Older Acura TLs

exb0 · October 2003

Be careful, DVD-Audio could be the BETAMAX of tomorrow. Currently there are two competing multi -channel formats: DVD-Audio and SACD (well, three if you count DTS, but all the DVD players play DTS disks). Who will win this format war is anybodys guess. Now, there are twice as many SACD titles as there are DVD-Audio. In my opinion, future players will have both decoders in them and your nifty new toy will be outdated (just like my home DVD-Audio player

.

bodble2 · October 2003

'cause I just spent big bucks for the spiffy Panasonic phone with the built-in digital camera. So I don't think I want to ditch it anytime soon for a Bluetooth capable phone.

pg48477 · October 2003

Does anybody know 0-60 MPH for 2004TL?

Normaly RWD handles better than FWD, but we are talking about two different cars. I don't think there is enough reviews to tell that G35 is a better handling car that TL.

pg48477 · October 2003

I have 2002 TL S, when I got it was pretty quick ride, but after I changed trany about 4 months ago It feels like my father's 2000 Maxima. Anybody else experienced similar problem?

gregory28 · October 2003

6.0 for a 6 speed, slightly slower for the automatic.

kahunah · October 2003

In their October issue, Car and Driver reported 6.0 sec for the TL 6MT, and 5.9 sec for the G35 6MT. P r e t t y closed considering the difference in their drive trains.

kahunah · October 2003

Navigation equipped TLs have been available in Canada since 1999. Mapping for Canada has greatly improved since then but it's not as good as the US counter part.

I'm more concerned about the availability of the Dynamic Package equipped TLs. I predict that those 1000 6-Speeds will fly out of the show rooms and sell out by late Spring early Summer 2004, and there won't be any deals offered. After that, it's a long wait for a production ordered car.

magictim · October 2003

I need some opinions, advice and help in deciding which car to buy. Here is my story. I'm 42 years old, male and I've decided it is time to buy a really nice car. I have always been very practical when it comes to cars (Toyotas and Fords). I keep my cars for eight or more years. Right now for my business and personal use I drive a 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan.

My wife drives a 2001 Lexus ES. It is a wonderful car.

I decided that 2004 is the time for me to get a nice car so I saved up $35k. Here's my dilemma.

All my life I always wanted a Jaguar. I love the styling of the 2004 Jaguar X-type 3.0. I have rented Jaguars in the past and I must say you definitely get the VIP treatment when you pull up in a Jaguar. I like the X-Type because it is unique. You don't see too many on the road.
I was all set to buy a 2004 X-Type 3.0 and BAM, along comes the Acura 2004 TL.

I have never been a fan of the styling of the Acura in the past but the 2004 model is fairly sporty (It looks like a BMW 5 Series).

I want a manual transmission with the navigation system. The technology and features on the 2004 Acura TL blew me away. The Acura TL will probably come in around $34,000, the Jaguar X-Type 3.0 will probably come in around $38,000 but I think you could probably get a deal for around $35,000 because of low demand. The Jaguar with a 5 speed manual transmission is not easy to come by.

Here's what I love about the Jaguar: Styling, AWD, the prestige, folding real seats, hood ornament and leather and wood interior. Here are my concerns about the Jaguar: price, build quality, reliability, and availability of parts.

Here is what I like about the Acura TL: the price, the features, the technology, the horsepower, 6 speed manual transmission, the many standard features. My concerns are as follows: Looks and Im not sure you will get the same VIP treatment with the Acura as with the Jaguar.

Edmunds really likes the Acura TL and is lukewarm about the Jaguar X-Type. I think the looks of the TL are pretty good but the Jaguar looks really unique. The Jaguar makes my heart beat skip (Pure emotional appeal) but I want a car that is sporty, fun to drive, super reliable, super safe, practical, luxurious and reasonably priced. I know that I'm asking for a lot but for me $35K is a lot of money, so I want to make the best decision possible. My wifes Lexus ES is the perfect car, it is not very sporty but it really excels in every other area. The build quality of her car is outstanding.

I dont want to spend more than $34,500 for my dream car (With sales taxes and other expenses added to this 35K number, I'm well into the high 30's, my goal was to stay in the low 30's). Please help me by sharing your thoughts and opinions on the two cars that I mentioned above. What car would you buy and why? What are your thoughts about Jaguar and Acura?
When should I buy my car to get the best deal?
Thanks.

magictim · October 2003

I need some opinions, advice and help in deciding which car to buy. Here is my story. I'm 42 years old, male and I've decided it is time to buy a really nice car. I have always been very practical when it comes to cars (Toyotas and Fords). I keep my cars for eight or more years. Right now for my business and personal use I drive a 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan.

My wife drives a 2001 Lexus ES. It is a wonderful car.

I decided that 2004 is the time for me to get a nice car so I saved up $35k. Here's my dilemma.

All my life I always wanted a Jaguar. I love the styling of the 2004 Jaguar X-type 3.0. I have rented Jaguars in the past and I must say you definitely get the VIP treatment when you pull up in a Jaguar. I like the X-Type because it is unique. You don't see too many on the road.
I was all set to buy a 2004 X-Type 3.0 and BAM, along comes the Acura 2004 TL.

I have never been a fan of the styling of the Acura in the past but the 2004 model is fairly sporty (It looks like a BMW 5 Series).

I want a manual transmission with the navigation system. The technology and features on the 2004 Acura TL blew me away. The Acura TL will probably come in around $34,000, the Jaguar X-Type 3.0 will probably come in around $38,000 but I think you could probably get a deal for around $35,000 because of low demand. The Jaguar with a 5 speed manual transmission is not easy to come by.

Here's what I love about the Jaguar: Styling, AWD, the prestige, folding real seats, hood ornament and leather and wood interior. Here are my concerns about the Jaguar: price, build quality, reliability, and availability of parts.

Here is what I like about the Acura TL: the price, the features, the technology, the horsepower, 6 speed manual transmission, the many standard features. My concerns are as follows: Looks and Im not sure you will get the same VIP treatment with the Acura as with the Jaguar.

Edmunds really likes the Acura TL and is lukewarm about the Jaguar X-Type. I think the looks of the TL are pretty good but the Jaguar looks really unique. The Jaguar makes my heart beat skip (Pure emotional appeal) but I want a car that is sporty, fun to drive, super reliable, super safe, practical, luxurious and reasonably priced. I know that I'm asking for a lot but for me $35K is a lot of money, so I want to make the best decision possible. My wifes Lexus ES is the perfect car, it is not very sporty but it really excels in every other area. The build quality of her car is outstanding.

I dont want to spend more than $34,500 for my dream car (With sales taxes and other expenses added to this 35K number, I'm well into the high 30's, my goal was to stay in the low 30's). Please help me by sharing your thoughts and opinions on the two cars that I mentioned above. What car would you buy and why? What are your thoughts about Jaguar and Acura?
When should I buy my car to get the best deal?
Thanks.

mdhauke · October 2003

If it's prestige and VIP treatment your going for definitely go with the Jag. If it's spottiness and a car that almost has every option out there in it's standard package go with the TL. All the vehicles in the TL's class start out at the same price, low to mid 30's, for the standard model. However, when you start adding options to the others they quickly escalate into the upper 30's, even low 40's. With the TL, it already has all the options nay the Nav system. So when you max out the TL your talking about 36 tops. But what you lose is some of the prestige. People see the TL out on the road won't recognize it as a luxury Sudan like they will with a Lexus or a Jag. Heck, before I started researching entry-level sedans in the past couple months I didn't even know Acura was one of them. When I saw the TL on the street I though it was just another car. But when I saw a Lexus, Infinity, Jag, or BMW I knew right away what they stand for. However I am still going to get a TL. The features and options can't be beat at it's price. Sure it has front wheel drive but I plan to drive the vehicle in some snow and I don't want to have to worry about spinning out. I will gladly sacrifice some performance for the better handling in adverse conditions it will provide. I am also more conservative in nature. Having a Lexus or a Jag at my age (30) people will think that I am trying to compensate for something (going bald already

( )or trying to show off. With a TL, it looks great and stands out, but not as much as the others.

Well those are my thoughts, but that is tailored to my lifestyle. Everybodys is different and what may be right for me might not be right for you.

Good Luck

mmm17 · October 2003

After reading your posting, I think you should buy the Jag. If you rented Jags before & it seems like it is something you've always wanted I wouldn't not get it now. I just took delivery last night of my 2004 Acura TL w/nav and love it. I did drive the X-Type and found it to be very nice also regardless of the so-so reviews. One thing, I live in the Boston area and the X-Type is almost as popular as Hinda Civics around here. Must be the all wheel drive in the New England winters. The all wheel drive was the main reason I was thinking of purchasing the car. I think either car willl be good but it sounds like you've been dreaming of the Jag.

kahunah · October 2003

magictim - This might help your decision making.

Consumer Reports writes: "The X-Type is Jaguar's entry model and the second one to be developed on a Ford platform. All-wheel drive is standard. The uplevel 3.0-liter V6 is a lively performer, and the automatic shifts smoothly. Handling is fairly nimble and forgiving when pushed to its tire-adhesion limits. The ride is supple. The cabin is a bit tight, road noise is pronounced, and fit and finish fall a little short of luxury-car expectations. Overall, the car isn't as well rounded as such competitors as the Audi A4, BMW 3-Series, and Mercedes-Benz C-Class, even though it's just as expensive. In addition, first-year reliability has been much worse than average."

Based on this review, I know what my choice would be...TL all the way!

tedescm1 · October 2003

I could not have written your posting any better...i concur! I'll get the Lexus when I’m on Medicare.

stickguy · October 2003

As Terry says, "always buy and drive what you like".

of course, some cynics would say you get the VIP treatment at Jaguar because you will become close personal friends with the service folks. Acura dealers seem to have a mixed reputation, but I know the ones by me give high quality treatment, loaner cars, etc.

The TL at MSRP w/nav will be $35,150 IIRC. I bet that sticker on a comparably loaded X type with Nav will run up towards $45K if you get all the bells and whistles, but I have no idea what a real sales price will be. But, like Tim said, good luck finding that car in a stick.

midnightcowboy · October 2003

I went to a TL inaugral party and one of the cars had optional 18" wheels that looked really sharp. The Acura people could tell me what I wanted to know, if these wheels came with the HPT upgrade or were they a separate cost. The are not chrome but more of a polished platinum , more slender 5 spoke and really sharp.

They did check and told me the A-spec package on the automatics DID NOT include the Brembo front brake upgrade. That would be a separate purchase item.

They were really pushing and wanted a deposit right then and there. Wouldn't budge of MSRP but would throw in the wheel locks, cargo tray , mud flaps, etc. .... I sense the price will be below MSRP very soon. I'm waiting.

rayainsw · October 2003

OK - I was across the street from the dealer again this morning. I took just enough time to verify that the 6-speed TL is still there. I made note of the plate and the VIN:
Plate: Calif. DST 3421 19G
(Distributor, I'd guess)
VIN ending in: 000160
Early build?
It was still backed up next to the service area.
Perhaps it is for service training?
Anyway - it is there . . .
- Ray
Who can no longer deal with a clutch in regular driving, so is not really interested personally . . .

jmichaelp · October 2003

midnight, where are you located? There was a TL party here last night & my dealer has given me the about same deal i.e. wheel locks, cargo tray , mud flaps, etc. and also said they wouldn't budge on MSRP.
The dealer also told me that they've received deposits on the last two they have coming in November. These two were available on 10/22 & when I decided to put a deposit down on 10/24 they were already taken.
I'm now either going to put off buying, buy from another state or buy another model.

midnightcowboy · October 2003

kahunah · October 2003

I just spoke to my dealer to schedule my next test drive with a 6MT model. He says (and he's a good guy, so I mostly believe him) their next delivery of TLs is on route and they are all sold, except for one White 6MT that they're using as the demo model. I'm just glad I'm on the waiting list.

mhewitt · October 2003

I've had the same experience re the TL. I wanted a specific color combination and after listening to the sale manager and reading comments here at Edmunds I had a gut feeling that I better put one on hold because I'd made up my mind to buy, my lease had only a month or so left on it, and my color combination wasn't all that popular. He also threw in a lot of cheap acessories so I feel ok because I like the car so much--would never do it for a ES 330 even though its not bad.

jmichaelp · October 2003

My dealer sent another email stating that he could get a white 6-spd on a dealer swap and had a black on black w/ performance wheels that he had forgotten about. Unfortunately, neither white exterior or black interior are high on my color list...

midnight - I'm in the Carolinas, so it looks like dealers nationwide are willing to give at least a little bit.

I hope they sell a lot & over-produce so that they have to sell them at less than MSRP in the future!

danog · October 2003

"I have 2002 TL S, when I got it was pretty quick ride, but after I changed tranny about 4 months ago It feels like my father's 2000 Maxima. Anybody else experienced similar problem? "

I haven't noticed this with our replacment. I did think there was a gearing change as I noticed my RPMs appear different but I can't verify. Only gas mileage will help me here if it doesn't change.

eddiemac · October 2003

Buy the TL. You said that you want a car that is sporty, fun to drive, and reliable, but then you say that the you are concerned about the the jag's reliability. I think the jag is a pretty, car, but I am more focused on reliability than looks. If I am buying a car(I have a 2002 tl-s w/nav), especially one over 30k, I do not want to spend a lot of time at the service dept. You may get VIP treatment at the Jaguar dealer, but if you are spending a lot of time there then that means your car needs repairs. How much does scheduled maintenance cost at the Jag dealer versus the Acura dealer? My service dept. may not be VIP, but, they get the job done right, the prices are reasonable, and the waiting area is comfortable. I know you said that you like the Jaguar for emotional reasons, but how much is that emotion going to cost you in the long run in actual dollars?

Before you make a final decision, check the Jaguar board to see how other owners feel about the vehicle that you like. Ask them to describe any problems and the costs involved to fix them, then make your decision.

stickguy · October 2003

I happened to stop at the deal this week, and they had one on the floor with the wheels added. IIRC, the extra options sticker price was $1,600 or 1,800, but since it wasn't on the real sticker, it could have been anything they wanted, so YMMV

Also, when were those 6 speeds supposed to arrive? That's one of 2 cars left on my short list to drive before I (hopefully) make up my mind.

1violinist · October 2003

I visited Acura dealer in Cerritos, CA and saw 8 different cars! Some of the colors combinations that I haven't seen before:

Red/parchment: bright and cheerful combo. The red is like "light red wine", sporty and attractive, and goes very well w/parchment.

Desert Mist/parchment: harmonious combo. The exterior and interior colors blend in completely. Not very noticable on the other hand. I also saw Deser Mist w/ebony, but the contrast is a bit too much for my taste.

Black/camel: Camel is on the dark orangy side, doesn't go well with wood. Black can come with any of the 4 interiors; So far it seems Camel is the least popular.

Black/quartz: a winner, if you can live with black as high maintenace exterior! I prefer this combo to Black/ebony, becasue the gray interior complements the black dash, the aluminum trim and the carbon-fiber wood.

Deep Green/parchment: a decent combo. The Deep Green is very elegant, not very common. It goes very well w/parchment.

Well, between a couple of dealers in my area I have by now seen ALL color combinations, if anyone has a question :-)

king_george · October 2003

what do u think of pearl white with quartz interior?

&

satin silver with ebony or quartz interior?

midnightcowboy · October 2003

Saw a Nighthawk Black Pearl/ ebony. I think it is the best color combo if you can stand keeping the exterior clean.

The 18" alloy wheels look very good , they should for $1516

Also an Black/camel not as good.

Anthracite/black - looked good.

================
If you get the parchiamt or camel interior with the fake wood grain you also get some aluminum trim. It is okay , but it just doesn't go together that well.

Silver/black - second best.

ruski · October 2003

when they replace the tranny they also replace the PCM, this procedure is designed to reduce the engine power. That's their "fix" for the tranny problem.

ruski · October 2003

you mean Ford Contour?

king_george · October 2003

sweet black TL with body kit and full spoiler

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?...613&mode=invite

hydra2 · October 2003

Tough call. Sounds like you've sold yourself on the Jag. If so, go for it and recognize that like any car you might have to take a few lumps. It is unique, with a nice interior though rather noisy and cramped.

Before you decide, check out the total cost of ownership here on Edmunds. The depreciation hit on the Jag will probably be worse than th tl. Also, take a few more test drives in both cars back to back. If you like your wife's lexus, you may find the noise level of the Jag unbearable after owning it for a while. The tl is faster, more modern, quieter (but sportier and maybe not as quiet with the optional wheels), more reliable and probably cheaper to maintain longterm than the Jag.

Happy hunting.

1violinist · October 2003

White Diamond Pearl w/Quratz: the contrast between the white exerior and the dark interior didn't feel comfortable. I would go with parchment; it's smoother and brighter. Still, some people don't like the parchment with black dash, aluminum trim and fake wood!

Satin Silver w/Ebony: Nice contrast between the light exterior and the dark interior. Seems to be the common combo. Downside, ebony interior gets very hot if you live in a warm area.

Satin Silver w/Quartz: Nice blend! The gray leather complements the black dash, aluminum trim and carbon-fiber wood. I liked it!

Hope Your Royal Highness find the right combination... let us know! :-)

1violinist · October 2003

I thought I should bring this up again. I heard from a couple of people who tested TL w/Navigation. They say the NAV screen is a bit "fuzzy" in comparison to previous version and/or other NAV systems. One of them was told by the dealer that it is because Acura increased the size of the screen from 6 to 8 inches without adjusting the resolution, and by doing so they "stretched" the image by 33%.

I work with computers and know that this should be a simple problem to fix by Acura. Anyone seen the NAV or heard similar comments?

cooldad24 · October 2003

It's all up to you. Do you care how the car looks more than how it drive and serves? Go for Jag. Or prestige is most you need, also go to Jag for its elegant and nice materials internal design. If overall value and performance is high for your need, it's hard to beat the new TL. You want to enjoy the car 360 days a year exclude regular mainteinance? Acura has reputation to be reliable. There is no best of perfect car for anyone. You need to sort your priority. Without knowing your style and preference on things, I am afraid that no noe can make decision for you. There always sacrify to make unfortunitely.

stickguy · October 2003

having seen it in the showroom and outside at night, I find the deep green pearl (I get that right) to be very attractive. If I go with a TL, it will be that color.

Still haven't seen a camal interior in person. The salesguy said it was striking, and I would like something darker than parchmant, so I might have to make another trip to see it in person. It will give me an excuse to stop in again, before the 6 speeds arrive.

cooldad24 · October 2003

And Honda accord?

cooldad24 · October 2003

I remember 2 years ago, when I saw the 40' plasma TV, I said to myself "wow, what a beaty. I want one. But 10 grands? Just wait it drop the price. Now, 42" drop to 5-6 thousand up to 80K. I didn't buy it. Why? There are 46, 50" just came out near 10 grands (a tad below} with more features and sleeker. So I think: Maybe I should wait one more year to buy so 60K I can get a 50" one instead of 42". Sounds familiar? Of cause. Today's hot stuff will be cold feet next year when new iteration debut. It you keep chasing the down swin of price, it's right at falling at competition.

For example the Honda Odyssey, it's sold when it arrives at the dealership at close or more than MSRP since 1999 until this year. Now you can get 1500 to 2000 off MSRP due to better successors from Toyota and Nissan. A friend of mine looking for Odyssey 1999. He refused to pay MSRP and insist to wait one more year when price went down. Now, he haven't buy anything yet. Why? HE finally can buy Odyssey below MSRP but he likes the toyota better. In CA, Sienna sold at MSRP or higher. One dealer they cut $500 off but force to accept anything they installed on the vehicle. He refuse and insist to wait one more year when th epice came down. Since 1999, he rent minivan 5 times and borrow mine countless time. He is my good friend so I don't mind. This just tell you how rediculious to insist to pay less than MSRP at times. More than once he regret to skip to pay MSRP in 1999. Fromm 2000-2002 he have to pay 500-2000 mark up to get one in SF bay area. Crazy isn't it? Maybe he will never get a new minivan and buy something else. He is so stubborn to change his thought. I strongly agree who suggest look what you pay not how much below MSRP. If it represent good value and worth the price, then just buy.

achadha · October 2003

Anyone test drive a 6speed TL? I am wondering how they drive? I went to a dealer here in northern virginia and they told me they were not getting any 6speeds til december. They had about 12 TL's on the lot that i could see, on the website it says they have 29? I did see a sweet black TL with the spoiler and the 18inch wheels boy did it look hot. I currently am driving a 03 6speed Maxima SE which I love. My only complaints are the torque steer and the terrible stock tires. When I saw the TL it blew me away. My friend has an 03 TL and 01 CL both type S. I did not really like either of the interiors at all. I think the interior on the 04 is what is drawing me to the TL. Anyone know of 0-60 times on the 6speed and auto? Thanks

automophile · October 2003

cooldad had a good point - If you keep waiting, you may never buy anything, and meanwhile you are forced to settle with what you've got. You must accept that there will ALWAYS be something new coming.

Meanwhile, many of you are saying that you won't buy until you get some significant discount. There is only $2400 gross profit in the car, and some of the Acuras have gone a year before discounting. And then how much will they discount it - $1000? SO - you want to wait another year without owning this fabulous car to save 3% on the price?

Doesn't make sense to me. It seems that perhaps you really aren't ready to buy a new car?

Someone earlier mentioned that the idea is to pay what you feel the car is WORTH. Drive a 5 Series, and then drive the TL - The TL will quickly feel that it is WORTH $40K+. THEN when you find you only have to pay $33K, it is a bargain!

I hope to have mine within a month. I have someone interested in buying my leased car, so perhaps I won't have to wait for the lease to run out.

danog · October 2003

Will you elaborate a little on the PCM replacement? This isn't listed on the paperwork I have for all of my tranny's that have been replaced. And I haven't noticed a lack of power or performance.
This is the first I seen a PCM mentioned.

Thanks,
Dano

gregory28 · October 2003

Achada:

0-60 is estimated at 6.0 seconds with the 6MT, slightly slower with the automatic.

gregory28 · October 2003

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article- - _id=- - - 7062&page_number=1

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_- - - - - id=830

The most complete and comprehensive report I've read on the car was the first one I read; the one right here in Edmunds.

kahunah · October 2003

Guys, please test your links before you post them. If they don't work or if a login is required to open them, your messages will be deleted by the Board Host.

This article is not bad either: http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6501

pg48477 · October 2003

I don't know about PCM, but tranny has been redesign and I thought that was the reason. For 2002 TLS 0-60 in Car and Driver listed as 6.2 and for 2003 7.0.

uncledavid · October 2003

Trust me. The screen is not "fuzzy" at all. The screen is larger so the pixels are slightly further apart. So, some people have difficulty getting used to it, if they're used to the smaller screen. But, the screen is clear as can be.

The Honda Accord and TSX have similar systems. I own a TSX and test drove the Accord. The graphics are very high in quality and it is a wonderful system overall.

A few folk who switch from the past generation of TL/CL to the TSX also complained that the TSX's screen was "fuzzy." I never knew what that was about. The screen is very easy to read.

mdhauke · October 2003

Just went over to take a look at the ES330 message board and couldnt believe how dismal and depressing it was compared to the TLs. That alone makes me want to purchase a 04 TL

rayainsw · October 2003

In the Letters (Back Fires) section of C&D p. 15 January 2003 they acknowledge that the times published in the comparison test in their Oct. 2002 issue were clearly too slow for some of the tested vehicles, compares with previous examples. They speculate that the local gas station where they filed before the test did not provide the promised octane  caused some engines to retard timing and cut power.

I tend to believe the previous test numbers (0-60 at 6.2 and quarter in 14.8 at 96) as they compare well with other published test numbers. Even Consumer Reports recorded a 0-60 of 6.6 and a quarter mile time of 15.2  MUCH better than the 0-60 of 7.6 and quarter of 16.0 at 88 published in the C&D comparo.

- Ray

Who was surprised and confused at these numbers when initially published . . .

mrtech · October 2003

The cars.com invoice is $500 less than the invoice price listed on Edmunds. Kelly Blue Book does not show the invoice as of yet. Lowest online quote I got is $150 under MSRP.

golfgod2k3 · October 2003

I don't think the 18" wheels offer a big aesthetic improvement over the standard 17", however, I do want a performance tire. Does anyone know if dealers will upgrade the tires on the standard wheels? Seems like just putting new tires on is a cheaper way to get the performance I'd be looking for.

tblazer503 · October 2003

Is that there are TONS of cars out there for that price range. =o)

Have you checked out the S60R, ES330, IS300, GS300(too much $$), G35.... =o)

If is between the TL and the Jag, however, I would probably go with the TL(did ya know you can roll up/down windows and control the moonroof with the remote?) at least that's what I hear... =o) lotsa cool toys, keeps value, etc.

Although I really like the Lexus ES330(not all that sporty) and have a knack for the G35 for the same price range... =o)

Older Acura TLs

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