Toyota Prius (First Generation)

paul34b · July 2003

In a letter from Toyota there was a choice of three option packages for those who ordered via the internet the first time around and have been offered that option again. The selections are: #1 Rear wiper only (ohhh boy) =$20,175, #2 Rear Wiper, side&curtain airbags, smart entry & start, HID/Fog lamps/VSC=$22,250 and #3 all of the above plus Security System/garage door opener, JBL 9-speaker premium audion system w/6-CD changer, Nav System $25,240. BUT for those who wait and purchase this Fall, like one would do with any other vehicle, there will be other options to select from. About 7 options where you are just pickin "a-la-carte".

paul34b · July 2003

"The navigation system package includes hands-free calling capability with certain Bluetooth-enable mobile phones, and voice-command capabilities for the audio, climate-control and navigation system." This quote comes directly from Toyota. VSC by the way is Vehicle Stability Control (whatever that is supposed to do). For what Toyota is charging for the vehicle I think it is an excellent buy. I had thought the base model would have been $25k and up. They are keeping the price near the original.

little_pogi · July 2003

Using some math, I was able to extrapolate the prices for each options.
1. Rear Wiper - $180
2. Side & curtain air bags - $650
3. Smart Entry & Start - $320
4. HID/Fog Lamps/VSC - $1105
5. Security System/Garage Door Opener - $340
6. JBL 9-speaker Premium Audio Sytem w/ 6-CD Changer
- $750
7. Navigation System - $1,900

These are all MSRP. Dealer's cost are definitely less than these.

daysailer · July 2003

is overpriced compared to other vehicles of similar performance and utility. The '04 improvements will bring it closer to parity BECAUSE Toyota is holding the line on base price. But $25K+ pushes it back, deep into financial never-never land. I suppose I'll never understand those who buy on emotion, impulse or assign high value to gadgetry unrelated to the core functions of a vehicle.

john1701a · July 2003

You likely won't ever understand based on those comments.

People buy grossly overpriced & oversized vehicles everyday. Adding $5K of high-tech goodies to a vehicle you could have driven off the lot of $20K takes full advantage of that market attitude. No one is forcing those consumers get those extras, but they do anyway.

$25K for a totally tricked out computer on wheels isn't bad at all. The unique features, like unlocking & starting the car without using a key or remote yet it still offers full security, are quite handy. Having your hands full and dealing with a heavy jacket or large purse that makes keys hard to find is a very, very, very helpful. Then you've got special safety features like HID & VSC. The built-in bluetoothed-enable cell-phone recognition will put hands-off systems to shame. And that all adds to the *DOUBLE* efficiency the $20K delivers. No other midsize sedan comes even remotely close to the 55 MPG EPA average. And it does all that while still delivering AT-PZEV emissions.

Lastly, "stealth" appeals to all those that experience it. The max of 42 MPH on nothing but electricity without the engine running is impressive in itself. The fact that the max will get increased to around 50 MPH in the 2004 will really add to the appeal.

JOHN

daysailer · July 2003

are just easily impressed.

eheading · July 2003

You think most people that are buying 30K + 4 wheel drive SUV's aren't buying on emotion?????

loconetter · July 2003

Obviously Toyota has their Prius certification for dealers, but are all the certified dealers created equal? With a relatively small profit margin on the Prius do they even want to see you coming? Finally, any suggestions for a good dealer in the N. Andover, MA or Nashua, NH area? Thanks! - Nelson

mhoffma · July 2003

What is the cargo capacity of the 2004 Prius
with the rear seat down? I cannot find this
information with the usual specifications.
With the rear seat up it is 16 cubic feet.
Passenger volume is 94 cubic feet. If it is
more than a Golf and near a that of a Matrix, I'll buy it.

quasar4 · July 2003

Uhm, if the 2004 Prius is supposed to be "...bigger in every aspect than the 2003 model," then how come the front leg room has DECREASED from 41.2" to 40.1"??!

little_pogi · July 2003

on those leg room, shoulder room, and head room. I see all those numbers but I have no idea what those measurements are for. When you say leg room, from what part of the car to the other part is being measured? Whenever I sit at the back of my sister's Prius, I have a percived ample leg room between the front seat and the back seat I'm seating on. On certain compacts, it seems my knees are being push back by the seat in front of me. Anybody familiar with these terminology, please help me out.

prisc · July 2003

Hi John,

I've been reading all the literature on the 2004 Prius I can get. You have a very informative web page with lots of great links. I'm looking forward to test driving the new Prius as soon as it becomes available. Just to set the record straight, I have a few questions for you.

1) What options do you have in your current Prius?

2) Are you planning on trading your Prius for a 2004? If so, what package did you select?

I'm trying to figure out if the NAV systems and all the other bells and gadgetry is worth the money. Daysailor does have a point, in that bumping up the price of a car by 25% above its base cost does seem a bit financial unwise.

Although I must admit I am an electrical Engineer and I do find a lot of that gadgetry to be down right fun.

As another side note, what do you think about biodiesel nd VW TDI's?

Thanks,

quasar4 · July 2003

I'm not sure if there's a standardized method of determining leg room, but I would think that each manufacturer would be consistent when measuring this dimension from one model year to the next. So whatever the measurement technique, the 2004 Prius has less leg room than the 2003 model....Bummer!! For a so-called mid-size car, it's got less leg room than my compact '90 Honda Civic!

john1701a · July 2003

> What options do you have in your current Prius?

I currently have the standard package, which is very nicely loaded but can't compare to the high-tech goodies only the 2004 Prius offers.

> Are you planning on trading your Prius for a 2004?

Yup. Then I can gather a whole collection of data for this model too.

> If so, what package did you select?

Everything!

Electric A/C, Power Windows, Power Doors, Power Mirrors, ABS (Anti-Lock Braking System), Traction Control, Tire-Pressure Monitor, Aluminum Rims, Cruise Control, Keyless Entry, Tilt Steering Wheel (with audio/climate controls built-in), 60/40 Split-Folding Rear Seat, Multi-Display, VSC (Vehicle Stability Control), Rear Wiper, Side-Curtain Airbags, Smart-Entry, Smart-Start, HID (High Intensity Discharge) Lamps, FOG Lamps, Security Alarm, Integrated Garage Door Opener, JBL 9-Speaker Premium Audio System w/6 CD Changer, Bluetooth-enabled Cell-Phone support, DVD-based GPS Navigation System

> what do you think about biodiesel nd VW TDI's?

TDI is just plain so dirty it can't compete with gasoline. Using biodiesel helps quite a bit, but it still loses the clean battle. And the environment is far more important than efficiency to me. Fortunately Prius competes head on with diesel anyway, providing virtually the same efficiency (while being significantly cleaner).

Also, the dead silence and lack of any vibration is something no engine, neither diesel nor gasoline, can compete with. Driving exclusively on electricity (up to 42 MPH in the classic Prius and even faster in the new Prius) is just plain sweet. It's absolutely fabulous in heavy commute traffic, something us daily stop & go drivers really enjoy.

JOHN

john1701a · July 2003

> 2004 Prius has less leg room

Unless you've actually sat in it, you can't be certain. The numbers don't tell the whole story.

I know someone who has sat in the 2004 already. He mentioned specifically that the steering-wheel no longer comes down as far. That allows for more sitting room without having increased the physical length.

JOHN

prisc · July 2003

One of the points that the biodiesel folks make is that the batteries on these hybrid car will just fill up the land fills and eventually have a terrible effect on the environment. Does anyone have any information/facts that can validate/rebut this ? Once a hybrid car reaches its end of useful life or gets into an accident, what portion of the battery can be recycled as apposed to being tossed into a land fill ?

Thanks.

john1701a · July 2003

The contents of the battery-pack are environmentally benign, it is totally a non-issue for NiMH. (Thank goodness.) And since the Nickel is quite valuable, it will definitely be reclaimed rather than just dumped. Most of the rest of the battery-pack can be recycled.

In short, the nightmare problems with the older (NiCd) rechargables don't exist for the hybrids.

Lastly, the battery-pack itself is rather small. Just the size of 6 loafs of bread and only 110 pounds. So salvage work isn't as difficult as those against this technology seem to imply.

And finally, the biodiesel supports make me a bit crazy. They like to push the the "mutually exclusive" concept, rather than accepting the fact that the best of both worlds are possible: a hybrid that runs on biodiesel.

JOHN

prisc · July 2003

> rather than accepting the fact that the best of both worlds are possible: a hybrid that runs on biodiesel.

Actually, one thought that I had was that Toyota, VW and Mazda should team together to create a electric/biodiesel hyrbrid with a rotary engine.

I'm sure there are some really engineering challenges to get a rotary engine to work with diesel. Also this may currently be cost prohibitive. But it does seem to be a great combination.

boxfan · July 2003

John (or anyone else),

Do you know if the side curtain airbags in the 2004 Prius extend to the back seat? I was excited that the Scion xA had them available, until I read the fine print and realized they were only for the front seat. I'm interested in protecting my kids in the back seat as much as possible (short of buying a minivan).

john1701a · July 2003

The pre-production promo photo I saw with the bags blown and the curtains dropped showed them extending the entire length of the interior.

JOHN

vl39 · July 2003

I have been concerned about leg room, too! The peliminary spec of 40.1 inches was incorrect. The info at toyota.com says the front seat leg room is 41.9 inches, which is .2 inches more than on the Avalon!

john1701a · July 2003

With a longer body than the previous model and a smaller-than-average configuration under the hood, you'd expect the resulting benefit to be very comfortable seating.

Thanks for pointing out the corrected spec.

JOHN

quasar4 · August 2003

Thanks vl39. I signed up for Prius updates in the Spring, but have yet to receive a single one --I won't hold my breath. I didn't realize that the Toyota site had updated this info along with the choice of colors. Guess I'll just have to rely on message boards for my information.

mrvadeboncoeur · August 2003

I've been getting more information on the 2004 Prius online than I have been
getting from Toyota through their "hand-raiser" program. The only info I've
gotten from them in their emails has been "hey, we updated our website" and
a (by then, old) PR release stating the base MSRP and some of the standard
features and available options.

If you look around, I'm certain that you'll find
the information that you're looking for...

quasar4 · August 2003

Other than using a bluetooth-enabled cell phone for hands-free operation, what other practical uses are there for the bluetooth-enabled Prius? Any uses other than audio? Can data be transmitted to the dash monitor for display from a bt-enabled pocket PC?

mrvadeboncoeur · August 2003

Since the Bluetooth option comes with the Navigation
system, I'd assume that you could also upload your
address book into your Navigation system as POIs or
start/destination points.

I kinda like the idea that the audio will mute itself
when receiving/placing a Bluetooth-enabled cell
phone call.

quasar4 · August 2003

Well that'd be kinda cool. Still not sure that I'd part with the extra money for a navigator system, but it'd be cool to have nonetheless. I know there are GPS navigation systems that you can buy aftermarket for your car that may cost much less, but of course aren't integrated into your car the way the Toyota factory system would be. I was thinking it would be nice if you could buy a cheap aftermarket system at your own leisure (especially if the prices keep coming down), and link it to the in-dash monitor via Bluetooth, while keeping the aftermarket unit stuck in the glovebox, thus avoiding having to mount another display to the dash, but I can see that it isn't going to be practical since BT only comes with the navigation system. By the way, does anyone have any experience with an add-on GPS navigation system? Are they pretty accurate and up-to-date? Will they tell you the quickest way to get to a destination or just the shortest way --or both? I've typed in addresses in some of the major online map providers and have been amazed at some of the wild goose chases they've suggested for me to arrive at my destination. I'd have to assume that the onboard navigation systems would be better.

quasar4 · August 2003

Will the Prius creep forward on a level surface when the foot is off the gas and the brake like a regular car? I suppose it would have to in order to prevent the car from rolling backwards when stopped on a hill when the engine is off and the brake is not engaged....right?

mrvadeboncoeur · August 2003

The current 2001-2003 Prius does simulate the
transmission creep on a traditional car. (i.e.
stopped at a stop light, take your foot off the
brake and the car will creep slowly forward) however,
if you press harder on the brake pedal, that'll
cancel out the simulated transmission creep.
(Some people don't press hard enough on the brake
when stopping, and they notice that the Prius wants
to "dance" or lurch a bit when at a stop - press
harder on the brake pedal and the electric motor
(which is simulating the transmission creep) will
stop fighting against your foot on the brake pedal.)

Depending on the hill, you may roll a bit backwards
if you don't keep your foot on the brake and then
immediately move your foot to the accelerator pedal
fast enough...

I think I read somewhere that the new 2004 Prius is
supposed to have a hill-holder feature, but I can't
seem to find that page at the moment...

quasar4 · August 2003

...thanks mrv.

Is it just me, or does the dashboard on the new Prius look like it extends for miles? I realize it's difficult to say without sitting in one, but from some of the views it reminds me of the Chevy Lumina van that had the same slanted front windshield resulting in an expansive dash and a feeling that you were sitting far back from the front of the car. Personally I prefer the feel of the Honda Civic which makes me feel like I'm sitting on the front bumper with a wide-open view of the road. One good thing I noticed is that the Toyota designers appear to have broken up the dash so it may not feel like it's one huge piece of continuous plastic stretching out before you.

tysalpha · August 2003

Transmission Creep:
I know the manual fanatics are gonna get on me for this, but I have to say that I Love Transmission Creep! It is so useful, when you look at it as a feature and use it to your advantage:

1. In stop-and-slow freeway traffic, you can just creep ahead with everyone.
2. On snowy or icy roads, instead of spinning the wheels at a stoplight, you can start by creeping, then step on the gas once the car is moving.
3. In parking garages/lots you can use the creep to pull you around curves, etc.

Definitely glad to hear the Prius has a 'simulated' creep -- forgot to ask about that before!

04 Prius Dash:
I think the main reason for the long dash is due to Toyota wanting the new Prius to have a very low coefficient of drag. It needed to have a very slanted windshield to help achieve this. However the driver might not feel *that* far away from the front bumper--since the hood is so short. I imagine sitting in the car in person won't feel as disconnected as can look in pictures.

john1701a · August 2003

> the driver might not feel *that* far away

Quite true, especially with a short hood.

Another advantage of this that is commonly overlooked is the speedometer placement. Being as far back on the dashboard as possible, you can much, much, much more easily see it. Your eyes don't have to refocus like with close-up speedometers. In fact, you don't even have to take your eyes off the road, since it is within periferal vision range.

JOHN

paul34b · August 2003

Hey folks. I have placed my order already for the 2004 Prius and am very excited but of course I am selling my 2001 model. I just wish I there was a way to determine delivery. But I guess that is a tough call. Also anyone have any experience selling on Ebay Motors? I am just trying to find out how to sell the car and when.

zeabo · August 2003

Does anyone know what kind of rims were on the '04 Prius at the 2003 NY Car Show?

pat · August 2003

I'm sorry, folks, I removed a message from a persistent solictor on these boards and also the responses.

Thanks for your understanding.

john1701a · August 2003

One of the things we've struggled with here is not having anywhere to post a photo (JPG file). That makes answering questions quite difficult, words simply aren't enough sometimes.

Is there a place on Edmunds that would allow for photo sharing?

JOHN

pat · August 2003

No, I'm sorry - we don't have any place to host photos.

zack51 · August 2003

Please briefly comment on your experiences with Prius' handling in wet snow conditions.
Thanks for sharing ;-)

john1701a · August 2003

> briefly

No problems!

Is that brief enough? After 3 winters of driving in Minnesota with my Prius, I can confidently say it's no big deal. And that's with all-season tires. Performance is even better with winter tires.

Also, with the new VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) option available on the 2004 Prius, handling on slippery roads should be even better, making it superior to traditionally equipped vehicles.

JOHN

s1gins · August 2003

Just wondering if anyone uses the Prius for a long commute to work. My commute is about 50% local roads and 50% highway. The highway portion is mostly at about 70-80 mph with some minor stop and go. What would you all suspect mileage for that type of trip be?

john1701a · August 2003

I drove 4,741 miles total in June, July, and August.

That consumed 94.908 gallons of gas. All of it was both E10 (90% gasoline, 10% ethanol) and low-sulfur.

That calculates to 49.953 MPG, which rounds evenly to 50 MPG. Yeah!

This is real-world data. Which includes 70 MPH highway driving, having the A/C on high, and (my favorite) cruising with the front windows all the way open. Most vehicles can't even claim achieving a single tank that good. My Prius delivered that performance all summer long. Hooray!!

I can't imagine what it's going to be like next summer. The improved drag-coefficient, the electric A/C, the new warming design for the emissions system, and the alterations to the engine & electrical system should really impress. Mid-50's will actually be realistic. Sweet!!!

JOHN

little_pogi · September 2003

in Japan Toyota/Toyopet dealers starting today. I've been browsing the Japanese Prius web site and found out additional interesting informations.
1. The interior comes in only 2 colors, gray and beige
2. Japanese version come with a toneau cover
3. The rear brake lights uses LED's
4. The site claims that the new prius will offer better occupant protection during an offset headon crash with a SUV with each travelling at 50kph(35mph). There's also a picture of the crash itself.
5. The site also mentions that if a person is hit by the car, the new design will offer less injuries to the person. Sorry, it did not mention anything about lesser liability on the driver's part.
6. A sportier option offers 205/45R17 tires.
7. A self parking system is available. This is a hands free system. You could literally get out of the car and let the car park itself.

(I do not read Japanese script but got these info with the help of an interpreter.}

mjcpl · September 2003

little_pogi:

Can you provide the URL for the picture of the crash?

Thanx,

mjcpl

********

little_pogi wrote:

4. The site claims that the new prius will offer better occupant protection during an offset headon crash with a SUV with each travelling at 50kph(35mph). There's also a picture of the crash itself.

mrvadeboncoeur · September 2003

Thanks to Brian West on another site for posting this:
   http://www.toyota.co.jp/company/prius/channel/vod_300k.html
   Approx. Video times of interest:
   10:45 Elec diagrams & graphs
   12:15 S-VSC wet braking test
   13:50 Dimensions & interior seat configurations
   17:00 self-parallel parking
   20:45 offset crash test
   21:10 (notice the windmills in the background)
   21:22 windtunnel test with lines of smoke to show the laminar airflow.

mrvadeboncoeur · September 2003

long download times, but the flash/shockwave
movies/animations are great:
http://toyota.broadbandgw.co.jp/prius/index.html

mjcpl · September 2003

Thank you for the links and the indexing, mrvadeboncoeur (and Brian West)!

mjcpl

little_pogi · September 2003

The crash test video shows the Prius making an offset head on crash into a mid-sized SUV. I believe the SUV was a Japanese market only Misubishi. (There are no large American SUV in Japan except for American military/diplomatic personnels.) Air bags did deploy and the dummy driver seems to suffer very little injuries. The passenger safety cage looks intact after the crash. A slow motion video was also shown of the crash. Personally, I think the Prius did a good job in protecting its occupants. The scenario may change if 2 vehicles were running at 45 mph and the SUV were an Expedition or a Tahoe. For a picture of the test, go to

www.toyota.co.jp/company/prius/safety/passiv.html

The site is best viewed using broadband. There's also a lot of cool accessories available for the Prius.

coolguyky7 · September 2003

The SUV used was a Toyota Land Cruiser Prado (similar to GX 470).

rats126 · September 2003

A year ago I traded in my 2001 Prius for a 2003 with all the options. I did get a good price for the 2003, but the trade-in price of the 2001 was just OK. The dealer said that the 2001 would be sold at auction since he claimed there wasn't much of a market for used Prius's. The '03 was in the dealer within a week so I didn't have a chance to advertise the '01 in a newspaper. Over the past year I've only seen two used '01 Prius's for sale in the newspaper and both times it was from the same dealer, not the one I was dealing with, and the price seemed to be pretty low.
Has anyone had any experience selling a used Prius and had a problem getting a decent price for it? A friend of mine just retired from a job and started selling Toyota's. He claims that the dealer he works at has a brand new Prius on the showroom floor and they can't sell it.
I love my Prius and was thinking of purchasing a 2004 but I'm not sure that I could find a buyer for the '03.

paul34b · September 2003

Just wondering if there have been any 2004 Prius sightings yet? Does anyone know if the 2004 is on the road yet or are still waiting for Octoberish for delivery?

Toyota Prius (First Generation)

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