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Audi A6

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Comments

  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Didn't mean to suggest that the Audi mgrs and engineers are unconcerned with reliability. We just didn't go deeply into that issue in our discussions, and they certainly didn't volunteer the topic. Since I was a guest at their facility, I was also not going to [non-permissible content removed] about the little frustrations with my own A4 3.0. (And they gave us a lot of little gifts--Audi pens, Audi neckties, little A3 and A6 cars to take home to my kids, free tour of the museum, etc. so I wanted to stay on their good side! 8-)

    I'm overall pleased with my car, but it's weird how the little stuff breaks down. Knock on wood, my car has not had any major problems in 40,000 miles. Causes me to pause before I trade up to the new A6, however.

    Drove the RL yesterday. Very nice. Could use a bit more power and bigger back seat, but this car is impressive. And I wish it didn't look so much like an Accord on the outside.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The writer from Business Week called to discuss "Audi" with me today -- we talked about 25 minutes or so. At first I think I heard her jaw hit the table when I told her, since 1977, we have had some 27 Audi cars.

    She got down to asking me, in effect, what I thought was "wrong" with Audis current go to market strategy. She apparently had been told by SOMEONE, not me, I assure you, of bad Audi dealer experiences and about poor Audi reliability.

    For the record, I told her my Audis has been very reliable and my dealer had been "like entering the lobby of a 5 star hotel" and that indeed, Audi of America has been above and beyond a great company to do business with -- we'll see if my praise and my "critique" makes it to the article or if any of my remarks, period, make it to the article.

    I was hard on Audi's MARKETING and high on Audis cars and pricing schemes (this latter point, I underscored "historically" as I am currently frustrated by Audis current pricing schemes). We discussed the new A6 and the upcoming Audi SUV's which I said I thought were both late to market and "almost a why bother" at this point. I did add that having an SUV, however, is part of the ante to play in this game in the US.

    Here is an analysis, that in some measure I shared with the reporter:

    Pretty much all optioned A6 3.2 = $54,770

    2005 BMW 530

    Scenario #1: Equipped as close to an A6 as possible -- $57,620

    Scenario #2: Priced as close as possible to an A6 -- $54,320

    Comparison on Audiusa vs BMWusa:

    Term 36 months
    Miles 15,000 per year

    Cap cost reduction $2,500

    $54,770 Audi leases at $834 per month

    $57,620 BMW leases at $736 per month

    $54,320 BMW leases at $690 per month

    Difference:

    A $57,770 BMW costs $3,528 less to lease

    A $54,320 BMW costs $5,184 less to lease

    =====

    There are two primary factors that make this possible: either the money factor (aka interest) or the residual (how much depreciation).

    I do not care if you are buying or leasing or financing -- you want the car that can be had with the lowest money factor and the highest residual.

    =====

    Audi has squandered away one of its long-term product differentiators -- quattro.

    Audi has been often thought of as a "smart money" car (big bang for buck).

    Audi has through continuous product improvement (and frankly high content, relatively speaking) lost [apparently] its ability to deliver a Premium car at a "not quite" premium price -- price parity, when residuals are factored in, has been attained by and between Audi and BMW (for instance -- and since Audi's "arch rival" is and has been BMW, this is as it should be).

    BMW soon will offer both 3's and 5's in AWD -- they already have X3's and X5's (most folks would call them SUV's even if BMW itself calls them SAV's) -- Audi's "prime" difference is eroding and eroding pretty rapidly.

    Couple all of this with the high line and mid line vehicles from Europe, Japan and the US that can be had with AWD and Audi is in some jeopardy of being seen by those not aware of "the 25th anniversary of quattro" as the "same as everyone else" in that [AWD] regard.

    Audi for many of us has been and perhaps remains in a leadership position.

    Best kept secret in the auto world, from where I sits!

    According to Audis own annual report, it came pretty close to selling 800,000 cars world wide last year (10% in the US, approximately and a somewhat smaller number sold in China, with the remainder selling in Europe and perhaps a dozen or so thousand in Japan) -- less than 30% of these were AWD versions. Yet, here in North America, according to my dealer (this is NOT, that is, from an Audi Published Statistic), over 90% of the Audis sold are quattros.

    But with less than 80,000 (US) Audis sold in 2004 (which was over a 9% decline in sales!) -- most non-Audi owners are not first and foremost aware that Audi = AWD. "Does Audi come to your mind first when thinking of AWD cars?"

    Direct answer, no. Ask the "person on the street" 3/4 of them will respond to the question asked identically over and over "Subaru!"

    Audi of America must not have anyone who is surfin' the net vetting the competition's web site configurators and financing alternatives.

    Just for grins, I maxed out an Infiniti G35x -- it came to a bit over $39,000; then I maxed out an A4 2.0T, it came (equipped as close as I could make it) to a hair under $40,000.

    Then, using just google and 15 minutes of my life, I found test report after test report about the Infiniti and the previous generation (B6) A4 3.0.

    There is one on C&D's website which tests 7 $35,000+ sport sedans -- the A4 comes in 5th! The Infiniti comes in 1st!

    Oh, the ignominy.

    Now, today, a $40,000 A4 has a 200 hp engine and a 50,000 mile warranty. And its Infiniti competitor has a 280 hp engine and a 60,000 mile warranty.

    Ouch!

    Why ouch? Because I am a fan of the brand Audi and they seem to be engineering and building to this very day great cars. They seem to be, broadly speaking (from 25 feet if you squint) priced "mostly appropriately" (speaking of MSRP).

    Yet, Euro Dollar fluctuations cannot be blamed for the totally out of whack pricing if one cares about monthly payments or about residual value (regardless of the way one acquired the car in the first place: cash, financed or leased, that is).

    They have, from where I sit, frittered away 25 years worth of heritage -- "lost opportunity, lost opportunity, lost opportunity!" Even my buddy who just got an X5 remembers the four little angles flying next to the X5 in the commercials -- but the memory of the Audi 5000 CS turbo quattro climbing UP THE SKI JUMP RAMP is long since gone (1986?)

    Sure, Audi has about the youngest products in the segment (but, wait a minute, here comes the new Bimmers, Infinitis, Cadillacs, Chryslers even, not to mention the apparently interesting Passat with 280 HP and many of the Phaeton goodies, and Lexus and Volvo and pretty soon, one would think, even SAAB will wake up!)

    Of course, now Subaru looks like it might be sticking its toe onto the next rung or so up the automotive pecking order ladder.

    All the accolades in the world received by the new and wonderful A6 will not withstand the close scrutiny that even we dummies can muster with google.

    Where was I?

    Oh yea, just a tiny bit frustrated.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    ignominy

    1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace
    2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action

    Am I the only one who goes scrambling for the dictionary after reading Mark’s posts

    Mr. vocabulary (Mr. Lexicon?)

    Very articulate…or…extremely articulate…now I’m second guessing my self…heh
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    you've certainly been given the opportunity to tell the public about the lay of the land regarding Audi

    Whether anyone will listen is an interesting question.

    That Audi has gotten to where it is in today's market at all speaks well for the brand. What's next?

    That said, "you da man." I couldn't imagine a better spokesperson to put forth their cause.

    This from a confirmed buyer who won't touch an Audi (at the moment) to a confirmed lessor (for all the right reasons) who's bonded to the brand.

    When they piss off people like you, they're toast.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Voluntarily owning 27 Audis in 28 years warrants some kind of special award! You are the Man. I only hope that resale values have treated you kindly over the years.

    I must challenge your comment that Audi has squandered 25 yrs. of heritage. You can argue Audi has been on two different historical paths in the U.S....pre and post the 60 Minutes unintended acceleration debacle that nearly killed its US presence. Over the past 8 yrs, this brand has reinvented itself, enjoying renewed success thanks mostly to the A4. The A6 (and arguably the A8) have ridden the coat tails of its younger brother. I bet a miniscule slice of A4/A6 owners previously drove 4000's, 5000's, 100's, 200's, much less even heard of the GT, Fox, 100LS, etc.

    All the while, Audi's total U.S. market share is what...1.5%? It remains a pretty small fish in a large pond.

    Less than 30% of Audi's total sales are quattro because they sell an awful lot of A2/A3/A4 models with diesel and FWD. Many A6's in Europe are also diesel, as are BMWs. 90% of German taxi cabs are Mercedes E-class cars (many with manual transmissions). What M-B, BMW, and Audi sell in the U.S. are far different than what they sell within their global markets.

    Although C&D was not so kind to the A4 in its recent comparison test, it has chosen the A4/S4 in its "10 Best cars" 2 or 3 times in recent yrs. C&D goes ga-ga for superior power-to-weight ratios, handling, and 0-60 or 1/4 times. Quattro unfortunately adds too much weight to garner C&D's lovefest in these comparisons. The G35 that won the comparo was RWD, and 270+ HP in a lighter car will always trump 220 in the heavier A4.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My point about Audi squandering one of its most significant market differentiators was primarily directed at one region: North America. The sales statsistics reported by AoA despite a total increase (worldwide) in Audi sales, would seem to indicate that there is trouble in Ingostadt (or better, Troy, MI):

    "The USA remains the biggest export market with sales of 77,917 cars (down 9.8 percent). China set a new sales record of 64,018 units (up 0.8 percent), while Japan increased its total by 4.7 percent to 13,751 cars."

    The piece that is missing from this quote is:

    "Audi boosted sales in Western Europe (including Germany) by 2.1 percent to 559,428 cars."

    And, more telling:

    "One of the individual markets with the highest growth rate is Great Britain, where Audi sales have more than doubled in just seven years. This market expanded by 11.1 percent to 77,882 units in 2004 alone."

    AoA represents the largest export market (over GB by 35 cars!) and AoA sales declined. This market is the "if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere" market. This is, apparently, an extremely tough market. Perhaps @1.5% it IS irrelevant. I don't think Audi execs think this way. This relatively tiny portion of total Audi sales and the even tinier portion that Audi represents of US sales are, indeed, "the mouse, er the flea that roars."

    My contentions and conclusions related, "only," to the North American market. 2004 was a good year for Audi -- but a decline of 9.8% for AoA in 2004 cannot possibly be seen as a good thing.

    And, although I grant and understand that the A4/S4 (and the A6's too and NOW the A8) have been placed on several "best" lists, this did not propel the sales. Indeed, even with hugely attractive deals on its then available line (here in the US) sales declined 9.8%. Against a backdrop of known new product? Yea, sure; but, this was not only true in the US -- those in the UK certainly knew of new Audis in the pipeline. Sales there were UP 11%!

    Audi certainly seems to be a globally successful car company. I sing the praises (mostly) of their products. I simply pointed out the 7 $35K sedan comparo where the A4 came in 5th and the Infiniti 1st. My point was not to say "see the cars truly are not what they're cracked up to be." My point was to say what can be found out by googling -- and I do maintain that those potential first time Audi buyers (and younger buyers who know little to nothing about acceleration, Unintended or otherwise) may access such data points and arrive at the conclusion that Audis are "all yack and no shack, all hat and no cattle," or some other phrase suggesting the emperor has no clothes.

    I limit my critique, analysis and disappointment with the current iteration of Audi (of America) primarily to Audi of America and specifically to MARKETING.

    Others on this erudite forum may challenge my assertion that Audis do not have a significant reliability issue. Some may even believe that I am frustrated because the current Audi lease program seems out of touch with reality (overall market declines of Auto sales, leap to mind and BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti [just to name three] lease programs that seem to suggest that Audis are overpriced and/or depreciate "faster than a speeding bullet.") Ok, I am frustrated.

    My concerns, to peat and repeat, have much more to do with the phrase "perception is reality" -- this is, at least superficially, a marketing challenge. Audi of America's marketing machine needs a tune-up.

    In my above example (lease prices comparing Audi and BMW), I am not suggesting I would lease the BMW (I would NOT have the current RWD 5 series, regardless of the apparent attractiveness of the lease deal -- and the concomitant assumption that this must mean Audis don't hold their value very well at all.) What I am suggesting is that the coveted customer class is "young" (younger than I -- age 53); well educated (degreed at least one -- at least I pass that qualifier) and "upper middle class [a 6 figure household income]" (as the man said, "my girlfriend broke up with me, there's milk and cookies at the house and there's a new Pousette Dart album on the stereo -- 2 out of 3 ain't bad!")

    Audi wants my employees as customers -- I'd like to think they would like to keep me -- but I may be yesterday's news.

    The folks who I work with are in their 30's make high five figures to low six figures and some have MBA's (from name brand schools) -- these are the folks Audi wants to have as "conquest" customers. These are the "young" men and women who will have fully vetted their short list of cars (which, truth be told, do include the Audi and BMW and the Acura RL and TL, etc.) and when they see the monthly payments, they will simply stop looking at the Audi when they can have a new Bimmer for a lot less.

    Hey, its America -- the folks I work with are all too imbued with the notion that all things being similar, price wins.

    Audi doesn't -- currently -- seem to be cognizant of this.

    Remember Audi has offered 25 years of quattro, but that differentiation will be, where was I???

    And, Audi was (past tense) budget premium -- and, currently, that moniker would go to BMW.

    I am being somewhat jingoistic in these musings -- as I am only speaking of Audi in the North American market. They, thus far, don't need my help in the rest of the world -- where they're doing just fine, thank you very much and have a nice day.

    Hence, to repeat, my frustration.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Mark-you raise many good points. I feel your pain.

    The U.S. is indeed a tough and fickle market. Way too many SUVs and trucks, but that's unfortunately what Americans inexplicably adore. The ability to sit up high like a king (or queen), yak on our phones, and go to Home Depot once a month in our 10 mpg uber tanks. So sad that almost none of us can figure out a manual transmission if our lives depended on it...

    Audi certainly has its issues, but I believe BMW and M-B are feeling similar pain. And VW, Volvo and Saab have also got to be writhing these days. But so are the Big Three...and let's not even get into Mitsubishi's serious issues.

    The auto market is glutted with too many marquees and too many unnecessary models. No question there will be a thinning of the herd. I don't believe Audi will be a victim, but I predict in 10 years, at least 3 major brands that we know of today will be a distant memory.

    The Asian makers are relentless, and it will only get more painful for those that can't cut the mustard in the American consumer's eyes. And now, the Chinese, Korean, and (South and East)Indian consumers are beginning to flex more muscle in both their home markets, as well here in the U.S. Audi must figure out a way to appeal to them, and they still have an opportunity and edge, IMO. Ford/GM/Chrysler already realize it, but it's too late for them. Their collective market share will continue to slip for years to come.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I agree with almost everything you wrote -- but one.

    There are, apparently, NOT ENOUGH choices -- the market keeps saying "I want it my way." There are amost 200 more car models available here than in the recent last century. More models and car brands are in the pipeline.

    The market wants mass customization; and, there will always be room at the top. For all I know, there MAY even be room at the bottom (although I am not as confident of that).

    It will certainly be interesting when the new Passat AWD nice V6 grunt and equipped with a 106" wheelbase and quite a few lux trappings (from the Phaeton parts bin) hits the streets. VW, the new "budget" luxury. It could happen, if the nagging dealership problems were erased.

    Anyway -- the A6, today, is at the top of the list (its in all the papers). That does carry some weight. Competition from BMW and Infiniti and Lexus and even VW will do us all good (including Audi).

    Oh, and I stand corrected -- the percentage of North American Audis that are quattro is "less than" not more than 90%. In any case it is about triple what it is elsewhere.

    Audi needs to not only be the "me too" AWD car, it needs to tell people it has been in that technology space for 25 years.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    We are getting way off topic on the A6, but we can agree to disagree on whether there are too many options in the automotive market. I firmly believe the pendulum has shifted to the point there are WAY TOO MANY models and choices, and it is inevitable that there must be a significant retrenting and many of the auto manufacturers are in for much pain in the next 2-3 yrs.

    In virtually every category (SUVS to pickups to luxury to near-luxury to wannabe-luxury to midsize to entry-level to hybrids to sports cars), the consumer is or will be faced with unprecedented choices. But the market simply cannot sustain this.

    We are on the heels of record-breaking auto sales between 1999 and 2004. Average car prices have risen dramatically in the past 5 yrs thanks to safety, technology and cutting edge designs. Leases are no longer the value they used to represent. (And in spite of leases which force people to replace every 2-4 yrs, the average age of a car on the road is pushing 7+ yrs today, and getting longer due to greater reliability.)

    Americans are in debt to their ears. The stock market is in for flat or down years, and inflation and interest rates are both headed up. Tort reform and medical cost mgmt doesn't bode well for lawyers and doctors, and customer empowerment has changed the role of realtors and investment professionals (ie: fewer luxury cars to be bought). Hopefully the war will end in the next 12-24 mos.(???)

    It's a very tenuous cocktail, and it doesn't bode well for the auto market.

    Just my opinion. But for those who can afford nice cars, I believe it will be a buyer's market. As much as car makers want to avoid incentives, they will be a necessity to move cars.

    Bottom line: A few auto brands will go out of business or merge in the next decade.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Very well put, Chris.

    A cogent argument indeed.

    It'll be interesting to watch it all play out.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Forgot to mention that gas prices are only going to go higher. We've had a very nice ride with gasoline in the US for decades, but expect $2 to $3+ per gallon forever. "Experts" say that global oil reserves may run out in 75 yrs.

    Okay, I'm depressed.

    Back to the A6...
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I received an invitation from my local Infiniti dealer to come down and join in the festivities in the unveiling of the M35/45.

    I presented my wife with the pamphlet on the M35 and informed her it competes with the A6. I proceeded to show her pictures and told her of the impressive performance numbers the car can produce. My wife asked the hp for the M35 and the hp for the new A6. I told her and she said “So? Who cares about 20 or so hp, I miss my old A6” (the old A6 was a 99.5 2.8).

    Even though the Infiniti M cars may out perform the A6 there are some, my wife, that would prefer the A6 despite a miniscule difference in performance at WOT. My wife has never “floored” a car and reprimands me whenever I “race” with her and the kids in the car; definition for race is passing anybody, irregardless of the posted speed limit.

    Since we’re now not in the market for either of these autos, next purchase will probably be some sort of family hauler, I still have my eyes (and heart) open for another Audi…if only the $’s were as competitive :(
  • liyliy Member Posts: 47
    Noted on a visit to the Mercedes Benz USA web page for the new 2006 E-350, a very cogent, lucid explanation, in video format, of the MB "4-matic" awd system. http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/E350W.jsp (Click on "4 Seasons, 4 Matic").

    I can find no similar explanation of quattro on the Audi USA site (I do note a "25 years of quattro" movie now available). Its just nowhere near as persuasive as the MB piece - more an ad blurb.

    I think,in the current marketplace, (with 4 new awd luxury sedans available just this year), some greater emphasis ought to have been placed on the inner workings and advanatages of quattro. Perhaps, also, some differentiation from similar systems - (if, in fact, there is a relevant differentiation). JMO.

    LIY
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    Has anyone had any luck finding a Verizon supported cell phone that will interface with the MMI in the 2005 Audi A6 4.2? I expect to take delivery in a few weeks and all indications are that finding such a cell phone is going to be difficult. Thanks for any help.
  • bargamon1bargamon1 Member Posts: 110
    I thought Audi replaced the key management in the marketing department for North America the first of the year?

    Audi is being arrogant as are most companies when they have the Mac-daddy of the market segment. The lease deals we became used to will only return if the market conditions prevail in a back log of inventory. Audi dealer profitablity is an issue, and perhaps they make more money selling less cars at bigger profits, and slow down the amount of cars shipped here. Or at least A6's!

    If so, then it becomes an exclusive market. Audi may see things as this is a $50,000 car we want to sell for $50,000, and its better than the $54,000 BMW. Now if your looking at the lease factor, then we have to pay for the sins of the past with the residual being what it is. Historically, BMW has a better resale rate. Today those 5 series are not the most attractive, and might not resale as those in the past. Likewise, Audi with no turbo's might have higher resale in the future (A6).

    Could Audi with a superior product be changing its tune? Could be. In the face of stiff AWD's everywhere, this is how they might be handling it. Just because they did things differently for 25 years does not mean they are "screwing the Pooch" now. Lets face it, flooding the market with wonderful cars at great prices has gotten them no where! They have made most dealers rebuild new show rooms, and they are not making money with discount pricing! So at this juncture, it may not be the time to lease a new A6. If Infiniti wants to play a volume game, then jump on that ship and grab the value.

    Mark, you are emotionally attached to Audi and you must feel very torn between leasing that wonderful new state of the art, top-of-the-class A6 for "too much" money or jumping ship based on apparent value.

    I think Audi should offer you a hush-hush deal before you go on 60minutes!

    Mitsubishi should be toast soon. They used to make a nice truck. They don't even do that anymore. Subaru has replaced them, and has done a very good job at it. Subaru in a lot of ways is like Audi used to be. And I will test drive either their legacy wagon, or the new 7 pass cross over in the next 18mos. At 43k I love my Allroad, but I have to decide with two kids going to college in the next few years do I want to keep moving upward, or stay sideways with my car. An A4 done up nice may do the trick, and I can keep a manual tranny!
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    Despite what people think about A6 sales, they are actually doing well. The February 05 sales are up 73.4% from this time last year at 1264 sales for the month. Not to shabby for such poor lease incentives...
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I still can't decide...Does anyone have exact figures on the 0-60s of these two? I know the m35 is faster, but does anyone know by how much? The Audi does 7.1sec to 60mph as far as I know. Drove both and the m35x seems noticeably faster. Still can't get an exact figure though. Thanks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I believe it [the Infiniti M35x] is 6.6 to 60mph. And, I believe TECHNICALLY, the Audi is 7.1 to 100kph. A nit? Perhaps.

    For the life of me, I can't figure out why you would let your outgoing SLine A6 2.7T with a 5spd tip, offer up 6.4 seconds and replace the car with one that comes in at 7.1 seconds and, generally speaking, costs a bit more, comparably equipped.

    Moreover, the $50K sport sedan class seems all about BEATING 7.0 seconds. Something about bragging rights.

    BTW, generally speaking, the relative slowness of the Audi in and of itself would not turn me off of the Audi.

    Indeed, the things that are turn offs are, in the scheme of things, fixable and I believe temporary.

    #1 Tip lag (and this is NOT just for cars equipped with Tiptronic transmissions, I suspect XXX-Lag is there with Geartronic (Volvo) and Steptronic and so on); this I am certain can be engineered away if enough customers were to make it an issue. The very fact that Tip lag has been around since 1997 (when the Tip first came to US bound Audis) and NOT been dealt with (except in the S and RS class Audis) must mean that those of us who disdain this "feature" are but one grain of sand on a very big beach.

    #2 Lease rates that don't augur well when the comparison with another famous German brand is so easy to make. This will be cured either by the other guys raising their prices or Audi dropping theirs -- the market will dictate the outcome. The early adopters will not be pleased, however if 3 or 4 months from now the A6 costs significantly less to "buy."

    I bought the first 1997 Audi A8 off the truck in November of 1996, and watched the following two model years bring forth both higher content and lower prices and "rub my nose in them" -- I felt Audi had told me "the loyal and faithful will pay a higher price and take it in feature and function (content) too." My then new A8 was $72,000+, when the 1998 and 1999's came out, their price dropped thousands of dollars while their standard equipment list grew impressively.

    Maybe what y'all have been saying is true, the early adopters pay and pay dearly for the right to be "the first one on the block" to have the latest and greatest. Trouble is, the faithful [and I qualify] seem to be disenfranchised by this practice (speaking for myself at least.)

    And finally. . .

    Having driven both the A6 3.2 and the M35x, I would say Audi has some serious competition, FWIW.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    A6 = Saturn LS300! That's pretty funny, I bet your co-workers at BMW thought it was HILARIOUS!

    Actually, in another somewhat amusing case of mistaken identity, my brother saw a pic of the m35 and said it looked like a corolla, looking straight at it.

    In both cases, I don't think anyone is gonna mistake either the audi for the saturn, or the m35 for the corolla in real life. Maybe in pictures.
  • bargamon1bargamon1 Member Posts: 110
    The new BMW 5 series looks "Korean".

    The back of a E class looks like a Camry.

    The A6 back does slap me with Saturn.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I don't know if I would say the 5 series looks "Korean" since i can't find a car that really looks like it at all. I think the outside is fine, it's the interior that is busted.

    I'll agree with you on the Camry/E class breaklights. I mistake one for the other all the time.

    The A6 might bear a slight resemblance to a Saturn. From a distance. In the rain.

    What do you think of the Infinity M?
  • bargamon1bargamon1 Member Posts: 110
    The 5 looks like a "Kia", the name slips me.

    The M is ok by me. The short rounded front kinda looks like the C5 A6 from the side. Interior is flashy. Being an ex-mercedes guy I thought Audis were a little tacky.

    The o-60 numbers are all going to come into Audi's corner. They for years were penalized by slower times due to the inclusion of quattro! The M's gearing looks like it might benefit a quick off the line number. 0-60 in audi always not true cuz of tip lag! HA!

    Looked at the GS from Lexus and they are taking a refined more audi approach. I have to see it in person. Seeing the Audi in person is what sold me on the fishmouth grill. It looks great.

    This is a crowded segment now more than ever and somone will blink and offer incentives, especially on leases. It just might not be Audi like it was in the past.

    Keeping it relevent, Infinity M vs the A6: all MSRP being the same, the audi wins hands down!
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    I suspect XXX-Lag is there with Geartronic (Volvo) and Steptronic and so on)
    Mark, I can tell you there is no lag in the Steptronic Gearbox in my '00 528i but then I never had it in my '98 A4 Avant 2.8 either.

    I will say that at roughly the same weight and HP
    the Bimmer accelerates notably better than the A4 2.8. That's not meant as a knock on Audi, just to point out that the lag issue is far from universal and further that the Steptronic is as good as an autobox gets (excepting the DSG which some consider an Auto even if there's no TC).

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    You really think the A6 3.2 wins "hands down" over the M35x? To me it's pretty much a dead heat.

    If Infiniti would budge on the MSRP bottom line (which they are not even considering right now) I would say the Infiniti wins hands down. As it is, though, the overpriced (imo) M35x vs. the underpowered A6 3.2 is making this a difficult decision that basically boils down to (for me at least):

    Audi=
    PRO - Nicer Exterior (IMO)
    PRO - Smoother, quieter ride
    PRO - Slight "Prestige" factor FWIW
    CON - Slower
    CON - Reliability issues
    CON - 2006 improvements on Quattro + speed forthcoming

    VS.

    Ininiti=
    PRO - Faster
    PRO - Nicer Interior, a little gaudy but still plush (IMO)
    PRO - Better reliability (historically)
    PRO - Better AWD
    CON - Exterior not as nice/refined (IMO)
    CON - Noisier ride, esp when accelerating, not sure if this holds true at prolonged high speeds
    CON - It's just a glorified Nissan. While that's just snobbish trendoid BS at the end of the day, it's still a consideration.

    What makes the A6 3.2 the "hands down" winner in your opinion?
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    Richcream,

    I think you can't go wrong with either car. However, IMO, the infiniti, while a nice interior, can't match the fit and finish of the Audi.

    The Audi is a classier looking car exteriorly as well.

    The Infiniti definitely has the engine power that the A6 doesn't, but again, not as smooth an acceleration...

    I favor the Audi, obviously, but as I said above, either is a great car.
  • bargamon1bargamon1 Member Posts: 110
    Faster? Might be from a dead stop, but if gearing is weighted for quick release, then you loose it somewhere else. Better AWD on the INfiniti? Why?

    Nicer interior on the interior of the M? Likely a subjective opinion, but the Audi is best in class by many measures. Reliable? Since I lease, and do so under the 50k miles on the total package, its not an issue. But my 03 allroad has been great with almost 30k on it.

    Its my opinion that if both had the same price tag on it, or lease I would not even test drive an M35. I share to a lessor degree with Mark the strong afinity for the brand and design. The brand is strong with me, and would even consider dropping to an A4 if that is where the value is. THe new A6 avent wagon I think looks fantastic! I never thought I would ever own a wagon, and I only got my Allroad because the 6sp was on the lot for 3 months unsold and they made me an offer I could not refuse. I was on my way to the mercedes dealer to pick my color, and came home with an Audi! Two years later, I am still very much enjoying this car!

    Question is, how much more would I be willing to pay to stay in them? Well, I spaced my lease so I would be in the fall of 06 before I get my next one. The world will be much diferent then. So Im not going to sweat it. I enjoy lurking and reading up on some auto's even if not in purchase mode. My dad worked for GM back in the day and the bug is just in me!

    Priced out, the Audi 3.2 and the M awd seem close in price giver or take. Given all things being the same, the Audi goes in my garage.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    "Reliable? Since I lease, and do so under the 50k miles on the total package, its not an issue." - bargamon1

    For me, the reliability within the warrantee period is largely an issue of (in)convenience. The timing of service visits when my service providers are 15 - 20 miles from where I work and the hours I need to be at work (long before service departments even open and often after they close) results in a logistic challenge for me. I often lack flexibility regarding work time. And there is also the value I place on my time. . .

    - Ray
    Preferring to minimize service visits during warrantee . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My 2003 allroad, other than the first 11 days I owned it has been almost maintenance and trouble free. If all cars from this point forward would be this low maintenance (I am at 45,000 miles, or soon will be), I would die a happy man.

    My wife's TT has been nearly flawless, except for the batteries in her KEY FOB which seem to have a life span measured in days or at most weeks. She is only at 37,000 miles, but the car has been so reliable it is easy to forget to take it in every 10,000 miles.

    Yea, I know the reputation and one or two good ones can't erase all the bad stuff that we have all read here on this one forum.

    But, I can only assume that the new A6, or A4, will be even more reliable than mine.

    Audi reliability is not an issue.

    I would, however, not have a car without a warranty -- and I don't care what kind of car it is. The only exception to the absolute is an "old clunker" -- if I bought a 1999 Bravada (to make something up) used and it had 100,000 miles on it, I would not worry about the warranty (assuming it could withstand a thorough inspection). Such a vehicle would be my "Bic pen" car -- use it up, throw it out.

    I just can't see myself in my Audi beyond 50,000 miles without "protection."

    The same concern, however, would be there with a new Japanese car beyond its warranty.

    Maybe I haven't lived with the rock solid never maintain Japanese car legend (no double meaning intended). Maybe if I had, I would think these German cars are FORD's (Fix Or Repair Daily). At this point, the German reliability is a non issue, but a warranty is.

    The Japanese 60,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty IS a big deal, as it is 20% longer than the Germans, currently. But, this is not, to me, an indictment of the German cars.
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    Bargamon brings up a good point about the A6 being fast. It is due to the low end peak torque of the A6. A lot of people forget that.

    Compare the Audi's 255 HP with peak torque of 243 at 3250 rpm with the RL's 300 HP with peak torque of 260 at 5000 RPM. The M35 AWD is 280 HP with torque of 270 at 4800, I don't say this to inflame any RL or M owners out there, as I actually like the cars, but just to use as comparison...

    I'll admit the A6 isn't fast in a 0-60 type of speed, but with the low end torque, it really sprints nicely. This makes driving all the more fun IMO. So when looking for a fast car, remember to also look at the torque and how many RPM's it takes to get that feel...
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    At the end of the day, I think that no matter which one I get I'll be yearning for the benefits of the other. If I get the Audi, I'll crave the speed and interior of the Infiniti (unless you have seen it in person, don't call me crazy for preferring the m35 interior to the A6's.) If I get the Infiniti, I'll long for the smooth and quiet ride, and overall refinement of the Audi. It's win/win lose/lose.
  • bargamonbargamon Member Posts: 302
    You comment goes without saying! I have never had a bad car mind you. They exist. My Allroad with its Bi-turbo ony has issue with its key fob battery also. Other than that, mine has not had a single issue!

    I assume the best and hope my string continues.

    I would not be happy to have a chronic problematic lemon of any make!

    I would not consider any make if the service was very far away. Or they would not pick it up!
  • liyliy Member Posts: 47
    Really don't see how you can compare the two interiors - Audi v. Infiniti M, and prefer the M.

    First off, the embroidered Infinit logo on the seat is a major turnoff - and imho, extremely tacky (don't like the way Infiniti lights up on the footwell either).

    The steering wheel and dash on the M are a confusing amalgam of buttons, switches and levers. To me the wood veneer on the M looks and feels metallic.

    Contrast the Audi - simple, yet functional steering wheel, a minimum of switches on the dash, complemented by a multi-media interface that really works - with a very slight learning curve. Wood is framed in aluminum, beautiful grains. The seats do not carry an Audi logo - and no Audi logo lights up anywhere else in the car.

    I prefer the Audi.

    LIY
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Understated elegance, sadly, often loses to flash.

    Many of us would love to combine the best elements of several vehicles, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. It's well beyond the option package conundrum. This engine, that interior, the other transmission, the best switch feel, custom GPS, and on and on, not just within a given manufacturer, but between them.

    Don't hold your breath.

    OTOH, the first car company that figures out how to do this will absolutely blow everyone else away. Many choices. Pick what you like. It'll be delivered in six weeks (or days, likely). Solid reliability & good service are givens. Which part of the world do we think will do this first? Europe? America? Asia? It sounds like a "duh" question to me, but I may be missing something.

    For now, we can have these discussions.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I'll agree that I, too, could lose the embroidered seat logos and be better off for it. Definitely a little tacky.

    As far as aesthetic preferences for the interiors(mine for the M, yours for the A6); "subjective" is the word.

    I will disagree that the wood feels or looks plastic. It just looks different from what we've become accustomed to.

    As far as "confusing" buttons; just because Audi has managed to consolidate most of them into a knob doesn't, in my opinion, make it any more functional, or make the layout of the M unappealing...not to mention that the A6 still presents its own array (albeit a smaller one than that of the M) of unlabeled buttons...they surround the "knob".

    Don't get me wrong, I really like both cars and will almost definitely be purchasing one or the other (unless, of course, a third, as yet unseen contender pops up, though I can't imagine who that might be).

    It just so happened that the interior styling of the M really impressed me. Maybe it's my 23yr old affinity for something with a little more attitude, as I'm sure you would agree that the sweeping, cascading dash and console are overstated design touches. Would I be correct in guessing that you have a few more years under your belt than me (if you don't mind me asking of course ;-) ?
  • liyliy Member Posts: 47
    Oh dear - more than a few, I'm afraid! ;-{

    Certain that does explain quite a bit.

    LIY
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Yes it does, but you can't be too too old. Otherwise you'd be in the Lincoln Towncar forum, or you'd be ranting and raving about Lexus, like other unnamed forum members.

    In all seriousness though, well as serious as you can get about buying a car; I am really torn between these two (A6 3.2 and the M35x). It's to the point where the issue is playing itself out in my dreams at night!

    Aside from the 'refinement, quiet + class (A6) VS attitude, speed + solid engineering (M35x)' aspects: Audi is re-engineering quattro for 2006, making the A6 faster and giving it more power in the rear (an area where the M currently has the edge with it's "intelligent awd".) I know that if I get the Audi now, in 12 months I'll be kicking myself when the faster, more agile models hit the streets.

    Even without considering forthcoming upgrades - like I've said numerous times before in these forums - if I get one, I'll be wishing I'd gotten the other.

    It's ironic too, that where I live, within 2 miles of my home actually, there is an infiniti dealership and an audi dealership no more than 200 feet apart. I've gone to both to drive both cars (even parked the audi right up next to the M on infiniti's lot!), and I guess I'll continue to do so until I pick up on every detail, sound, sight, and feel, of each of these cars to the point that I am finally compelled to choose one over the other.
  • liyliy Member Posts: 47
    Gotta tell you honestly, if I was 23, I'd buy the Infiniti (could never ever have afforded such an expenisve automobile at that age). It really does strike me as an automobile for a "younger" individual.

    Best of luck in your pick.

    LIY
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Yeah, but I don't feel 23. I work hard for the $$$ and believe me, I wish I made more. Not only that but i'm gonna wish i were older when i get that insurance quote...OUCH!

    Thanks, I'll be sure to post whichever one I get.
  • bargamonbargamon Member Posts: 302
    Sorry to be a bud-in-ski, but make sure you own your own home and are saving money before putitng into a 50k auto! If so,then disregard. If not, please don't be offended! Young guys and cars are an american thing! We are what we drive! I am in my early 40's and still balk at some prices of cars, or more importantly what to spend. Cars can be status symbols! Expensive nice toys no doubt! We all DESERVE nice rides, but we also deserve peace of mind that having a positive net worth can bring. I am an investment consutant for a large firm for over 20 years and have seen how wonderful investing can be if you start early. At some point, you can have your cake and eat it too!

    I I were 23, I would be all over the BMW 3, Audi a4, infinity G35 sedan or coupe. A6 is an old mans car!

    Town car? Folk like that are the wealthiest int he country, but them used for cash, house paid off, and have the high net worth. Thats a simple demographic, but its what it is!
  • liyliy Member Posts: 47
    "A6 is an old mans car!" Gee, I'm just feeling worse and worse. Think I'm going to have to move to another forum. Perhaps, one that deals with the best assisted living, or something like that! Wow, imagine the comparos!!

    LIY
  • jhutchinsjhutchins Member Posts: 15
    I went through the same process, and was torn between the M35x and the A6 (after having also driven the RL). Like you, I was very impressed with the look and feel of the interior of the Infiniti (purely subjective, of course), although in retrospect, I believe the ergonomics of the A6 is superior. I also was impressed with the handling and mid-range acceleration of the M. In the end, it was primarily the exterior looks of the cars that led me to purchase the A6, and also some degree of brand loyalty, since I am upgrading from an A4 that I have driven for years. (Also, I could get the A6 well below MSRP, but not the M). I thought the exterior of the A6, controversial as it may be, was really sharp, and much more distinctive than the Infiniti's exterior, which seemed too bland.

    By the way, in the years that I have had the A4, it was regularly improved in following model years - that is the nature of the beast. It never prevented me from enjoying the car I had. I would get whichever car makes you happier now, and not worry too much about the extent to which next years models will be even better. You can't go wrong with either of these two cars.

    I also agree the average demographic for the a6 (and any $50K car) is way, way above 23. I am well into my thirties, and if I didn't have to deal with baby seats, I would be shopping for an S4, not an A6.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Audi is re-engineering quattro for 2006, making the A6 faster and giving it more power in the rear (an area where the M currently has the edge with it's "intelligent awd".) I know that if I get the Audi now, in 12 months I'll be kicking myself when the faster, more agile models hit the streets.

    Has this been confirmed? I know they've done just that for the new RS4, but for the A6 just one year after intro? Anywhere to read about this? I haven't seen anything about, other than about the new RS4 on Germancarfans.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "OTOH, the first car company that figures out how to do this will absolutely blow everyone else away. Many choices. Pick what you like. It'll be delivered in six weeks (or days, likely). Solid reliability & good service are givens. Which part of the world do we think will do this first? Europe? America? Asia? It sounds like a "duh" question to me, but I may be missing something."

    No you didn't miss a thing. That was deep. I don't think there will ever be one car to please all or do everything perfectly. Arguably back when it was a Mercedes, then as "sport" become more popular a BMW, but they have both dropped a ball or two, reliability and styling/ergonomics respectively.

    What’s interesting about the two main cars being discussed here, the M35 and of course the A6, both have very unattractive upper center consoles. Car and Driver called the M's an "ATM" dashboard, they hit the nail right on the head there imo. Sitting in the M those nav buttons are constantly in your peripheral vision, too much so. The A6 has a beautiful overall interior design, understated and elegant, but that portion of the dash where the center vents and climate controls are looks like something out of an old GM car. From what I've seen of both the M and A6 these are the only things I don't like about either of them. Well the M's rear lights are little bit of an acquired taste, but not a big deal.

    I think these "discussions" as you put it will go on forever I think.

    M
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    You are absolutely right my friend, I was fed some bad info...apologies to all.

    The re-tooled quattro will only be on the RS4 for 2006...no such plans for the '06 A6. Sorry again.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    jhutchins: Speaking of the S4, WHAT A MACHINE!

    Went to both Audi and Infiniti today...again. Wanted to compare the M35x to the A6 3.2, this time testing the Audi first. I wanted to check out the sport seats at Audi, but the only A6 with sport seats (a must-have imo) was the 4.2, so I said why not. Sport seats were great, V8 was better, whetted my appetite for speed so....

    ...I ask the salesman about the S4 and he tells me that the only one he's got is stick. I told him that I'm definitely not buying another stick (NY traffic will KILL your enthusiasm for it) but he asks me if I want to drive it anyway. How could I say no?

    The S4 is FAAASSTT and I knew just what route to take. 5th gear is 100% illegal and exhilarating, 6th is just plain dangerous!

    Needless to say, the dark horse contender for my next purchase has arrived. Though I won't be considering the clutch...I'll have to try out the paddles...they've got the S4s with the new bodies in port. Have to go back in 2 weeks. Can't wait.

    On a side note: also went over to Infiniti (literally next door to Audi) to check out the M35x (though, now that my sense of speed was completely warped, I don't know if that was a good idea!) They had it with black/rosewood interior. Still nice, but didn't strike me like it did the first time I checked it out, so I'm STILL undecided on A6 vs M35x.

    jhutchins: Would you say that the footspace on the A6 is a bit cramped on the passenger side? Not the legroom but the footspace? Also: what is your biggest complaint/gripe/pet peeve about your A6? Any feedback, positive/negative/whatever is greatly appreciated. Top 3 pros and cons or something. THANKS!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "You are absolutely right my friend, I was fed some bad info...apologies to all.

    No biggie, I just wanted to read more about it since the info on the RS4 has been scarce so far. I too have read about them changing Quattro for all Audis I just didn't know when. I suspect it will be sooner than later with all the awd competition out there now.

    I too spent some time looking at the newest Audis today, though dealerships here are closed on Sunday, but you wouldn't know it by all the people milling around. I was so taken by the new A6 in White. The new nose does look good on the A4 too. The dealer here has a lot of 2004 A6s left though, all of them red-tagged to move now.

    M
  • jhutchinsjhutchins Member Posts: 15
    Sorry, richcream, the 3.2 I bought (night blue w/ amaretto interior, fully loaded) won't be in until the second week of April. So, I can't give you the first-hand real-life ownership impressions for about a month.

    The M35x I drove was also the black/rosewood interior, which I liked the best of the combinations I saw. Like I mentioned earlier, I think the interior of the M makes a great first impression, but that after living with it for a while, the novelty would wear off and some of the poor ergonomics would start to irritate. The Audi, on the other hand, which is not as sharp-looking in the interior, still has really high quality materials, and seems laid out better. In other words, I expect that my appreciation for the interior of the A6 will increase over time through use.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    merc1:
    UPDATE: (Ward's Auto) -
    "Marc Trahan, Audi of America Inc. director-product management and quality, tells Ward’s the ’05 S4, a 340-hp, 4.2L V-8 equipped variant of the A4 that is a rung lower than the 420-hp RS4, will be the only U.S.-specification Audi to boast the new-generation quattro system until mid-2006, when all ’07 quattro-equipped Audis will be fitted with the new rear-biased architecture."

    So I guess '07 is the model year that ALL quattro's will have the new 60/40 rear/front distribution. Guess that means the '07 A6's with the 60/40 split will be available in a year eh? Hope that helps.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yep, thanks. I hadn't checked Wards. Should be interesting to see what the magazines think about this switch.

    M
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I went to both Audi and Infiniti last night (my second homes) to check out what the cars look like at night, inside and out. I had the salesmen tool 'em both around their lots just to get a look at what the lighting and silhouettes looked like.

    Impressions:
    Infiniti Exterior at night: "WOW"
    Infiniti Interior at night: "owww"

    The Infiniti looks GREAT on the outside. I was relieved to find that it makes a great impression, very aggressive, menacing headlights, and looks absolutely nothing like it's Nissan brethren (Maxima and Altima).

    On the inside however, I was a little dismayed to find that the by-day white console buttons and Infiniti trademark clock actually glow yellow/orange when the lights come on. These, coupled with the overly bright, white-blue nav display can only be described as garish. (Infiniti found a way to incorporate the yellow from the sport models into the interior of the toned down non-sports...but only at night!)

    Audi Interior at night: "WOW"
    Audi Exterior at night: "eh"

    The A6's interior looks good during the day, but is outstanding at night. There is no contest here vs the M35. The soft blue and white backgrounds in the driver's dash instruments are sharply accented by an aggressive but controlled iridescent red outlines. The red, which can only be described as 'perfect', accents all of the center consol controls. The nav screen, with black background and yellow and white lettering, blends in to the rest of the presentation and never distracts. Compared to the blinding nav screen in the M35, it is a pleasure to look at.
    The soft purple-white lights in all four footwells can be controlled through the MMI system and only add to an interior that can only be described as 5-Star. Pardon the corny punnery, but the difference between the A6 interior in daylight vs. the cabin at night, is, well....night and day. As is the difference between the M35 interior day vs. night, only the Infiniti cabin looks much better in daylight.

    The exterior of the A6 is nice, but nowhere near as defined as that of the M35. It is, much like the interior during the day, understated and classy, taking little chances. It is, eh.

    Where has all of this tire kicking, light switching, test driving, seat adjusting, and review reading brought me? Nowhere. I am just as torn between the two, if not moreso, now that I have been able to check out the very worst and best that each has to offer. Argh.
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