Audi A6

marleybarr · April 2002

Mark,
As always, an excellent report detailing another important tire issue for us Audi enthusiasts! One of the main reasons I didn't purchase the 4.2 was the tire situation. I'm not sure what came stock on the'00 4.2, but I could just tell that the tire tread probably wouldn't last more than 20,000 miles. I just don't want to mess w/ winter/summer tire changeover.
The 16" Conti's on my '00 2.7T are quiet at all speeds in my opinion, seem to be wearing well @ 30,000 miles. Cornering does leave some room for improvement, I'm sure the summer tires would be much better in that area. I was upset that Audi didn't offer a 17" upgrade in'00 w/o buying the sport package,etc.
I have heard many complaints about 16" versus the 17" upgrade. Does having 17" tires make that much of a dif in cornering ability?

Thanks-Max

buddybrad · April 2002

This 16" vs. 17" bugs the heck out of me too. My GS400 came with 17" Bridgestone's and lasted 14K, but they were the best handling tires I ever drove (and noisiest). Then winter came and I bought 4 - 16" wheels from tirerack.com and put Hakkapelliitta's on it. Great all-season tires (or tyres as they spell it). Now I have to fool around with storing a set of wheels and tires and switching them each season. The tire store or dealer will store them for $50/season.

While car shopping recently, I checked out the Infiniti G35 and noticed if you order the Sport Pkg. you get 17" tires and wheels. But, if you order the Sport Pkg. AND the Cold Weather Pkg. (heated seats, etc.) - they figure you live somewhere that requires an all-season tire and that's what they provide in 17". Probably not a perfect solution for everyone, but I'm all for it!

As far as the $81K price for the RS6, I saw it in both AutoWeek and Automobile magazine. My local Audi dealer said he has money down on 1.

markcincinnati · April 2002

You know, I loved having Dunlop SP9000's and Pirelli PZero's and even some other "high buck" brand tires. I kindof have come to expect tread life of less than 20,000 miles and frankly begin to notice some deterioration of these Maximum or Ultra High Performance (summer, aka) tires usually by 15,000 miles, sometimes even less.

The tires that came on my wife's TT coupe (225 x 45 x 17") made 11,000 miles (Bridgestone's).

I won't complaign too much about longentivity -- because I know these tires (generally) improve handling significantly. I do not like noisy tires, and with the experience that I have and continue to gain, now know that it is possible to get nearly maximum performance and a quiet tire at the same time.

I have debated the winter/summer wheel thing, and between storage and general convenience (or lack thereof), I think I would generally accept (for my weather conditions in southern Ohio) Ultra high performance or possibly even high performance all season tires. Why? Well let's see. . .Cincinnati is certainly not a huge city, but like most cities that have suburbs and some urban sprawl we have almost every day clogged "freeways" -- secondary roads as I motor to the north and east of Cincinnati are hardly better.

After rush hour, on our 8 lane newly repaved I-71, you can "safely" cruise for a minute or two at 80mph. And, it has virtually no curves. Once in a great while the roads are virtually empty of other motorists and the speed police. Therefore, once in a great while (if I am alone in the car) can I punch it up to 100mph -- but this rarely happens and when it does the duration of this action is measured in seconds. The point? I don't actually EVER need nor can I use the performance of these very very high performance tires.

On the other hand, I CAN tell the difference even between the tires I just ditched and the new ones -- the new ones do handle better even in "normal" driving.

So, what I guess I am saying is I would like to have some choices when I buy a car -- the Dunlop SP9000s which CAME STANDARD on the 2000 A6 4.2 w/17" wheel option were great, but they are about $1,000 a set and have a fairly short life span and are really not THAT good when the temp drops below 30 degress F and they are certainly NOT a "winter" or even all-season tire. So at 15 - 18k miles new tires are needed -- and when I generally lease a car for 30 months, I find buying tires that are only good for around 9 months of the year a pain in der butt.

On the issue of 16 vs 17 vs 18 and larger. It is my opinion that there are noticable differences between 16's and 17's and so on due to the larger wheel sizes, lower profiles and wider tread and stiffer sidewalls that generally characterize such tires. The handling generally improves as one increases these attributes -- of course, I would personally like to stay at a 45 or 50 series tire if possible (yes I know, I currently have 40 series) -- due to the dangers to these ultra low profile tires posed by potholes. Strictly on performance, though, the bigger wheels and lower profile tires handle much better.

timcar · April 2002

for the update on the Yoko's. I'm disappointed, but not terribly surprised that they degraded as they added mileage. I've read comments by some users they offered long life, but that might not be the same as maintaining the characteristics that are desirable. Then too, our cars are a little heavier than some, and that could contribute to wear also. The '92 Legend I had came equipped with an early version of ultra performance all-seasons by Michelin. For about the first 10K they offered very fine traction and handling in all conditions, even light snow. After that, they began to degrade rapidly and after about 15K were scrap, and lethal in snow.

I'm still intrigued by the Yoko's as a replacement for my stock Conti touring tires when they go. But that could be awhile, as at over 19K they show little signs of wear.

andruv · April 2002

kirby2010 · April 2002

I saw a TV ad today for the Volkswagen Passat 4-Motion with 280hp W8. I haven't seen much in the press about it - haven't been watching really, though I knew it was coming. What has the board seen about the car - price, performance, technology assessment, etc.? I'm impressed enough with the Passat that I was planning to purchase (or lease) a V6 version for my wife this summer. Equipped with a W8, and depending on price, a new 4-Motion Passat might be a great alternative to a two year old A6 with 2.7T or 4.2. This has the potential to seriously dilute the resale value of the A6. I was wondering what the board thought.

timcar · April 2002

Yes?

timcar · April 2002

Think it's just south of $40K. Fast, not particularly sporty. Nice, not any more (or less) luxurious than any other nice Passat. A very competent, quick family car. Don't think it matches either a 2.7T or 4.2 in performance.

markcincinnati · April 2002

Dedicated, hard core (perhaps) Audi drivers -- like me -- look at the Passat W8 as a possible alternative to an Audi A6 3.0 and perhaps even an A4 3.0. But -- speaking for myself -- I find it hard to believe I would equate the W8 with an Audi. But there are some almost compelling reasons to check one out.

List price (and it would be my belief there will be no discounts) is supposed to be $37,900 or $38,900 -- and basically it "has everything." Bi-xenon lights, AWD, ESP, trimmed to the "Passat maximum" and perhaps then some. VW does have access to lots of "content" from Audi.

The Passat W8 will be a higher performance near-luxury family touring sedan -- the W8 certainly increases the quickness of the car, but the Passat is often (usually) compared with other fine (often Japanses) family sedans. Nevertheless, the W8 presumably has been re tuned to be a bit tighter (read firmer) in the turns and in its ride after its Eurpean press introduction where journalists carped about excessive body roll/lean. To me, that means the W8 that gets to the US will be a bit more Audi-like. So much so that I'll wager the W8 will take some biz away from Audi. Positioned (size wise) as an almost A5 Audi, the Passat will cost about the same as a well equipped A4 3.0 quattro and it is a bit larger. Compared to an A6 3.0 quattro, the Passat W8 will perform better (at least in a straight line) and be thousands less and some would argue better equipped.

The warranty -- I read that those dealers who are chosen to market the W8 have to comply with heightened "customer service" standards (which I read to mean "more Audi-like") -- who knows if the warranty and Audi advantage will be carried to the W8, I doubt it.

First time buyers, looking at the W8 and the approximately priced Audi's and taking 15 minute test drives, may find it difficult to uncover the subtle quantitative and qualitative differences between the W8 Passat and the Audi cousin -- and then when the price plus that supposedly lovely 8 cylinder engine are factored in, may have difficulty "justifying" the price of the Audi.

I flirted with the possibility of a Passat W8 "avant" -- but have since decided I will order an allroad (but I know the allroad is some $10,000+ more). There will be some who will say the Passat W8 is good enough.

I do not in any way wish to damn the new Passat W8, I am very pleased that it is coming out, overall. I do think the new directions that VW -- and Audi for that matter -- are taking will cause at least a couple of model year's worth of market confusion while these new directions (VW "classic luxury+value" Audi "advancing the notion of a sports-sedan, etc.") and the dust settle.

If you can't see the Audi in your driveway, I'll bet you'd be very happy with this new "super cheap" (in a good way) W8 Passat. For the money and the segment, it has virtually no rivals.

mbnut1 · April 2002

I have found Passats to have a more wind noise than Audi's. The salesman a the local VW acknowledged that Audis are quieter. It is the principal reason I haven't bought a Passat yet. While I agree that W8 is a better deal that the A4 3.0 the wind noise would need to be reduced to Audi levels before I could see spending that kind of money on a Passat.

woobah · April 2002

Hi, I am in the market for a new car. I want a sports sedan. Not so much, for driving excitement, but for the "cool" look of a sports sedan. I also want room in the back seat for any occupants who might ride in the back. I want a safe car, a car that has the best technology, good fuel econonmy for its class (we need to protect the environment as much as possible), a car that holds value well, rear air and heat vents, and a car that people say that is a cool car.

I am considering the Audi A6 All wheel drive, BMW 530i, or wait unti 2003 for the 5 series, Lexus 300 ES, I will take a look at the G35, or a Jag X Type.

I saw an Audi A6 the other day on the street, and I must admit, I was impresssed. Any comments, suggestions?

marleybarr · April 2002

I'm not sure about the W8, because I have never seen one, of course, but you do have to dig deeper to find some of the differences between Audi and VW. Mbnut 1 mentioned windnoise, other issues include warranty, wheel styles and interior qualities.
The biggest things I have noticed are the seatbelts and interior room. I absolutely love the seatbelt on the 2.7T. Wearing the "belt" on my '98 Toyota and trying the Passat were much more uncomfortable.The Audi belt is lighter and less intrusive on the shoulder.
The back seat/ trunk combination is unbeatable on the Audi. The Toyota and the Passat sedans have a "pass-through" to the back seat, not nearly as roomy for cargo storage as the 2.7T. People unfamiliar with the Audi have been amazed at how much stuff can be packed into a sedan.

marleybarr · April 2002

I purchased the 2.7T in "00 and have 30,000 miles on the vehicle. If you can afford the 2.7T, it is vastly better than the standard 2.8 A6 in most respects. I have never driven the new'02 A6 3.0 so I obviously can't make an opinion on that model. The only thing lacking on the 2.7T is gas mileage. It requires premuim fuel and makes 18/20 in town w/o the air on, about 22/23 on the road. Having the twin turbo/quattro system, many might think that this is reasonable mileage, I guess that is a matter of opinion!

markcincinnati · April 2002

I have made my comments recently and previously pertaining to the Audi and (W8) Passat as I find them more than a little confusing from a marketing standpoint. I drove a new V6 GLX 4Motion about a year ago and found it to be a competent if somewhat underwhelming sporty sedan -- it was way better than a Camry and a Chrysler 300M (which I also drove) though.

I find it difficult to imagine why the Passat, which I think is perhaps an "Audi-lite" was brought to this market at a price point that could possibly hurt the A4 and A6 sales. I guess it is possible that the thought processes include getting a larger market share from the two divisions of VW. For Audi and VW (with the advent of the W8 Passat) should garner more of the car buying publics dollars (in this class) what with the Passat 1.8t, V6, W8 and the Audi A4 1.8t, 3.0 and A6 3.0. Although one could make a (flimsy) argument that the W8 Passat takes a swing at the (current) A6 2.7T.

My point is that there will be people who will not "get" the +$10,000 an A6 can command over a W8 and will likewise not get the A4 3.0 and Passat W8's similar price points when the Passat is larger and has 8 under the bonnet.

Wind noise, I'll bet, will be muted in the W8 -- and while I grant the existance of many subtle differences (and they do make all the difference in the world) between the Audi and the Passat, I don't think they will "leap" right out and make themselves apparent in a short test drive.

I think the 2004 and beyond Audi's will see the differences between the two marques begin the more clearly manifest themselves as Audi's become more performance oriented and VW establishes its products to more squarely compete with Mercedes (in features, content, engineering and to a lesser extent, price.)

Time will tell.

markcincinnati · April 2002

I have just finished reading the most recent posts on three town - halls, A4, A6 and Passat. There is a particularly engaging set of posts over on the A4 town hall pertaining to learning how to drive a stick shift and I found them engaging and educational -- more importantly I found them supportive of a participant who is not currently a manual transmission driver.

Over on the A6 board I see lots of posts about the cars themselves and certainly the board seems to attract people who have a great deal of passion about cars, driving and Audis. Cars for me are an avocation, a way to let off steam and decompress in general. It is in some ways refreshing and exciting to read what is posted by "y'all" -- even when we disagree.

So, due to the recent postings pertaining to the W8 Passat, I went to vw.com and it is now updated with W8 content, then I went again to the Passat town hall board -- which I have been participating in for several weeks.

The content on that board seems to reflect a different -- not bad, not right or wrong -- theme. There appears to be fewer "car" people on the board -- much of the discussions have to do with the prices of the cars, not the joy of driving them. Some of the participants seem to argue that such and such a configuration is "good enough" -- the love, the passion, the sometimes "over the top" attention to details and sheer knowlege of the product is largely missing.

I am just observing the differences between those who post on these brands forums -- Audi posters seem far more passionate and forceful in their opinions, knowlege (of product) and love of driving. We are less logical (perhaps) than those posting on the Passat hall. We do discuss price certainly, but we spend more time discussing the driving experience, seats, tires, engines, etc.

Perhaps my earlier comments about the Passat W8 hurting the Audi sales were premature -- an "Audi driver" is not likely to be turned to a Passat methinks now. Yet one who is new to both the Audi and the VW Passat and who is somewhat less passionate about the driving experience is still vulnerable to the apparent content/price equation.

Anyway, I find those who participate in the Audi boards to want to engage in dialog that is fundamentally different (NOT better, per se) than those who participate in the Passat board. Perhaps there should be a Passat town hall board for the W8 and V6GLX's w/4Motion as these drivers and participants do seem to be (based on word count) more interested in the cars and the driving of them than the discount they can get on them.

Boy am I (probably) in trouble now -- or as one of the little rascals used to say, "if I do dis, I'll get a whippin' - - - I'll do dis anyway. . .[sic]."

JBaumgart · April 2002

From a consumer's standpoint I think it's great that VW/Audi are coming out with so many interesting permutations from which to choose. Competition is a wonderful thing. All manufacturers must constantly innovate and improve, or be left behind. This includes VW, and since this is where the vast majority of their sales volume (and profits) come from, it only makes sense that they borrow content and features from Audi. Whatever they think will increase overall sales and profits, they should do. So far it hasn't adversely affected Audi sales, which I believe have increased each year since bottoming out with the sudden acceleration fiasco.

I agree with Mark that right now VW/Audi is in a bit of transition. Their strategy going forward will be for VW to target value and more family-oriented customers, while moving upscale. These would be mostly luxury and near-luxury buyers who might also be looking at the nicer Japanese offerings, or the entry and mid-level Mercedes models. Audi will focus on the sportier, more performance-oriented luxury car buyer, and will target BMW even more so than the past.

All this is great for the consumer, in my opinion. When buying a car, I LOVE hard choices - it just means I have many great cars from which to choose!

Joel

'98.5 A4 2.8Q
'01 allroad

markcincinnati · April 2002

Assuming there will be a manual transmission '03 allroad, I am seriously considering ordering one. What have your experiences been with yours -- performance, comfort, fun, safety, amenities, service, etc.??

Would you get another one?

Inquiring mind.

JBaumgart · April 2002

I love the car except for one thing: vibration at 45-55 mph. It's not consistent, and when I had my dealer check it out, it apparently did not exhibit this behavior. Others (on AudiWorld) who have experienced this problem say it is related to the Tiptronic transmission - there have been no reports amongst 6 speed owners, so this theory seems to be correct. And some Tip owners who have had this issue say it's been cured after a new TCM (Transmission Control Module) has been installed. I do not know if any 2002 owners have complained about this.

Anyway on mine it's almost as though there is a wheel out of balance, or an alignment problem. Very frustrating when you are going down a smooth road, and the ride does not feel smooth. I do plan to have them take another look at my next scheduled maintenance, and if they still can't feel it, then I will try the other dealer here in town where I have had our A4 serviced since new.

Otherwise I really enjoy the car. I don't have to tell you about the 2.7T engine - it's fantastic. The interior is beautiful, even nicer than an A6 in some ways, IMO. The handling is better than you expect, especially at Level 1. Certainly not as "tossable" as our A4 with Sports Pkg. but way better than any SUV. And since I do get into the outdoors on occasion, the adjustible suspension has come in real handy.

Maybe most importantly for me, I use the AR for towing our boat (about 2200 lbs. loaded), and it does great. Sure beats the Jeep Grand Cherokee that it replaced for when I'm NOT towing the boat, which is about 95% of the time. The custom-designed hitch is an engineering marvel - completely invisable to the casual observer when not in use.

Since I'm in Minnesota - and here it's been snowing ALL DAY ON APRIL 21ST - it's especially welcome 8 months a year when the going get's tough! (too bad I took off the snow's 3 weeks ago - we've had two major snowfalls since then). But perhaps the coolest thing is that allroads are so rare - even here where there are MANY Audi's around. It's very rare to see another one, and you get many approving stares and compliments at the gas station, in parking lots, etc. It's funny but most of these have come from young guys, in their 20's and late teens - weird that they would consider a STATION WAGON to be cool! Now if I can just resolve that vibration issue...everything about it would be PERFECT. If you go with the 6 speed, which despite the traffic around here I'm now regretting I did not - I think you'd be very happy with one. That said, if you do not need the off-road or towing capability that the allroad delivers - you might want to take a good look at the other Avant options that the model year 2003 might bring. From your posts it's pretty obvious that you really favor the low-end torque and marvelous performance of the 2.7T engine, and coupled to a 6 speed (and maybe a chip?) the performance would be intoxicating. Not sure if that combo will be available in any other Avant's, but then there's always the RS6 - now THAT would be nice alternative...

bjbird2 · April 2002

If Audi could improve their reliability, or at least the perception of reliability since it still seems to be an issue in some publications, they could be a major player in the luxury sport sedan market. As long as reliability, which is fundamental to a luxury brand, remains an issue, Audi will remain a second tier player.
In the meantime, the luxury brands from Japan which already have superior reliability, are becoming serious driver's cars, performance cars.
An example is the new Infinity G-35, and the soon to be released G-35 coupe which will have 275HP and a list of performance refinements to long to list here, not to mention a price competitive, or thousands less than the cars from Germany. I love all of this competition, because the ultimate winner is the consumer.

nosho · April 2002

There has been some discussion lately how the W8 will conflict with the A6. Perhaps, but it seems that VW is going to use a poor performance automatic to minimize a Passat/A6 comparison.

Or at least that's how the October 2001 R&T and C&D read. The W8 is expected to have a 0-60 time in the 7.8-8.1 second range. MUCH slower than the 6.6 seconds for the A6-2.7T or 6.7 seconds for the A6-4.2 (6.4S in C&D test).

Part of the reason people shell out the money for an Audi is for the performance. The Passat just isn't in the game... or at least that's my take on it.

jscatena · April 2002

Well, I've narrowed it down to these two fine choices. I wonder if anyone out there can give me some input that wil help me decide. I love both vehicles and have worked a fairly god deal but I can't decide.

jpscatena@t-one.net

bertram60 · April 2002

Perhaps all our gushing over this product is not clear, but you are in the midst of a group of performance drivers, most of whom have driven almost everything on the market.

We have (Mark has) pretty much beaten this "Japanese reliability" issue to death, and most agree that we would sacrifice some "reliability without soul" for some real "drive-ability"

It looks to me by your many posts here that you are an Infinity salesman looking to find some new customers. Perhaps you should try the Toyota and Nissan boards for some recruits. I think you'll have a hard time selling here.

markcincinnati · April 2002

Randy:

Great post! Just the other day I was thinking as I read a post here about an Infinity G-35 that someone had signed on to the wrong town hall!

We are certainly all not pleased with our Audis all of the time. We have critiqued them -- fairly I think -- and praised them enthusiastically. I don't know if others try to sway opinions, but generally I stay away from the town halls representing other brands (than Audi and VW).

I don't think I have the "right" to sign onto the Lexus chat room/town hall/BB or whatever and trash OR praise Lexus vehicles for example. I have test driven and rented a lot of cars, but my "passion" and "expertise" is with the Audi and to a lesser extent VW brands.

What a great zing, Randy!

bjbird2 · April 2002

I'm probably as much of a performance driver as you are having grown up in a family that drove most of the German brands. I've driven nothing but performance cars all my life, including a Cobra for a short time, until I had to give it up because my wife was pregnant, and couldn't live with the skateboard-like ride.
All I'm saying is keep an open mind when judging cars, and watch your rear view mirror because the competition is getting better very fast.

bertram60 · April 2002

But I think we are all open minded here and acknowledge some of the virtues of a "reliable" vehicle. We just like our Audi's.

As I prepare to make a purchase, be it for an SUV or a performance sedan, I look at the entire market segment to see what's available. I am always trying to find something different, not the same thing everyone else has and something that fits my wants, needs and desires. I do not discriminate due to price, and will look above and below my budget. I am fortunate enough and have worked hard enough to buy whatever I want (my wife is the only "price buster" as it is hard to justify some of my toys to her!).

I would also say to you that straight line performance does not make a performance car. My Porsche's may not have been the fastest 0-60 vehicles out there (well, my friends current 996 twin Turbo actually may be!) but they would walk away from faster cars when pushed to the limits on the twisties. Some of the definition of performance, of course, belongs to the driver.

Actually, I think most of us here think our Audi's are performance vehicles where as most of the other Japanese products are more "transportation". That is not meant derogatively, but merely my opinion and that of others on this board. To each his own.

Oh, one more thing, this is the Audi board, I don't know that we really have to be open minded here!

bjbird2 · April 2002

Bertram60,
You must not be as much of a performannce enthusiast as I gave you credit for if you think the Cobra is only good for straight line acceleration. I've owned a 911, and my father has had two, and believe me, the Cobra would keep up with them in the twisties.
But that's a subject for another post. I get the impression that people on this post don't want to make performance car comparisons unless it's a Volkswagen.

markcincinnati · April 2002

Let's all take a deep breath.

First I saw no statement pertaining to the Cobra (unless by possible inference) made by Randy.

Second, I, for one, do not and cannot compare any Audi I have ever owned to a sports car -- no Audi that is generally available will compete with a Porsche or a Vette, well maybe my wife's TT could be compared to a Boxster.

I look at the Audi's as sports sedans -- and I think they rival or better just about anything out there, unless you factor in price, then they beat anything out there (and this is my opinion, please I do not want to start a fight with BMW owners).

I think the point that is being made is that this forum is fundamentally for people who are passionate about Audis (in this case A6's). For all I know there may be some "objective" rating of Infinity or Jaguar or Volvo that "proves" who makes the best car -- but I doubt it.

We can and do criticize our Audi's -- but we own them, we frankly are at a disadvantage to compare them to an Infinity for example. I have nothing against an Infiniti or a Jaguar or a Volvo, but I would not buy one TODAY with my own money. I will take a free one, however and probably will not feel I have been dumped on. So far, no one has offered me any car that I don't have to pay for.

I would not compare an S8 to a Cobra, for example -- they are both performance cars, however. Under certain circumstances each has strengths that overpower the other. Likewise I do not compare my A6 (with sport package) to any Porsche, even though I MIGHT be able to do some things "better" in my Audi.

Basically Audis are sporty sedans, "Avants," coupes and ragtops -- for this reason I do not compare them with Hummers either.

Hopefully we can discuss anything on this forum, but practically speaking, this particular forum is for and about the [love] of Audi A6's. There are forums for practically all tastes.

bjbird2 · April 2002

OK Mark, I thought when I saw your postings comparing Volkswagens to Audis that you would be open to some other opinions about performance cars. Since VWs and Audi's are cousins I guess your own comparisons and opinions don't count, and it sounds like you speak for everyone on this forum.

pat · April 2002

"Relax and take a deep breath" is great advice.

Mark doesn't speak for everyone on this forum at all - and I'm quite certain that it has never occurred to him to assume that role. You seem to have only dropped by here recently. Please understand that we have quite a history here of interest in and enthusiasm about the A6.

If you or anyone else want/wants to compare the G35 - or any other offering from any manufacturer - to the A6, certainly that would be a welcome discussion in the Town Hall. However, the place to have that conversation would be on our Comparisons board - not here in a discussion that is dedicated to only one of the two vehicles of which you speak.

Please feel free to create a comparison discussion between the A6 and G35 - or any other vehicle you'd like to compare - on the appropriate board.

Let's let these good folks get back to talking about A6s in the same way that we have folks talking about the G35 in their own dedicated discussion.

Feel free to drop me an email if you have any questions at all.

Thanks!

Pat
Sedans Host

bertram60 · April 2002

You did not get the gist of what I was trying to say, and as I check on this (and other) boards from my office during brief periods of free time, what I was trying to illustrate may not have been clear.

My statement regarding straight line acceleration was meant to illustrate that this is only part of the equation, that we each have our own definition as to what makes a "performance" vehicle, and what we are looking for in a "performance" sedan is based on our own set of criteria. Perhaps my follow up should have been that the definition of performance is to some extent a matter of opinion, and is based on many factors, not just one (ie: speed). My Boxster was in no way a fast car, but I know of many faster cars that could not keep up with it in many situations due to it's superior handling, weight distribution and traction.

Similarly, my Audis had tremendous traction at the limits, and limits that were well beyond many other vehicles I've owned and driven. I've also driven cars that were pure sports cars, Ferrari's, real Porsche's (that'll be good for some feedback!), Corvettes, even a McLaren (one of the four in the country) and can say there were things that I liked and didn't like about them. But, those topics are for another forum.

My only problem with your comments is that they are interjected into this forum out of nowhere. I am sure that if I dropped into the G35 discussion with comments about how the Infinity was being overtaken by "XXX" and that they're a third class product that shall remain as such, I'd have plenty of people jumping on me and rightly so. I've done myself a disservice by randomly pointing out and saying things that I may or may not have any experience with.

Meanwhile, I don't think anyone here would say that our Audi's have been perfect, but we love them. As a matter of fact, I have recently sold mine out of frustration (regret having done so) and still plan to order another.

I am by no means saying that you can't have your own opinion, this is America.

You are very correct in the statement that we all benefit from the competition between manufacturers (as long as they don't try and see who can build the cheapest!). But, I am surprised that you got as defensive as you did.

I would certainly be waiting by the screen for the rebuttal if I jumped into another forum and made some random comments. To some extent this is part of the fun, sharing our opinions.

No harm - no foul, we are all adults with our own opinions.

The End

bjbird2 · April 2002

Yes I did just drop in this forum, and when I saw Mark comparing the VW's with the Audis, I mistakinly thought that you would be interested in discussing the plusses and minuses of some other brands and making some educated comparisons. And when I was told this is a forum for performance drivers, I got a little defensive because I am as interested in performance as the next guy, and this message indicated that I wasn't qualified.
I stand corrected, and I won't come back.

pat · April 2002

Bjbird, all I am saying is that there is a great place here to do just what you say you are interested in doing - just hop over to the Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans board and set up whatever topic you think would be interesting to discuss. We'd love to pursue this there, really!

Pat
Sedans Host

bjbird2 · April 2002

Pat, I've just started a comparison "Audi A6 vs. Infiniti G35 forum.
Sorry to get all of these Audi enthusiasts so upset.

morphie · April 2002

Most interesting; I do not remember our "Host" having to intercede.

I welcome comments comparing other vehicles to A6's. My only suggestion is that the common denominator be a focus on Audi's, particularly the A6. To that end, I have a story to relate:

I recently had an opportunity to drive on the Autostrada. When overseas, particularly in Italy, I have found it difficult to rent Audi's. Very scarce and quite expensive. However, with a little planning, it is possible. I find it intriguing to sample smaller engines, especially 6"s. At times, we all get quite wrapped up with the 2.7t's and 4.2's. Candidly, the Europeans think we are nuts (C'est la vie).

The A6 was not available for several days. Consequently, I was offered a Lexus LS430. While it was not my first choice, I condescended to take it.

In many respects, this is a marvellous vehicle: smooth, silent and poised. It acquitted itself well at about 200kph (125mph). Also, it displayed exemplary build quality.

The A6 was available after about 500 miles. The difference was startling; one cannot beat those A/B comparisons. The interior was far more driver oriented; a bit less plush, but ergonomically superior. The feedback (steering, suspension) was dramatically different: far more visceral input to the senses. At speeds over 100 mph, there was a feeling of greater confidence.

It must be stressed that the Lexus was extremely competent; just not quite the driver's car that the A6 was. However, the Germans must be careful not to take the Japanese too lightly; there is no reason to believe that Lexus cannot produce high performance machinery, able to compete with anyone.

An interesting side note: one of our business companions was a former participant in the British Sedan racing series. He kept reminding me not to reduce speed via engine braking; "You down shift to keep the engine in its power band; brakes are for slowing the bloody thing down." His words, not mine. Of course, he is correct.

markcincinnati · April 2002

Because Audi and VW are perhaps fraternal twins or first cousins or -- historically at least -- "twin sons of different mothers" I have made comments pertaining to (specifically) the W8 Passat and the Audi A4 3.0 and Audi A6 3.0 and to a much lesser extent the Audi A6 2.7T.

I am not competent to make comments about the Infiniti anything -- I have driven a grand total of three Infinity products -- none of them were G35's. The only one that impressed me was a J30 and the owner told me it was dangerous on any non-dry pavement. He now owns an I30 -- he loved Infiniti's but not the J30 -- if I added any more I would be speculating.

I certainly wish to agressively present my opinions and facts (when I know them for certain as facts) -- I have no bone to pick with Infinity, any Infninty. I assume Richard has had both Audis and Infinitis and can make comparisons -- I can only present the Audi side and anecdotal "evidence."

I enjoy this forum -- I find it relaxing and, in varying degrees, challenging. I love a good argument, but I'm not just here for contradiction. And, I do understand that an argument must often be made up of contradiction, but hopefully it will end with a substantiated logical premise. As Monty Python says "this is an argument!" "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" "No it isn't -- this is just contradiction!" "No it isn't!" Hopefully you get my point.

The VW Audi "discussion" perhaps has merit because of the family tree and the somewhat common parts-bin that both Audi and VW have and continue to dip into. I know of no such commerce between Audi or VW and Infinit or Lexus or Jaguar for that matter.

I wish I could participate in the G35 vs A6 forum, I bet it will be lively. Richard, who has strong opinions (as do the rest of us) has us at a disadvantage since he has relevant ownership experience with both Audi A6's and Infinity's. I have personally owned over two dozen Audi and VW products, one BMW, one AMC Eagle and several Chryslers. I suspect the only relevant ownership experience I have had has been with the VW (and Audi) brands as I think -- especially in the example of Audi -- that I have owned at least one of every model since 1978.

Indeed, I even had as one of my "company cars" access to a 1976 Silver Fox and a Porsche 944 (btw, the Fox was the better car, IMO).

Sorry to have instigated any turmoil or ill will between and amongst my fellow town-hall members. Good luck to the A6 G35 topics board -- I, unfortunately, can only lurk on such a board since I literally know nothing about the G35.

markcincinnati · April 2002

So I did "lurk" on the A6 vs G35 discussion. Try as I might I could not find any evidence of Richard actually having ownership experience with an Audi A6 of any ilk.

In principle my defense of his right to his opinion still stands, but it appears he has not owned an A6 anything.

I shall now discuss, in depth, the Mercedes AMG Super Duper E series -- and why it is a far far better thing than I have ever done before.

Sorry I got suckered.

bertram60 · April 2002

and also reviewed Richard's previous posts. My only complaint was that his approach was so antagonistic and without any merit. His first post was an attack on your VW / Audi discussions with follow up interjecting his beloved G35.

While I am always interested in comparisons, I am not one to make statements when I haven't done my homework. I could have gone into a long diatribe about the two Maxima SE's that I've had, (which in reality are the same thing as an I30 but with less leather - talk about a marketing program) and how I'd never spend the money for an "up scale version" of the same exact car.

In reviewing the G35 board there are arguments to both sides and a few A4/A6 owners who have both changed over to the G35 and those whom have switched from Infinity to Audi, but the comments there are as they are here, constructive and polite.

What I did find interesting was that most of the existing comparison boards were of the G35 to A4/330i/X-type vehicles, not the bigger segment.

In looking back it appears we have discussed in depth the 5 series, e-class size market.

Anyhow, I will again fade into the background as it appears I may have started a lot of this. I thoroughly enjoy this forum and will keep watching, and with the groups permission, contributing when I can. Soon enough I hope to be back in the Audi family.

jscatena · April 2002

Comments please. I have found a great deal on an S6 ($500 over invoice) but still wonder about the 4.2. I love the performance of the S6 Avant but also like the rear seat comfort of the 4.2.

Any pros vs cons in your minds?

I wannabe an Audi owner here real soon!

vishnu11 · April 2002

I am curious to know what you guys think about the comparison between the A6 and BMW 5-series. BMW owners tend to be quite fanatic (and vocal) about their choice, so I thought I'd solicit opinion from the other side of the fence.

timcar · April 2002

Both are beautiful cars that ride and handle very well in dry conditions. One is a beautiful car that rides and handles very well in less than dry conditions. The A6's interior is larger and significantly more luxurious than the 5. 4.2 & 2.7T offer more go for the dough than any 5 series. It isn't a BMW, and you're not a BMW driver.

amarchan · April 2002

I ordered the sport springs from Clair parts (Audi part #4B4071677DSP - $300 including shipping) and the local Audi dealer installed them for $420 including 4-wheel alignment and 6 month follow up to recheck alignment. The difference is significant. The car sits lower, which gives it a more aggressive look, and the ride is tighter, actually absorbing small irregularities on the road better than the stock springs and reducing dips on the expressway to a single, shorter rebound. Cornering is flatter and now the car feels as if it was riding on rails. Tires are the stock Continentals but the car feels as if it had new, higher performance tires. Road noise is actually less. The GM feel is gone. The car feels lighter. There is significantly less front-end dive on heavy braking, and the tiptronic has better control of the chassis. This is how Audi meant this car to ride. I know that there is still room for improvement in performance, but these springs make a perfect balance between luxury/comfort and performance - in my opinion. Shocks are stock and so are the sway bars. Probably the best performance/dollar modification I could have done to this car.

mpyles1 · April 2002

A good friend (who is a rabid "car guy") drives both a 2000 Audi A6 4.2 with sport package and a 2001 BMW 540i with sport package. Here are his observations about both:

The BMW . . . You can feel the extra torque and the lighter weight in the handling. The BMW is also much quicker (the 540 sport package includes a low-ratio rear end for more punch off the line, albeit at the expense of a gas guzzler tax). For pure driving pleasure on those days you just want to throw a car around, he finds no sedan better.

The Audi . . . It's just a hair behind the BMW in driving dynamics in clear weather. The greater weight, lower torque, and higher-ratio rear end are apparent. In inclement weather, the Audi slips ahead. The Audi has the better interior -- more room, classier layout, slightly more compliant ride.

Conclusion . . . He'd rather drive the BMW when he's alone on short trips or with just his wife along for the ride. For other purposes, he generally opts for the Audi. However, he finds each car so good in all respects that if he had never driven the other, he'd find either fully satisfactory. Both cars have been relatively problem-free.

I know all this because he and I went over this several times while I was making my recent decision to order an A6 4.2 with sport package. He lives in Connecticut just a few blocks from work. I live 26 miles away up in the hills and commute on backroad twisties through the winter. The quattro system broke the tie for me. (The 2002 A6 also has some improvements over his 2000: 40% more structural rigidity due to steel reinforcements, a tauter suspension, and upgraded front brakes.)

You can't go wrong with either car. You just have to decide which trade-offs (and they're all minor with this class of car) bother you most.

morphie · April 2002

I think Mike's friend's comparisons are fair, and consistent with my experience.

I used to drive BMW's, exclusively. I have not owned the new "5" series. However, the distinguishing characteristics of the two cars are, clearly, weight and awd vs. rwd. In the case of the former, lighter weight gives the driver a subjective feel of greater "tossability". This is even noticeable when driving an A6 and A4, back to back. A few hundred pounds makes a difference. This was one of my few criticisms of the A6, and the 4.2 in particular (sorry, Mark). However, as you add V8's to BMW's, the "light on your feet" advantage begins to dissipate.

Assuming a lighter vehicle, the rwd component tends to exaggerate the impression of maneuverability. This seat of the pants feel is very important to some. The subjective experience is most noticeable with a light vehicle with front engine, rear drive, or one with mid engine placement. One cannot change the laws of motion and inertia.

It would seem that, for the average driver, Quattro is more of an intellectual choice and, to some extent, a leap of faith. While I have attended a few driving schools, I have never driven an awd vehicle on a race course, much less an Audi. For those who have, like Mark, I am sure that the experience confirms the advantages of Quattro. The rest of us soldier on, quietly, subjectively confident that Audi engineers know more than do we.

nickjc · April 2002

Jim--I own an '01 4.2. Great vehicle, as others in this forum will opine. I've not had the occasion to drive the S6, but if memory serves correctly, the performance was NOT what I expected from the vehicle (IMHO). However, with the 4.2 and quattro, you will be superior to 90%, in terms of performance, of other vehicles on roadway. Just my 2 cents worth...

If you can wait, and have the financial means, the RS6 is purpotedly on its way to our shores in the near future. What a machine. I hope A of A will let me out of my lease a little early...

In any event, you will enjoy both these vehicles immensely. Cheers.

kirby2010 · April 2002

I had a couple co-workers visiting this week and since I had taxi duty - and some distance to cover in a hurry - I rolled out the Audi. We had a full car for one excursion. No point in covering the ergonomics, comfort, room, power, etc. It's all been said and I remain very satisfied with Audi ('01 A6 2.7T, 6-speed).

We did have an interesting conversation on the road, though. One of the group (young guy, snappy dresser) commented that the BMW 5XX was the car of his dreams. I asked, of course, if he had ever driven one, knowing, of course, that the answer was no. I think tells more about what BMW has over Audi than anything I've seen posted.

I test drove the 5-Series and done a more comprehensive side-by-side between my car and a friend's 530 (with auto). Somewhere back a few hundred posts or so I wrote down my views and they haven't changed. The BMW is a fine automobile, though not for me. The Audi is also a fine automobile. On many points the Audi is the equal of BMW and in some instances a better automobile choice.

mariobgoode · April 2002

My 2 cents' worth: My wife's cousin is married to a native German guy my age (about 50). They live in Munich. I asked him once what German car he would buy, regardless of cost, that he would enjoy driving. He has owned all brands (MB, BMW, Audi, VW, etc.) and driven all permutations of the brands. He thought deeply about it, and came up with one answer that lit up his eyes: "Audi."

kirby2010 · April 2002

Mario: Great post - and he could have added Quattro to the response. Munich is a great area - I've been there a few times and will be back again for a couple weeks next month. Bavaria is a great region to tour and all points south of Munich lead to Quattro country - the Alps and great skiing. Clearly a super endorsement.

jmezz · April 2002

could anyone help with lease price on 3.0 a6, 15k miles, 36 or 39 months

thanks

markcincinnati · April 2002

Drive them both. My friend drove a 530 and then a 2.7T (the reason was that the price of the 530 was above the A6 3.0 by a considerable amount.)

He said the 2.7T bettered the 530, had quattro a lower lease payment and had way more pickup.

Again, drive them both -- back to back on a dry day and on a wet day. They are both very nice cars -- for me quattro and the value for money calculation gets me every time!

nyccarguy · April 2002

My Mom picked up an A6 3.0Q about a month ago. I believe my parents' are paying in the mid $500 range per month with $0 down. Their A6 is pretty loaded. They have every option except navigation. Theu could've had the 2.7T for only another $50-$60 a month, but my Mom didn't feel the need for the extra power (I tried to tell her there's no such thing as too much power, but she doesn't listen).

Audi A6

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles