Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

lexusguy · May 2004

Either car should be a reliable, trouble free car, certainly worlds better than the VW. The Honda will be closer to the VW driving experience than the Camry though, and offers more hp. The Camry's (with the expection of the SE) 194hp 3.0L is very long in the tooth. The Solara convertible for this year is great though, Honda's got nothin like that.

alpha01 · May 2004

The Camry hasnt used the 192 hp version of the 3.0L V6 in over a year. That engine spec was phased out starting with January 2003 production. The version of that engine currently used is the VVTi engine, which offers a good deal more hp and torque than the 3.0L without.(In fact, it offers more torque at lower RPM than the Accord V6).

The Camry LE/XLE V6 is rated at 210hp at 5800 RPM and 220 foot-pounds at 4400 RPM.

Otherwise- I agree with snarks. Its hard to go wrong with either of these two, unless youre looking for "something different". Its a matter of preference.

lexusguy · May 2004

I stand corrected. Apparently the 3.0L has been updated to ES300 tune, makes sense since the ES is now 330. Also, I wouldnt count out Maxima. Nissan's hard-chargin' 3.5L has significantly more power than both Honda and Toyota, and after sitting in a 3.5SL at the NY auto show, its actually pretty nice inside.

alpha01 · May 2004

I dont count out the Maxima, although torque steer is a real issue even in automatic cars from what I understand, in FWD applications of the 3.5L VQ. Comparatively, Toyota's 3.3L offers 10 foot pounds less twist, but appears not to have torque steer in the ES and Camry SE V6. No offense, but both the Accord and Camry have better interiors at the 20K mark than does the Maxima, especially models with cloth seating, which is downright terrible. (The 2005 Altima is MUCH better in that respect.)

That said, I dont want to get a slap on the wrist... this is after all, an Accord v. Camry thread.

~alpha

lexusguy · May 2004

Yeah Im with ya, I really like most of Nissan's recent designs, until I see the inside. I'm hoping that now that Nissan has managed to grab 4.5 Billion in profits, they will see fit to hire an interior designer or two. Maybe steal one from Audi.

doctorrocket9 · June 2004

I really liked my 2001 EX V6 Accord because of its crisp handling, good acceleration, and the open feel of the outside world. The new Accord feels much more closed in, and I have to admit, this is important to me. I read up on the SE v6 Camry, shot requests for quotes via Edmunds, and got one response for the only one they had from one dealer, for invoice minus $1000 rebate.

My Accord needed brakes and tires for around $1500, and still had value in trade, so I figured now was a good time to look. I ended up buying the Camry, and I've had it one day.

First impressions...much more stylish than the 2001 Accord. The one available was silver with dark charcoal cloth interior...not as luxurious as Honda's leather. But I like the metal trim on the panel and doors on the SE.

Camry steering is looser, more Saab-like. I am suspending judgment to see if it grows on me, but for now, a negative point. In the Accord, I couldn't hear the stereo well due to acoustics and road noise, so the Camry sounds like a concert hall, another thing that is important to me. The Camry gives you more feel of the outside world than the new Accord, although a bit less than the old Accord. In the Camry the driver seems to be sitting a bit higher.

Acceleration is great in the new Camry. I detect a bit of hesitation between my first push on the pedal and the response. I think I will learn to work with this, but it remains to be seen. The best integration between driver impulse and response I ever had was, believe it or not, on a 96 T-bird with the 4.6 v8. Neither the Accord nor the Camry matches that (FWD may have something to do with it as well), and the Camry seems a hair less responsive than the Accord, but I suspend judgement for the moment. I'll report back in a few, after the new car smell wears off.

alpha01 · June 2004

"Acceleration is great in the new Camry. I detect a bit of hesitation between my first push on the pedal and the response."

The "hesitation" you are experiencing isnt really hesitation- its the fact that the throttle you depress with your foot is not mechanically linked to anything, as it was in your Thunderbird. Its all electronic, "drive by wire" technology.

Keep us posted!

lexusguy · June 2004

It just depends on what you're used to. I've driven the last generation Accord on occasion, and its gas pedal response was wierd to me. Extremely stiff, and just tapping it meant MOVE NOW. All of the Toyota products Ive driven over the years have had much smoother throttle response, where the real meat doesnt come on until the pedal is pushed a bit. This includes FWD, RWD, and AWD.

venus537 · June 2004

The Camry gives you more feel of the outside world than the new Accord

i thought that was one of the weak points of the camry - too much isolation.

alpha01 · June 2004

I think what he meant was that the Camry has a less-closed in feeling than the new Accord. Theres seemingly more glass area in the Camry, which affords a more panoramic view of the world around you. IMO, though, neither the Accord nor Camry excels in this area. I do know what doctorrocket speaks of though- when I drive the new Accord, positioned correctly, I feel great in the seat, and the controls (pedals, steering wheel) are also a good fit--- but the A pillar seems VERY close to me and somewhat blocks my vision.

Dynamically, theres no doubt that the Accord achieves a better sense of driver involvement (at the expense of ride tranquility, which is the Camrys strong suit, even in SE guise).

~alpha

venus537 · June 2004

thanks for the clarification. these cars may have less of a panoramic view from the past but they're much safer too.

doctorrocket9 · June 2004

Your explanation of what I was trying to say was right on. After another day of driving my SE, I find that I'm getting in tune with the steering and launch from a stop, and it's all good.

New problem emerged. After driving a few miles on the Mass Pike, I felt shaken, not stirred. The sport suspension sends you for a ride over every bump. Something I didn't notice in the test drive, even though I was on a back road and then a medium speed highway. While I was back at the dealer to get my inspection sticker, I compared it to the LE, which felt similar, but absorbed a bit more of the rough stuff. The SE is still much more stylish and I don't want an LE. I wonder if there's anything you can do to reduce the bouncing (something I didn't experience in the Accord). The ride on the highway reminds me more of a 1950's pickup truck than a sports car. As always, all opinions are subject to revision after I drive it some more.

kennyg5 · June 2004

Personally, I prefer more glass area because it gives me a better view. I don't know if the raised belt-line design increases safety, since it is (IMO) more of a design fad than anything. Also, I believe new cars have a more obstructed rear view, which I think decreases safety, particularly when you try to switch lanes.

venus537 · June 2004

true, that aspect of safety is compromised but the gains in safety from a side collision far more offsets that. it may be a designed fad for a car like the new 300 but i don't think so for cars like the accord and camry. personally i don't have any problems with visibility with my accord.

doctorrocket9 · June 2004

When I was back at the dealer the day after I bought it, I even asked the sales manager if I could give them the car back because of the rough ride. They said the car could only be sold as used, but they would try to make a trade in that would make sense financially, which is why I test drove an LE while I was waiting for my inspection sticker. As I said, I didn't like the LE at all, for all the reasons everyone ever says, a bit softer over the bumps, but pretty much the same ride, but squishier.

This weekend I drove to Connecticut...the Pike to 84, to 91 to the Wilbur Cross to the Merritt. The car rode much better. The road is better than what I drove on the first day, but the car seems to be breaking in as well. I'm thinking that whatever formaldahyde they dip new car tires into makes the ride rougher. I did notice that my new Camry handled the grooved pavement on the Pike construction better than my Accord did, presumably because of the Michelin touring tires.

On the plus side, or pulse side which I started to write, the nimble handling in traffic and exceptionally smooth and worthwhile acceleration in the 40-80 range, not that I admit to exceeding the speed limit, mind you, did at least remind me of the grin I get driving an Audi 2.7.

Also on the plus side the Camry SE sits in a slight prowling posture, and is definitely a looker. I did see old reliable Nellie, my 2001 Accord EX v6, on the dealer's lot, and almost felt a tear at having dumped her for a hot babe, but then, nah.

18fan · June 2004

Have you checked the air in your tires? Many times, cars at the dealership have overinflated tires since they tend to sit in one spot for long periods of time. Overinflation will cause a rougher ride, particularly over bumps, potholes, etc.

gregoryc1 · June 2004

Go with the 4 cylinder Accord. The Toyota vehicles have a sludge issue with their engines.

lexusguy · June 2004

What is this "sludge" issue? My wife's RX uses the 3.0L V6, which is based on the Camry engine. It has no "sledge" problems. In fact all of our Toyota engines have lasted 150K+ without an issue.

petl · June 2004

Toyota had a sludge problem with the 6 cyl. and only with a small percentage of vehicles. It took some time for Toyota to admit it (they claimed that it only affected owners who did not change the oil regularly). They have since compensated those affected. The sludge problem hasn't existed for some time. It is a non-issue. Try both and choose the vehicle you are most comfortable with.

Incidentally my 1994 Camry, 4 cyl. has 270,000kms (165,000 miles) and still runs great (touch wood).

solara00 · June 2004

We own a 1994 Camry XLE, a 1997 XLE and a 2000 Solara SLE. All V-6 engines. We have religiously changed the oil every 3000 miles, even though the manual does not call for that. In any case, we have never experienced any sludge (or other) engine problems with any of these 3 cars. I can't say what would have happened if we had waited until 5000 or 7500 miles to change the oil. Maybe we would have had sludge then.

We have had to replace the water pump in the 94 XLE and the hood gas cylinders have gone bad. Other than that, we haven't had much problems with any of these models. (We have experienced the previously noted aliignment problems on the Solara.)

I don't think the sludge issue is an issue if you change oil regularly.

If fact, we just bought an 04 XLE V6 last month based upon our prior experience with Toyota and the Camry model.

lexusguy · June 2004

My wife's RX gets the oil changed at 5,000 miles. No problems.

scoti1 · June 2004

I don't think a cause of sludge was ever determined. Not publicly anyway. The problem still exists in the pre-2002 6-cylinder and 4-cylinder engines. The sludge policy only covers 1997 - 2002 models and includes the Camry, Solara, Avalon, Sienna, Highlander, and Celica plus the Lexus models that have the same engine (ES-300 and RX-300). The problem doesn't seem to be totally based on oil changes, though because I know of some who changed their oil at more frequent intervals who still got sludge. Some people have blamed it on a defective PCV (Toyota changed the PCV design beginning in mid-2002 at the same time the sludge policy was announced). One of the mechanics interviewed in an article at the time the policy came out said he had measured elevated engine head temperatures in the 6-cyl. engine and he thought the high temps were causing the problem. Synthetic oil will provide protection if that is the case.

A 2003 Sienna owner recently reported a sludge problem in the Sienna Problems and Solutions discussion here at Edmunds. This particular owner followed the oil change recommendations in their manual. The repair was covered under the warranty. There are still plenty of reports on the internet about sludge. People usually don't complain if they don't have to pay for the repair, so the ones I have read are usually from people who have been denied coverage under the sludge policy or who are worried about it happening again. I can only assume that there are even more who are getting their engines fixed for free who are not complaining.

rutger3 · June 2004

looking at both cars, here are the differences that ive noticed in equipment: LE vs. LX
Camry has the following items ( Accord doesnt):
-power driver seat
-cassette player
-split folding rear seat
-full size spare
and a few minor items:
-outside temp gauge
-larger trunk
-gas strut to hold hood
Accord has the following (Camry doesn't):
-5 speed auto transmission
-slightly better fuel mileage
Also noticed the following on demographics:
- Accord drivers seem to be a bit younger.
I have a 99 camry with 155k on it and am now looking for something new. Stuck between going with the same car even though I am happy with it, or just a change to the Accord. I like the extra equipment on the camry, but then the Accord did make Car&Drivers top ten, and there is a slight concern about the seats in the camry for long trips. Both are nice cars, tough decision. BTW, it amazes me that Honda doesnt even offer power seats on the EX, and you cant get a cassette player,and an outside temp display is only available on the EX with leather, weird. And dont even get me started on Toyota or Honda when it comes to side airbags. Oh you dont want to get me started.

anonymousposts · June 2004

"And dont even get me started on Toyota or Honda when it comes to side airbags. Oh you dont want to get me started."

All 05 Accords will have side curtain and side airbags srandard.

doctorrocket9 · June 2004

First week with the new Camry SE 6. New car smell has evaporated. Drove it back from Connecticut to Mass. Old Nellie, my 2001 EX v6 Accord is fading from my memory. Liked her a lot, she handled well and gave me a comfortable ride. Couldn't hear the stereo.

I've already stopped noticing the looser feel to the steering wheel in the Camry. The bumps are noticable from time to time, but no biggie. Came home with a trunk full of books, which stopped her from wiggling her rear end on the bad bumps.

Very nice handling, even grins at times. On Judy Collins' My Father, I heard the triangle for the first time in years. Jose Carreras sent chills in La Boheme, and the bass line in Gangsta Paradise sent the chills lower. I passed an Audi 4.2. Smooth, very smooth. Sped up to avoid problems, shifted lanes (with signal, thank you) and slowed seamlessly. At 60-80 it's all quick and easy.

This could be love.

kennyg5 · June 2004

That is why my wife sometimes tells me that my car is my number one wife and she is only my mistress :-) I don't know if other posters hear the same comment from their wives.

lexusguy · June 2004

Lol, are you kidding. We're all in love with our cars. Thats why we're here.

motownusa · June 2004

Toyota is introducing the much anticipated 3.5L V6 engine for the Avalon in MY 2006. It will be nice if that engine found its way under the Camry's hood. It will pump out somewhere between 270 to 275 hp. That should be enough to leave the Accord and Altima in the dust. Although by then I wouldn't be surprised if Nissan comes out with a 300 hp Altima.

venus537 · June 2004

i think cars in this segment have reached their limit in horsepower if they're going to stay FWD. a 300 hp altima would be a joke with its torque steer.

the accord may be less punchy in certain driving conditions than the altima but its drives more smoothly without the dreaded torque steer.

lexusguy · June 2004

270hp is pretty much the absolute limit for FWD. Thats why the RL is AWD, and why the TL will most likely get AWD as well. I wouldnt be surprised to see Maxima get Nissan's ATTESSA system, and if Toyota is serious about that kind of power, they'd pretty much have to go that route as well. Most likely whatever system is going to be in the GS300 AWD would be there.

Motown, if this 3.5L engine is real, its a good bet it will make it into Camry. Toyota is not one to use several different engines. Up until now they've been using their 3.0L (and the 3.3L stop gap engine) in pretty much everything they make, except for the IS\GS which have been using their old Inline which is being retired this year. I would expect that the 3.5L will take over all of Toyota's V6 needs, much like the VQ 3.5L does for Nissan.

bklynguy · June 2004

according to someone (on another forum) who works at TMMK.

lexusguy · June 2004

I assume the "GS300" will actually be a GS350 then?

atlantabenny · June 2004

Here's a list of current-model V6 Toyota cars and car-based vehicles and their engine displacement. Based on the info, what's everyone's opinion on the most likely engine for the 2005 Camry ?

Lexus ES330: 3.3 Liter, upgrade
RX330: 3.3, new
Current & 2006 GS: 3.0, since intro
IS300: 3.0, since intro

Toyota Camry: 3.0, since intro
Solara: 3.3, new
Highlander: 3.3, upgrade

gregoryc1 · June 2004

Did you change your oil and filter frequently? ---(every 3,000 miles)! ----The "sludge issue" developed in vehicles that experienced extended oil and filter changes, as designed by the manufacturer's engineers. You know, the people who are the experts in the field of automotive maintenance!

talon95 · June 2004

And that's irrelevant because the engine design had defects that caused this problem. This includes restricted oil flow to the cylinder as well as temperature differences between the crankcase and cylinder head that substantially exceed accepted design conventions. These issues caused the oil to be abused far beyond the level that it would have been had the engine been properly designed. And even some engines with more frequent than recommended oil changes experienced the sludge problem.

This says absolutely nothing about the validity of recommended oil change intervals for engines without such defects. If you wish to second-guess the designers regarding recommended maintenance, or implement a maintenance schedule that assumes that the engine has a defective design, that's your call, but this whole scenario revolving around significant engine design defects is not validation for these actions.

After all, even the ultra-conservative, "err on the side of caution" people at Consumer Reports call the 3000 mile oil change a myth that's propagated by oil companies and quick lube shops. Their advice is that you follow the recommended schedule from the owners manual.

lexusguy · June 2004

The Camry SE currently offers the 3.3L, and I believe all Camrys (or at least the XLE) are supposed to get it for '05. The 2006 GS may be a 3.5L. Nobody knows. Toyota also may have a 2.5L four for an IS250 when the replacement comes. Most likely as a lower cost TSX fighter.

gregoryc1 · June 2004

QUESTION: ---How come some owners who changed their engine oil and filter frequently, DID NOT have the "sludge issue"? ----- Yes, it could be a temperature issue, but over time the engine oil could deteriorate because of the "excess engine heat", and / or a "drain back problem" in the engine head / block. ----- Extended oil and filter changes are a Joke! Toyota initially blamed this condition on owner neglect,(lack of frequent oil and filter changes). They new right from the start, that extended oil and filter changes were not the way to maintain an engine, and they tried to put the blame on the vehicle owner, but they got caught by their recommendations in the "Book of Toyota", ----(Owner's Manual)!

talon95 · June 2004

"QUESTION: ---How come some owners who changed their engine oil and filter frequently, DID NOT have the "sludge issue"?

Right back at you... QUESTION: Why did some owners who changed their oil more frequently than recommended still fall victim to the sludge issue caused by defective engine design? If your position about the absolute benefits of excessively frequent oil changes was valid, NONE of these frequent changers would have experienced the problem. Yet they did. Case closed.

"Extended oil and filter changes are a Joke! Toyota initially blamed this condition on owner neglect,(lack of frequent oil and filter changes). They new right from the start, that extended oil and filter changes were not the way to maintain an engine, and they tried to put the blame on the vehicle owner, but they got caught by their recommendations in the "Book of Toyota".

That's merely your cynical and baseless interpretation of events that tries (and fails) to spin an exceptional, out of the ordinary situation into proof about normal conditions. And it's total nonsense. Toyota's definition of "lack of frequent oil and filter changes" was that they weren't done as frequently as described in the manual, not that people were negligent because they followed the manual's recommendation. Spin it all you want, but those are the real facts.

And regardless of their initial response, they have since admitted a design defect, and are covering any vehicle that followed recommended oil change intervals. They absolutely do not require that anyone exceed the recommendated oil change intervals in order to get warranty coverage for this defect. So your point is invalid.

QUESTION... Why didn't every owner with a V6 experience a sludge problem? Clearly not all of them changed their oil as frequently as you promote. Anyone who didn't, INCLUDING THOSE WHO USED OBSESSIVELY EXCESSIVE OIL CHANGE INTERVALS, were lucky, pure and simple.

Why you insist on jumping on this bandwagon at every opportunity is a mystery. But this forum is NOT about oil changes, so please move on.

gregoryc1 · June 2004

"Comsumer Reports call the 3,000 mile oil change a myth that's propagated by oil companies and quick lube shops". -----------Questions: -----Do YOU believe everything that is in print? ----Will "Consumer Reports" pick - up the cost of an "oil related repair" on your vehicle, if you follow their recommendations? ----I don't think so! -----Do you base all you maintenance decisions on the advice of other people and / or agencies, or do you do some research, and make your own decisions? ---- The Quick Lube Shops and the oil companies are correct with 3,000 oil and filter changes. Maybe Toyota should have specified a synthetic oil for their engines. Even with synthetic oil, under high heat conditions, it should be changed every 3,000 miles. -----Spend some money on maintenance! ---- Don't try to bring the maintenance war in under budget!

talon95 · June 2004

"Questions: -----Do YOU believe everything that is in print? ----Will "Consumer Reports" pick - up the cost of an "oil related repair" on your vehicle, if you follow their recommendations? ----I don't think so!

No, I don't believe everything I see in print. But given that I don't share with you the extreme cynicism that you express in many of your posts, I will believe a credible source, and Consumer Reports is one such source.

If they were the only ones to make those recommendations, you might have a point. But CR, auto makers and many automotive technical experts say the same thing. Yes, I HAVE done my research and I make my own decisions. And I find those resources to be far more credible than you. And I have every right to do so, and I don't appreciate your insinuation that such decisions make me a fool. Nothing personal, just the way I feel.

gregoryc1 · June 2004

Why can't you just simply exchange opinions. You take my comments very personally! If you do not like my opinion, that is "ok", but don't make it personal!

talon95 · June 2004

OK, as soon as you resort to the tiresome "why do you have to get personal?" card, we're definitely done.

motownusa · June 2004

Chill out!! This is 2004. I believe the only cars that were "affected" where the 1997-2001 MYs. So the sludge issue is not an issue for the Gen V Camrys. Personally, I think the sludge issue has kind of been blown out of proportion. Remember, Toyota sells well over 400,000 Camrys a year. If I remember correctly, the number of documented cases is about 4000 for those years. Since Toyota sold around 2 million of these cars between 1996 and 2002, the chances of any particular car developing sludge is extremely small. It is interesting to note that despite the "problem" the Gen IV Camry still got outstanding reliability rating from Consumer Report and JD Powers. I don't think it has ever been fully determined what caused the engine sludge in a very small percentage of the cars. But I do admire Toyota for accepting some of the responsibility.

scoti1 · June 2004

I think the sludge issue is still important to the car buying public, particularly those looking at used Camry's and the other models that succumb to sludge. I would like to comment on a few of the points you made:

1. We don't know if it is an issue with the 2004 models or not. Toyota never did admit to what caused the problem. They did some modifications to the engines in late 2002, but who knows if that totally fixed the problem? Toyota even said that the modifications would not prevent sludge, just buy some time. And it is time that will tell if the problem has been remedied.

2. The sludge policy is for 1997 - 2002 models (not through 2001 as you state), but I have seen reports of problems in models pre-1997 and post-2002. Go to the Edmunds Sienna Problems and Solutions message board and there is a recent 2003 Sienna owner who followed the manual on oil changes and had sludge. Their engine was fixed under warranty, which is fortunate because the policy does not cover 2003's.

3. There was never a sludge failure rate published. When Toyota first announced the policy in spring 2002, they told the media that they had received around 3,000 - 4,000 "complaints" of sludge -- this is most definitely not a failure rate and should not be interpreted as such. In addition, the number of complaints has never been revised by Toyota since the first announcents. I continue to read about new sludge problems on the internet, so I can say most definitely that the number has grown since 2002. But no one (except Toyota) can even hazard a guess as to how prevalent the problem is. The http://autos.msn site lists the Toyota engines covered by the sludge policy as having significant problems. This rating comes from a group of independent mechanics (i.e., not affiliated with a dealership), so they would only be seeing the repairs not covered by Toyota.

anonymousposts · June 2004

Was not extended oil drains per se. But when you combined it with low use. Like someone who went by the 7500 recommended interval AND only drove 7500 miles a year. Most people who had problems seemed to be those who drove infrequently or short trips. Those people who DROVE I mean 7500 miles in 2-3 months didn't seem to have that problem. But even with changes at 3000 mile intervals, some people had sludge since it took them 6 months to get that far. Do a little research. I was around for the first posts about the sludge in the Camry room a LOOONG time ago.

I agree that it is still important in the used car market. There are a lot of these cars still on the road.

andy71 · June 2004

anonymousposts : you are absolutely right. If a person changes oil every 7500 miles and does it once a year, he is asking for trouble no matter what car he drives. I change my oil at least once every four months (sometimes even sooner than that) or three times a year regardless of how many miles I drive. I own a 2004 Camry SE V6 which has about 4000 miles and a 95 LE V6 which has 110,000 miles and still drives like a new car. I haven't paid a single penny other than routine maintenance. It would interesting to know how many of the competitors cars also have sludge issues.

anonymousposts · June 2004

Didn't seem to have the same problem. At the end of the sludge topics life, there was a conclusion that there wasn't really a problem with the engines really. The problem was with the owners manual that needed to STRESS keeping the oil changes to one interval or another. There was not as much tolerance built into the schedule as there was with nearly every other car on the market. Including other Toyotas. There didn't seem to be an issue with other engine in the Toyota lineup so it was limited to the V6 and 2.3I4.

pat · June 2004

Hey FOLKS!!!

This is not a sludge discussion - there have been plenty of those in dedicated Toyota discussions; we do not need to rehash all of that here.

It's also not a place for two people who will never convince the other that he is wrong to get into it yet again. You two need to learn to ignore each other.

Back to comparing the Accord to the Camry, please. If you must continue on with the sludge issues and whether or not they still matter, do it in a more appropriate venue.

Thank you.

atlantabenny · June 2004

You're right on that Camry variant having the 3.3. Two car publications did mention that the 2006 GS will still have the 3.0 V6 albeit a redesigned one.

motownusa · June 2004

The 3.3L V6 probably won't survive beyond MY 05 when the all new 3.5L makes it debut. Although most publication only says it will be available on the Avalon, doesn't mention the Camry.

Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

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