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Older Acura TLs

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  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Had been considering the purchase of an '05 TL but have to admit that all this talk and history of transmission problems, driveline vibration, etc. has me spooked. I gather the problem has not been fixed for the '05 model year but does anyone know for sure? Comments anyone?

    But, my o my, that sure is a fine audio system . . . !
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    There appears to be a lot of mystery as to what the actual facts are regarding Honda/Acura automatic transmssions. "Early build" 2004 model TLs were indeed recalled - a friend of ours has one they bought last November and it went back to the dealership. What constitutes "early build" and what did Acura presumably do mid year to correct the probelm at its root?? The MDX got an entirely new transmission for 2004, or did it? The "fix" is just a lubrication system for an otherwise flawed design that will eventually fail before it should, or is it??

    My point is that, for Honda/Acura, the fact that reasonably educated posters in this forum don't know what the hell the actual, fact based, full story is, THAT'S A PROBLEM.

    It's one thing for me to speculate about buying a Land Rover LR3 and wondering what might go wrong with it. But, damn it, if I'm going to buy an Acura MDX or TL with and automatic transmission, and the problem has been out in public since about 1999/2000, I should be able to buy in 2004/5 with complete confidence and knowledge that Honda has addressed the problem. And Honda should put the entire story in black and white so as to be completely clear as to what was the probelm and how it was fixed. Loyal Handa/Acura owners shouldn't need to use Google trying to figure out what is really going on.

    I have purchased no fewer than 5 new Hondas/Acuras in the past, all with manual transmissions (Civic, Integra, Legend GS, S2000, TL). My friendly Acura service manager, former owner of a 225,000 miles Legend GS 6-speed, privately admits that he would not buy an automatic TL or pre-2004 MDX for his own family.

    I am venting, not really looking for a response. But for a company that gets it right about 99% of the time, the automatic transmission mystery has been the most poorly handled matter I have ever seen. It's downright Ford like.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    thanks much, maldorf....

    you have been a great help...

    I like the TL....mind you...and feel sorry that Honda / Acura , with its great reputation, has to go thru this. I understand its a honest mistake/problem .

    I hope this issue gets resolved without stiffing the consumers...

    I have not gotten my recall notice yet....since it is so new a car....
  • igibanigiban Posts: 530
    My friend's TL (AT) was purchased in 5/04 and Acura told them that there's no recall for theirs. At least that means that the recall is indeed only for 'early' TL of 04's. Now does that mean TL now does not have the problem, or at the minimum have the patch applied already b4 it's shipped?
  • You need not to look any further than at the NHTA Office of Defects Investigation to see in fact the 2004 TL has been recalled for a Component: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION.

    Make : ACURA Model : 3.2TL Year : 2004
    Manufacturer : AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
    NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V176000 Recall Date : APR 13, 2004
    Component: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
    Potential Number Of Units Affected : 1099796
    Summary:
    ON SOME MINI VANS, SPORT UTILITY AND PASSENGER VEHICLES, CERTAIN OPERATING CONDITIONS CAN RESULT IN HEAT BUILD-UP BETWEEN THE COUNTERSHAFT AND SECONDARY SHAFT SECOND GEARS IN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, EVENTUALLY LEADING TO GEAR TOOTH CHIPPING OR GEAR BREAKAGE.
    Consequence:
    GEAR FAILURE COULD RESULT IN TRANSMISSION LOCKUP, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.
    Remedy:
    ON VEHICLES WITH 15,000 MILES OR LESS, THE DEALER WILL UPDATE THE TRANSMISSION WITH A SIMPLE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE TO INCREASE LUBRICATION TO THE SECOND GEAR. ON VEHICLES WITH MORE THAN 15,000 MILES, THE DEALER WILL INSPECT THE TRANSMISSION TO IDENTIFY GEARS THAT HAVE ALREADY EXPERIENCED DISCOLORATION DUE TO OVERHEATING. IF DISCOLORATION EXISTS, THE TRANSMISSION WILL BE REPLACED IF DISCOLORATION IS NOT PRESENT, THE DEALER WILL PERFORM THE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON APRIL 21, 2004, FOR PILOT, ODYSSEY, AND MDX OWNERS. OWNERS OF THE ACCORD VEHICLES WILL START RECEIVING LETTERS ON JUNE 28, 2004, AND ON JUNE 29, 2004, FOR OWNERS OF THE TL AND CL VEHICLES. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.
    Notes:
    HONDA RECALL NOS. P30 (ODYSSEY AND PILOT), P31 (MDX), P38 (ACCORD) AND P39 (ACURA). CUSTOMERS CAN ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION’S AUTO SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-DASH-2-DOT (1-888-327-4236).
  • I am not arguing about the recall for the earlier build. Its true for earlier build and like I said its OLD NEWS. Mine is not one of them. NO RECALL on mine

    If you read my post carefully, I said "COMPLAINT" not recall. Look under complaint.

    Even with the earlier build that was recalled, there is no evidence of complaint about transmission failure. At least no data on NHTSA for this 1 year and 2 months sedan. Becuz the company has responsed quickly after finding only 1 case and issued the recall.

    Some post complaining about transmission failure but none of them are from owner of 2004 TL, mostly from TL 99-2003 or people owning other brand. And again its about transmission failure, I'm fine with the recall, its about manufacturer's responsibility and quick response. Some manufacturer tried to delay/avoid to acknowledge that there is a defect and not willing to issue a recall. Even my 1997 Accord(147k miles) recently, still got a letter requesting me to replace ignition switch for free.

    Affected models include certain 2003 and early 2004 model Accord V6 sedans and coupes, 2000-2003 and early 2004 Acura TL sedans, and 2001-2003 Acura CL coupes. Quoted from article
  • G35 2004 has 3 cases of transmission, 2 with manual and 1 with auto. But no recall has been issued.
    G35 2004 NHTSA Complaint Number: 10098647
    TRANSMISSION MAKES CHATTERING NOISE AS THE ENGINE SHUTS DOWN (ONLY ABLE TO HEAR WHEN THE TRANSMISSION IS WARMED UP AND ONLY ABLE TO HEAR IT FROM OUTSIDE OR WITH THE DOOR OPEN.). TRANSMISSION WAS REPLACED BUT THE CHATTERING NOISE STILL EXISTS. I WAS TOLD THAT THE PROBLEM EXISTS INTERNALLY IN ALL 6 SPEED TRANNYS' AND THE PROBLEM CAN NOT BE ATTENDED TO UNLESS MORE PEOPLE COMPLAIN

    WAITING FOR A DISASTER?
  • webby1webby1 Posts: 209
    "330I 2004
    NHTSA Action Number: DP04001
    Summary:
    MS. CLAIRE M. TIEDER OF RESTON, VA
    requesting a defect investigation be conducted into delayed transmission engagement on model year 2004 BMW XI vehicles.
    BMW'S response to NHTSA'S information request indicated that certain BMW 3-SERIES Vehicles equipped with the GM5 Transmission may exhibited
    a forward 'PARK' TO 'DRIVE' engagement delay from 2 TO 30 seconds.
    However, the condition can occur only during a vehicle "COLD START," after the vehicle has been at rest fro more than eight hours.
    Drivers experiencing the delay have learned to take precautionary and compensatory measures.
    BWM will replace affected transmissions exhibiting the delay, after the condition has been verified, with an IMPROVED UNIT. "

    Before BMW knew the reason why, the fix was a new tranny....since then however they discovered that the problem was EGS Programing, Bulletin 27 07 03 and problem corrected.
  • What is the break in period and considerations for a 2005 tl?
  • We had a videographer film a short interview with me today. The lawyer that interviewed me is flying all over the country this week gathering video taped testimonies. They have also gathered written sworn testimonies from us all. He said that they will be meeting with Honda's Lawyers December the 20th. He felt like something would happen by mid to late January.
        He felt ,from his talks with the attorneys from Honda, that their side was well aware that there is a serious problem with this transmission. If something positive comes from this lawsuit he said that it will be an opt out class action. Honda will have to send out letters to all affected owners and unless they hear from you that you do not want to take part, you will benefit from the result. As far as what might come of this, who knows. It looks like perhaps an extended warranty of some sort, but this is all speculation at this time.
        This tranny problem has been out there since 99 at least, maybe even earlier. I owned an 88 legend and its transmission went out at 70k, a 99 TL its transmission went out at 38k, and I now own an 03 TL with just 15k on it and I am hoping it holds up. It is fine as of now. Guess I was a fool to buy that last TL after the first one broke down. Just like DANNY 1878 I had the wool pulled over my eyes and actually thought that Honda took care of the tranny problem. Worst of all, Honda claims that my car's transmission is fine because it was manufactured late enough in 03 that the problem was taken care of. Because of this it was not eligible for the extended warranty on the tranny they offered customers. This warranty lasts 7 years or 100k miles. Then they turn around and recall my transmission. Why would they recall a transmission that is not defective?? Sounds like I should be eligible for the extended warranty if they are going to acknowledge a problem by recalling it. No such luck.
         The lawyer let me know that there have been many owners that have had their vehicle's tranny go out just weeks after that recall work was done. It appears that the oil jet stirs up the metal shavings that can result from the 3rd gear clutch plate and this will make the 2nd gear bind and lock up/break. Yet Honda still continues to do this cheap fix. The real problem with the transmission has not been addressed. New cars being produced right now have the very same transmission, only difference being that the oil jet to the 2nd gear is installed at the factory.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Again maldorf, can you provide any actual figures or documentation that the 99 transmission is involved in the same way as the MYs following it? The transmission was completely changed in 2000, and during all this time, your issue is the only one I've heard about.

    The tranny troubles that started with the 2000 MY have been discussed at much length ever since then.

    In any case, I wish you luck.
  • I do not have any documentation handy. I am going by my experience with the transmission, and the fact that I have seen posts on the petition about others having the same issues on their 99s ( see the link I provided earlier for the petition). The lawyer also told me that Honda later offered owners of the 99 TL the extended warranty that other model years got earlier,but that really does not concern me since I got rid of that car long ago after the lease was up. I am concerned now about my 03. We are about to start trying to trade the car in, perhaps for another Audi. The lawyer did tell me he has been getting reports that some dealers are well aware of the transmission problem and are only offering trade-in values thousands of dollars below kelly bluebook. If nobody offers us much for trade-in, I guess we are stuck with it.
  • I just remembered another point that supports my claim on the 99 TL. At my dealership my car was one of the first to have the problem, but a couple months later many started to come in with the same transmission failure. This was the clutch plate problem, where it downshifts on its own. My car took nearly 2 months to get done, and others after me had similar problems since Honda could not come up with the replacement trannies fast enough to meet demand. The service manager confirmed the problem with the 99, and at that time told me it was fixed for 2000 since it was a revamped tranny!
        As far as I can see Honda never did a recall on the 99. The lawyer was saying that Honda would not own up to a problem with the clutch plate, but was admitting to a problem with the 2nd gear. Perhaps the 99s did not have the 2nd gear problem, and this is why it was not recalled?? They must have been getting enough trouble with the 99 though to offer that extended 7 yr 100k mile warranty though.
  • cartalkcartalk Posts: 134
    This may be somewhat related: The '99 Odysseys had their transmission warranty coverage extended to 7 years or 100,000 miles. This was the first year for the redesigned Odyssey and it has the 3.0 litre engine.

    BTW, the tranny on my '98 Accord V6 went out at about 98K and it was not under warranty.
  • lmacmillmacmil Posts: 1,756
    The problem with most class action suits is that the lawyers get most of the settlement and quite often the plaintiffs get far less than the class action suit would lead them to believe they "deserve."
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    habitat:

    agree with your sentiments. I like the TL...and selected it over the 330i, Audi A4, mercedes C class.....

    but if this has been out since 1999 or 2000, then the company should fix the problem with the supplier, let all know that its been fixed...and thus assuage the anger and uncertainty that many owners feel...

      It would seem like you made the right choice...and got the auto tranny....
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    I thought habitat got the 6-speed.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    thanks for the correction :-)

    I mean....of course...that habitat made the right choice , and got the 6 speed manual....and not the auto , like some of us did.

    I still like to drive the automatic....but both of us (wife and I) do drive manual...so it wasn;t because we did not know how to....]

    I just thought an auto transmission is a no brainer....

    maybe they would have problems with new hybrid tech...but surely not screw up an auto ??!!?

    oh well...besides that....all is within reason........I'm a patient guy ....
  • ACURA / NHTSA document
    Acura CLS 2000-2001
    AVG miles to failure = 12,970 miles, many at less than 6k miles

    Number of failures of ACURA CLS according its build month
    Jan 00 0 0.0%
    Feb 00 2 1.4%
    Mar 00 3 0.1%
    Apr 00 22 0.7%
    May 00 25 0.8%
    Jun 00 15 0.5%
    Jul 00 5 0.2%
    Aug 00 15 0.5%
    Sep 00 10 0.3%
    Oct 00 40 0.4%
    Nov 00 41 0.4%
    Dec 00 45 0.5%
    Jan 01 12 0.3%
    Feb 01 22 0.8%
    Mar 01 18 0.5%
    Apr 01 0 0.0%
    May 01 12 0.4%
    Jun 01 12 0.4%
    Jul 01 0 0.0%
    Aug 01 3 0.1%
    Sep 01 2 0.1%
    Oct 01 2 0.1%
    Nov 01 0 0.0%
    Dec 01 1 0.1%

    Page 489:
    See the page 486 title; this is for the TL and contains totals for codes by TL vehicle type. The Survey was done on vehicles sold by the end of AUG 2001 and the 3.2TL total was 14766 and 3.2TL Type-S was 15941
    TL 19
    TL NAVI 4
    TL TYPE-S 26
    TL TYPE-S NAVI 14 (failures)

    The extended warranty (7 years / 100k miles) applies to 2000-01 Honda Odyssey minivans; 2000-01 Honda Accord cars with automatic transmissions; 2000-01 Prelude; and 2000-03 Acura CL and TL cars. ( only 1.6% have had to have its transmission replaced )quoted from USA today.
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-09-20-honda-warranty_x.h- - tm

    No data found for TL 2004. If there is, we should be able to see/read/hear them because some tranny from previous model 2000-2002 failed at less than 1200 miles. I agree that this problem shouldnt have happened. But also not a single fact can back up the lawyer's claim (the 04). Hoping to catch more fish by stirring the pond?
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    my 2004 TL is driving fine, except for the veering to the right, and severe veer to right on braking.....

    do you think Honda and Acura will be forthcoming and stand behind thier product...??

    I hope so....
  • Why would Honda recall the early 04s if there was not a problem? There have also been documented cases of these 04s breaking down.
        I realize this is an Acura TL owners forum, but do not overlook the fact that failures are happening in all of hondas lineup including the accord and odyessy.
         Honda knew there was a problem with this transmission as early as 2000 or so, and chose to do nothing until last year with the extended warranty ( offered only on certain years). It was not until this year that they finally recalled the transmission. Honda's solution early on was to just put in a rebuilt transmission with the same faults in it, and hence people were going through as many as 4 transmissions. This latest "fix" they have is just a cheap patch to keep it running unitl the warranty runs out.
      Here is an example taken from the petition link that I posted here a page back or so :petition #2686. saundra Morton I will have had 2 transmissions put in my accura . The Accura dealership and customer service are refusing to pay for this 2nd one and the recall for these transmissions was just received a month and a half ago. I think something should be done with the honda customer service and dealers since you cannot get any results when they are at fault with these faulty transmissions. 2001 accura 3.2 tl
        How would you feel if your transmission went out and Honda refused to take care of it? We all risk running into this sooner or later.
  • Here is another example of Honda Engineering at its best:
    Recall #99V227000 - ACURA 3.5RL
    NHTSA Campaign Number: 99V227000
    Vehicle/Equipment Make: ACURA
    Vehicle/Equipment Model: 3.5RL
    Model Year, 9999 If Unknown Or N/A: 1999
    MFR Campaign Number: K68
    Component Description: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
    Manufacturer's Involved In The Recall: AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
    Begin Date Of Manufacturing: 19980824
    End Date Of Manufacturing: 19990629
    Vehicle, Equipment Or Tire Report: V
    Potential Number Of Units Affected: 96518
    Date Owner Notified By MFR: 19990830
    Recall Initiator (MFG/OVSC/ODI): MFR
    Manufacturer Responsible For Recall: AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
    Date Report Received By ODI: 19990830
    Date Added To File: 19990830
    Regulation Part Number:
    Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number:
    Defect Summary: VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES. A TRANSMISSION CASE BOLT CAN LOOSEN AND FALL OUT ALLOWING THE TRANSMISSION TO DISENGAGE FROM THE DIFFERENTIAL.
    Consequence Summary: THE VEHICLE COULD LOSE POWER TO THE DRIVE WHEELS WITHOUT WARNING. ALSO, SHIFTING THE TRANSMISSION INTO THE PARK POSITION WOULD NOT LOCK THE WHEELS, AND A PARKED VEHICLE COULD MOVE UNEXPECTEDLY IF THE PARKING BRAKE IS NOT SET.
    Corrective Summary: DEALERS WILL INSTALL A REDESIGNED BOLT.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Maldorf, I think we get the point that you are unhappy with what has happened to you and your TL. If you'd like to give us updates as your case progresses, we'd like to hear them, but it's not necessary to keep posting your displeasure over and over. The folks here have heard you and I'm sure they offer you their sympathies, but it's time to let this conversation move on now.

     

    Hope everything works out for you.
  • igibanigiban Posts: 530
    Ditto to Pat.

     

    But Maldorf also mentioned "There have also been documented cases of these 04s breaking down."

     

    That's new to me. I hope Maldorf can provide some 'document' here to back that up, if nothing, at least for his/her own credibility.
  • golfnut5golfnut5 Posts: 202
    Is premium fuel required in the 2005 TL or just recommended?
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Recommended
  • eddiemaceddiemac Posts: 141
    I received a post card from Acura last week thanking me for being a loyal customer. It went on to say that as a show of appreciation, they would be sending me a gift card which I could use on service, parts, accessories, it was up to me. I received the card two days ago, and to my surprise, it was for $100! Has anyone else received a card, and if so, for how much?
  • Well, the issue has been discussed more than enough I am sure. Later down the road when I hear from the lawyers I will give you a heads up as to what is going to happen. I stand nothing to gain in this suit, I was just asked to provide some testimony. I just wanted to help the legal team get their point accross. The 99 I had that broke down is long gone, turned it in after the lease was up. My main concern now is the resale value of my 03.

        It seems no matter how many people have their transmission break down, some people choose to not care as long as their car was manufactured after the transmission was "fixed".

    There really is not any point in me trying to find documentaion backing my claim about the 99. Fact is there was a problem, and continues to be one now for over 5 years.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    The debate about "can I get away with regular gas" has turned up in just about every forum I visit. A few of my oft repeated points.

     

    First: The distinction between "required" and "recommended" appears to be a dubious one at best. Some manufacturers use one term, others use another. I will double check my TL owners manual, but even if it says "recommended", I suspect they don't sell any cars where they then use the term "required". The reverse is probably true with BMW.

     

    Second: Is the idea of spending an extra 10-15 cents a gallon (5-7%) for premium in a $30k+ car with a 270 hp V-tech engine a hardship for anyone?? If so, buy a $20,000 car and have enough gas money left over for the rest of your life.

     

    Third: There is a substantial amount of anecdotal evidence that performance and gas mileage improves with a high tech engine designed to run on premium. Probably completely outweighing any apparant savings with cheaper gas. That was the case for my 1995 Maxima SE and I'm quite sure the 2004+ TL is at least as good at utilizing the higher octane gas to it's advantage.

     

    I jumped to a conclusion that the poster asking whether or not premium was required or recommended might be tempted to use regular if it was the latter. Go for it, if you chose. It's your car. Just don't lie when you go to sell it and someone smart enough to ask the question, does. I went so far as to keep gas receipts for my Honda S2000 and, sure enough, someone asked to see them.

     

    I'm all for prudence. Putting regular gas in a V-tech engine has a different definition in my book.
  • igibanigiban Posts: 530
    I am not saying there's no problem, esp. for those TL between 00 to 03. I just like you to show us the documented cases you mentoned about 04 TL 'breaking down'. Be specific. That'd be helpful in a court room too.
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