Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

montanafan · February 2004

Maybe the reviewer wasn't refering to the discontinued Grand Prix SE but the "cladded" Grand Prix GT/GTPs of the 1997-2003 Generation.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

I don't think your argument holds water. Have you ever read owner reviews of a bad car? People are brutally honest when they buy a car they didn't like. They are not worried about justifying the cost of the car. It is human nature to shout the LOUDEST when things are not going well.

And besides, I'm not referring to a score an owner gives in some arbitrary rating. I'm referring to owners on this forum who have driven their car for several months, who can give objective opinions and details about certain aspects of a vehicle's handling, power, quality, etc. That info is much more valuable than some reviewer who is comparing different cars.

Yes, some of that info is useful when comparing models, especially if you don't have the time to test drive 20 different cars. I do read the reviews and other specification data on the internet before I even start a search for a new car. But the best info is obtained from people that already own the vehicle. I don't care whether a reviewer thinks a certain curve in the dashboard is awkward. That's useless superfluous information to me.

Half of the what the reviewer writes down is a rehash from the manufacturer's claims anyway. "Pontiac says the chassis is 35% stiffer...". In the other half they are trying to be cute or overly sarcastic to make a name for themselves.

evandro · February 2004

That's "miniskirts", not cladding. You know, like Acura, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc, use. Of course, whatever these brands cough up is praised as the ultimate in refinement and taste, even when their cars have peanut shaped headlights! ;-)

montanafan · February 2004

"Cladding" is the generic term the press used for anything Pontiac applied to the side of its cars. When used by other manufactures it goes by names such a "moldings", "protective trim", "style highlights" or even "mini-skirts". So I believe the reviewer used it properly. It can also be found used the same way in Pontiac press releases when the 2004 was announced.

spartanmann · February 2004

I was referring to the arbitrary use of numbers. I didn't post them - I was just responding to the previous pointless comparison between them. However you are mixing up some more apples and oranges when you claim owners are more critical when they don't like something about a car. Owners are very critical of lousy reliability and dealer service and will holler greatly about it. I think that is what you are referring to. But who buys a brand new car and complains about how lousy it is to own? Why would they have bought it to start with? Owner new car evaluations are almost always glowing as the flaws noted by reviewers are not a concern to the Owner. If they were, they would have bought something else. Owner criticism comes later down the road when they find out how much quality (or lack thereof) was designed into the vehicle. That reflects directly on resale value.

racer17v · February 2004

Let's get back to the topic here, folks....

midlifecrisis · February 2004

I think I understand more specifically what you are saying now and at least partially agree. So let's get back to the topic at hand, since I seemed to have unintentionally hijacked it - ooops.

My opinion on the GP:

Is it a good car? Yes

Does it lead its class? No. It is an average car. Unless you buy the GTP model, and some of the performance is at the top of its class.

Is it a good overall value? Yes. I bought my GT2 model with leather and HUD for around $22K with all the incentives. I moved up from a Grand Am, but still lowered my monthly payment and reduced from a 5-year to a 4-year loan. The car has a big 3.8L engine with decent power, and still gets 25-28 mpg on a regular basis. I get a decent amount of performance and a good bit of luxury with all the options and leather interior.

Does it have "issues"? Yes, including a low, flat and poorly padded back seat, headlight flutter and some other minor issues that I have not encountered, but others have.

Is it good looking? I think so, but that is a personal preference and part of why I bought the car. Others may think it not the greatest looking.

dialn24 · February 2004

I will chime in on my opinion of my 04 Grand Prix GTP. It's got pretty much every option available, but I will be criticial on what I think. I personally love the car, but I don't think a "perfect" car exists in this price range. As far as the editor's scores on this site alone, I don't buy it. Heck, look at the average scores for American cars and then for Japanese cars down the board. It's obvious a bias exists, because there are some very boring Japanese cars to look at, drive, and they even have some of the supposed faults the American cars have, but for them, it's a plus (interior design for one). In my opinion, car reviews by non-owners are nothing more then a joke. However; I will totally agree on one subject, owners typically do review their cars (or any products) higher then they probably deserve. At the same time, the owners that aren't happy for one reason or another, will give it lower scores. What does that mean, with the GP scores on this site as high as they are, there are a heck of a lot more owners that are quite happy with the car and that is the most important thing. Like someone else said, I will be much more attentive to an owner's review over a writer's opinion with only 1 to 2 days of experience in the car. Anyway, here are what I perceive as positives and negatives of the car:

Positives:
3800 Engine. Say what you will about older technology, but this is a great engine with a good history, acceleration, handling, fun to drive, great looking, not a mere 'A to B' car that quite a few cars fall into (base Altima is one), feel, wind noise, cockpit interior design, stereo, options available, and performance.

Negatives:
Rear seat comfort (doesn't affect me), kind of loud for engine noise, ride can be bumpy, no rear cupholders (not affected), some options not available that should be in this price range (some of these ommissions are huge for what my car sticker for: dual climate control, heated mirrors, automatic climate control, and an autodimming mirror).

alan34 · February 2004

Are there any good deals in Canada on the Grand Prix GT2?
Has any one heard of any incentives to get current Gm leasees into a new car before their lease is up. A Saturn dealer told me that Gm will allow people to bring their cars back if their lease is up between now and Dec 2004 with no penalty. Could this be true ?

midlifecrisis · February 2004

When I was looking at the GP, I just could not get over the fact that it had no rear cupholders. Even my Grand Am had something that popped out from the back of the center console. At the time I thought it was a major goof by Pontiac, and was one of the reasons I was still considering an 03 model.

But after 6 months, there may have been one or two times that we could have used them for the kids - no big deal. But I don't take long family trips in the GP - we use our other vehicle for that.

I do take many trips to drive to meetings, etc with adults in the backseat. I mention that the seat is not that great and nearly everyone says "What's the problem? It is fine for me."

dialn24 · February 2004

I thought this was a mistake myself. However; I have read a bulletin by GM that indicates future car production will include rear cupholders. I don't remember when they are supposed to start seeing them at the dealership though.

I thought of another thing that bugs me. The stock exhaust tips on the Grand Prix are pretty bad. They don't look good at all and are almost impossible to keep looking good. I don't have the extra cost chrome exhaust tips on there right now, but I do intend to spend the money to put these on sometime shortly. I have been way too busy to go to a dealership, so I just am not sure how much they cost at this point.

evandro · February 2004

I myself don't pay attention to anyone's review, but mine. As the sole vested part making the payments, my review is the only one that matters.

I learned it with my father. He once bought a car that everybody and their dog, in the press or outside it, would rate it as a pile of junk. It happened to be the best car he's ever had. The bad rap came from its 1st generation, but the 2nd was solid.

I do ask owners about the major problems they've had and about the car's most evident virtues and vices. Then I drive paying attention to that and make up my mind. That's why when I was in the market for a used car, I got an Intrigue: I knew its Achile's heels, but also its virtues, many of them.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

I think they cost around $150 on gmpartsdirect.com - not sure about shipping cost

evandro · February 2004

I'd like to replace those on my Bonneville with them. Anyone has their part #?

TIA

etcb · February 2004

The March R&T incorrectly responded to a readers inquiry whether regular gas is alright to use is a 04 GTP. Here is ther answer.

SO can these engines be safely operated on regular fuel? Only to a limited degree. With the Pontiac it should be kept out of boost when regular is in the tank and premium should be rum whenever possible.. Think of this low-octane tolerance as a convenience measure for shuttling from one gas station to the next when premium fuel is temporarily no available.

Evidently the person who wrote that is misguided.

GM claims that the new refine 3.8 for 04 is design with closer tolerances to run regular fuel.

etcb · February 2004

I disagree with your comments. Go look at the customer satisfaction numbers for the Toyota Camry. They are lower than the numbers given by the talking heads. Just an anomaly? I dont think so. I own a 04 GTP and a 02 Camry. If Camry is so wonderful, then why didn't I run out and buy another one. In my opinion the Camry is way overrated by the press! I wonder how much Toyota pays advertisers to impress the unwary car buyer.

carguy58 · February 2004

The last generation Camry was good. The new one I don't like. The interior I'm not feeling it. I could understand while the last one sold well but the new one I don't get it. I'll give Toyota credit they have lots of accomplishments like their Lexus line and the Supra was a cool car. The Camry has positives like a room interior, easy access and entry. They need to upgrade the interior.

dan165 · February 2004

C A M R Y

I can not think of a car I would less like to own. Well built and holds it's value YES. Otherwise I see it only as a japanese Buick.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

This is an "apples vs oranges" argument as well. A Camry should be compared against a Buick Century or Ford Taurus or Chevy Malibu, not a Grand Prix. There is NOTHING sporty about a Camry, it is basic transportation.

evandro · February 2004

Yes, that's a typical comment for R&T (or any American car-magazine).

However, GM doesn't promise the same power from that engine burning regular. You can count on delayed spark timing to avoid knock in WOT.

dan165 · February 2004

I think the GP and Camry are directly comparable. I looked at both when shopping and I am sure i am not alone.

Any midsize sedan can be cross shopped. Camry just happens to be about the dullest thing on the market next to the Century.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

Pontiac is supposed to be the "sport" division of GM. Thus I believe a Camry is more like an Impala or Malibu. Then again, Impala has a SS model. So there are some inconsistencies in GM's delineation of its companies. Nonetheless, I don't believe Camry can be advertised as a sporty car. The commercial where the guy is doing donuts on an empty city street are absolutely absurd.

Well, at least we agree about how dull the Camry is.

evandro · February 2004

Well, the marketers may see the Camry and the GP on two sides of a chasm, but at least I as a customer look at all mid-size cars in that price range. I prefer sporty cars, but I can live with a understated one if it's got a decent engine, a sleeper.

carguy58 · February 2004

The Grand Prix would probably be cross hopped against the Mazda 6 and Nissan Altima. The Camry and Accord are always cross-shopped with each other. The Passat would be crossed shopped with the Camry and accord I think.

evandro · February 2004

Well, that's what the marketers wish... When I bought my Bonneville in '01, I checked out all of them: GP, Altima, Accord, Camry, etc. I bought the one that was the most bang for my buck and puts a smile on my face in my daily commute: both driving it and when I'm approaching it. ;-)

etcb · February 2004

Which is better for the blower motor? I perfer to booost!!!!!!!!!!

Glad GTP Owner
04 GTP Graystone.. Varooom!~ See Ya in my rear view!

dan165 · February 2004

"The commercial where the guy is doing donuts on an empty city street are absolutely absurd".

Ya, no kidding. Toyota is dreaming on that one.

johnclineii · February 2004

etcb, the supercharger performs best with premium fuel...

lidoshuffle · February 2004

I changed the fuel filter and spark plugs, but it still stalls at every red light and even if I coast on the freeway the engine chokes. Any ideas on what to try next? I don't have the cash to bring it to a repair place. Thanks.

evandro · February 2004

Spark-plugs wires?

HTH

chrisjericho · February 2004

It could also be the oxygen sensor. Although usually you get a check engine light that comes one as well.

lidoshuffle · February 2004

I changed the fuel filter and spark plugs, but it still stalls at every red light and even if I coast on the freeway the engine chokes. Any ideas on what to try next? I don't have the cash to bring it to a repair place. Thanks.

lidoshuffle · February 2004

I hit reload and that must have done it.

pat · February 2004

Heh lidoshuffle, you didn't do a THING that all of us haven't done at one time or another. Yes, a reload right after posting a message will make the message repost. The best way to refresh the page after posting is to use the "Recent Msgs" link on the page bar.

But not to worry - we all have the ability to delete our own messages. Check out the blue buttons to the right of the title of your message (assuming, of course, that you are logged in) - and there ya go!

:-)

tateos · February 2004

Direct from GM, re the L32 engine in our 2004 GTPs:

EATON GEN V SUPERCHARGER
The 3800 Series III SC is fitted with the most-sophisticated supercharging technology available: the segment-exclusive Eaton Gen V supercharger. So equipped, the 3800 Series III gives the 2004 Grand Prix class-leading output and acceleration, with the overall drivability or flexibility that sport sedan and coupe buyers expect over a broad rpm range.

The 90-cubic inch Gen V supercharger is very compact. Its housing includes the throttle-body adaptor, crankcase ventilation plumbing, coolant passages, the evaporative emissions purge valve and the rotor drive mechanism. The drive mechanism is sealed and permanently lubricated, obviating the need for oil connections and eliminating a potential source of leaks. Moreover, the Gen V features all-cast components and a larger, low-restriction outlet port. The tuned inlet port is also less restrictive, compared to previous-generation superchargers, allowing a larger (75 millimeter) throttle body. As a result, more air is pumped by the supercharger through the Series IIIs induction system. The Gen Vs rotor is finished with Abraidbable Powder Coating (APC) rather than epoxy. APC is a patented material containing graphite that is electrostatically applied to the rotor and baked on. As a result, the rotor requires less clearance within the supercharger housing, resulting in less leakage around its edges, greater airflow at a given operating speed and lower operating temperature. The Gen Vs rotor bearings have been enlarged to increase durability and reduce operating noise and vibration.

As a result, the Gen V operates at considerably higher efficiency than its predecessors. At wide open throttle, the Gen V turns at 700 fewer rpm (a 9 percent reduction), draws 13 percent less power from the crankshaft, decreases operating temperature 15 percent and increases volumetric efficiency 9 percent. For the customer, that means a 9 percent increase in horsepower (see product specifications), and best-in-class acceleration times for the Grand Prix. Moreover, the 3800 Series III SC does not require premium fuel, and even with regular it produces as much power as the Series II. A Grand Prix owner might use regular for workweek commuting, then fill with premium for more spirited, enthusiast-style driving on the weekend.

Link to the page for additional detailed info:

http://media.gm.com:8221/division/powertrain/products/engine/carengines/2004/2004%20L32A.doc

midlifecrisis · March 2004

I guess this topic has slid over into oblivion.....

tateos · March 2004

midlifecrisis:

Yours is the first post since mine on 2/20. This was a lively board - what happened?

icvci · March 2004

They were forced to sit in the backseat. : )

bigdaddycoats · March 2004

13132 sales in Feb. Pretty good. 43% increase this year so far. Maybe people are starting to like this car??

midlifecrisis · March 2004

Where does one find such good data? I've been noticing quite a few GPs on the roads the last month or so. Of course, none are fusion orange like mine.....

tateos · March 2004

Mine is! Actually it's my wife's car.

The GTP is a nice car, but I still prefer my '97 Eldorado Touring Coupe. I am surprised to find that 7 years later, the 2004 GTP has a noticably inferior build and materials quality to my '97. Sure, it's a Pontiac vs. a Cadillac, but it seems like it wouldn't cost any more to do things right, once you have discovered how to do it. For what it's worth, we also considered the Cadillac CTS and found it didn't seem any better than the GTP (the Seville and Deville seemed noticably better built). My wife preferred the GTP over the CTS, in fact (she thought it seemed more solid), and for ~10K less, that is what we ended up with. She loves it.

I do like the Fusion Orange Metallic color, but sometimes I wish it were a little more orange, and a little less copper.

bigdaddycoats · March 2004

http://www.autonews.com/datacenter.cms

oogilieorang04 · March 2004

100% agree - I ordered the car sight unseen last March and the color swatch in the brochure was a bright orange. I like this color OK, but would have preferred it to be lighter and brighter - like the SoLo 97 GP (if you're familiar with that).

midlifecrisis · March 2004

We meet again! I think the color of the car varies considerably, depending on the available light and cleanliness of the car. After a nice wash and wax, and with bright sunlight, the FOM really will blind you!

pat · March 2004

Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004 Survey is posted and ready for your input!

oogilieorang04 · March 2004

That's right, mlc - I had shown the color difference in the "camo" post on the other forum - I guess everyone was so busy retching over the rear PONTIAC they physically couldn't respond to the color variance pictures :-(

evandro · March 2004

How can I vote when the GP is in no category??? These categories are quite weird: what's a Maxima doing side-by-side a CTS??? Or what's an SRX doing along side a Tahoe???

pat · March 2004

Evandro - the editors are not very likely to see your questions and comments here. Click on one of the Help links (at the top and the bottom of the page) and then on the "Contact Us" tab to pass on your thoughts. Then let us know what you hear.

Also, you (or others here) might want to participate in the rest of the survey whether or not the GP is listed...

tek3 · March 2004

I have to agree with evandro, what's the point of a survey that excludes one of the most popular American sedans? I'll pass.

cigsmh · March 2004

I have just bought used GT 2001 with 30 000 miles and price is 15000 CAD.
I have got CARFAX report and it says that this car had at least 3 owners ???
Dealer told me that all their cars came from GM Auction of leased cars. Is that possible that leased car can have 3 registered owners?
I have also noticed that date of first registration was October 2002 ?( car is 2001 ),
then 1 year later it was second registration ( second owner) and 1 month later third one. So I am forth owner in this case.
I have no idea what to do? They want to sell me an extended warranty, which I can't afford to by.
I am going today to get this car - unless you guys can recommend me something else to do.

Thank you

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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