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Audi A6

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Comments

  • jim3039jim3039 Member Posts: 28
    Thanks for your questions Rick. And Mike, Richard and Tim's informative answers have been helpful to me as well. I need to buy a sedan in January and have felt compelled to consider the A6 based on all the great press it receives. While the A6 design does not excite me, what I have seen and read of it's interior is exciting. To date, I've only driven the 525i and S80. I was very disappointed by the interior size of the 525i (I'm 6'2") and very impressed with the space provided in the S80. Any thoughts on how the A6 stacks up in the interior space category?
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    Inside it's bigger than a 5 series, and maybe a hair smaller than an S80. Plenty of room for 4 big people and their stuff.
  • dwpcdwpc Member Posts: 159
    Having looked at both, in my opinion the A6 interior is vastly more spacious and comfortable than the 528; much brighter and better visibility too. Front seat legroom and head clearance are excellent. Back seat leg room is huge! The trunk is cavernous. I haven't seen an S70. The A6 is a very roomy, very plush car. If you haven't yet looked at one you should so you can judge for yourself.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Before buying my A6, I strongly considered the S80. (I've owned 2 Volvos and count myself among their biggest fans.) In terms of interior space, both cars have plenty. It's hard to speak quantifiably, since the only number I can locate for the S80 is as follows: "Interior: total volume (EPA) 114.1 in." It's an obvious typo, but it appears in the brochure and the web site. The A6 interior volume is published as 98.3 cubic feet. (At least Audi uses the correct unit of measurement!)

    Subjectively, both cars offer plenty of room for adults, front and back. They're both spacious, much more so than the 5 series. In addition, the A6 interior styling is just about the best I've seen from any manufacturer, especially when illuminated at night. Audi also offers more choices (in terms of interior color schemes, seating materials, even leather textures) than anyone.

    If you haven't already done so, I encourage you to visit a dealer and see for yourself. Please come back here and let us know what you think. Good luck!

    - Mike
  • khushkhush Member Posts: 1
    We were initially considering the Infiniti i30T but then we saw the Audi A6 and fell in love.
    But I read somewhere that parts are extremely expensive and that reliability is not as good. I know that Audi has a 4 year 50,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty but the maintenance problems generally start after 50,000 miles, don't they?
    Would appreciate any comments. Also is the Infiniti a better buy?
    Thanks
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    Depends on what you want. Haven't driven the I30T, but have driven the Maxima from which it is derived. I disliked both the way Maxima rode and handled. Press to the contrary, it felt to me just like it was; a car with a solid rear axle with the consequent impairment to ride and handling. The press has said the I30T isn't very much fun to drive, and I have no reason to disbelieve that.

    The A6 is at least two or three levels above the I30T in design sophistication, and that is readily apparent if you drive one. If you really want to be in trouble, drive one with either of the more powerful engines, the 2.7T or 4.2. They are instantly addictive.

    Reliability, as defined as a car that never breaks, and a flawlessly integrated parts and maintenance organization, is a different matter. It's tough to beat Infiniti, Lexus or Acura. And Audi tends to be more problematic on all counts. But coming out of a Lexus, I've decided (here I go again) that I'd rather have a car that's WONDERFUL to drive most of the time, than BORING to drive all the time. It all depends on your priorities.

    Since I'll be leasing I'm not really concerned about what happens after 50K. If you love the car, but want some certainty that it won't make you go broke, I'd suggest investigating some of the many sources for a long-term warranty. I suspect you can find one that will be cost effective.

    Hope this helps. Let us know how you make out.
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    Sorry, I forgot. I don't think the I30t is a particularly good buy. Is it cheaper? Yes. But it is probably less of a value if you compare what it is to what it costs than the A6. Having had both a Lexus and a Legend, I can say that maintenance on the premium Japanese brands isn't cheap either.
  • wedge22wedge22 Member Posts: 2
    Like Rick I too am closing in on a new A6 and have never leased a vehicle before. I'm somewhat confused as to the best way to approach my homework in this area. I can tell you reading through the comments in this arena are real helpful. So any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated.
  • jim3039jim3039 Member Posts: 28
    Thanks for the helpful interior thoughts. I"m going to try to get out for a test drive over the long weekend.I'll let you know what I think.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Well, then, here are a few things to look for. (Some are easily missed.)

    1. There are 3 different "atmospheres" from which to choose. They're all the same price and besides available colors they have some unique characteristics.

    "Ambition": Satin Black or Maroon/Black; leather (steerhide, coarse texture) or leatherette; vertical stitch pattern; dark brown polished burled walnut trim; graphite-colored aluminum trim.

    "Advance": Tungsten Gray; cloth or leather (water buffalo, medium texture); horizontal stitch pattern; dark brown polished burled walnut trim; titanium-colored aluminum trim.

    "Ambiente": Melange in leather (calfskin, soft smooth texture) or leatherette; Vanilla/Satin Black or Vanilla/Royal Blue in leather (calfskin, soft smooth texture) only; horizontal stitch pattern; light amber polished sycamore wood trim; pearl-colored aluminum trim.

    2. Interior lighting. Check out the puddle lights (on the underside of each door), the floor lights (open any door and the respective floor light lights up), the rear reading lamps (which can be used at night with absolutely no glare for the driver), the red and white instrument panel lighting, the all-red switch and control lighting, and my personal favorite, the pair of red beams in the overhead console that shine down on the front console area!

    3. The Cold Weather Package (heated F+R seats) is wonderful. The heated seats feel great, and they have a choice of 6 different temperature settings. The rear seat heater controls are located at the rear of the console and are (of course) illuminated in red. Very cool.

    4. Included in cars with the Premium Package (besides xenon headlights) are steering wheel stereo controls (nice feature, and they also light up in red!), memory front seats and outside mirrors, and auto-dimming mirrors (in and out, FABULOUS feature).

    5. The seats are OUTSTANDING, rivaling Volvo's (and that's quite a compliment). They're 12-way power adjustable with power lumbar adjustment.

    6. The steering wheel tilts AND telescopes.

    7. Each door has its own lined storage bin.

    The list goes on and on, but you get the idea. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that much of the beauty of this car's interior is in the details, and the details abound. Don't miss them!

    Good luck.
  • ebrodskyebrodsky Member Posts: 7
    Has anyone bought that ridiculously expensive Motorola analog phone that Audi sells that can be installed in the armrest on the A6? I know it's analog and I know it's expensive (approx. $600 installed), but I really like the idea of using the steering wheel phone controls (from a safety standpoint). Try driving a manual transmission A6 2.7T and using a Nextel at the same time! In fact, Brookline, MA became the first town in MA to pass a law prohibiting driving while holding a cellular phone!

    Also, does anyone know the number of phone numbers you can program into this Audi Motorola analog phone?

    Lastly, the service manager at Clair Audi in Boston informed me that if I tried to have an after-market phone installed by a phone shop, it would burn out or blow something in the phone system?!?! Has anyone installed a phone in the armrest that uses the pre-wiring AND steering wheel controls?

    If any of the experts out there could help me with these questions, it would be appreciated.
  • jim3039jim3039 Member Posts: 28
    Rick,
    Finally drove the A6 2.8 yesterday and loved it. My concerns about interior space are put to rest. And contrary to all the talk about the lack of power in the 2.8, it blows the S80 away. It's more than adequate for my needs. Going to drive the Saab 9-5 and today, then make-up my mind. But for now, I can't see how I wont opt for the A6...provided I can find an attractive lease package. My January lease date seems like too long to wait before I can get behind the wheel of an A6 everyday.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    It will be interesting to see how you feel the 9-5 stacks up against the others. I see it as being quite different from everything else in its class. (I mean that as a compliment in some regards, but not all!)

    Now that you've driven an A6 2.8 (was it a quattro?), it sounds as though you're as confused as I am about why so many refer to it as being so "under-powered". Your personal experience is a perfect testimonial in support of deciding based upon one's own test drive, and not strictly upon the opinions of others.

    A couple of other things for your consideration, as you get closer to pulling the trigger:

    1. Listen to both the standard and Bose audio systems before you decide which to get. They have very different sound characteristics, and it's by no means a given that you'll prefer the sound of the more expensive Bose; many people do not.

    2. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Premium Package (multi-function steering wheel, memory front seats & outside mirrors, auto-dimming inside & outside mirrors, and xenon headlights) is well worth getting. Unfortunately, ordering it disallows you from ordering the bargain-priced Celebration Luxury Package (moonroof, leather, HomeLink). In order to get the features from the Celebration Luxury Package included on a car with the Premium Package, you'd order the stand-alone leather option and Sunroof Package. It's goofy, and it's more expensive, but it's worth it.

    3. You have to see the colors (interior and exterior) in person in order to make the best choice. I encourage you to see as many as you can find before you decide, as there are so many choices. If you're unable to find in-person examples of the less common interiors (maroon/black, vanilla/royal blue, tungsten gray cloth), e-mail me and I'll try to e-mail you some pix.

    Hope this helps. Good luck!

    - Mike
  • fgold1fgold1 Member Posts: 1
    Perhaps I can help you on this...

    Had a non-Audi hands-free Motorolla permanent install with 99 memory slots done on my '98 A6 2.8Q when it was new 3-years ago for about $375. Just had it re-installed into my new '01 A6 2.7T by the guy who does all my dealership's phone installs. Had the dealer re-code the EPU for the phone functions on the steering wheel. Simple to program the system to read the memory locations stored in the phone---Now I can use the steering wheel functions to scroll the alpha & numeric memory slots (with read-out on the dash display) and send/receive/end calls. It's really fabulous!

    So it can be done with a Motorola unit that's less expensive than Nokia, but it is a permanent install, not removable. Just remember to have the system plugged into the factory set-up, and then program the phone to have the NAME REFERENCE option turned on. One note- when programming car system, keep radio function operative (the owner's manual says you can have either radio or phone instrument panel display operative, but it only worked for me with the radio display on). With the phone turned on, just depress the two center steering wheel function buttons simultaneously for about 5 to 10 seconds and you'll see the car's system learning your phone's memory locations in the dash radio display (you can release the function buttons once the process begins).

    Good luck!
  • dwpcdwpc Member Posts: 159
    If you check the FAQ page at Audiworld.com, you'll find fairly detailed instructions for integrating a Nokia digital phone into the A6.
  • jim3039jim3039 Member Posts: 28
    Mike,
    First, thanks for pointing out all the details to look for...unfortuantely, got your message after I drove the A6. Although I was fairly well versed on the details of the A6, I definitely need to visit a dealer again as I felt rushed during the process. I drove a 2.8 without quattro, by the way. Regarding interior, I did see a 4.2 trimmed in Ambiente (Vanilla/Royal Blue leather) which would be my choice today. I know Vanilla is not practical...but it's a lease! Color preference: Ming Blue. I think it's a classy combination. I also like the Light Silver, but overdone in the A6. I would want to stand apart from the pack.

    This leads me to the answer of your second question. Yes, I drove the 9-5 SE on Saturday and found it to be a very unique car. Truly different from all else in the category, which I find attractive. And I don't see many on the road in Los Angeles...also appealing. Found the power to be on par with A6 2.8, if not slightly more spunky. It put the S80 2.9 to shame (I won't pay the extra for the T-6). However, I did not walk away from the 9-5 drive with the same overall excitement I felt after I drove the A6.

    In terms of interior, I found the 9-5 pleasant with lots of attention to detail, and the standard On-Star is a nice bonus. Plus, I don't have to add any options to the SE. It has everything I want standard. In terms of size, the 9-5 has a slightly larger interior than the A6 (99 vs. 98.3 EPA), but the back seat felt much smaller in the 9-5. Finally, in terms of financing, I understand Saab offers some killer programs that also make it an attractive choice.

    My dilemma remains: The A6 2.8 is definitely my first choice, with the 9-5 SE as a fall back. But, I am not passionate about either car's exterior styling. For me the S80 wins in that arena. But I find the S80 drive and interior styling slightly dull. Plus, I understand Volvo does not offer attractive lease packages. I guess the net-net is that I will spend more time in the car than out of it, so just how important is the sheet-metal?

    Your thoughts on the virtues of the A6 vs. the 9-5 would be appreciated.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    I'm flattered that you asked for my thoughts, Jim! Interestingly, I went to the San Francisco auto show on Thanksgiving Day and checked out the 9-5. I should point out that I've never driven a 9-5 so I can only comment on "static" observations.

    Having driven Volvos (and liking them a lot) for 11 years before getting my A6 this year, I was prepared to like the 9-5. Indeed, it is a terrific car, nicely-equipped, solidly-built, the whole deal. In my book, though, it's not as nice as the A6. Again, my reasoning is at least partially a result of incomplete information, but here it is:

    Getting the admittedly subjective styling issue out of the way first, I personally am very fond of the A6's and not at all fond of the 9-5's. Both are unique, neither is likely to be mistaken for something else. To my eye, though, the A6 looks much more sporty (which I prefer) and the 9-5 looks "long in the tooth". It's just an emotional thing, but sitting in and driving the A6 makes me feel younger than I am (49), while the 9-5 makes me feel older.

    Again, admittedly subjectively, I much prefer the interior styling of the A6. The two cars take dramatically different approaches to this (as you've seen), but I find the Audi's interior lines and shapes to be more pleasing.

    As for features, neither car is a slouch. Among the edges that I find in the Audi are:

    - 5 speed automatic vs. 4 in the Saab

    - Tiptronic (I'm not aware that Saab offers an equivalent.)

    - FULL instrumentation (including voltmeter & oil TEMPERATURE gauge)

    - Availability of xenon headlights (FABULOUS)

    - In-dash auxiliary stereo display (frequency/RDS info/CD track/tape function)

    - Both cars deliver 200 h.p., but the A6 2.8 does it without a turbocharger. (My most recent Volvo, which I still have, is a 940 Turbo. It's been very reliable for 255,000 miles, but I must say that with the A6 I really like that I don't have to let the engine "idle down" for a minute or so before shutting it off.)

    - The price of the Audi includes all scheduled maintenance for 4 yrs./50000 miles.

    - The A6 back seat will accommodate adults comfortably all day long. Note the raised area of the rear headliner above the back seat.

    - Nobody short of a custom coach builder offers as many interior choices as Audi. If Vanilla/Royal Blue is your pick, then it's got to be an A6. (By the way, I've seen the Ming Blue/Vanilla/Royal Blue combo; it's VERY elegant while still providing a sporty feel.)

    - In my opinion, the 9-5 can only compete with the 2.8 FrontTrak version of the A6; throw in quattro, the 2.7T, or the 4.2 and there's no contest.

    I think we all take a lot of things into account when making the major decision of which $40K car to buy or lease. Among them are price, value, features, anticipated reliability, overall driving experience, dealer network, and styling. The cars you're considering are pretty close to each other price-wise (specific leasing deals notwithstanding). All of the contenders are great cars and their features are pretty darned similar. Sure, one has On-Star, another has pretty red lights and another has air vents mounted in the B-pillars, but none of these are likely to be deal makers or breakers.

    Perhaps the best tip I can give you is one that I learned when I was shopping earlier this year; it assumes that you're at least "somewhat" a "car guy": For the moment, forget about prices, lease deals, and warranties. Think ONLY about the cars themselves. Which do you like the best? Factor in those variables that matter to you, probably styling, features, overall driving feel. This was the process that pushed me over the edge. I looked at, studied, researched, and test-drove the S80, Acura 3.2TL, Lincoln LS (V8), Chrysler 300M, to name a few. One drive of an A6, though, was all it took. I'm not even sure that I understand or can articulate the specific reasons for it. I just know that driving the car made me feel REALLY GOOD, much more so than any of the others. That was it. After figuring out that I wanted the A6, I worked the numbers. It was a bit of a stretch, but my thought was that I'd continue to enjoy the car more than I would any of the others LONG after forgetting about the few extra $$$, the lack of a small feature, or a missing aspect of practicality.

    I guess I've taken much too long to simply suggest this: Given the cars you're considering, go with the one that you like the best, not because it comes with a better lease deal and not because somebody else likes it the best. If one of them gets your heart pounding and your adrenaline up (like the A6 does mine), get it and don't look back. You won't regret it.

    Hope this helps. Good luck!

    - Mike
  • jim3039jim3039 Member Posts: 28
    Your thoughts on virtues of the A6 vs. 9-5 are appreciated. And I also got that hard to articulate feeling you mentioned while driving the A6...it just feels right.
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    for those of you who have an Audi with the Touring
    Continental tires: are you satisfied with the
    performance of the tires--are they acceptable for
    driving in heavy snow--what are your likes and
    dislikes--would you buy them again

    I test drove the audi a-6 but settled for the 300M
    based on styling, roominess, performance and
    comfort. Got .9% financing and below invoice
    pricing which sealed the deal. Love the car except for somewhat higher road noise than I would have liked.

    My problem is that I hate the goodyears it comes
    with and when they wear out I will seek another
    brand. There are only a few choices for exact size replacements--Bridgestone Revo's, Michelins,
    Contis and Goodyears. Michelins wear quickly and
    are expensive, Goodyears slip in wet weather,
    Revos are very expensive and not too good in the
    snow. I hear the Contis are a bargain and grip
    well in wet or snowy weather.

    Are the continentals H-rated or are they V rated.

    All comments, good or bad, are appreciated.

    I loved the ride of the Audi, but love many
    aspects of the 300M and enjoy the cost savings.
    Enjoy your Audis!

    Easyrider300M
  • tgbeldentgbelden Member Posts: 2
    What could I expect the useful life of an Audi A6 to be, that is driven 15,000 miles per year in the south east?
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    It will be interesting to see what kinds of responses you get to your question. The current generation A6 was introduced as a 1998 model, so I doubt very much that there are many that have reached the ends of their lives!
  • rjsenrjsen Member Posts: 30
    I had an A4 that came with Continentals (H-rated ContiTouring), and they were terrible. Very noisy, poor dry grip, etc. I don't know how they'd do in snow, but I definitely can't recommend them in general. You might look into Pirellis (generally good tires, perhaps a bit pricey) or Yokohamas (good rep, pretty cheap), but the bottom line is that you have to pay to get good tires, and tires that are good in the dry usually aren't too good in the snow. Best thing would be to use Z-rated tires in the summer (Michelin Pilot Sports, Bridgestone Potenza S-02 PPs, etc.) and performance snow tires in the winter (Michelin Pilot Alpins, Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22s, etc.), but I can certainly understand if you don't want to spend that much.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have had 24 Audis since 1978 -- only 1 of them came with good tires (personal opinion). Audi is not alone in "undertiring" their cars. I have certainly never replaced the tires when new, but when I replace the tires, I generally upgrade with what is called "plus 0" sizing. For example, if the car comes with 205 x 55 x 16 tires, 225 x 50 x 16's will work just fine on the factory wheel (the formula is available @ many web based tire stores -- and will make certain you do not "go overboard" on your selection).

    My 2000 Audi A6 4.2 came with 255 x 40 x 17's and they were Dunlop 9000's. These tires have been fantastic -- I would get them again. Unfortunately, my 2001 Audi A6 4.2 Sport came with Continental tires (same size as above) and I do not think they are as good as the Dunlops. I put Pirelli Asymetrico (?) on my 1997 A8 after the factory tires (Goodyear GS-D's) gave up the ghost @ 18,000 miles.

    I generally read the reviews On-line for H,V,&Z rated tires in the size that will accomplish a Plus 0 upgrade -- I look for performance, road noise and durability -- in that order and then I usually buy the "best" I can afford at the moment -- often a major brand name is "on sale" on one of the many web sites that sell tires.

    I generally have them shipped to my dealer and put on the car (mounted and balanced) which means I get to keep using the Audi Advantage (assuming the car has under 50,000 miles on it when I make the switchover.)

    I have found that Audi Quattros take on totally new personalities with Plus 0 sizing and perhaps getting away from the All Season rubber that seems to come on so many cars (from all mfgr.'s) these days. Here in southern Ohio, driving a quattro with ABS and ESP, summer tires provide Year Round drivability and the only time I have even been stuck was when all four tire's contact patches were on "glare" ice (I assume I would have had the same problem with winter -- non-studded -- tires too).

    Pirelli, Michelen, Dunlop, Goodyear, BF Goodrich all seem to have tires that will make substantial improvements in Audi quattros of just about any vintage. Heck, I even had a set of Firestone's that were great on my 1998 A4 2.8 Quattro sport.
  • automophileautomophile Member Posts: 780
    What an interesting question - one with many answers.

    What indicates the end of a car's "life"? Even the worst running car can be kept on life support and kept running forever, like so many VW Beetles still on the road. Perhaps it means when the monthly repairs equal the payments on a new one? What is your definition?

    I had 2 Audi 5000 Turbos that were pushing 130K and 150K when I sold them, and they were still running and looking fine with few repairs, only one had the tranny rebuilt. There is a well cared for Audi 200 in the paper with 230K on it, still running well.

    If you take regular care of your car and don't abuse it, I see no reason 200K+ cannot be expected. I am sure many of the Audi taxis in Europe go 3-400K or more.
  • solman1solman1 Member Posts: 3
    If someone handed you $50,000 and said you can buy one of these cars, BMW 530i, Audi A6 2.7T or
    MB E320 4Matic. Which one would you get?
  • jbarron2jbarron2 Member Posts: 5
    For $50,ooo, consider the Lexus GS 430. It has much more power than the other cars, and with the L-Tuned suspension and steering upgrade from the Lexus dealer, it will smoke a BMW 540I. Heck of a value!
  • jbarron2jbarron2 Member Posts: 5
    Can anyone comment on the reliability of the A6 2.7T????

    I was considering this vehicle in conjunction with the very reliable Lexus GS 430. The audi does have much more supportive seating though!
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    ...I'd start by trying to work a deal on an A6 4.2 V8; if the numbers didn't crunch, I'd go with the 2.7T.

    You don't need me to tell you that all 3 are fine cars, and I'm sure that any one of them would be a pleasure to own. Personally, I find the BMW to be a little too small (cramped) inside and its interior a little too stark.

    The Benz is looking a bit long in the tooth, and while there's nothing offensive about its styling, there's nothing very exciting about it, either.

    The A6, in my opinion, is the best blend of room, luxury, sportiness, styling, and value of just about everything out there. Mine's only a 2.8 (with quattro and Tiptronic), and it still makes me grin from ear to ear every time I get in it. I just went to the San Francisco auto show last week and revisited the BMW and Benz, and I still find both to be pale in comparison with the A6.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Your list of cars for $50,000 could have included the Audi A6 4.2 (list price $48,900). With the obvious bias that this forum tends toward, the A6 4.2 with premium package and sport package minus the "normal" off - sticker discount would be the car that would blow all the others away -- but perhaps not be the winner in the majority of "contests."

    The BMW and the Lexus will probably beat the A6 to 60 mph (but the A6 4.2 will beat virtually every other car you will encounter -- and in this class, there just aren't that many cars on the road). So if you are dead set on 0-60 acceleration as your key criteria, well. . . pick the quickest car.

    On dry pavement each of these three cars have similar statistics (measuring handling, braking, acceleration, etc.). The Lexus "feels" the most different of the three -- for you this may be a good thing.

    The BMW seems to be somewhat cramped inside -- but if you are not going to be in the back seat much -- or ever, who cares?

    Everything about the Audi seems understated, perhaps almost spartan by comparison to the Lexus, with the BMW being somewhere in-between. The Audi will probably be the least expensive of the three when all are comparably equipped (sticker only, your dealer's discount may even the score, or not).

    The Audi, with all-wheel drive, ESP and the sport suspension option is a very well balanced vehicle -- balanced in the sense that it does everything well, one or two things very well and one thing better than the rest (the quattro advantage).

    When, if ever, there is a BMW 540ix (which would possibly be the way an all-wheel-drive BMW would be named) I can only imagine it would then be the King of the $50,000 [super] sport sedans.

    In the meantime, the A6 4.2 quattro sport is deserving of your most critical consideration, in the price range you mentioned.
  • rjsenrjsen Member Posts: 30
    For a $50k A6, I'd *much* rather have a loaded 2.7T than a bare 4.2. The 4.2 looks a little better and will likely be smoother riding and easier to maintain, but the 2.7T is much more of a performance car. With the 6-speed, it'll do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. Even auto vs. auto (since the 4.2 is only available with the Tiptronic), the 2.7T is a little faster (6.6 vs. 6.7). Plus, you can chip the 2.7T and shave almost a second off that.

    As far as BMWs, the 540i is the only one that could compete, but it starts at like $53k. Great car, but it doesn't fit the criteria. The 530i just isn't as good a car on any count as the A6 2.7T.

    The E320 is nice enough, but again, can't really compete with the A6 2.7T.

    If the question were V8 midsize luxury sedans under $60k, it would be a really tough call between the A6 4.2, 540i, and E430. As long as were sticking under $50k, though, the A6 2.7T wins easily.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    It's hard for me to think of any A6 4.2 as being "bare", even if it has no options. As for performance, if you can actually perceive that tenth of a second edge the Tiptronic 2.7T has in its 0-60 time, you're a better man than I am! Besides, what's the point? If 0-60 times are the main concern, no A6 should be the primary candidate; the cars are about so much more than 0-60 times.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the 2.7T; I get envious every time I see one while driving in my "lowly" 2.8Q. Especially if one wants a high-performance sedan with a 6-speed, there's nothing else that can touch it. I just disagree that its ability to get from 0-60 a tenth of a second quicker is a sound reason to buy it instead of a 4.2. Its available 6-speed, significantly lower price, availability without leather & moonroof, 3-person back seat, those reasons make sense to me.

    By the way, speaking of performance chips, don't forget the other side. They add stress to the engine that it isn't designed for and can shorten the life of critical parts AND void the vehicle's warranty.
  • dwpcdwpc Member Posts: 159
    I think a 2.7T MSRP maxes out well below $50K with all options. The 4.2 pricing starts there. If mileage is a consideration, the 2.7T is economical (over 20 mpg) if you can keep your right foot under control. Can't imagine the 4.2 engine doing as well.
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    I have a 2.7T on order, but if money were no object, I'd take the 4.2. If $50K is your target, it should be no problem to bargain down to $50K for a very well equipped 4.2 An observation on Mark's nice idea of a 540ix; considering the way BMW prices cars, it is more likely to be the king of $65K cars.
  • rjsenrjsen Member Posts: 30
    I didn't mean to say that 0-60 times are everything. Obviously, cars like these are about much more than raw power. However, the primary difference between the 2.7T and the 4.2 is the engine, and in this department I don't see the 4.2 as having much of an edge. The only other differences I can think of are the back seat (not that the 4.2's is necessarily better) and the 4.2's availability with a heated steering wheel. I just don't see a different (though not really more powerful) engine and a heated wheel as being worth the additional expense. And either of these points pales in comparison to the 2.7T being available with a stick. Even if money weren't an issue, I'm not sure I'd the 4.2.
  • 314314 Member Posts: 2
    Just based on the three cars you mentioned, I feel that the Audi A6 would be the most fun to drive, day in and day out.
    The 2.7T has good power , some lag though, where the 4.2 V8 responds quicker, no turbo lag. If using 1/2 to 3/4 throttle the 4.2 feels smoother, it doesn't have that all or nothing acceleration that the 2.7T has. THey are about even to 60 and 1/4, 2.7T has more aftermarket options at this point. 4.2 has better exterior looks, while I like the backseat in the 2.7T better. A6 also has the 2.8 option with quattro. Less power but all the bells and whistles of the 2.7T.
    The MB and the BMW are nice, but I think 3 years from now you will still get a kick outta driving the A6.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Not owning either, I don't claim to be the best-qualified person to compare the two. My limited experience, though, suggests that while both engines produce very similar 0-60 times, their personalities are actually quite different from each other. While a biturbo isn't nearly as susceptible as a single turbo, lag will always be present. It's inherent to the way turbochargers work. Some will find turbo lag to be objectionable, others won't.

    While the 2.7T is a fabulous engine, for my buck there's nothing quite as sweet as a V8, and Audi's 4.2 is one of the sweetest V8s I've ever experienced. It has a smoothness, evenness to its power curve, immediacy in its response, and exhaust note that no 6-cylinder engine (turbocharged or not) can hope to equal. Add to that the A6 4.2's unique styling elements and it becomes a no-brainer for me. Make mine in 4.2-exclusive Nemo Blue, please!
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Well, it's clear that you have a real dilemma on your hands! I doubt that I'll be able to be of much more help to you in your decision process. From this point you'll have to rely mostly on your own judgement. I will, however, gladly share a few more thoughts; hopefully, they're of some help to you.

    Just last week, I spent a lot of time looking at the new C320 at the San Francisco auto show. Now, you need to understand that I've been a member of the "Mercedes Benz admiration society" since my college days, so I was prepared to fall in love with the new C Class. Here's my take: They did a wonderful job with the car. Its styling suggests that of a miniature S Class, and that's a good thing. The car reeks of quality, and it's all Benz. Though I haven't driven one, I'm sure that it's a pleasure to drive. All in all, I really liked the car. Having said that, in my opinion it can't compete with the A6; it's simply too small. The car feels cramped to me, perhaps because I'm so used to the spaciousness of my A6. The C320 is especially tight in back.

    There are other things, too. The interior, while certainly nice, pales when compared to that of the A6. Did you notice the C320's yellow instruments and interior illumination? The very incomplete instrumentation? In addition, heated rear seats are unavailable and the interior door trim has a cheap look to it. Personally, while the C320 is a very nice car in an absolute sense, I find that it competes more on the A4's playing field than it does on the A6's.

    As for the Lexus, it's also a tough car to find fault with. Perhaps that's its biggest drawback, though. It's SO smooth, SO mannerly, and SO civilized that it can easily be considered boring. In my opinion, there's nothing "sporty" about it; in fact, I kind of regard Lexus as the "Buick" of the Japanese brands! If that's what you want, then the GS may be perfect for you; if you want a car with some soul to it, though, I'd stay away from Lexus. Another thing about the GS is the instruments. The "Timex Indiglo" look would wear on me before too long. On the other hand, Audi's white on black dials with red pointers are fabulous, among the best in the industry. The same can be said for the rest of the Audi interior.

    Regarding turbochargers, other than strict adherence to the factory oil & filter changing schedule, they require no additional maintenance. Pretty much the only special treatment they require these days is a minute or so of cool-down after hard driving before shutting down the engine. For what it's worth, I also own a '92 Volvo 940 Turbo. It has 255,000 miles on the original turbo, and it still blows strongly. Like you, I maintain the car exactly in accord with the manual, and it seems to be paying off.

    As for long-term reliability, I think all of the cars you're considering are safe bets. Keep in mind that they're all highly sophisticated and complex; any of them can develop one or more serious problems, but it's unlikely that such problems can be predicted. While I don't personally believe that they represent a good value, extended warranties can provide peace of mind and you may want to consider one regardless of which car you decide on.

    At the risk of repeating myself, I offer one other suggestion: Given the high quality of the cars you're considering, forget for a moment things like warranties, depreciation, anticipated reliability, price, and availability (wait time); instead, consider, for the moment, ONLY which car you like the best. Consider those things about the cars themselves that matter to you; those things probably include styling, comfort, power train performance, handling, features, overall feel of the car, and (this is a big one) how you feel inside when you drive it. My hunch is that, upon doing this little exercise, one of your contenders will emerge a clear winner. In my case, following this process resulted in a slam-dunk for the A6. I ordered in late January, waited quite impatiently until early June, and then took delivery. NEVER since getting the car have I wished for anything else. I hope that you end up as happy with your upcoming decision, regardless of which car you choose.

    Good luck, and let me know if I can be of further help.

    - Mike
  • merwaniranimerwanirani Member Posts: 8
    To Mike (mpuzach)
    Thanks for the advice. I saw a Silver/Onyx 2.7T in our parking lot (visitors) at work. It looked great. I am just going crazy over this car. I WILL hunker down this weekend and decide. The wait time is critical for us because my wife doesn't feel happy driving our 929S (still in repair!). So getting a car NOW is the other factor we have to taken into account. Thanks for your input once again. I will keep you posted.
    merwanirani
  • jbarron2jbarron2 Member Posts: 5
    You may want to consider the Lexus GS430. I know a dealer here in San Diego is doing $1600 over invoice, so the price fits within range of a 2.7T and its other competitors. The lexus has the vest v8 of the lot. I have test driven the A6 4.2 & 2.7T. The Lexus v8 is has much more torque, and you can feel it at any speed. It has the best engine hands down. However, the seat is something else. It offers little to no support. Audi has the best driver seat, better than BMW and Merc. But some people find the seat just fine.... I ordered an A6 2.7T, but I can't get the GS430 out of my mind. It has great handling with the 17 wheels. The instrument panel is different, that's for sure, but the Levinson audio is a cut above the rest. It makes the Audi Bose radio sound like junk!

    When considering automobiles of this caliber, the decision is very hard. Here is my summation of what I have looked at...

    Audi 2.7T A6
    Awesome handling, very comfortable seat, nice instrument panel. Boring exterior styling. Engine has lag, not the most powerful.

    Adui 4.2 A6
    More serene ride, as heavier car. Handling not quite as good as 2.7T. Great smooth V8, but not as torquey as the Lexus V8. Aggresive styling, and $6200 off MSRP for a year 2K if you can find one with a color you like.

    Lexus GS300
    BORING

    Lexus GS430
    Awesome powerplant. Aggresive styling. Interesting instrument panel. Awesome radio. Seats are the worst! With L-Tuned suspension upgrade, handles like a BMW 540.

    BMW 540
    Expensive, dealers are not discounting this car. Expensive! Seats are ok, engine is ok, instrument panel is old, has not been updated for many years. This model is due for a change in 2002. Expensive!

    Merc.
    I have not driven this one. I would compare with the 430 series, but perhaps this may be rather expensive and completely out of the league.

    As you can probably tell, I'm debating between the A6 2.7T and the Lexus GS430. Both can go fast, but the GS430 has much more life in it after 60 mph. If you want a quick sprint to 100 or 130mph, the Lexus can do it very fast. The audi can't. After 60mph, the A6 2.7T lacks the torque to push you into the seat.

    As for comfort, the Audi A6 wins easily.

    As for handling, even with the L-Tuned sport package in the Lexus, I think the 4 wheel drive is a definate advantage around hairpin turns. So Audi wins here, but not by much.

    Resale value: Lexus GS 430 easily. JD Powers has given Lexus many awards for quality. Consumer reports loves Lexus, and hates Audi. JD Powers does not favor Audi at all. The posts regarding A6 reliability are not very convincing. There are problems with the turbos, transmission, drivetrain, wind noise, vibration, etc.... Nothing bad seen about the Lexus.

    Value: Lexus. Dealers are dealing on both cars from what I have seen. About $1500 to $2K over invoice appears common. Lexus will cost you a little more, but the resale will be much higher as seen with the selling prices of used GS 400's.

    Anyway, I have a 2.7T on order, probably another 3 months before I see it, and the Lexus GS430 keeps calling....... I just can't stop thinking about it. If money were not an issue, I would buy both.
  • bollingerbollinger Member Posts: 207
    Edmunds lists Audi TMV as $37,061
    GS430 TMV as $45K

    That's a bit of a stretch to see if they are the same. Resale will probably be better than the Audi, unless Lexus changes the engine again. Check the resale on a GS400 two years from now. The new GS430 model will most certainly have given the GS400 resale a whack. Cancelling/replacing a model always immediately reduces its resale.
  • jackj42jackj42 Member Posts: 6
    My two cents:

    I owned a GS400 for two years, and am picking up an Audi 2001 A6 4.2 next week in Cincinnati. I looked at the 540i, and drove a new GS 430. I didn't look at the Mercedes. There is no question that if you only look at dry pavement numbers for performance, the Lexus is the best value. I can't explain why, but I became bored with the car more quickly than any other I have owned. I don't think that will happen with the A6. Much more distinctive styling, better interior, many more safety features than the Lexus. The BMW was too small, too stark on the inside, and there is a big difference in trunk space. My feeling was that the car rode too rough for an everyday four door sedan, although I know some would argue I must be getting too old.

    I am paying cash for the car, and did get an
    almost fully optioned 4.2 (minus sport package, but with 17" wheels, and minus nav., but most other options, for $50K even or about $3K off sticker. I couldn't get that deal in the state I live in currently. The fact that I also own a '00 C5 corvette convertible that I can drive when I want to accelerate quickly and feel most inconsistencies in the road also made the decision easy for me. I believe if the car is maintained well it will last as long and be as reliable as any other German sedan.

    some final comments on why I paid the extra over the 2.7T.. front end styling, the lack of good looking wheels on the 2.7 (I know this could be remedied with aftermarket wheels), and the more consistent feel and road presence of the 4.2 over the 2.7. I can't explain it, but it felt bigger, stronger and more stable than the 2.7. Bottom line, all the cars mentioned are great products, it is just a matter of personal preference.

    Jack
  • jim3039jim3039 Member Posts: 28
    Merwan, Thanks for the LA Dealer recommendations. I actually drove the A6 at Rusnak. I am trying very hard to keep to my under 40K comfort budget and feel like I'm 80% there in making the A6 2.8 my car of choice. I was very pleased to see that the C-Class was on your list as I REALLY wanted to consider this car, but kept telling myself it was just too small when compared to the class of cars in my consideration set. And from the exchanges between you and Mike, my fears were correct regarding size. I just am really taken with the styling and dash design. I may still drive it before making my final choice, but 40K seems like a lot of $$ for an entry level car. Plus, it's a first year model with a long wait for delivery and no negotiating ability. However, your comments seem to indicate that I may have to wait for an A6 as well. If, so, please tell me what you've heard. And is it the case for a 2.8?

    Mike,
    Several conversations ago you mentioned pics of A6 interior combinations. If the offer is still open, I would like to take a look at what you have. Let me know.

    Thanks to everyone for the great exchange of information. It makes the whole process so much better!

    Jim
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Tim:

    I agree, if ever there is a 540ix -- it will certainly be WELL over $50,000 and optioned out will certainly be, as you say, the KING of the $65,000 super sedans.

    There actually seems to be more price wiggle room at the dealer for an A6 4.2, especially if they have a couple in stock, than there is on the 2.7T.
    Hmmm?

    The exception I found was a 2.7T with a 6 speed manual -- the dealer said "big discount" apparently because there is so little demand for anything other than the 2.7T Automatic. More's the pity.

    I love the price point of the 2.7T, but the 4.2 just "feels and drives" so much better!

    I just took delivery of a 2001 A6 4.2 with Premium , Sport, Rear Air Bags, Navigation, factory Phone, Nemo blue w/Melange leather -- no CD changer. Good deal, good lease (Audi financial) and great ride (although the tires could be better, but this is a tiny nit to pick). This car is a blast.

    The dealer in Cincinnati is Northland Audi -- FYI.
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    I'm not surprised a dealer is willing to negotiate more readily on the 4.2's, but the story can be very different from salesman to salesman and dealer to dealer. I suspect you've already visited Edmunds' pricing info. As you can see there's a $4K to $5K+ margin on the 2.7T and 4.2, depending on options. When negotiating a lease recently, my leasing company (not Audi Financial) got two quotes. One was $1,700 over dealer invoice and the second was $1,100 over. Another poster closed a deal with the second dealer for $1,200 over a couple of weeks later. The prices were for 2.7T tips here in NJ, which is a pretty hot Audi market. So good deals can be had. I think it is a matter of knowing what the going rate is, and finding a dealer/salesperson who really wants the sale.
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    I saw the Nemo blue A6 4.2 with grey interior on their showroom floor. It was GORGEOUS!!!
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    The offer regarding pics is absolutely still open. I'd be only too happy to share what I have with you. The most common 2001 A6 interior color combos, Tungsten Gray, Satin Black (Onyx), and Melange leather are very easy to see in person at any dealer; since you've already visited Rusnak in Pasadena I assume that you've seen them. In addition, I can show you pictures of Vanilla/Royal Blue, Maroon/Black, and Tungsten Gray cloth. If you need to see Vanilla/Satin Black, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up.

    Do you have the '01 A6 brochure? If not, I can also provide you with any info you may want regarding standard equipment, options, available interior/exterior color combinations, etc. Just send me your e-mail address and a list of the information you want, and I'll get on it for you.

    By the way, I visited Diablo Audi in Concord (northern CA) today and spoke with Ernst Gosch (the no. 1 producing Audi salesperson in the country!). They have at least 20 new A6s in dealer stock, according to my count. They have many 2.8s, several 2.7Ts, and at least a few 4.2s. Colors include melange, Ming Blue, Light Silver Metallic, Brilliant Black, Cashmere Gray, and Racing Green. If by chance you're looking for an A6 in So. Cal. but can't find one that meets your needs, you might try calling Ernst at Diablo. Otherwise, if you want to e-mail me with what you're looking for, I'd be glad to check around up here for availability.

    - Mike
  • automophileautomophile Member Posts: 780
    I really LOVED my ES300. It is really a bargain for the overall quality of the car and the great dealer service. I sadly sold it because the crappy driver's seat was KILLING me! NO support! After 10-15 minutes I was fidgeting constantly, my right leg was aching. No thigh or lateral support!

    I bought a Solara to bide my time waiting for the 2.7 T to come out. The Solara is from the same Toyota parent as the Lexus, but has GREAT seats! The seat bottom is fully 4" longer with 3x the tilt for great comfort. Lexus is really dropping the ball on this one. I looked at the GS and even the LS and they have the SAME crappy short seats!

    I agree the GS430 is a gem, but if you are considering one, be sure to drive it for 30 minutes or longer first - you may be really sorry later if you don't!

    I had 4 Audis in the past, and can't wait to get into another one. Thanks Mike for all your constructive information.
  • jbarron2jbarron2 Member Posts: 5
    I drove both the 2.7T and 4.2 again this morning at another dealer in San Diego. The 2.7T did not have sports suspension, so the seats were terrible! The ride was noisy but power was ok.

    The 4.2 did not have sports package either, but had gray seats of different caliber, and felt very good and comfy. The handling was pretty good, considering the larger tires. The power upto 80mph seemed the same, but smoother than the turbo. I preferred the smoothness and sound of the V8, and also the ride was smoother, and more quiet. I ruled out the turbo and now my choices are either a 4.2 Audi A6 or the Lexus GS 430.

    Eventhough the seats in the Lexus are unsupportive, they could easily be bolstered up by a good upholstery shop, for less than a few hundred dollars. Provided this was accomplished, the seat would be much better.

    I still felt the Lexus had a better ride due to the quietness of the cabin at freeway speeds, and the much better radio, the Levinson. The Audi Bose pales in comparison to the Lexus Levinson Audio Package.

    Considering the facts above, I am very torn between the two cars. If I purchase the Audi 4.2, I can still get $6200 off MSRP on a 2000 model. THe price will be around $46K. Lexus pricing will be around $46K to $48 depending on options. But, add the price of the L-Tuned suspension and steering upgrade, $1200, and upgrading the seats, $200, and the car starts to be more expensive.

    The Audi 4.2 is NOT as powerful as the Lexus and strains past 80mph, where as the Lexus pulls strong to 100mph. However, 99.9% of the time will be spent at 65mph or less! But in the rare instance we want to have some fun, it is nice to know you can get to 100 pretty quickly.

    I think I need to drive the 4.2 again. It is a pretty good deal, looks aggresive, seats are great, engine is ok, not great, but smooth.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Something must have been wrong. My 2.8 doesn't even do that. I've only had it to 100 or so (chose to back off after that) and it was still pulling strong. The 4.2 ought to have plenty of guts well past 120.
  • bollingerbollinger Member Posts: 207
    It gets to 100 in 14 secs or something? Only takes 40 secs to get to 137mph top speed.

    I can't imagine the 4.2 backs off too much.
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