with dark leather interior w/sunroof. It looked sharp. Tasteful, refined, yet masculine. The front seats were very comfortable, and I found finding my seating position very easy. All the controls seemed logical and well laid out. I was surprised at how low the bottom of the back seat cushion is. As it is, unless you are very short (I'm only 5'8"), there is no thigh support with the cushion so low. Otherwise the back seemed roomy enough. I like to overall versatility of the interior: folding rear seats as well as the folding front passenger seat. Salesperson quickly began to high pressure me, so my intent on driving it got nixed. I didn't want hear him drone on and on and try to close me. Since I'm not in the market, no real loss. If it drives well I could see being satisfied with the GP. Price seemed competitive, too.

ab348 · May 2003

"Please give it up?" One could say the same about your constant GM cheerleading, my friend. The interior is a big disappointment; many have noted the problem, not just me. For you to deny there is any issue is simply absurd. Even you, in your more lucid moments, are forced to concede that perhaps there is a plot to sell more leather seats by making the standard offering so offensive to many.

As I write this a beautifully restored '65 Impala convertible just rolled past my window. In those days GM knew how to design an eye-pleasing interior. Not any more. For a company that was once the leader, their current offerings are... I hate to say it, "shockingly unimpressive."

vcjumper · May 2003

Seems ok (though vents and stereo hvac look cheap to me and cloth is juvenile) on the lower model GP's, but the Comp-G is in the same class as entry level TL-S, CTS, G35, etc price wise when I checked it out.

dindak · May 2003

My point is, you have made the same comment 10 times (hence my comment to give it up). Why are you still here if you hate the car so much?? I don't understand. While I certainly respect your opinion, you posts are all the exact same comment over and over trashing the car.

I have said many times I don't care for the seat patterns and the bubble. Otherwise I REALLY like the car and the dash and the rest of the interior. I haven't had time to test yet, but i will in June.

johnclineii · May 2003

YOU haven't driven the car and yet YOU dismiss the comments of those of us who have?

Seems to me that you need to drive first, THEN tell us about YOUR comments.

Meanwhile, let others speak.

I have. With my wallet.

I ain't buying one for mostly the reasons that have been stated here. GM needs to know that.

We who do not like the interior are hardly alone.

dindak · May 2003

NEVER dismissed you or anyone, I actually said I partially agree many times. Just wish the discussion would move on to other aspects of the car, thats all.

dan165 · May 2003

You got that right. The GP form should be called the "Car seat pattern and plastics forum". It's really getting old guys. For those that don't like it, you have said your piece, lets move on. Posting the same message over and over isn't doing this forum much good!

I'll try again to move the conversation along........

Anyone out there driven a 3800 II and III back to back?

midlifecrisis · May 2003

I test drove a GT2 yesterday. I have to say the HUD and the info center really has me hooked. I am a techno gadget type of person. I drove the Sport red (maroon) with the beige leather seats. The cockpit is very nice, seats are very supportive. After driving a 03 Bonne, the GP is much more of a driver's car. My wife sat in the back, and those seats are not that great. I do not like the rear end of this car, but I may get used to it after a while. I want to get the fusion orange, but it cannot be ordered with the lighter leather seats. I like the contrast between the light leather and the black dash.

Does anybody know the 0-60 mph times for the GP and the GTP?

graphicguy · May 2003

I had a previous gen GTP (until some lunatic in an Acura "t-boned" me).

I would say the prev GTP did 0-60 in mid 6s. I test drove the GT and would estimate 0-60 to be in the mid to high 7s.

The new ones should probably shave a tenth or two from those numbers.

dindak · May 2003

I drove a Bonneville a couple of years ago and it was fine, but I didn't like the interior much and the car felt a bit too big. The GP is a good size and the new upgrades should easily make it a better handling car.

Once my exam is over next week I will take some time and test one.

midlifecrisis · May 2003

Checked out the SS today, but did not drive one. I've heard they are real slow. How can that be if they have the same engine as the GP, with same HP ratings and about the same weight?

ab348 · May 2003

Dindak, I need to stay here to counterbalance you... ;-)

The comments are appropriate, given the much-ballyhooed arrival of Lutz and his purported abilities to revitalize GMs car line. If the GP is any indication, he has fallen flat on his face. Trust me, nobody is more disappointed than I am. I wanted to like this car and had every intention of giving it serious buying consideration. The interior has dashed those hopes. The comments of Mr. Lienert, one of the more credible writers on the auto scene in Detroit, were dismissed by a few here as off-the-wall. I wanted to state that they were not.

I think GM may have a serious issue developing here. None of their new-car introductions for the last year has been generally well-received, from the flop that is the Ion to the mixed reviews of the CTS and now the GP. How many chances will Lutz get?

evandro · May 2003

Her review actually praises the interior and... (GASP!) doesn't mention the plastic knobs! :-)

But I agree with you that GM has to get its game together or else...

I'm still to see a new GP here in Texas. I've already seen ogres of Porsche Cayennes :-P, but no GPs yet...

sdiori · May 2003

Wow...didn't know that we were still debating an old issue!

We all know that GM has been guilty of shortchanging their customers with interior bits. That's obvious. But I really feel that they've made a step in the right direction with the latest GP.

After driving the car, I was definetly hooked. There's performance written all over the GTP...and I squeezed all 260 ponies out the 3800.

With that being said, I will note that were things that were quite peculiar before and after driving the GTP. The first would be a loud "clunk" noise that seemed to repeat itself when I opted to turn on the air conditioning. Weird, huh? The salesman's reply? "That's with all new cars!" Yeah. Right. The second would be the ASTRONOMICAL gap under the dash. I couldn't believe that GM is still leaving areas that large untouched.

In the end, I was almost ready to forgive all the flaws after the ride. Very exhilirating to say the least. ALMOST is the key word.

dindak · May 2003

midlife : Current SS does NOT have the supercharger. The 04 SS will. That said, it will be short about 10hp from the GTP.

ab348 : CTS has had great reviews over all. I'll give you the ION though. The GP reviews I've seen so far have been good though, even Edmunds liked it. Obviously you you must have some interest in the car if you keep coming back here, otherwise I can't understand your presence.

johnclineii · May 2003

Actually it will be short 20 hp compared to the Gen III.

orwoody · May 2003

I have owned a 2000 GTP and currently have a 2003 GT. I drove both the 2004 GT2 and GTP. They both feel/are quicker than my 2003 and feel as good, maybe a tad better than the 2000GTP. I did notice that power delivery and control are better with the 2004's. My decision to buy the 2003 was first economics(almost $8k of MSRP) and I have some reservations about some of the 2004 styling/features of the interior.
As for those still thrashing on the seat cloth and stuff... I suggest gong to the Pontiac website and sending them comments. I have several times - on the lack of auto climate control, lack of interior color choices, cloth choices, wheels, etc... I've gotten some eMails back, so somebody is reading the inputs..

regfootball · May 2003

well john, you know the marketing geeks have to make sure that a CHEVY won't have more hp than a pontiac....then they couldn't try to maintain some artificial tiered Alfred E sloan price structure.

ab348 · May 2003

Dindak: I wouldn't call the CTS reviews great overall. Many have commented on the styling and relative lack of power. I agree it is not a bad car overall, but not great.

As for my presence here, I think it is more easily explained than yours in places like the Accord board.

dindak · May 2003

ab348 : Why? I'm not bashing the Accord. It's a nice car aside from the rear styling. I would consider one in the future. CTS styling is subjective and power issue is addressed for 04. Car has sold well ahead of projections.

orwoody : GREAT ADVICE! Complain to Pontiac, it's not like people here make any decisions.

Reg : It is kind of odd isn't it?

dan165 · May 2003

You seem like a very anti-GM kind of guy. CTS is a fantastic car and the reviews I have see have also been very good. Whether you like the Grand Prix or not, you should at least take an 04 for a spin. I also think you should also e-mail Pontiac, orwoody's idea makes more sense than posting your complaints here all the time. I tend to disagree with most of your comments though.

orwoody, thanks for the post, most refreshing. The 3800 III seems very peppy to me. Maybe I'll do some 0-60 timing in a parking lot this weekend and report back. We have dual zone in our SUV so I'm not too concerned about the lack of it in our GP. That said, I'm not sure why it's gone from the 04 either. Another question to Pontiac I suppose.

Maybe I'll do some 0-60 timing in a parking lot this weekend

ab348 · May 2003

Dan165, no, not anti-GM at all. I am just very disappointed time and time again at their lack of ability to compete against the best in the automobile market. They used to be the best. Now they are barely worth considering. I am frustrated by their continual screw-ups.

dialn24 · May 2003

Hello all. I am a new poster and would like to share what I have heard from others on the 04 Grand Prix. There seems to be a lot of complaining about the interior fabric choice with cloth seats. This opinion does seem to be shared with quite a few people I have talked with about this car.

The first 04 Grand Prix I saw was a black GT-1 and I was not impressed at all. I just couldn't get past the material that was being used. As far as the exterior styling, I did like that quite a bit. However, I wasn't so sure I would be too interested in the car. I was debating between getting a 04 Grand Prix or waiting for the supercharged SS Monte Carlo in the fall. So, I kind of thought about that and then decided to take one of these for a spin. The first car I drove was the GT-1. I thought it was okay, but not something I would want to really spend money on. I then drove a GT-2 with leather and a sunroof. I liked that quite a bit better and was thinking that I would be interested in one of these, but not at the expense of not at least waiting for the SS in the fall.

At this point, I decided to drive an 03 Monte Carlo. I just mainly wanted to compare the interior feeling, the steering, etc. when the 04 GP was fresh in my mind. To me, there was no comparison. The Grand Prix just felt better and I really liked the feel of the interior compared to the wide feeling of the Monte (not to mention the 20 more HP that the Grand Prix will have over the Monte SS).

I then saw a Silver GTP that had leather, a sunroof, premium audio, info tech, and chrome wheels. I had to take it for a spin. It didn't take me long to realize that this was the car for me. I personally like the interior with leather quite a bit, but just couldn't stand the pattern in the cloth seats. I almost thought about waiting for a comp-G to check it out before I bought this one, but then kind of thought why since I liked this car so much. I could really care less about TapShift anyway (I have since driven a Comp-G and feel like I definitely made the right choice)

I guess all I am saying is that I think the complaints about the cloth seats are valid. I do think GM made a mistake with this choice. However, I do like this car quite a bit better then the 03. Granted that is my opinion and not meant to say anything bad about that car because it is a nice car, I just prefer the feel and the look of the 04 better.

Needless to say, I haven't thought twice about purchasing the GTP and am more then ecstatic with my new car.

Take care all!

oldsman01 · May 2003

Drive a CTS if you haven't already! It competes VERY well with similar cars. In fact, it is currently one of the best cars GM has to offer. Styling of coarse is subjective, but that is sometimes a risk you take. For years Cadillac has been criticized for "playing it safe" with the styling so I'm glad they did something bold. And the CTS seems to be selling well(without big discounts) so I guess some people must like it. And if it has a lack of power, that will change next year with a new 260 hp V6 and also the super hot 400 hp CTS-V. I'll say, with the GTP Comp-G hitting the 30K mark, it might be worth a stretch to get a base model CTS, especially next year's model with the new V6. Although me thinks that a loaded GTP actually sells below that 30K MSRP.

ab348 · May 2003

Oldsman, I never said the CTS was a bad car, just that it got mixed reviews. Most of the write-ups commented on the styling (which I am not crazy about, but could live with), the engine (due to be changed as you say) and the dash (which isn't horrendous, but could be better). But you make an interesting point re. it versus the GP. Here in Canada the CTS starts at just over $40K less any incentives that may be out there. The GP GT1s I looked at (without any options) are $30K and being new there are no incentives yet. Move up the line and the pricing inches toward CTS territory. If you were determined to buy a GM product then I agree the CTS would be a better choice than a similarly-priced GP.

dan165 · May 2003

ab348 and anyone else who can get a copy of the Saturday Toronto Star, do so. There is a huge article in there this morning where Jim Kenzie who initially didn't like the GP much was invited down personally by Bob Lutz to spend the afternoon with him to compare an 04 Maxima with an 04 GP GTP.

Results?? The GP squarely beat or matched the Maxima in every performance test. While Bob conceded the GP was not quite as refined because it's sitting on an older platform, there is no question this car rocks! Good marks were also given for quality and lack of squeaks and rattles.

ab348, the seat material may not be to your taste, but the car itself is good. You have to test one before you keep dumping on the car. There is nothing "screwed up" here, it's as plain as that. It's a fantastic piece of machinery and perhaps if you complain to Pontiac direct, they will change the material on the seats for you next year!

p.s. Great picture of Bob and Jim arm wrestling on the cover, very funny.

rayainsw · May 2003

"Just left the track with my Comp G and ran a 14.135@100mph stock"

Sorry - I have been away for a few days . . .

First: Excellent time!

What was your 60 foot time?
Did you turn off the traction control?
Did you do anything desides nail the throttle?
Cheers,
- Ray
Who wonders what the various magazine 0-60 and quarter mile times will be . . .?

dindak · May 2003

Saw that article, it was great. Amazing how much pull Jim has over Bob Lutz!

Bottom line IMO was, Grand Prix will give you more performance than Maxima or V6 Accord but you sacrifice a little in the refinement department. Seemed like Jim was impressed over all.

I still think that with this this car you get an average or better interior (base seats excluded) with a beautiful exterior and wicked performance. I can't wait to test one, it will be my next dealership visit in June.

Maxima isn't the greatest looking car from the outside, but the inside is interesting (though Honda does it better with less clutter). Wouldn't mind trying one someday also.

regfootball · May 2003

"squarely beat or matched the Maxima in every performance test"

so it probably pulls better numbers......but overall, what did they say? We already know in terms of interior quality the Maxima is a definte step above and the exterior looks better as well. Traditionally Maximas have much better quality over the long haul as well. And I'd bet the VQ Nissan mill was much more refined too.

Then there's the issue of the Mazda6 generally being a nicer car overall than either of the two for less money.

regfootball · May 2003

"We put countless hours into making this car the very best it could be"

So is that an admittance that they intended to put cheap plastic in it?

oldsman01 · May 2003

I saw an 04 Maxima yesterday and was not impressed with the styling at all. I never was a fan of the old model's looks either, but the 00-03 model is much better looking IMO. If your going the Nissan route, a loaded Altima V6 is the way to go. Loaded Maxi(04 model) top the 30K mark and at that point your in G35 and CTS(as well as others) territory.

regfootball, the 6 is a nice car and offers great value, but lacks the performance of the GTP. It's also somewhat smaller. Not a bad competitor to the base GP with those terrible cloth seats though:)

dindak · May 2003

New Max looks very bloated, old one is much nicer. Inside of the 04 is a bit strange with a lot of tiny buttons from what i remember. Looking at the pictures in the paper, the GP is definitely better looking.

Over all they came away saying the GTP out handled (especially wet) and accelerated the Max in every test and virtually tied it in braking. More performance with a little less refinement was the bottom line.

Old Max has average quality from what I remember in CR. It was slightly below GP in initial quality according to JD Power. Good but nothing special.

ctl1 · May 2003

I read the Toronto Star article with great interest since I just traded my 98 GTP for an 04 Maxima SE. Besides the Max, I test drove the 04 comp GTP, Acura TLS, Altima 3.5 SE, and the Infiniti G35. The article was right on target, though I think a better comparison would have been the Max SE with its stiffer suspension, 18" rims, and 5sp AT, rather than the SL version. The acceleration numbers would have been closer, though the GTP would probably still be faster. The GTP is faster off the line, but the Max has better midrange acceleration, i.e. freeway passing. I agreed with the handling comment, "Grand Prix tended to understeer, or plow. Benign and stable, but not as entertaining." The Max also has a smoother more refined feel, both in handling and in the interior. Hopefully, I'll never encounter the "split-mu" test, but give GM points for a good ABS system. All in all, I would not have been unhappy with the 04 comp GTP, I simply preferred the added refinement of the Max. The 04 GTP interior does seem to have a better fit and finish than my 98 GTP, though some decontenting has occurred with auto climate control and photochromic rear view mirror no longer available. Its good to see a good result from JD Powers in the "squeak and rattle" category, but I would reserve judgemnet until a few years down the road. My 98 GTP came without any squeaks or rattles, but over the years, I have found myself stuffing nooks and crannies on the dash and doors with foam to quell these annoyances. Hopefully, during my next car search, Pontiac will have a GXP model available.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/L- ayout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&am- p;cid=1052251633588

ab348 · May 2003

Well, that article was interesting. Personally I can't see too many Maxima buyers even considering a GP simply because of the fleet-car stigma that is still attached to it, but they do compete price-wise at the upper end of the GP range, so maybe some do even though the Max carries far more status and cachet. As the article says, the GTP is all about performance at the expense of everything else. That seems likely to limit their market somewhat, but hey, whatever. That seems to be Lutz's strategy. Unfortunately the lower-line versions are simply too expensive for the level of trim and refinement offered.

My favorite quote was this one, from Lutz:
"We have made great improvements, in things like graining of the plastics and some of our fabrics, but we admit we have a way to go to get to a world-class level."

Funny that he should mention the two things that are the biggest turn-offs about the car. Setting aside the question of how anyone could consider that fabric an improvement, they know there's a problem, but can't seem to do anything about it. How can they explain that away? If they know that's a problem, why don't they fix it? This is what drives me nuts about GM. I'd have to conclude that the bean-counters still carry far too much influence there. The fabric and plastics wouldn't cost much to do right, but once again the GM cost accountants shoot themselves in the foot. If those two things were better I might have a GP in my driveway already. As it is, it's not even on my list.

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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