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Toyota Avalon 2004 and earlier
Welcome to the continuation of the Toyota Avalon -
Two topic. Those of you joining us from that
topic are welcome to continue your discussion.
If you're new to this topic, you may want to
follow the above link for additional archived
posts.
Thanks,
L8_Apex
Sedans Host
Two topic. Those of you joining us from that
topic are welcome to continue your discussion.
If you're new to this topic, you may want to
follow the above link for additional archived
posts.
Thanks,
L8_Apex
Sedans Host
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Comments
Does this sound right and am I missing anything major by not getting the XLS?
Thanks for your opinions in advance.
Our 2000 Avalon has got more squeaks and rattles than any other car we have owned (including American cars). When I called the service department today, the manager covered his you know what by saying he wouldn't be able to make the car "noise free". What a way to get out of any troublshooting. Toyota's quality has gone way down and to any of you out there I would think twice about purchasing one.
e-miller1:
As far as the locks, that feature of having to manually unlock all doors except the drivers is ridiculous. I hate the feature and am having a module installed that will unlock "all doors" when turning the engine off.
Thanks in advance, I'll be checking here often.
The recirculate setting is a function of temperature differential triggering an automated response. Recirculated air is the fastest way for the system to bring the temp to the desired setting. When you switch from manual or turn it on, it's a pretty sure bet that there is at least a 5 degree difference between the internal temp and your setting. The system is programmed to
eliminate this difference as quickly as possible,
which includes top fan speed and and recirculation.
When you think about it, it is certainly much easier to cool the cooler air in the cabin than it is to keep pumping in very hot air from the outside. (In the case of the air conditioning)
If this is a problem for you, the only way around it is to hit the recirc button to get outside air, or take the system off auto before you turn the car off so it won't come on when you start up. When you have an automatic setting, you lose some versatility for the privilege. But by
turning off recirculate you compromise the
efficiency of the system, something the designers
probably did not anticipate.
I can tell you that I had the same system in my
Chrysler Concorde (probably the best working system in the car) and it did the same thing as the Avalon when it was in auto mode.
So there you have it. The laws of physics strike again. I hope you find this info helpful. This explanation is a modified requote of the earlier posts you were alluding to. In that issue, the person asking the question wanted to know if this automated feature could be turned off (programmed differently) so the recirc wouldn't happen at all.
I have to add that I find this very interesting that so many people object to recirculated air. There is always fresh air coming into the car through various areas in the car body. The car is not airtight. So what's wrong with recirculated air? It all passes through a filter and you can always hit a button to turn it off, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to keep pumping 106 degree dusty, ragweed infested Texas summer air into the car cabin. But that's just me. I know there are much cooler places in the world (we seem to get a lot of Canadians in this group and I sure envy them this month), but if you got a five degree differential, the system is designed to bring it down as quickly and economically as possible. I just shows the infinite variety of car owners preferences. That's why you have to take all of the comments in these forums with a grain of salt.
Hope you enjoy your 2K Avalon as much as I have enjoyed mine.
In case anybody wonders, while I don't own an Avalon, I do own a Tundra but that has a leather wrapped wheel.
I'm very much interested in buying a new 2001 when they become available, and I understand from the posts I've seen you put up recently that the only likely change this model year will be the possible addition of a GPS-based navigation system, a feature which I am not interested in...
Thanks,
>Mike<
Thanks,
Greg
However my car (now 6 months old) looks like new. I have treated the seats once with Meguiars Gold Class Leather Cleaner/Conditioner (since no one in Galveston, Texas sells Lexsol). I have had spills and other stains that have wiped right off (I keep the cleaner and a clean cloth in the trunk).
The only thing that gets dirty fast seems to be the shift lever and I clean it along with the steering wheel every time I wash the car and it too looks new.
I wouldn't worry. This is some of the best leather I have ever seen in a car (bar none including Lexus). We love the car, all of its features and look forward to owning it many years.
BTW...we have had no squeaks, no rattles, no problems and the car now has 7000 miles.
Your story parallels my own. In my case the Regional Toyota Service Manager reported 'no problems' after a test drive at 4,000 miles. When the dealer Service Manager and I rode with him he had to admit there was a serious 'thump' on changing all gears. He ordered the pan dropped. The inspection showed metal filings in the transmission oil. The entire trans was replaced (dealer had our car for 30 days). The problem persisted. Regional Technician then took a stab at it. (13,000 miles) His test drive showed 'no problems'. Again, the SM and I rode with him and again the problem presented itself. Now, is that weird or what?
This time they exchanged the computer with the one from the technician's new XLS. The problems did reduce, but never went totally away. At about 30,000 miles, I started up and when I placed the auto gear shift in Reverse, you would have thought the whole trans was falling out. Happened several times thereafter.
You say they have extended your warranty to 7
years and 100,000 miles. Great. But what the h--- good is that if they keep telling you there is 'no problem'? Also, factory customer service telling you the only alternative is arbitration.
Boy, that's familiar. In my case they called it 'binding arbitration'. I finally determined that was an outright lie - you do not have to accept the arbitrator's decision. But, as I stated in my original message, you will be up against a real brick wall. Remember, Toyota is paying for the cost of arbitration. Plus, your state may have consumer laws that are more effective then this hard route. If you do choose arbitration, have a good independent transmission mechanic check out the car. If his findings are in your favor HAVE HIM CALLED AS AN EXPERT WITNESS. You may have to pay him, but it's your only good bet to beat their system.
While I am waiting for delivery of our 2000 XLS, the dealer has provided us with a 'loaner'. It's a '95 XLS with 107,000 miles. On about every shift it feels like the trans is tearing the car apart. So, this Toyota fault is not new. If ANY factory rep tells you rough shifting is normal, tell them they are full of beans.
One other thing: The technician who told you the transmission roughness was a result of "a heavy car and momentum had to go somewhere" is so full of it that it's almost funny. Good luck!
Finally decided to quit messing with it and watch what it does. It (erroneously) jumps to "recirculate" when its hot outside. Problem is that its hotter inside. After it has run for a while it will go back to my setting.
I think in the winter it might have been going the opposite way.
Have never had an automatic HVAC system like this in a car before. Would be so much nicer if in addition to the temperature you have it set for, it would display the temperature it thinks it is. Else provide an indicator that its heating or cooling.
As to the TV commercials, yes it appears Toyota is finally running Avalon ads.
As to spell checking, this system still doesn't know how to spell Avalon.
You are correct that the internal temperature is usually higher inside the car initially in the summer. However, the theory is that the A/C can do nothing about the outside temp, but the internal air will keep getting cooler with each pass through the system until it hits the target temp you have set. First pass 100, next pass 98, next pass 94, etc. Meanwhile the outside temp is still 100. If you keep pumping that air into the system, it has to work much harder at cooling it. Again, keeping in mind that speed is an issue here. Most people want their car to heat or cool as quickly as possible. When you hit your target, the system opens up the mixture vent to blend internal and external air because the system can now handle it without breathing to hard.
Commercial building HVAC does the same thing. It is a constant war between letting fresh air mix into a sealed building versus saving energy by recirculating the already conditioned internal air. If building managers had their way, there would be no fresh air (they usually aren't building tenants) because the systems would be operating at maximum efficiency and saving them money. We would all die of the fumes, but that's the price we pay;-)
My dad used to be in the A/C business. It takes tremendous amount of energy to bring a temperature down 20 to 30 degrees. That's why it is unwise to shut off vents to rooms in your home. You just create big heat sinks that make your A/C work harder. There is no insulation in your internal walls. Your insulation in your outer walls is rated on how much heat passes through them over a period of time. The point of this is to slow down the heat down enough that an A/C unit can handle it efficiently. Once an internal room heats up, the heat passes through the walls like they weren't there (0 insulation). Your A/C ends up working much harder and using up more power.
So back to the point. I don't know how Toyota programmed their system, but if it's like Chrysler, if you have the temp set, even if Auto is off, it will still act as if it is in Auto. I'll do some experimenting with mine to see if the Avalon system does the same thing. At any rate, that's my 2 cents worth.
etc.
I then went to a local Toyota dealership and gave
them a copy of the print-out and said that all I
had to do was push a button to get the price shown
on the printout. The dealership had 17 Avalons in
stock to pick from. They immediately matched the
CO price and I took delivery with no hassle or no
push or whining. In fact the salesman and the
sales manager both stated that when a customer
walks in with an internet price they know that they
either must meet the price or let the business go
- it's a simple business decision. The finance guy was prewarned by the salesman that we wouldn't be interested in warranty extensions or any other add ons. He also was as nice as could be.
I received a price I am well satisfied I couldn't
significantly improve upon. The dealership and the salesman (Santa Maria, CA Toyota, Mr. Fermin
Vasquez) must have been happy with the price or
they wouldn't have sold it.
So we have a happy customer. A happy salesman. A
happy dealership. A price matching CarOrder's. Choice of 17 models on the site. Immediate delivery -it's in my garage now. Polite, informed sales people and finance manager. Tell me again why anyone would consider going through the delays, changing account reps, and nonpersonalized service so often talked about in discussions about internet buying services.
Now I have to read the owner's manual which appears to be just slightly longer than "War and Peace".
After the last weatherstrip was replaced, the dealer told me that no one else was having the problem, I went to several different dealerships to look at older model Avalon's. All had wear on the door weatherstrip. I informed the dealer and asked for arbitration.
I had my arbitration meeting last week; I don't expect to win it, but it certainly made me feel better that I decided to do it.
I am having a professional sign made for my car which will detail the problems that I have had with my car. I know that is probably tacky to some, but since I paid cash for the vehicle I guess I can do with it as I want, as long as I don't libel anyone with my comments.
And since I live near the Toyota Technical Center, I plan to drive to their building often and let them look at a my nice sign.
I have been to the dealership 17 times for various fixes for this vehicle. I think that after driving it with the sign for a few months I need to sell it and find a decent car.
Anyone recommend a decent car besides a Toyota?
OTOH, why is it that most don't have any problem at all, but those who have problems, have them repetitively? Why should one bad wiper motor cause you to experience another one, manufactured at least six to 12 months after your original? I just wonder, sometimes.
Those of us in the 70 year age bracket can remember much worse things than that. My best friend had the motor fall out of a 55 Pontiac beause the motor mounts were not fastened properly.
What did I do about the weatherstrip-nothing. When I traded the 98 in on a 00 nothing was said. I did notice that the design problem was corrected.
In summary, don't forget that there are some 10k or more parts in an automobile and I sometimes marvel that they move at all.
One more point, I own a 99 Silverado Z-71 pickup. While I have no complaints myself about the truck, you should go over and read some of the problems others have had. They cover the waterfront.
US products are better in the last 5 years, but they still don't hold a candle to vehicles made by people who actually risk losing their jobs if they make junk. The incentive (disincentive) is a big one, and I believe that the buyers of the import products inherently believe that, but would never say it out loud because their neighbor (brother, brother-in-law, etc) works for the Big 3 and they are afraid of backlash. After living in Detroit for 10 years, a fact remains: union workers go absolutely violent and ballistic when their product quality is compared to the imports, because they know they cannot (refuse to?) ever make a car that good. Look at how they demolish the import cars at the Detroit Auto Show. In less than one week, the cars are keyed, slashed, steering wheels broken, etc., and all because they make a better car.
In recent years, the proliferation of Honda, Toyota, BMW, MB, et al, plants in the U.S. producing cars of quality comparable to those from their native countries has muddied the question a little. It seems a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction to blame the lowest end of the food chain (i.e, the line worker or the UAW) for the lesser quality.
Rather, I'd submit that it is the management philosophy of American car companies that is to blame. Sure, one can carp about UAW workers making a couple of dollars more an hour than those in Japan or Germany, where in truth the foreign worker may in fact make more. Even more more relevant, it is harder to fire a worker in almost any developed country than the U.S., unions notwithstanding. German unions are far more influential than U.S. ones, and despite a little recent trend towards restructuring, lifetime (or very long-term) employment is still the norm in Japan.
The question to me, more than the UAW, is how come the foreign car companies can produce cars here, with American workers getting paid similar wages to UAW workers, get better quality, and not have to pay CEO's and upper management in the millions. The difference between working conditions and compensation for a Toyota worker in Georgetown and a GM worker in Detroit is pretty minimal. However, for the upper level it is pretty huge - maybe rather than focusing on blaming the grunts, we should be asking why domestic execs are pulling down orders of magnitude greater compensation for more meager results, in terms of a quality product, than their foreign counterparts.
The workers on the line, if properly led and motivated, produce the goods - the foreign manufacturers here have proved that. I suggest that the culture of domestic car companies is lacking and, as in most organizations, this is the fault of those at the top, not at the bottom.
FWIW, I own a Toyota and avoid, where I can, paying for products to support some CEO living like a member of the Bourbon dynasty and treating his company like his personal cash cow. I'm also a white-collar professional w/a graduate education, so the statements above are not due to any kind of class solidarity.
Between Consumers Reports, Edmonds, et al the bottom line is the bottom line and these are merely tools to be used in determining the best price you can get in a given area. I think that I got a fair price all things being considered.
The car is Black with Stone interior, Moon roof, the leather and wheel package,mats, keyless entry & cargo net.
I'll add aftermarket wood in Rosewood and perhaphs an amp and sub-woofer to the car if the radio does not produce to my liking.
I am interested in what other black car owners might have to say about this color combination. Anybody have the "gold package"?
Dave - Massachusetts
My previous car was a 1996 Maxima and in that car the initial fan speed was high on hot days but it dropped back to low in 10 or 15 minutes and usually remained in that position thereafter.
I have ensured that the visor for the sun roof is closed as I know sun through the sunroof can upset the cooling cycle but this does not seem to help.
Is my system operating normally or should I be complaining to the dealer? I would be interested in the experience of others. This is the only real complaint I have about my car.
My initial impression after the first fifty miles is that the car is quiet and that the basic sound system does not need anything as the sound quality is excellent. Also, with the stone interior I have rethought the after-market wood trim as I think that it would actually detract from the interior appearance. I am putting on the locking wheel nuts and re-intalling my Viper Alarm system. Then the handfree and radar detector go in and the package is ready. I like it a lot!
I'll track mileage at 87 Oct. and report in.
Finally, the car seems to be traveling faster than the speedometer indicates. I'll ask one of the locals to clock me in town at 50 just to check it.
My windshield did not have a green image in it and I am a six footer. I can see the speed but not the turn signals easily. The dash configuration needs some work, and I wish that an onboard compass were on all models.
Thanks for everyones comments, you all helped a lot.
Dave
When you look at my new Avalon you have a car built in the US with American labor and it is a great car. You then wonder why my '98 Suburban suffers quality issues like it does?
The answer is simple, it is engineering and profit driven. An American automaker can screw together a car as well as anyone else, it is what he is screwing together that matters.
Take for instance a conversation I had this year at the autoshow with a GM worker from the transmission plant. He told me the 4L60E in my Suburban was engineered to only last to 100,000 miles. It was designed and engineered to break. Compare that to a Toyota Tacoma for instance and many have well into the 200,000 mile plus range on the original tranny. A fluke? I think not.
As long as American executives force engineers to design "more profitable" cars, our beloved Buicks and Fords will continue to be made of cheap plastics and poor mechanicals that have planned obsolesence.
Unions may have something to do with it to, but before you blame the worker on the line it is important to look at who designed the part he is installing.
Just my two cents.
As to the Union issue, I have some very strong opinions here but I really don't think this is an appropriate forum for them.
This is a real fee and we are not compensated for it. We used to get half the money back as a secret holdback. This practice was stopped in '95 after a class action suit. The suit also had Toyota issue those $150 coupons you have seen advertised on Edmunds.
This is also why the coupons are specific to a region. There was a certain number of those certificates issued for each TDA and when they are gone in that region (as they are in MD and VA now), you can't get any more.
For any who are curious about the fee in VA, the TDA on an XL Avalon is $459.
If you can answer this, I will be very thankful.
Do you know if the 2001 Avalon will have a black or almost-black leather interior option?
If not, WHY? Is there some reason there is not a dark interior option? This is the only thing keeping me from buying one.
Thank you so much for your help.
gentlegiant
I also wonder if they will ever offer some kind of a "Sport" package on the Avalon, for those who want the same comfort, but firmer handling without feeling like a rock.
As long as we are at it, why don't they raise the HP to 225-250, and let the car really fly?
On the performance side, according to the ToyotaParts4U website, TRD/Kazuma will be producing a version of the Camry/Solara supercharger, a bolt on, smog-legal, warranty preserving (I believe) addition that boosts HP to around 270. When this becomes available, I'm going to really consider this. For suspension, slightly stiffer springs and a little more damping in the shocks would be nice, but I don't know if anything is available for this, esp. if they are Toyota parts.
Even if available as aftermarket Toyota (TRD), it would be nice to have this as a factory package (supercharged Avalon w/tighter suspension) to avoid futzing around w/modifying a stock car. However, such a machine may not be to Toyota's advantage from a CAFE or marketing niche standpoint.
Would be nice, though & I would buy one.
On the engineering question of foreign vs. domestic, I saw an analysis once that was interesting. It contended that in Japan, the best engineering graduates, from places like Tokyo University, Waseda (Japan's Ivy league equivalents) sought jobs with Toyota, Honda, etc., since these were the companies/technologies of the greatest prestige in Japan.
However, in the good old US of A, it has been a long time since hotshot MIT/Stanford, etc., grads have been angling for positions at GM/Ford. For the past thirty years, our top technical talent has gravitated towards defense/space/basic research/computers/biotech. As a result, the U.S. is a leader in these types of technologies (we make super missiles/bombs/submarines, for example), while Japanese/German economies have had their most talented techies working on automotive and other consumer related technologies.
I don't necessarily agree w/this whole-heartedly, but it is an interesting proposition. What I believe is that the continuing lag in U.S. automotive quality is a combination of a number of cultural and economic factors. UAW work rules/grievance procedures probably contribute as a negative factor, but the problem appears to have more dimensions than that.
First Kudos
Great Gas mileage city/hwy. & Mountain climbing 27.5 MPG on regular gas (85 octane High altitude)
Everyone gets lost in back seat.
Good power for traffic merging and driving over the Rockies
Quite and quality finish.
Driver comfort for a 6 footer 240lb.
Major complaint
Crappie JBL sound system. Any CD over half volume with heavy bass passages comes out distorted. Frequency ranges poor. Dealer checked it out and claims everything OK. My 98 Eddie Bauer Explorer with Ford's premium sound system 10 times better.
Wish list
For a premium top of the line car for Toyota several things strike me as missing.
Before mentioned sound system
Window and door locks not lighted.
No radio, temp control etc. on steering wheel. (Never realized how convenient to have till I don't have it)
Electronic display shows everything except [non-permissible content removed] Ave. MPG. Zero's out after every trip.
3 colors of green on dash board.
Piss Poor sound system. Again
Other then these love the car and would buy again.
As for the stereo distortion, I have a suggestion. I have had a few complaints about this and all were traced to the settings. In my opinion, the stereo sounds best with the bass at no more than +2, mid at 0 or +1 and treble at +4 or 5. Set this way, you should not get the bass distortion but still have enough to thump your stomach at high volume.
When listening to talk radio, move the bass to -2 to prevent deep voices from being too low.
BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE WAS THAT THE DOOR HAS TO BE OPENED AFTER THE ALARM IS SET FOR 30 SECONDS OR MORE.
It has been over 100 F here in TX for the last month and my fans have never run on high over 5 minutes. Even after sitting in the direct sun all day in an open parking lot. I can't imagine Ontario being that hot. Have the dealer take a look at it. Sounds like a quirky thermostat.
As too the air flow to the back seat, those vents can be shut off so they do not blow on the rear passengers.
Hope this helps.
1. What date will the 2001 Toyotas be available?
2. What changes will take place on the 2001 model?
3. What is your opinion of the 2000 Avalon?
Hope these questions are not repetitious or redundant. I don't recall seeing these posted before.
Thanks for your help!
DRGG4
Any information is appreciated.
Thank You !