Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler Minivan Problems & Solutions

bbqbrosh · December 2001

I have noticed premature rust through situations occuring on 96-current Caravan Voyager vehicles.These seem as though they are coming through from corrosion within the wheel wells. It looks as though these could lead to serious conditions well before 80k miles on some, depending on use and environment. Rust is evident upon inspection of the tower in the engine compartment. Anyone back me up with similar situation?

bbqbrosh · December 2001

Mine is right under the rear wiper switces on the dash, 95 Chrysler Grand Voyager, with all the toys. Maybe some do, some don't.

lxpatel · December 2001

I have a 96 T&C Lxi, with 3.8L tow package, bought it brand new, luckily even at 110K miles i have not had to replace a transmission. But i have religiously changed transmission oil every 15K at the dealer with mopar type 7176 ATF oil. Along with these regular transmission services i have also had the major services at intervals of 30k at the dealer. according to the dealer what has been saving my transmission is the tow package that cools the ATF oil. I reside in San Francisco where there are many hills.

BUT

i have had a problem at 70k, the engine coughs, hesitates and die, the dealer at 70k said it was programming and flashed new programming and was fine.

same problem is occuring now, but now it does not die but just as if it is skipping a beat and idling slower, the dealer said it was idle speed regulator and changed it, but the problem still continues.

now i am wondering if it worth the hassle of maintaining these delicate machines because everytime i visit the dealer they have charged $700 to $3000, this does not include the regular 30k services or transmission services. I have spent about 10000 dollars since owenership of this van in repairs other than regular maintenance i am debating if it worth the extra hassle.

dave210 · December 2001

After about $12,500 bucks of money put into my old 1988 Plymouth Grand Voyager LE, I said enough was enough. Plus I was starting to feel uncomfortable taking road trips in it, never knowing if we'd make it or not.

Those $12,500 bills can all be related back to my good 'ole local Chrysler dealer who claimed EVERY time I brought my car in, it would need 3,000 things fixed for a minimum price of $500. Amazing how when I found a good mechanic, those bills and problems stopped....

Anyway, I traded my old van in on a brand new 1996 Town & Country LXi and after $120 of maintenance over the 4.5 years (not including oil changes or tire rotations) and 39,000 miles, I now have a 2001 Town & Country Limited.

I will say while I probably should have gotten my 1996 van serviced according to the manual (although I always had it checked by my mechanic after the warranty was up), after 4.5 years and all me ever having to do was change the oil and change the battery for $120 bucks, my car was perfect. It had its rattles, but mechanically and "transmissionly" it was perfect (although my wipers went on by themselves but that was fixed under warranty). And my $120 battery bill was much nicer than my $12,500 bill on my old van.

I say it's not worth putting any more than you've already put into it. You've already put more money into it than it's worth and doesn't sound like the most reliable anymore. If I were you, I'd start looking at a new car.

backy · December 2001

Has anyone had trouble with the door tracks on the side doors of the '96-'00 generation vans? I have a '99 GCS, and last winter the sliding doors started rattling in cold weather. The winter of '99-'00 wasn't that cold, but last winter was a bear. I mentioned it to my service writer (Tim at Walser Dodge in Bloomington, MN--he is GREAT, have been going to him with my Caravans for over 10 years) and he said it might be a faulty track and he would have both tracks replaced under warranty. That took care of the problem for the rest of the winter, but then today I noticed a bit of a rattle again (it just started getting cold here around Christmas, down near zero now). The van is still in warranty so I'm not worried about cost, but I'm a little concerned if the tracks have gone bad again in just one year. I owned a '91 Caravan and its door track was faultless for eight years.

(My apologies if this has already been covererd, but I ran out of patience scanning 900 posts.)

dmathews3 · December 2001

Could it just be an adjustment problem. When things get cold they contract and I wonder if a readjustment of the door hardware would help. I wouldn't think the tracks would wear out this soon unless you are using if for a bus and opening and closing a million times.

backy · December 2001

That's what I thought the first time, that the tracks just needed an adjustment. I was surprised when the dealer replaced the tracks, leading me to believe they might be defective. In fact the service writer said as much, something like "there's been a problem with the tracks, and we've been replacing them with revised tracks and that takes care of the problem." Then there was my '91 Caravan that never needed an adjustment through 8 winters. The van is due for an oil change soon, so I'll see what the dealer has to say this time.

indydriver · January 2002

I had a fuel rail leak on my '90 Ply GVLE (manuf. 11/89) about two years ago. I started smelling raw gas in the garage after it was driven home and the garage door was shut. Luckily....no fires. I took it to the dealer, a new rail plus fittings were special ordered, at it was fixed for about $500 if I remember correctly.

Re: trannys, the same vehicle had the "modified" Ultradrive and failed at 68,500 miles. Fortunately, this was when DC routinely gave out 7/70 warranties at no charge on every vehicle. I think I paid a $100 deductible for an entirely new trans 1500 miles before the warranty ran out. Now over 70K on the "new" trans and no problems. As a couple more reference points, my '99 300M was delivered from the factory with a faulty valve in the trans pump which was replace under warranty. Later, the solenoid for 2nd gear went out and certain black box electronics were replaced. Our newest DC vehicle, a 2000 Dodge GCS has been trouble-free for 20,000 miles.

One final observation: I don't think I've ever heard of a Mopar engine failure in following several DC boards here for 3 years. My ownership experience with DC's engines has been flawless.

dkrab · January 2002

I don't know what Superman has to do with all this, but I can tell you that the fuel rail leaks are much more common than "debris falling from the sky aka Superman Story." If you own a DC van with the 3.3L or 3.8L engine (or any DC product with those engines), just be aware of the potential. Of course they don't all leak but they are fragile and if disturbed, are more likely to leak than they should be. And don't think that it only affects '96-'00 models. ALL DC products with those engines have the same fuel rail design. Not an alarm here, just a heads-up to be AWARE. My '91 DC van leaked fuel from the o-ring seals in question on the 96-00 models. I had fuel puddled up on the engine and you could really smell the fuel. If you pay attention and stop driving it if you smell fuel, you could prevent a serious event. It DOES happen, in spite of what Carleton may wish.

Otherwise, the 3.3 and 3.8 engines themselves are very good. But if you have never heard of one failing, read on. Mine was blowing blue smoke at 58K. Rings siezed to the pistons. Burned a quart every 600-800 miles. the 7/70 warranty paid for it, less $100 deductible. Otherwise it would have been an expensive repair. But unlike the fuel rail leaks, I have never heard of another DC v6 with the oil consumption problem mine had. It must have been an anomoly. Same with the stuck lifter, but that was at 137K.

indydriver · January 2002

You know, brand loyalty is an interesting phenomenon. In my 20's, I drove nothing but Japanese cars and motorcycles. I refused to "buy American" if that meant accepting lower quality, reliability, performance, styling etc. I was really proud of ChryCo when I decided in late 1989 that their minivan was the best product on the market for my needs. I have bought nothing but ChryCo products since. I now find that I feel like an alien in a GM or Ford. I don't like their styling, the interior switches and controls are in the wrong place or work backwards....its like being in a foreign country. My wife and I are that way about vans. So, yes, people rationalize their decisions but that's human nature.

carleton1 · January 2002

Just go read in the problems forums for all vehicles. In DC forums, most problems are reported by "former" owners while in other forums they are current problems reported by current owners.

4aodge · January 2002

jjjbarb · January 2002

New to the board and am looking for guidance. Purchased Dec2001 a used 2001 GC ES with 3.8L. After parking in my garage for the last few weeks, have noticed a collection of soot under the van, just about mid-way. I peered underneath and witnessed smoke coming out from what appears to be a hole. Also noticed a slight drip which appears to be water. If the water is coming from a manufacturer-designed weep hole, then I suppose the dripping is a sign of proper functioning. However, regards the soot/exhaust, this is at least 6 inches in circumference and is thickening up. Am also experiencing a smaller amount of soot by the tailpipe as well. I had a 99 Windstar, have a 94 Accord, and have never experienced this situation. I am very hopeful I do not have an engine issue or a hole in the engine pipe. I've got an appointment with the Dodge dealer (this will be my first service experience with them)and am concerned abt getting a straight answer. The vehicle has 21K miles and is therefore still covered by 3/36. Appreciate any similar experiences and insights. Thanx.

carleton1 · January 2002

I had noticed a leak of water if I had not driven far enough to totally warm the exhaust system. I do not recall seeing any soot at the "weep" hole. Our muffler and exhaust pipe is all rusty now and my observation is that GM stainless steel exhaust and muffler on 87 R-10 and 91 Astro CL lasted longer than the muffler and exhaust will last on my 99 GC SE.

plrod · January 2002

Anyone considering the purchase of a DC minivan should get the best, longest, extended warranty w/o deductibles available. DC has attractive looking products, we own two currently, but IMO the extended warranty is a must and cheap insurance given our experiences with these cars. Alternately, lease one for 3 years/36,000 miles and then get another one.

royallen · January 2002

plrod, I'm sorry to hear you have had a disappointing experience.

Considering that warranty contract costs include money for repair claims, a broker's fee, underwriter's overhead and profit, they can hardly be cheap. The only customer to come out ahead has a headache for a vehicle and hassles with claims and down time even if the repairs are paid. Alternately, one researches vehicles with acceptable reliability, has a thorough inspection before purchase, does proper preventive maintenance and will over time have reasonable repair expenses. Oh, I also have a local independent mechanic who is very smart(he gets it right the first time) and very honest. I purchased my '95 Caravan, 3.3L, 2 years ago and so far have needed front brakes turned and replaced pads(lifetime warranty), $20 and $30, replaced a cracked windshield for $185, replaced the battery for $54(7 year prorated warranty) and replaced a couple of tires. I doubt an extended warranty would have paid any of these items. A failed water pump replacement and new serpentine belt was $179- maybe a warranty item. That is about .015/mile(.02 including tires), a very impressive low cost.
If my van becomes a repair headache it would be sold and a better vehicle purchased and someone else can play the warranty game. At this point my wife loves it and I'm optimistic that we will continue to be satisfied owners.

carleton1 · January 2002

My niece and husband got a used 96 T&C LXi, live in central Nebraska and use it to tow a rather heavy trailer. They had transmission failure at 150,000 miles. My sister (mother of this niece with the T&C) got a used 86 Caravan and sold it when it had 170,000 miles...with no problems.
How and where did the myth about DC minivans being less reliable than others get started?

emale · January 2002

carleton,

you are kidding right?? major and widespread tranny problems from the late 80s to the early-mid 90s are probably the main reason there is still a seemingly perpetual fear by some of dc minis to this day. there is no doubt that the recent minis are probably as good as any other minis out there...but nearly a half decade worth of bad trannies will be hard to wipe away, and there are only too many people out there willing to dwell on the past, if you know what i mean...

dkrab · January 2002

Carlton, I addressed the issue of fuel rail leaks because you so casually dismissed it as a made-up issue posted by non-DC owners. If people are reading this board to become aware of issues with the DC vans, then mine is an appropriate post. Sorry if you don't like that. By the way, the "phantom" is in control of the windshield wipers on DC, not sliding doors on brand H. They get jammed doors when not used just exactly right. Tranny clunks are posted by some, just like fuel rail leaks are reported by some. Certainly not all. The clunk (which is rare) won't cause a fire. And it hasn't been ignored for a decade by the manufacturer. I don't get your point. And you are correct, I just traded in my DC van. But I have 10 years of experience with it, more than you have with yours. That's not to say your input isn't sometimes useful, but don't try to say my input has no use just because I recently traded my DC van in on a different brand.

Your fairly passionate about what you believe, so we have something in common. As far as the issue of brand loyalty, it is a strange phenomenon. I suffered from it with Volkswagen. Hey, I still like VeeDubs. I have owned 4 of them, and never had a major problem with any. I would definately buy another, but I am well aware that they have had bad reliability ratings. If folks are familiar with DC vans and like them, I certainly am in no position to question them. They are good vans, but like anything else, they have their weaknesses. That's what this board is here to address.

On the issue of water dripping from the exhaust system and staining the garage floor, carelton is correct about it happening if you have not driven far enough to get the exhaust system hot. My van's original muffler just behind the catalytic converter did have a weep hole, and water would come out of it. It's normal. My original exhaust lasted 90K. Just try to run the van long enough to dry it out once in a while, or you will be looking at a prematurely rusted out muffler.

carleton1 · January 2002

With all the doom and gloom about DC minivan problems reported by former owners, I personally know and have met only 1 while all of the many other DC minivan owners have never had a major problem.
Honda lovers can call it anecdotal or throw out any other epithet they want. The facts are that Honda reliability has not surfaced in the area where I live.
Imagine, with the highly rated Honda, there were 4 Honda Accords that had major problems of a total of 7 Accords owned by people we personally knew in March, 1999. Honda lovers would like you to believe this fact was written by JK Rowling.

jjjbarb · January 2002

dkrab/carleton1

Thx for yr comments on exhaust. To clarify, the water is dripping in 'front' of the muffler where the engine pipe connects, and straight down from that spot is where there is a mighty large collection of soot developing. My wife typically loads the kids, starts the engine, pulls out of the garage and drives away. Local trips are ususally long enough (5-10 miles) to burn off moisture. But maybe they are not...Any thoughts on the soot?

dmathews3 · January 2002

I just find it shocking that you know so many people with Honda problems and only one with DC problems. Makes me wonder if you got more than just talk and can prove it.

carleton1 · January 2002

....And very few Honda owners will ever believe there are reliable DC minivans. Odyssey owners can cast disparaging remarks about my integrity all they want. I post in the Town Hall for the benefit of readers who are unaware that Odyssey owners make a career of being a professional troller to trash DC at every opportunity.
Apparently it is not common for others to trust people as well as I do. I always trust anyone until facts prove me wrong. Sorry that dmathews3 does not feel as I do.
For privacy reasons I have NOT written the last names of the 4 Honda Accord owners who had serious problems...nor the 3 owners who had zero problems.
One is Sue B. who is my niece. One is Omar S. who is my son-in-law. A third is Natalie K. who was the paid baby sitter for our grandchildren. The fourth is Judy W. who is a neighbor.
I have also written that since that time, I have not met another Honda Accord owner who has had problems...and I have talked with many. Judy W. who most emphatically told me "Do NOT buy a Honda" in March 1999, traded her 1991 Accord EX in on a NEW 2001 Honda Accord LX so apparently her anger at Honda was tempered by the memory of her earlier Accord LX that had no problems.
4aodge, swampcollie, myself and many other satisfied owners of DC minivans have tried to be reasonable and all of us admit that the Odyssey is a very fine minivan with distinct advantages of which the Magic Seat and the new, more responsive, more powerful powertrain is quite an achievement. On the other hand, DC minivans have many nice comfort and convenience features that can not be found on an Odyssey.

4aodge · January 2002

eneth · January 2002

Anecdotes are fine - but the track record of the DaimlerChrysler vans isn't just in subjective opinion, it's in the:

Recall of all the early vans with antilock brake systems, after years of court battles.

Recall of millions of vans with defectively designed tailgate latches, after years of very public court battles and numerous injuries and deaths.

Recall of almost all the 1996 models for leak-prone gas tanks.

Recall of all the early vans with UltraDrive transaxles.

Recall of 1.6 million vans with leaky fuel rails (delayed a year, after the recall of over a million LH cars with similar designs, years ago).

DaimlerChrysler fans seem to forget that this line of automobiles was a history-making trend setter in terms of the market place - and that it is also history-making and trendsetting in that it's the most recalled line of vans in the industry. No other manufacturer of minivans has had so many battles with recalls, year after year, design after design - why is it that other manufacturers seem to be able to design safe vehicles from the outset, recall them where mistakes are made, without being forced to by the Federal government?

Even if you forgive them their dismal repair history of most years until very recently, you've got to wonder whether the current generation will turn out as bad as the past generations where safety recalls are concerned.

dmathews3 · January 2002

Very well said but the DC boys will find some lame excuse for their point of view.

dkrab · January 2002

jjjbarb, if you are seeing smoke in front of the forward muffler, toward the middle of the car, I would have to guess you have an exhaust leak. Also, it should not be blowing that much smoke, even if it's still warming up. I have a hunch it's running much too rich, at least when it's cold. You'll have to take it in and have that looked at by the dealer. Could be something simple, maybe the throttle position sensor. The exhaust leak should be covered under warranty, too. Is it blowing smoke from between the catalytic converter and the forward muffler, or is it before the cat? Just curious; either way you will have to take it in.

Maybe I fall into the "Honda Lover" category, but I have to say that there is some merit to the argument that past performance of a make of vehicle is a legitimate predictor of future performance. I think where everyone gets tripped up here is that some readers here take comments to mean ALL of one brand or another are BAD because of this or that problem. I don't think anyone here really believes that. There are many very reliable Chrysler vans out there. They don't all catch fire. They don't all have bad trannys, etc. (Unfortunately, my Chrysler van had both the tranny and fuel leak problems, but I am lucky that way). Taken as a group, though, the Chrysler vans have not had a stellar record. You do take a bit more of a chance when buying a DC van over a Honda or Toyota or some of the others out there. But it isn't a huge gamble, by any reading of the data. The current DC vans are very good. The 96-2000 models were better than their predecessors. And so it goes. Statistically, if you buy a DC van, you are much more likely to get a good one than a bad one. And if you like it, you are much less likely to be annoyed with the little things that do go wrong (this happens to ALL cars) than you would be if you bought a van you don't really like. Buy what you like! Be Happy!

4aodge · January 2002

I really don't care anymore about how much "dirt" you bring up about Chrysler's past, regardless of whether it's fact or fiction. You can continue to use past safety issues with a company that has obviously undergone serious restructuring within the last few years as a reason not to buy a current Chrysler product. I'm glad that makes you feel better about owning a Honda or whatever it is you drive as peace of mind is a very valuble and healthy thing.

I don't care about how long Chrysler took to fix it's transmissions, breaks, door locks, or whatever else you want to throw out there. Why? Because I know that if you were to go out now and buy a 2002 DC minivan, all of the previous issues that were of concern have now been resolved (at least to the extent of my knowledge). I don't care how long it took Chrysler to fix it's transmission. Why? BECAUSE IT'S FIXED.

Some Odyssey owners here can continue to badmouth Chrysler and claim they havent improved quality and they build "deathtraps" or whatever, but they do so knowing that is far from the truth. Just look at Consumer Reports, people here on this board, or even your own friend or neighbor who has a DC minivan. No one here has said Chrysler hasn't struggled with past safety and reliability issues. What car maker hasn't? But is that a reason not to buy a car from a company that builds some of the best products on the market (minivan market at least)? No.

Bottom line, do whatever makes you feel best about driving an Odyssey. Just get the info straight and come to terms with the fact that Chrysler has changed along with the rest of the auto industry over the last 15 years. Whether you like it or not.

-Adam

emale · January 2002

one thing you all have to remember is that eneth=ralph nader.

he (she) brings up some good points...but the trying to warn the masses against chrysler products is getting old...

i say do your homework and get whatever the hell you want. there are no guarantees on anything...

4aodge · January 2002

royallen · January 2002

For those readers interested in data rather than argument, check out Edmunds used car reliability ratings, Consumer Reports subscriber repair reports published each April (from surveys done the previous April) and www.carpoint.msn.com
Interestingly, all three rate the '95 Caravan more reliable than the '96. On Edmunds it is 6.6 vs 5.2.

indydriver · January 2002

My '90 Ply GVLE died yesterday. The original transmission was replaced at 68,500 mile (fortunately under the old 7/70 warranty). The replacement trans went out yesterday after another 71,500 miles. It is, at the very least, "interesting" that these two units, manufactured several years apart, had nearly identical lifespans. Had it towed to the dealer....find out today if its repairable or the vehicle is "totaled".

eneth · January 2002

4aodge,

Given that the engineers who designed this round of minivans are substantially the same as those who designed the earlier ones, unless the cut-costs-at-all-costs mentality changed, you've still got to wonder about the current generation of vans. Had the 96-2000 generation remedied the poor safety record of the prior ones, there might be some reasonable projection to make - but it didn't; given the recalls for leaky gas tanks and now fuel rails, and all the publicity surrounding the very public fires that resulted (one of which killed an elderly woman in the South of the U.S., with a 3-day-old, $35,000 Chrysler Town and Country van), it's put up or shut up time - if this generation of vans has problems, Chrysler will finally have to throw in the towel (or rather, the German stockholders will force it to do so).

Ford didn't learn much from the Pinto fiasco, and history repeated itself with the ignition lock fires, the Explorer and other issues - and it's on the ropes as a result.

Chrysler's bad times aren't the result of foreign competition so much as its own past sins where safety and quality are concerned.

For all those that during the 80s crowed how Chrysler and Ford re-invented themselves and were thriving while GM languished, there were those at GM who were actually doing something - quietly, behind the scenes - to improve things. I've not seen the same sort of widespread safety issue with GM vans - or GM SUVs (remember it's the Liberty that is rolling over in media reports, not the Envoy/Jimmy).

Chrysler is being squeezed at the low end by the Koreans, and will be very pressed by GM in the mid-range - it's got a lot of ground to make up for before it sees daylight again. The Chrysler management who foresaw GM as its biggest threat, were GM to finally awaken, were absolutely, positively correct - and though they recognized the danger, they did too little, too late about the problems that produced all the safety-flawed minivans - and the company is paying the price right now.

The buying public has a right to be skeptical about Chrysler Group's products - for every fan the company has, I'd venture to say there are five more people who fall into the skeptic category. And if the company doesn't do something about its poor image, it'll follow AMC into history.

carleton1 · January 2002

..."For every fan the company has, I'd venture to say there are five more people who fall into the skeptic category..."
...Doesn't Chrysler/Dodge have about 16 % of the market share of all vehicles sold in the USA?
Why can't some people move on? People seem to have forgotten the sorry little underpowered rolling junk cans made in Japan and now gladly buy Nissan, Honda, and Toyota. Why won't the trollers who trash DC forget about the past as they do with Nissan, Honda, and Toyota?

indydriver · January 2002

You grossly overstate the reaction of Chryco fans to the occasional mechanical problem. A generation of boomers have become brand-loyal to Chrysler because of their minivans not in spite of them. My wife doesn't care how much money I sink into keeping a 12 year old vehicle on the road...if her 2000 GCS was totaled tomorrow, she wouldn't even look at another product.

Brand loyalty is an interesting and strong human emotion. Witness your fantasy of a GM renaissance. I left the auto show last week shaking my head and muttering, "poor Bob Lutz, he doesn't have enough years left to fix this mess." The styling (remember, people have to be attracted to a vehicle enough to buy it before they can experience mechanical problems) at every single GM booth (including and especially Saturn) was so pathetic as to embarrass me as an American. Oldsmobile? Why bother being there. Buick? Can you spell b-o-r-i-n-g? Pontiac? They think the Aztec is so cool they're coming out with more models copying that admittedly unique look. Chevy? The Vette is a knockout winner for everyone who can spend $50K on a two seat sports car but their idea of an original idea was to put Aztec styling on the Silverado and call it "Avalanche". They had one concept there that, I swear, looked like a miniature hearse. Cadillac? Have you seen the CTS in person? They are betting the farm on the "creased edge" look and, you heard it here first, it will fail miserably. If they stick with it too long, they will be the next Oldsmobile. To be fair, I did like the Tahoe/Escalade/Denali big SUVs but they're not going to gain market share with $50,000 trucks and Vettes. Did I miss something?

dmathews3 · January 2002

Carleton1 says: Why won't the trollers who trash DC forget about the past as they do with Nissan, Honda, and Toyota?
Could it be because of the fact they are tired of the few "DC fans" who lurk at the other boards and continously trash the other brands? Could it just be payback? Of course carleton you wouldn't be one of those..........would you?

stever · January 2002

Indydriver, you (and others) may be interested in Edmunds.com's recent "Running the Numbers on Market Share" article.

On the other hand, I suspect most here aren't interested in a bash war between members about tin can cars :-)

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

4aodge · January 2002

As a friend, I have to stick up for Carl on this one. I have never seen Carl trash the Odyssey the way I have seen many owners, such as yourself, trash DC minivans. In his defense, Carl was actually going to buy a 1999 Honda Odyssey LX before he was intrigued by the many comfort and convienence features offered in DC minivans.

There are some people here who bash DC minvians either beceause they want to feel better about owning something else or because they are just ignorant. Those are the ones who say Chrysler builds "death traps" and havn't changed their transmission over the last 15 years. Whatever Carl says, he always has either a personal experience or fact to back it up.

Also, I would just like to say that Carl probably has more car buying knowledge than anyone else in the Vans message board. I don't think I've ever known anyone who has owned more cars than he has. And while he is only 67, it is true that you only get smarter with age. That is one thing I've learned for sure with living with BOTH of my grandparents.

Anyway, Carl is not a troll. If Carl is a troll then I could name about 5 Odyssey owners who would also fall into that category. I mean common, didn't you read his nice review of the 2002 Odyssey EX he test drove and how much he said he liked it? Would a DC troll say that about an Odyssey? I don't think so.

-Adam
(16/M/CA)

carleton1 · January 2002

Here is part of the article "marketshare":

"....while leaving the low-grade leftovers (like three-speed Dodge Neon automatics) for the Chrysler brands..."
Last time I looked inside 2002 Neons, the automatic were all 4 speed. But, Edmunds loves to bash Chrysler so what can we expect?

stever · January 2002

To see how other members take issue with our editorial content, please check out the December Letters to the Editors.

(Point well taken about the 3 speeds, Carleton1).

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

carleton1 · January 2002

It appears that people do love their cars and are quick to take issue when someone likes another brand better.
I prefer the ECHO of all small sedans although the PT Cruiser is much more expensive and more comfortable and more attractive. The ECHO is a bargain if a person stays with the basics (PS, A/C, AT) where a comfortable 4 door sedan with the essentials has MSRP under $14,000.

eneth · January 2002

4aodge,

DaimlerChrysler needs more people like you to spread the word about its products - hang in there. There just aren't enough fans out there, so spread the word. It is vital that they get people with positive experiences to help them overcome the (very steep) hill they built of public ill-will toward their products over the last 20-30 years.

I do not love any car I've ever owned; that emotion is reserved for people, not mechanical conveyances. Nor could I ever claim to love a conglomeration of people working to produce a product; what we call a corporation is a nebulous thing not worthy of that emotion. Doens't matter whether it's DaimlerChrysler, Toyota, Honda, Fuji - none of them are worthy of that emotion. Respect? Perhaps - the level of respect for an automaker is tied to one's experiences with its products.

As for opinions on safety, I'll put my faith in statistical surveys and in the numbers that say Chrysler Group has had a poor track record in that regard. Honda hasn't been a safety leader, either - but its Odyssey design currently on sale has better crash data than the DaimlerChrysler vans, which should not be - remember the Odyssey is Honda's first real U.S.-style minivan effort, while we're on the fourth generation of Daimler vans. The DaimlerChrysler vans should trounce the Honda effort - and they don't, whether that's in performance, quality, or safety. That tells me Honda pays more attention to details when designing its vehicles - just as it does in sedans.

The Honda Accord trounces the competition from DaimlerChrysler in sedans - and if D-C is not careful, it will eventually see its van sales slip away, just as it saw its sedan sales slowly eroded by the competition from Honda, Toyota, et. al. Except this time, it's got to face a re-energized GM, and it's going to be squeezed at the lower end both in cars and vans, by the Koreans - who admittedly don't have a stellar reputation for quality yet (but then again, they've got about the same reputation as Chrysler with many buyers ...)

phkck · January 2002

Each year manufactures buy vehicles from other manufactures and tear them apart. Reverse engineering I believe. They see what the competition is doing, what works and what doesn't. So, Honda has been able to learn from problems DC has had in the past (And DC from Honda to be fair) and benefited with a quality product.
We enjoy our 02 T&C Limited and found it to be the best for our family.

carleton1 · January 2002

There are too many satisfied owners of DC minivans who can not be satisfied with any other minivan.
Remember when Volkswagen had a virtual monopoly on small, imported cars? The GREEDY, arrogant, rude Volkswagen dealerships caused many people like myself to never again consider a Volkswagen which to us is the German word for JUNK.
Comfort and convenience features of DC minivans are un-equaled by other minivans. Volkswagen was never know for comfort or luxury. People ridicule the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger which is on most DC minivans...but very few luxury sedans lack this nice feature.
People who do not have padded armrests on the front doors also do not know they are lacking a nice feature.
True, there are people who love Japanese brands but got DC minivans as the offerings from Japan were ugly, inconvenient, gutless, and just unacceptable to the American public until Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mazda copied the DC formula.
These people naturally migrated back to the brand they prefer. The question that has never been satisfactorily addressed is: "Why do these people feel a compulsion to trash DC minivans"?
Most people out in the real world feel DC minivans are just as reliable as any other brand as contrasted to the fanatics who believe everything written by CR or even the few disgruntled former owners of DC minivans who are addicted to the Town Hall.

eneth · January 2002

Perhaps a fair question to ask, then, is why those who've chosen DaimlerChrysler vans then choose to question the motives and comments of those who dare utter anything but hosannas over DaimlerChrysler minivans. Fans of Daimler vans seem to delight in aggrandizing their choice in vehicles by denegrating the opinions of others.

Sorry, but the reputation of the DaimlerChrysler vans is very well reflected in the resale value of the vehicles, and in the steep slippage in market share DaimlerChrysler has undergone in recent years - people are even migrating to untested competitors (Kia Sedona); Kia could easily sell probably three times the number of vans it is bringing to the U.S., despite the relatively poor track record of that brand, quality wise.

Maybe DaimlerChrysler is finally closing a 30-year quality gap - a quality gap that has existed not only with the imports, but with Ford and GM as well. That's great.

The credibility gap that the company faces in restoring public opinion will take even longer to close - and the current crop of product, vans included, isn't going very far toward closing that gap.

Chrysler Group is very much on its way to being an also-ran in the auto industry - which is not a good thing. The only product they've introduced to rave reviews in the past five years is the PT Cruiser - and remember that its designer now works for GM.

The Detroit News said it best when it commented as follows about the 2001 DaimlerChrysler vans: "they should have been home-run products, but they're not".

If Chrysler Group doesn't start hitting some home runs soon, not only will it be passed in sales by Toyota, but perhaps Honda and even Hyundai as well.

All the denegration of the opinions of others will do absolutely nothing to change the market dynamics - dynamics that are clearly demonstrating where Chrysler Group is lacking.

4aodge · January 2002

eneth, you have made some pretty good points regarding Chrysler's past reliability and safety records. However, I do not believe that the situation Chrysler is in now is mainly because of their questionable reliability and safety record. Chrysler was doing better in 1998 before it was bought by Mercedies than it is now, mainly because of all the harmful changes that were made to managment by the Germans from Mercedies. I have read countless articles about how Mercedies has totally changed Chrysler, both in good and bad ways. Chrysler quality has definetly improved since the merger in 1998. That is without a doubt. Every year the quality ratings for many Chrysler products, especially their minivans, has improved.

As for whether or not Chrysler needs people like me, they really do. I know there are alot of Chrysler "mopar" fans out there, and I am one of them, but they need more people who have had positive experiences with DC products. I have a neighbor with a 1997 Town & Country LXi with 70k miles that has no problems and I also have a good friend with a 2000 Town & Country Limited with over 30k miles and they also have not experienced any problems with their van.

I think Honda and Toyota will continue to steal sales away from the DC minivan market share, but that is to be expected. Despite this, I think DC will always sell the most minivans. They offer such a wide range of models from the luxurious Town & Country Limited to the base Caravan SE with prices and equipment that can appeal to almost anyone. I think enough people have had positive experiences with DC minivans to keep them comming back again, or as long as they are looking for another van.

I really like the Odyssey more and more. I would really like a 2002 Odyssey EX-L with the gold paint as I saw one yesterday in San Francisco and I really thought it looked nice. I like the new rims on the EX and the new grille and rear end with the yellow tail lights. I also like the increased power for 2002 with the 3.5L V6. I should really stop by my local Honda dealership and ask them if I can test drive one.

Anyway, I just got back from the Chrysler dealership for the PT Cruiser's 12k mile oil/filter change and I spoke with one of the salesmen there who was telling me about the Odyssey. He said that in 2003 Chrysler will, indeed, offer a slightly depowered version of the 3.5L 24-valve V6 found in the current 300m model in order to compete with the Odyssey. I don't think the torquey 12-valve 215hp V6 currently offered is enough to keep up with the Odyssey's 3.5L engine.

-Adam

eneth · January 2002

I think too many people assume "Mercedes ruined Chrysler" - and that in fact, it was the former Chrysler management (Eaton, et. al.) who knew what was coming, and who bailed out while the bailing was good. Chrysler was headed for a fall; it would have happened whether or not the takeover had come to pass - just as it did many times in the past (more than GM or Ford, Chrysler has a history of boom-then-bust, and the former management knew the bust was coming). Some of it had to do with the economy - but much of it was Chrysler's own making. Styling appeal will only carry you so far if the substance is lacking, and it surely was with most Chrysler products of the 90s. Chrysler Group is paying a price directly as a result of its poor management decisions and its underengineering - ironically, Lee Iacocca had pulled up Chrysler's reputation through the 1980s, only to have it fall again after his exit, with the release of the trouble-plagued transmissions, minivans with safety problems, poorly designed antilock braking systems, and other engineering gaffes that at one point were costing Chrysler over $800 _per unit_ in warranty costs - the highest such warranty costs in the industry.

Eaton, et. al., knew what was coming, and new Chrysler's profit streak was about to end, as it would be forced to engineer more substantial products. And far from being duped by Juergen Schrempp, et. al., I believe they put one over on Daimler Benz, which might not have been so eager to take over had it known what the true problems with Chrysler were (you've got to wonder about the quality of the due diligence done by Daimler-Benz in taking over the U.S. automaker with the poorest reputation for quality, considering its jealous guarding of its own reputation - so the blame isn't entirely on the shoulders of the former Chrysler management).

The one almost certainty is that this genearation of minivans will be Chrysler Group's last in terms of engineering - it is very apparent that all of Chrysler Group's front-drive platforms are going to be replaced by Mitsubishi (or Mitsubishi-Hyundai) platforms, and that the more expensive models will end up as Mercedes platforms - though it probably would have steadfastly denied that plan a year ago, it's becoming very apparent that DaimlerChrysler has accepted the fact that platform sharing is going to be inevitable to reduce costs and stay in the game.

In that sense, what was "Mopar" is here and now - but it won't be tomorrow.

It'll be interesting to see how the designs of tomorrow differ from those of today - and it's a very rocky course that DaimlerChrysler has ahead of it, because the competition from Toyota and GM will grow stronger every day.

I just read an article about Toyota's plans for a Mexican assembly plant, which noted this: Toyota and DaimlerChrysler are separated by only 500,000 units a year now. All it would take is one more Toyota plant beyond that one, or one closed Chrysler plant, to close that gap.

And if it escaped notice, Toyota is planning an expansion of its Princeton, Indiana plant (where the Sequoia and Tundra are built) to produce Sienna minivans - so Chrysler Group's lead in minivans will erode still further in the next couple of years.

There's not much certain in these ecnonomic times - but this much is: Toyota has a laser sight set on DaimlerChrysler, and the next generation of Sienna will be one of the biggest salvos it has shot in that direction. Being able to back it up with a 250,000 per year production capacity won't make the going any easier for DaimlerChrysler.

4aodge · January 2002

I don't know how realistic such a dismal future such as the one eneth has described will come to pass for Chrysler. We will see what happens over the next few years. There are still some markets where Chrysler is still doing rather well.

Of course, Chrysler still has the lead in the minivan market. The Town & Country has seen a huge sales increase over the years and outsells Honda Odyssey. The Dodge Caravan, despite a steep fall in sales, is still the best selling minivan by a huge margin.

The PT Cruiser is still a hot car even after being on the market for over 2 years and price gouging is still going on at certain dealerships. Also, the new RAM 1500 has been redesigned and is sure to put a larger dent in the truck sales of GM, Ford, and Toyota.

The line of Sebring convertables/sedans/coupes are doing alot better now than they were under the Cirrus and Stratus names. The Sebring convertable is still one of the most popular drop-tops in the country.

Jeep has been doing pretty well, especially with the new Liberty. The Jeep Grand Cherokee is the #2 best selling SUV in the country, right behind the Ford Explorer.

So, not all is bad in the land of Chrysler. While it will most likey get worse before it gets better, there is still a light at the end of the tunel that gets closer everday. Only time will tell...

eneth · January 2002

I'm not so sure the picture is that rosy. The Chrysler Voyager hasn't picked up where the Plymouth left off - lost sales. The Neon is selling poorly and the PT Cruiser, after an initial burst of interest, has started to trail off (you can now buy one easily just about anywhere, and I believe you'll find that it has not met with sales success in Europe - DaimlerChrysler suspended production plans at the Eurostar plant in Austria, because it couldn't justify the extra capacity - that's a long way from a year ago when demand outstripped supply).

The Sebring convertible is a niche car and won't carry the day - sales numbers are too small.

The Liberty has come under fire for early recalls that should have been fixed before production began, and is under fire from a couple of testing organizations for its tendency to roll over in sharp maneuvers - not an auspicious beginning for a new model, given that Jeep has been hurt by that problem before (with the CJ-5).

Yes, the Grand Cherokee still sells well - at heavy discounts.

About the best DaimlerChrysler can hope for with the new Ram is to regain what it lost in the last couple of model years - the real action in trucks is now focused on GM, which may wrest best-seller status from Ford for the first time in 20+ years. Remember that Chrysler Group is closing one of the two main production plants (Mexico) that makes the Ram - so supply won't be as plentiful as it was before (and they must know that, or they'd not have slated the plant for closure).

Chrysler Group isn't taking anything away from Toyota - as I recall, Chrysler's sales were down about 9% overall for 2001 - and Toyota's were up about 7-8%, and in all categories.

What Chrysler needs is a smash-hit, home-run vehicle to build some momentum. For a while, that looked like it was to be the PT Cruiser - but it's not showing much staying power (and isn't all that profitable for the company anyway, since it's at heart a small car). The 2001 vans _should_ have been a that smash-hit home run - but they're not; it's taken expensive rebates and low interest financing to get people to buy them at all - while Honda hasn't had to resort to that with the Odyssey.

Chrysler has binned production plans for several new models because of production costs and is banking its sedan business on an automaker that isn't particularly strong (Mitsubishi). A resurgent Nissan won't make the recovery of that automaker any easier.

Chrysler Group is still stuck with a product mix that is too dependent on trucks (so is Ford) - that market is more volatile than one with a broader product mix, such as is offered by GM. GM will only get stronger in the car business as the new Delta and Epsilon projects come online in Europe, Asia and in the U.S. - and GM's alliances with complementary automakers (Fuji, Honda, Suzuki, FIAT) will only make the going even tougher in the next five years.

It would surprise me not at all to see that within the next five to ten years, most of Chrysler Group's cars disappear, leaving the trucks, vans and Jeeps - and DaimlerChrysler to focus on its Korean partner (Hyundai) for production of bread-and-butter cars and trucks, perhaps in combination with Mitsubishi.

Chrysler is by no means done downsizing itself.

dmathews3 · January 2002

The DC story is quite sad according to NBC news this evening. They say it looks like DC will lose 4 to 5 billion, Ford 2 billion, and GM will make a little bit. Not a great outlook for the country, as when the big 3 bleed, everyone bleeds.

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