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Comments
M
I have a lot of pictures of the car. If you're interested in seeing any of them, just let me know.
A quart of oil is only between $1 and $5. You are going to spend an extra $18-$90 a year putting oil in. Not a big imposition.
After being warned that 2.7Ts do use oil when I purchased it, mine used almost a quart in the first 5,000 miles and none since. I'm happy.
1. I can really get out the Acquisition Fee? What rationale can I use avoid paying this with dealer. My goal is to get into this car with as little down as possible.
2. What are dispostion fees?
3. What are examples of "other fees" you mention that the dealer may try to include in the Cap Cost?
Thanks for your help.
Jim
But your options for recompense in courts mostly hinge on how much financial damage it does you. As I mentioned, your damages are less than $100 a year (actually far less than $50), so you won't get anywhere.
I'm sorry, but you're stuck. I wish you were more lucky.
To nszabo; turbo engines should use no more oil than any non-turbo engines, i.e., virtually none.
Anyway, the car I think I want now after much looking and agonizing is the Audi A6 2.8 Quattro. List price is $39,100 with the equipment I want. He'll sell to me for $37,100 which seems to be an OK price, I guess. Still negotiating on my trade. May sell it myself if I don't get a good offer from the dealer. It's a mint, one owner, M-B which should sell fairly quickly I would think.
Several questions come to mind:
What is the resale going to be on the Audi after 4 years? Anything like the resale on a M-B? There's not much point in saving money by buying a less expensive car only to lose the money when it's time to get rid of it. It's not the dollars I'm concerned about but the % of return I'll get later. I have the cash to buy what I want. It's just that I really like the Audi and it's over $10,000 less than the Benz. But if the Benz will give me back a much greater amount of my money later, why should I buy the less expensive Audi only to lose more money later?
Is the Audi a car I could possibly keep (and rely on) for 10 or 12 years? I've had 12 mostly trouble free years from my Benz. Can I expect that from an Audi? I'm not a Benz snob. I've got a Jeep Cherokee that's 14 years old and has 137,000 miles on it. It, too, has been basically trouble free. I wouldn't hesitate to get another Jeep. I'm just wondering if Audi quality is near that of BMW and M-B?
I think I'll go for the Cashmere Gray exterior with the Mélange leather interior. Just need the luxury package (sunroof & leather), Quattro, cold weather package, and rear airbags. If it came with ESP I would take it, I think. What do you think of the ESP? Is it worth it?
Sorry to be asking so much. Hope you get a few minutes to get back to me and let me know what your opinions are. Really appreciate your time and help.
Brian Hyde
Not to say our Audi's should behave like Fords, but since Audi's have a long powertrain warranty and are maintenance free, I think it is in AoA best interest to treat the problem(if it is one) early.
thanks.
rick g.
If you have performance tires (as come with the sport package), then you will skate on snow, so you definitely need some winter tires.
Burning a quart every 1,000 miles won't clog your cats fast enough. It will clog them eventually, but you are talking about 1 quart of oil in 200 quarts of gas. Thats 1/2% oil. My Saturn burned oil at about that rate, and it took me over 5 years to wreck a cat. And it only had a single cat. Your A6 has 2 (or 4), so the damage is cut down somewhat.
So yes, burning oil will clog your cats. But Audi knows you won't clog them fast enough, so they'll wait you out, instead of taking action.
I'm not excusing it, just warning you.
1.Performance -- not a superstar in any category; but Audis are "synergistic" -- the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. In fact, with the 2.7T -- the car is a superstar in several respects; and a 2.7T with Sport Suspension is great in many areas and; see below --
2.Value -- you get more car for the money than the likely competition -- even the Japanese vehicles; which just don't have that "cut from a block of steel" feel that the German cars have.
3.Safety -- frankly the combination of the passive safety devices; electronic safety devices; body rigidity; and, quattro -- make the Audi A6 quattro one of the safest cars on the market. Advice -- get Xenon Headlights and ESP. They are not expensive options (even at full list) and they will make the car that much safer (and in some respects perform better).
4.Resale value -- will be good, not great. Even now, the Audi brand, here in the US (especially) is NOT the resale champ. But, it is not terrible -- there is increasing evidence that the resale value is starting to go north of average for the class. There is evidence that this will continue -- but nothing is guaranteed.
Your comment/question about keeping the car over 10 years makes me wonder "why?" With no disrespect intended -- and having read the book, "The Millionaire Next Door." I cannot imagine keeping any car (other than a "classic" or exotic) longer than 4 years. Practically speaking, I cannot really justify keeping the car more than 3 years, and here is why.
A car is very much like a computer -- constantly improving in capability, capacity, speed, features, functions -- and benefits. Generally, the Computer Industry has been able to bring out new and "better" models every few months and typically give you "more more more" for the same or sometimes less money.
Generally -- broadly -- cars constantly improve in most, if not all, the same ways that Computers do -- and often for "the same money" (in inflation adjusted terms) provide more car with each new generation or model year.
As I have practically reached age 50, I believe there is an argument that would state:
The new features and functions of the [XXXX year Audi] justify replacing my "old" Audi on the basis of safety alone.
Moreover, juxtaposed with safety, are (generally) greater efficiency (e.g., mileage), lower pollution, higher relability (longer mean time between unplanned "unavailability" episodes), greater performance and improved comfort and convenience features.
Getting a car more frequently can both save your life (potentially) and increase your enjoyment of driving. The opportunity cost of a new car every 3 years IS WORTH this when contrasted with the savings (the frugality issue) that are possible by keeping the car 10 - 12 years. After all you can't spend it if you're dead -- and why not go first class if that is a by product of keeping a car for 3 versus 12 years?
If you purchased an Audi in 1985 (and then the 1986 Audi 5000 quattro had ABS) and kept it 12 years, you were potentially taking an unnecessary risk. You could have upgraded in 1988 and saved your life (potentially). At this 3 year time frame your "depreciation loss" would not have been overwhelming -- at least in my judgment -- which is predicated on the "safety" features (e.g. ABS).
Finally -
All this reminds me of another "choice" we either voluntarily make or in some cases are forced to make: Insurance. We generally buy it "just in case" something goes wrong -- not because we expect it to.
Keeping your automotive technology current is like keeping your Computer current, your medication current, your insurance current, your use of many products current and so on.
So, yes the Audi will undoubtably "last" 10+ years and after that period of time will be just about financially spent -- you will have "got your money's worth." Yet, at least consider the points above and make certain you can afford to keep a car that long.
Just a thought.
ABS -- don't even consider a car without it.
Passive safety systems -- ditto.
Active safety systems -- again, ditto.
ESP -- now that ALL Audis can be had with this and it has a list price of about $500.00 -- and (to compare) the CD changer is $650 -- hmmmm not even a consideration; ESP will change and possibly save your life. Try driving on ice (once with and once without ESP). The difference is not trivial.
Good luck.
Of course, EDL uses the brakes without your input also, and you can't turn that off. So go figure.
BH
My first introduction, personally behind the wheel of a car with ESP was January 2000 in Seefeld Austria -- the car was a 2000 Audi A4 2.8 quattro sport. These cars are used by Audi in their course that is given totally on ice -- the course is for safety and performance -- the emphasis is on safety.
The reason the course is on ice is that it is possible to duplicate a wide variety of "emergency" situations at speeds that rarely exceed 50kmph. And, new brakes and tires are NOT needed on a daily basis, so I suspect there is a bit of practicality to having the course on ice, too.
But, back to the ESP for a moment. Broadly speaking, imagine if your car had four separate brake pedals, each with ABS; and, although not in the same literal sense, imagine that your car (quattro) had four accelerator pedals.
Now imagine that your brain, inner ear and other sensory inputs to your body could instantaneously evaluate the speed of each wheel, the direction of the "intent" (i.e., the angle of the steering wheel versus the actual response of the car) of the driver in a turning situation and a host of other inputs having to do with slippage, braking, acceleration, understeer, etc. Then imagine that you could press the correct combination of pedals to "get yourself out of trouble."
Using such simple concepts as "pivot, pitch and yaw" -- it is pretty easy to imagine that if you could apply the brake to perhaps one wheel or two wheels diagonally (for example)independently, cut the power -- even though you "thought" you wanted to accelerate and correct a "bad situation" instantly you would be an incredible driver.
Guess what? -- ESP can "figure out" which brake to apply -- even if you are not pressing the brake pedal -- to get you out of an understeer problem, for example. ESP could prevent your car from oversteering or understeering (under certain circumstances); ESP can reduce the problems associated with such situations even when the situation is "unpreventable."
We were instructed, while on ice, to take eight laps through a series of orange cones that had been laid out as if there was an "S" curve that we had to negotiate. We were instructed to accelerate and get into second gear as quickly as possible and then negotiate the curve without hitting any of the cones.
The first four times ESP was on then the next four times ESP was turned off. What a difference!
Now, it is true that the professional drivers could generally equal or beat their lap times with ESP off -- but not every time. And it is equally true that the rest of us who were not professional race drivers could generally beat [better] our lap times with the ESP turned on.
These were quattros with manual transmissions, 193 HP V6's and four studded sport snow tires on a sheet of ice quadruple the size of a football field. Speeds -- for the non-pros rarely exceeded 50kmph and for the pros they could sometimes get up to 80kmph.
The impact of ESP was so profound (for those of us who drive on open (that is, not closed race tracks) highways) that my wife immediately ordered a 2001 TT to replace her then 3 month old 2000 TT. And, due to the fact that the dealer just "forgave" her lease after six or seven months (it took about 4 months for the 2001 to arrive) -- we did not even face a depreciation issue.
All this was meant to encourage anyone who is looking for a new vehicle -- from any mfg. -- to consider ESP and to strongly consider shifting to a make that offers ESP if your current brand does not offer this feature.
And, this too was meant to acknowledge that my previous example does somewhat contradict the Audi manual. Please do not think that ESP is anything less than a technology that is as impressive or perhaps more impressive than ABS (when it was "new).
Thanks for allowing me to clarify. And, if you ever want to spend three fabulous days learning how to become a better, safer driver, I cannot praise the Audi driving school too highly. It is an exceptional and relatively inexpensive experience (2000DM). There is a minimum of a one year waiting list, last time I checked. Be guided accordingly.
Keep up the dialog.
1. The Acqiusition Fee - This is their fee for "acquiring" or buying the car in the first place. It seemss like this is what the dealer's profit is for, yes? YES - they can drop it if you insist. Some dealers don't even have this gouge added to their contracts. Just be ready to walk out over this.
2. Disposition Fee - This is to pay them to "dispose" of the car when the lease was up. Gee, I thought that's what resale profit was for. You can see how ridiculous these arbitrary fees are. IF they made NO profit on the sale of the cars, this would be acceptable, but otherwise??? Again- be firm - and DO NOT pay it! Total ripoff!
3. Other Fees - Just keep you eyes open - other have mentioned even "Messenger Fees"!! How absured.
Just be aware that every dollar that you do not pay out the door gets rolled into the Cap Cost, and you pay interest on that. So - If they hit you with a $600 fee that you pay up front, that is $600 less that you have to reduce the Cap Cost, or use for something else. Just be careful and take your time. Better to write down all the figures, take them home and study them.
Good Luck!
After having been through Audi driving school 3 times -- twice for me and once for my wife, we have learned a few things that may help you.
As they say -- the "general spirit" of the following is accurate -- but, my advice to you is to test these techniques at a place where there's no one else around (an empty parking lot, for example -- that is covered with snow or slush).
Ok folks here is the first Big One (snow storm) of the Winter of 2000 - 2001 (at least in Cincinnati).
Most of you reading this have cars that have ABS (Anti-lock Braking Systems).
Most of you reading this have PROBABLY had the ABS engage at one time or another during your driving history.
Most of you -- and no offense intended to anyone -- according to statistics, do not know how to use ABS properly.
Most people when they apply their brakes on a slick surface notice the "chattering" or pulsing sensation they feel through the brake pedal -- this sort of a "joy buzzer" feeling is generally a surprise and sometimes, depending on the thickness of your shoes, may even give a bit of a tickle sensation. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
The next thing most people do when this pulsing starts is either:
1. Reduce pressure on the brake pedal in an attempt to get the pulsing to stop; or,
2. Maintain pressure on the brake thinking that the technology is in control and will help them stop -- in other words they more or less ignore the brake and let the technology "do its thing."
Both of these "typical" responses are wrong, #1 is the most wrong, however.
Generally, the action you should take when the ABS pulsing sensation begins is to significantly INCREASE the pressure you are applying on the brake pedal. This is true for both automatic transmission and manual shift transmission.
Until the car is going very slowly, if the car is a stick shift, you should NOT depress the clutch until "impending wheel lockup" which will happen even with ABS at speeds less than 10 - 15 mph (generally less than 10 mph is when you should depress the clutch to prevent the engine from stalling).
Doing #1 or #2 above will INCREASE the stopping distance -- which is probably not what you had intended.
Increasing the brake pressure -- by imagining (and trying to accomplish) your right leg pressing at 80 - 100 pounds pressure -- will DECREASE your stopping distance and the car will still be able to be steered.
Now, of course if you ARE going too fast for the car to actually be turned, you will have a condition called UNDERSTEER. And this too is the tricky one -- if, for example, you are trying to make a left turn, and the ABS "kicks in" and you keep pressing harder and harder on the brake and simultaneously turn the steering wheel to the left and the car continues to go "straight" -- you are UNDERSTEERING.
Most people will turn the wheel even further to the left hoping to make the car go in the direction they intended. Well, I am here to tell you that if you are in such a situation and you have turned the wheel [all the way, e.g.] to the left and the car is going "mostly straight" heading toward a telephone pole instead of turning left at 90 degrees -- you CAN (probably) make the car complete the left turn by turning the wheel about a half to a full a turn TO THE RIGHT!
It doesn't "feel" natural -- but I swear, it works!
The worst that will happen is that you will hit the pole anyway, and it is more likely that the car will actually turn left -- even though you just turned the wheel to the right.
Give it a try (in that empty parking lot). It could prevent an accident!
Maintain assured clear distance -- and be careful out there.
Great posts! Between the two I noticed you overlooked some critical information related to stability control systems (ESP, DSC, DSTC, etc. etc.). You are probably aware of this but I want to point it out as often as I see an opportunity - accident avoidance maneuvers MUST be conducted contrary to our training using these systems. In cars without stability control systems, we have all been taught to steer in the same direction as the sliding rear-end of the car. With stability control systems THIS WILL CAUSE AN ACCIDENT. The proper response with a stability control system active is to keep the steering wheel pointed where you want the car to go. This is counterintuitive and I highly encourage all drivers with these systems to go out and practice this a couple of times in a snow or ice covered EMPTY parking lot to train your body to not automatically try to correct a slide. It can be particularly tricky for some cars where the driver has the choice of whether they want to turn off the stability control system (I don't know if it is driver selectable in the Audis but I know it is in our Volvos). In these cases, the driver must be acutely aware of whether or not their system is active at any point while they are driving otherwise they could get into real trouble real quick by either steering or not steering to correct a slide.
Thanks.
-rdo
rdollie@home.com
bryhyde - Regarding Audi's strange options packaging on the A6, I have been in a similar situation. I've had at least 2 dealers tell me I could not get the Premium Package, Leather and Sunroof/Homelink unless I special ordered. Thanks Mike's advice in this forum, I've made additional calls and think I've found a 2.8 equipped as refrenced above. My advice is to call other dealers. I've been amazed by the inaccurate information various dealers have quoted me during this process. Good Luck.
Even in track racing where drivers are very familiar with their cars and use full-force braking all the time, most teams now run with ABS in races which allow it. Even when the rules require a weight or HP penalty.
You probably should let the ABS do the work.
markcincinnati, why shouldn't I take the engine power off? I don't do it anyway (in my auto), but how would it hurt? In a stick I almost always brake with the clutch in.
Also note that Audi's ABS system is less loud, disruptive, and makes the pedal bounce less than most other systems.
- Premium Package (multi-function steering wheel, memory front seats & outside mirrors, auto-dimming inside & outside mirrors, and xenon headlights)
- Guidance Package (navigation system & ParkTronic)
- CD Changer (no problem; can still be dealer-installed)
- Audi factory phone (same as above)
No one at Audi has been able to give me a reasonable explanation for this. It's really stupid, since there's no overlap of components between the Celebration Luxury Package and the pre-empted items. What makes it even more stupid is that they'll let you order any/all of the disallowed items as long as you don't say, "...and I'd also like to spend an additional $1975 for the Celebration Luxury Package." Spend that $$$, and they won't sell you any of the other items listed. Stupid, very stupid.
There IS, however, a very easy way to get a 2.8 equipped just the way you want it; the only drawback is that you don't reap the high value of the Celebration Luxury Package's low pricing. Here's what to do:
- If you want leather, order it as the $1550 stand-alone option. It's not shown in the brochure as an "option package" because it's not a "package"; it's a stand-alone option available on the 2.8 only.
- If you want the moonroof, order the $1200 "Sunroof Package" (which also includes HomeLink).
- Order any, all, or none of the other available options, including the "Premium Package", "Guidance Package", CD changer, or phone. (Note that the "Cold Weather Package" can be ordered on any A6 2.8, regardless of the absence or presence of other options.)
Although the dealers tend to stock A6 2.8s equipped with the Celebration Luxury Package (and hence without the Premium Package or other ineligible options), I'm seeing more and more in dealer stock (here in northern CA) with stand-alone leather, Sunroof Package, and Premium Package. My hunch is that the latter versions weren't available during initial production, but they definitely are available now.
I'll throw in just one final thought. I think you're wise to hold your ground on getting a car with the Premium Package. While the multi-function wheel and memory seats are nice, the auto-dimming mirrors and xenon headlights are fabulous;in my opinion, they fully justify their price of admission.
Good luck in your quest. Let me know if I can be of further help.
- Mike
Thanks for your help.
Mike, thank you for your pictures and all your valuable suggestions throughout the post. I have decided to go for Melange/Melange, hoping it will be a bit more "heat resistance" during the summer. The Vanilla/Royal Blue is not as striking as I thought it would be. It seems to be a better fit fot A4. Burgundry/Black Interior would be my next choice.
almost always brake with the clutch in." I must be very careful in my explanation and response to you (and others) regarding this issue. First, I
agree with you -- but I must add a bit of qualification to that agreement. Our Audi driving instructors called the technique the "Bruce Lee." They said
you should hit the brake pedal with maximum force and a moment later (ranging from a split second to a second or more) depress the clutch
pedal. The wheel speeds could get too low if you "linger longer" with the clutch engaged and this may stall the engine. The reason for the
one-two kick on the pedals is to achieve a little extra help in braking from the engine. In practice, we all probably do this motion "instinctively" --
in that we press the brake pedal first and the clutch second, even if it is only a momentary time lapse between the two actions. I probably
inadvertently (and perhaps incorrectly) wrote my "suggested method" -- slamming on both the brake and clutch "simultaneously" thereby
reducing the chances of stalling the engine IS NOT wrong -- we are (I am) splitting hairs to make the point. Anyway, I do agree with all the posts
that suggest "trying this [behavior/technique]" in an empty parking lot. Thanks for pointing this out.
Snow tires: The P6000s are warm-weather performance tires. They really don't perform their best in cold weather, let alone snow. Definitely get snow tires if you'll drive in snow at all. As for the quattro thing, four times zero is still zero. Oh, and shen you're getting snow tires, you should probably get a narrower, higher-profile tire mounted on a plain steel rim. There's no point in messing up your nice new alloy wheels with salt and chemicals, and narrow tires will give more traction on ice or snow.
Sounds like you made a pretty good deal. I am also looking to close a deal real soon in the Bay Area. Could you provide some feedback on dealers? Which one did you buy from? and did you talk with others? I stopped by Carlson and talked briefly with a salesman -- his opening salvo was "we'll talk, but we don't discount these very much"
Thanks
Rp
Snow tires would help with lateral sliding when cornering, and probably with stopping faster. I'd recommend trying the car and seeing what you think.
docimmer
Question: Should I purchase through the dealer in order to get the Audi Assured Warranty? The dealer will not mark-up the trade-in price, but will charge $1,000 for the warranty.
The car has 34,000 miles on it and went into service in September 1998. Therefore I would have 6-9 months of factory coverage (if that warranty can be transferred.)
I have just taken delivery of my 4.2 with sports and premium package. This car is really a luxury automobile, not a sports sedan as its exterior suggest. Maybe it is because I am now driving the A6 in a very timid way. Should I wait till say 3000 miles before I drive it aggressively? I cruise mildly on highway; however, I love to shoot the gear down to second entering a curve and come out flying as high as the car allows me.
I still have not learned all the bells & whistles yet, like the home link. My family knows where to find me during the long weekend.
BTW, the fuel gauge works well, there is no distortion on the windshield, no swirl mark etc etc...
I have kept my P6000 tires. I shall see how it fares during these last few days of year 2000.
Last but not least: I am now a proud owner of an A6.
2.7T has better performance and regardless of what the diehards claim, the two models are virtually identical in looks. 4.2 offers a few more std features....but for a lot more money. And the 2.7T get better mileage.
Take a long test drive of three vehicles -- 2.7T with automatic, then the 6 speed manual 2.7T; then take a test drive of a 4.2 (only comes with 5spd automatic). Hopefully, each of the cars you test has the "sport package" -- and bettter yet hopefully the 2.7T's have the 17" wheel option as part of their sport packages. I have driven (and now own) A6's both with and without the sport package -- the difference is ride quality is fairly subtle, the difference in handling is not subtle.
The A6 4.2 is best described -- to compare and/or contrast it with the 2.7T -- as more refined, better balanced (with sport package) -- it has more "poise." The typical Audi solid-steel feel is even more so on the 4.2 (than the 2.7T). They do perform similarly, but make no mistake -- according to the fine print, the 2.7T is a hair quicker than the 4.2. The 4.2 makes much "sweeter sounds" when pressed, but this in no way is meant to demean the 2.7T.
The 4.2 appears (and is) more agressive -- flared fenders, slightly longer, body effects etc. Again some of these differences are subtle -- but they are far from hidden. Creature comforts, depending on your tastes -- more in the 4.2.
Another difference I noticed is a feeling that can be best described as muscular -- the 4.2 has more strength. This is manifested in several ways: over a bump, a railroad crossing, a washboard road, etc. The 2.7T is somehow less strong, less sturdy feeling when compared back to back with the 2.7T.
In their own way, each one is a bargain. Each one will make you smile. Each one provides many safety features and creature comforts. Apparently there is more "dealing" room on a 4.2 so the monthly lease payment difference between the two are not too great.
I would love to have my 4.2 with a 6 sp manual transmission -- this is my most significant "gripe" with the car. I have been told that there is a 6 speed tiptronic transmission that will "equal" the performance of the 6 spd manual -- but alas not here in the US and not in 2001 (so far).
It is not necessarily an easy choice -- again, try the back to back to back test drives if at all possible.